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Flashback to the 60's: A Sinking Sensation of Parallels Between Iraq & Vie

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:16 AM
Original message
Flashback to the 60's: A Sinking Sensation of Parallels Between Iraq & Vie
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 02:18 AM by NVMojo
t Nam ....

WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 - Not quite 38 years ago, enmeshed in a drawn-out war whose ultimate outcome was deeply in doubt, Lyndon B. Johnson met on Guam with the fractious generals who were contending for leadership of South Vietnam and told them: "My birthday is in late August. The greatest birthday present you could give me is a national election."

George W. Bush's birthday is in early July, but his broad goals for the Iraqi elections on Sunday are much the same as the Johnson administration's in 1967: to confer political legitimacy and credibility on a government that Iraqis themselves will be willing and able to fight to defend, and that American and world public opinion will agree to help nurture.

"I think one lesson is that there be a clear objective that everybody understands," Mr. Bush said in an interview with The New York Times this week, reflecting on the relevance of Vietnam today. "A free, democratic Iraq, an ally in the war on terror, with an Iraqi army, all parts of it - Iraqi forces, army, national guard, border guard, police force - able to defend itself. Secondly, that people understand the connection between that goal and our future."

But the difficulties of achieving such objectives, then and now, have led a range of military experts, historians and politicians to consider the parallels between Vietnam and Iraq to warn of potential pitfalls ahead. Nearly two years after the American invasion of Iraq, such comparisons are no longer dismissed in mainstream political discourse as facile and flawed, but are instead bubbling to the top.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/29/politics/29viet.html?...
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. They must have read Hersh' speach
"Then as now, our soldiers don't see enemies in a battlefield, they just walk on mines or they get shot by snipers, because It's always hidden. There's inevitable anger and rage and you dehumanize the people. We have done that with enormous success in Iraq. They're rag-heads. They're less than human." more...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/26/145...
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Kindigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Look at this page of pictures
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. we planted the seeds for the next generation of terrorists...
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. As I scrolled throught the photos all I could hear in my mind. . .
was Thomas Jefferson's reflection on his generation's responsibility for the evil of slavery:

I tremble when I think that God is just.

Rightfully so, our nation paid its toll for that sin in the slaughter and destruction of the Civil War. What price will we pay for again visiting evil on innocents?. . .
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Seymour Hersh wrote:
"...We're going to learn more and I think you're going to see, it's going to -- it's -- I'm trying to be optimistic. We're going to see a bottom swelling from inside the ranks. You're beginning to see it. What happened with the soldiers asking those questions, you may see more of that. I'm not suggesting we're going to have mutinies, but I'm going to suggest you're going to see more dissatisfaction being expressed. Maybe that will do it..."

What will come after the dissatisfaction and the disillustionment for the soldiers? The drugs.

What will happen here? The protests.

I fear that we're going to end up with yet another generation of physically and emotionally wounded veterans.

God, I hope I'm mistaken.
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aikido15 Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Protests are already happening...
??? haven't you noticed? A global protest is planned for March 19th.

Protesting is necessary. Power of the people to put pressure on the government is what ended the V.N. war. We need to do it again.

www.answercoalition.org for information on March 19th protests worldwide protests.

And yes, this war is already creating drug/alcohol addicted and homeless veterans.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Comparing Iraq & Vietnam now university final assignment.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 04:18 AM by LynnTheDem
"...graduate course at Georgetown University on Vietnam. His students' final assignment this year is to assess the parallels and dissimilarities between Iraq and Vietnam."

***

And all who saw this coming over 2 years ago (and no, freepers, it was never "just liberals") aren't looking quite so "saddam-lover anti-American unpatriotic treasonous haters" now. More like the "elite" the morans keep mentioning, IF by "elite" one means NOT the stupidest MFers on the planet.

WOW! And they even mentioned the fact that freeps will hate;

"It is easy enough to catalogue all the important differences - some of them obvious, others less so - between Vietnam and Iraq. For one thing, American involvement in Vietnam began with more public support and greater agreement among the military, the government, the media and academia that fighting communism in Southeast Asia was a worthy goal. Precisely because of the Vietnam experience, the current war in Iraq began in spite of considerable domestic doubt about its wisdom and necessity.

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aikido15 Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. The similarities...
are frightening.

Tiger cages, tens of thousands of V.N. prisoners of war tortured and murdered=Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan (missing rebels captured suspected to be in mass grave site) and Gitmo...
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. When does the FRAGGING start?
Morbid Joke From Viet Nam #6250:

Q: What's the life expectancy of a Second Lieutenant in Nam?
A: Four seconds. From the time his foot leaves the plane until it almost touches the ground.

:freak:
dbt
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. The Nation was divided over Vietnam as it is today over Iraq
and there were the rabid ones with the bumper stickers "US Love it or Leave it." or the stars and stripes with "love it or leave it".

Driving the Bay Area freeways I saw so many of those stickers -- to some people disagreement with the government's policies was treason (sound familiar??).

Yet at the same time I was going to school with Vets who had been over there -- and I can't remember a single Vet who supported the war. And my father had also served (he retired from the Navy) and he saw no point in the war and was aware that the Government and military brass was lying to the American people.

We've been down this road before --

The draft drew the protests in the beginning -- there was a major induction center in Oakland and the protests started there in the mid 60s and spread to the college campuses. RayGun hated college students -- he blamed us for the anti-war movement. But my gut feeling is that the returning Veterans as they shared their experiences about the reality of what was happening in the war on the people of Vietnam were the ones who convinced the college students that the war was wrong.

As long as bushie and gang can avoid the draft I don't think there will be wide spread opposition to the war -- the opinion polls will register opposition but the DRAFT will mobilize the people.

I remember in high school some of the guys were gung ho war -- until they reached draft age. Several apologized to me for giving me such a hard time for being against the war -- I was the lone voice. Although now some classmates act as if they were anti-war in high school -- and yet I remember that they were the very ones who called me a traitor. (Try being anti-war at a high school right next to a military base, where most of the kids in school are military brats and you yourself live on the military base.)

The Vietnam era was NOT a good time for the Nation. During this time US Citizens were not very popular overseas either.
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SCRUBDASHRUB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Those freeper MF's should be forced to look at those heartbreaking
pictures of the children of Iraq. Of course, it wouldn't change their minds. Their hearts are stone cold.

So sad. This sounds trite, but we have no damn reason to be there.
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