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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:47 AM
Original message
NYT: To Avoid Divorce, Move To Massachusetts
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/weekinreview/14pamb.h...

<snip>

To Avoid Divorce, Move to Massachusetts
By PAM BELLUCK

Published: November 14, 2004


BOSTON If blue states care less about moral values, why are divorce rates so low in the bluest of the blue states? It's a question that intrigues conservatives, as much as it emboldens liberals.

As researchers have noted, the areas of the country where divorce rates are highest are also frequently the areas where many conservative Christians live.

Kentucky, Mississippi and Arkansas, for example, voted overwhelmingly for constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage. But they had three of the highest divorce rates in 2003, based on figures from the Census Bureau and the National Center for Health Statistics.

The lowest divorce rates are largely in the blue states: the Northeast and the upper Midwest. And the state with the lowest divorce rate was Massachusetts, home to John Kerry, the Kennedys and same-sex marriage.

<snip>
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, I for one am not surprised by this information.
Red staters tend to be hypocritical. Not the blues that live in red states, just the red staters that vote repug.
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nine23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fairly obvious, really...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:07 PM by nine23
When they get up the next morning after a night of "God's just being randy", they have to actually look at themselves.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good article!
I especially like the ending paragraphs:

Ms. Whitehead, who lives in Amherst, Mass., said that New England is a region that has "more stability" than other regions. "People stay here, their families stay here, and there's more social and family support for people, a more communal versus individualistic culture in New England compared to the cowboy states."

She said religion may underscore those regional differences.

"In states with lots of evangelicals, the more individualistic Protestant religious faiths may actually also encourage more go-it-alone attitudes than communal ones," Ms. Whitehead said. And these are also states where the culture encourages sexual abstinence before marriage, she said.

"If your family or religious culture urges you not to have sex before you get married," she said, "then one answer is to get married, and then you're more likely to divorce."
(my emphasis)

Liberal values ARE the best values!

sw

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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I wonder how many divorces could be blamed on Laura Schlessinger
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:09 PM by Godlesscommieprevert
Who daily preaches on her radio show that people who want to sleep together have got to get married first - despite the fact that she has a less than pure history herself, nudge nudge, wink wink.
Imagine going through a marriage and finding out on your wedding night that your new spouse is polar opposites from you in the sex dept. And here's the kicker, you're not supposed to get divorced either according to good ol' Dr. Laura.
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nine23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. "faiths may actually also encourage more go-it-alone attitudes"
Just a thought: Perhaps they're, umm...obsessive wankers?
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bluedeminredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. LOL!
Thank you for that very loud chuckle. :)
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Blue State/Liberal Values are the ONLY VALUES THAT WORK!
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namvet73 Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. A certain actress...
whose name I won't mention, didn't believe in premarital, so she married each of the numerous people she had sex with and then dumped them for the next.

I guess that keeps things "holy."
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Its that LYING, LIBREAL NYT RAG again
nt
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. I would love to see this correlated to...
teenage pregnancy, lack of adequate sex ed and birthcontrol

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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Me too...
but I'm sure that we know how that would turn out ;)
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Here you go...abortion stats/states
From www.statehealthfacts.org

Notice what states are listed 2 and 3...both Bush governed states in the year 2000.


From the year 2000: # of abortions:

United States 857,475


1 New York 129,678

2 Florida 88,563

3 Texas 76,121

4 Illinois 45,884

5 Ohio 38,140

6 Pennsylvania 35,630

7 New Jersey 33,026

8 Georgia 31,678

9 North Carolina 30,157

10 Virginia 27,999

11 Massachusetts 27,180

12 Michigan 26,807

13 Washington 25,692

14 Tennessee 17,479

15 Minnesota 14,468

16 Oregon 14,194

17 Alabama 13,553

18 Connecticut 12,908

19 Maryland 12,337

20 Indiana 12,272

21 Kansas 12,225

22 Louisiana 11,384

23 Wisconsin 11,040

24 Arizona 10,064

25 Missouri 7,884

26 South Carolina 7,527

27 Oklahoma 7,182

28 District of Columbia 6,659

29 Nevada 5,972

30 Iowa 5,747 1

31 Arkansas 5,501

32 New Mexico 5,465

33 Rhode Island 5,413

34 Delaware 5,082

35 Kentucky 4,630

36 Colorado 4,215

37 Nebraska 4,178

38 Hawaii 3,941

39 Mississippi 3,758

40 Utah 3,509

41 West Virginia 2,549

42 Maine 2,536

43 Montana 2,441

44 Vermont 1,781

45 North Dakota 1,341

46 South Dakota 878

47 Idaho 801

48 Wyoming 6

Alaska NA 2

California NA 2

New Hampshire NA 2


Notes: As data are reported voluntarily by providers to state or area health departments, information may be incomplete and result in undercounting abortions when calculating rates and ratios in some states.
Abortions by state of occurrence include abortions obtained by non-residents of the state as well as those obtained by residents.


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candy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Total number is meaningless---we need percentages.------
My search skills are awful or I would get the info-----Thanks for your post,though.
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Teen birth #'s from 2002/state
United States 445,944


1 California 53,007

2 Texas 52,782

3 Florida 24,217

4 New York 20,012

5 Illinois 19,758

6 Georgia 17,279

7 Ohio 17,034

8 North Carolina 14,336

9 Pennsylvania 13,567

10 Michigan 13,457

11 Arizona 11,653

12 Tennessee 10,838

13 Louisiana 10,373

14 Indiana 10,109

15 Virginia 9,439

16 Missouri 9,317

17 Alabama 8,820

18 South Carolina 7,901

19 New Jersey 7,693

20 Washington 7,517

21 Oklahoma 7,476

22 Mississippi 7,340

23 Colorado 7,169

24 Kentucky 7,120

25 Wisconsin 6,775

26 Maryland 6,756

27 Arkansas 5,941

28 Minnesota 5,240

29 Massachusetts 4,984

30 Oregon 4,820

31 New Mexico 4,529

32 Kansas 4,472

33 Utah 3,884

34 Nevada 3,677

35 Iowa 3,574

36 Connecticut 3,081

37 West Virginia 2,683

38 Nebraska 2,393

39 Idaho 2,203

40 Hawaii 1,672

41 Delaware 1,259

42 Montana 1,258

43 Rhode Island 1,236

44 Maine 1,215

45 South Dakota 1,148

46 Alaska 1,056

47 District of Columbia 981

48 New Hampshire 914

49 Wyoming 782

50 North Dakota 673

51 Vermont 524




Puerto Rico 10,334

Guam 426

Virgin Islands 264
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Woohoo! California is back in the lead!
At least in one category other than great weather. :)

Gyre
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Find some per capita statistics
It's no surprise that the states with the highest population have the most of *everything*. What would be more interesting would be to see the total numbers divided by the population of the state.

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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Okey-dokey..here ya go
Too long to cut and paste stuff so you will need to go to these links and explore. The last link has a "per 1,000" table with the states...don't know if this is what you all are looking for:


http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/state_ab_pt.html


http://www.agi-usa.org/sections/abortion.html


http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/state_pregnancy_trends.pdf
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JusticeForAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. It's Exactly what we are looking for
Sorry for the crappy spacing... Here are Teen Pregnancy figures per 1000. Except for CA the whole top ten is red....huh. Rank is first number, per 1000 is second number


Nevada 1 113
Arizona 2 104
Mississippi 3 103
NewMexico 4 103
Texas 5 101
Florida 6 97
California 7 96
Georgia 8 95
NorthCarolina 9 95
Arkansas 10 93
Delaware 11 93
Hawaii 12 93
Maryland 13 91
NewYork 14 91
Alabama 15 90
NewJersey 16 90
SouthCarolina 17 89
Tennessee 18 89
Louisiana 19 87
Illinois 20 87
Oklahoma 21 86
Colorado 22 82
Oregon 23 79
Wyoming** 24 77
Kentucky 25 76
Washington 26 75
Michigan 27 75
Ohio 28 74
Missouri 29 74
Alaska 30 73
Indiana 31 73
Virginia 32 72
Connecticut 33 70
Kansas 34 69
WestVirginia 35 67
RhodeIsland 36 67
Idaho 37 62
Montana 38 60
Pennsylvania 39 60
Massachusetts 40 60
Nebraska 41 59
Wisconsin 42 55
Iowa 43 55
SouthDakota 44 54
Utah 45 53
Maine 46 52
Minnesota 47 50
NewHampshire 48 47
Vermont 49 44
NorthDakota 50 42
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'm wondering how these numbers correlate with education level
Girls dropping out of high school to get married due to pregnancy, continuing a pattern of poverty, unable to save to provide a good education for their children. Hopelessness leads to a desire to escape one's circumstances and the idea of marriage is still a fairy tale to the young and inexperienced.

And another thing, I wonder what the child abuse rate is and how that correlates with teenage pregnancies. Many young women will do anything to escape an abusive home. Sadly, a lot of those young women end up right back at home because they "escaped" an abusive father and married an abusive husband.

I think this thread is worth exploring because we need to debunk once and for all the mythical moral superiority of neochristians. They can talk the talk, but their walk is a little crooked, eh?
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. $1.5Billion
Yet, Bush wants to tell these girls/woman all their problems will be solved if they just MARRY the fathers of their kids. Shotgun weddings didn't work 50 years ago what makes him think they will NOW? Try getting an EDUCATION and JOB SKILLS instead.
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JusticeForAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Exactly (Part II)
These are the abortion rates. As expected, more blue states are at the top. First number is rank second is per 1000 of population

NewJersey 1 47
NewYork 2 46
Maryland 3 38
Nevada 4 36
California 5 36
Hawaii 6 34
Florida 7 33
Delaware 8 31
Connecticut 9 30
Illinois 10 27
Massachusetts 11 26
Washington 12 26
Oregon 13 25
Wyoming** 14 25
Michigan 15 24
RhodeIsland 16 23
NorthCarolina 17 22
NewMexico 18 22
Arizona 19 21
Virginia 20 21
Colorado 21 19
Georgia 22 18
Pennsylvania 23 17
SouthCarolina 24 17
NewHampshire 25 17
Texas 26 17
Ohio 27 17
Mississippi 28 16
Tennessee 29 16
Alabama 30 16
Maine 31 15
Montana 32 14
Vermont 33 14
Missouri 34 14
Alaska 35 14
Minnesota 36 13
Oklahoma 37 12
Indiana 38 12
Kansas 39 12
Nebraska 40 12
Arkansas 41 12
Iowa 42 12
Wisconsin 43 12
Louisiana 44 11
Idaho 45 10
WestVirginia 46 10
Kentucky 47 8
NorthDakota 48 8
SouthDakota 49 7
Utah 50 6
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. marrying young is dumb!
Sorry but I think that it is cultural...

In the bible thumping families of the North and South marriage is pushed because sex outside marriage is a sin...so a lot of kids get married young and then find out it sucks because they hadn't yet developed as a person and they find themselves 27 or 30 and they are married to someone that was "cool" for 19 but not so cool as a 32 year old...


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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Yes here we see the benefits of 'try before you buy' n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. But, but, but they voted for moral values and we didn't
Anybody else seeing the irony here or is this just me and is irony dead in this country?

BTW, someday I may actually think of a move to Massachusets, if it wasn't because I like the waether down where I am (no not in a Red State, or I would be considering moving and FAST)
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restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. yeah. Interesting how the blue states have lower divorce rates
Maybe if the red state bible thumping hypocrites paid attention to their own marriages instead of trying to legislate everyone else's "morality," they would have a lower divorce rate, too.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. Better drivers, too
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:59 PM by TahitiNut
How many divorces are caused by lousy driving? :dunce:

Motor Vehicle Deaths per 100 Million Miles Driven, 2002

Montana 2.6
Mississippi 2.4
South Carolina 2.2
West Virginia 2.2
Arizona 2.1
Arkansas 2.1
Louisiana 2.1
Florida 2.0
Nevada 2.0
South Dakota 2.0
Wyoming 2.0
Idaho 1.9
Kentucky 1.9
New Mexico 1.9
Alaska 1.8
Kansas 1.8
Alabama 1.7
Colorado 1.7
Missouri 1.7
Nebraska 1.7
North Carolina 1.7
Tennessee 1.7
Texas 1.7
Oklahoma 1.6

Pennsylvania 1.5
Delaware 1.4

Georgia 1.4
Utah 1.4
Wisconsin 1.4
California 1.3
Hawaii 1.3
Illinois 1.3

Iowa 1.3
Maine 1.3
Michigan 1.3

North Dakota 1.3
Maryland 1.2
Minnesota 1.2

Ohio 1.2
Oregon 1.2
Virginia 1.2
Washington 1.2
Indiana 1.1
New Jersey 1.1
New York 1.1
Connecticut 1.0
New Hampshire 1.0
Rhode Island 1.0
Massachusetts 0.9
Vermont 0.8
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. That's a fascinating chart
so, you wanna kill yourself in a car wreck or suffer the emotional devastation of divorce.....

move to a red state!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I'd say the rates understate the recklessness, too.
When you consider the lower population densities of the 'red' states and, especially the southern 'red' states, the generally better driving conditions ... it's somewhat amazing to me that the 'red' state rednecks are killing each other on the highway at these comparable rates.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. Child death rate, too
Child Death Rate per 100,000 Population, 2001

Mississippi 35
Alaska 34
Louisiana 33
South Dakota 33
Oklahoma 31
Alabama 30
Arkansas 30
Arizona 29
Wyoming 29
Kentucky 28
Montana 28
Georgia 27
South Carolina 26
Idaho 25
New Mexico 25
Kansas 24
Missouri 24
Texas 24
Florida 23
Iowa 23
Nebraska 23
Tennessee 23
Colorado 22

Delaware 22
Illinois 22
Indiana 22
Maryland 22
Michigan 22
Nevada 22
North Carolina 22
West Virginia 21
Wisconsin 21
New Hampshire 20
Pennsylvania 20
Utah 20
Ohio 19
Vermont 19
California 18
New York 18
Oregon 18
Virginia 18
Washington 18
Minnesota 17
North Dakota 17
Hawaii 16
Maine 16
Massachusetts 15
Rhode Island 15
Connecticut 14
New Jersey 14
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. How does this correlate to household income?
Poverty puts a lot of stress on marriages.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. Teen Death Rate, too!
Rate of Teen Deaths by Accident, Homicide, and Suicide per 100,000 Population, 2001

Alaska 75
Arkansas 74
Alabama 72
Idaho 72
Louisiana 71
Mississippi 69
Missouri 69
Oklahoma 69
South Carolina 68
Arizona 66
Kansas 65
Tennessee 65
Wyoming 65
Georgia 62
North Carolina 62
New Mexico 59
Colorado 58
Kentucky 57
Indiana 56
Maine 56
Maryland 56
South Dakota 56
Texas 54
West Virginia 54
Delaware 53
Illinois 52
Florida 51
Nevada 50
North Dakota 49
Pennsylvania 49
Nebraska 48
Iowa 47
Wisconsin 47
Michigan 46
Virginia 46
Utah 44
Montana 43
Washington 43
Ohio 42
Oregon 41
Connecticut 40
New Hampshire 40
California 39
Hawaii 39
Minnesota 39
Vermont 38
New York 35
Massachusetts 32
Rhode Island 31
New Jersey 29
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
32. Great. Let Bush trash Massachusetts, then refute it...
AFTER the election. thanks media...
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
33. Turn it around and it makes sense.
Maybe some of the red staters vote conservative on these issues to get control of _themselves_. No mystery there. What's mysterious about a cancer patient voting against cancer -- or what he/she thinks is cancer?

It's not hypocrisy. It's desperation, ignorance, and pain.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. New Yorker
I have been researching this since I have a personal interest in it. It is HARDER to get a divorce in NY than in FLORIDA. Florida has No Fault and New York DOESN'T. You have to show GROUNDS in NY, like Adultery, etc., or, have a Legal Separation of at least one year. Florida? NOTHING.

As far as the abortion rate, NY put right to abortion into the State Consitution years before Rove v Wade. Cannot remember exact year(1972?), but many women able to afford it used to come here from other states.

DOMA failed to pass 4 times here. From everything I have read on subject, NY marriage law is under the Health Code which does not specifically say man and woman, but spouses or bride and groom. I know my marriage license says bride and groom, not man and woman.

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I had a conservative friend who collected unemployment insurance plenty
He was always angling to quit a job and get on unemployment insurance, but at the same time he would rail against the very existence of unemployment insurance. The "argument" was basically that if the program didn't exist, he wouldn't give into the temptation, so it is really liberals' fault, not his. It was a sweet bit of hypocrisy - take advantage of something while you claim to be against it. I think a lot of this kind of rationalization goes on. It is difficult to debate such "reasoning".
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peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. twisted logic via Bill Bennett.need more shotgun weddings
baby factories are the answer..love and happiness is irrelevant.no wonder he spends so much time in a casino.

http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/webfeatures/2001...

Confronting the Census numbers also made Bill Bennett come down with a case of nostalgia. Enough with these selfish career moms who raise two kids on a heavy dose of daycare and Teletubbies, concluded Bennett. We need to bring back large families -- with "six or seven" children -- and another venerable tradition, the shotgun wedding. Couples that are pressed into marriage after a pregnancy are more likely to stay together than people who get married voluntarily, he asserted. Did he ever wonder if the same forces that coerced the pair to wed in the first place -- the proverbial "shotgun" -- also prevents miserable couples from getting divorced? Maybe he doesn't care as long as the marriage stays intact. When Matthews, a little shocked, asked, "how many dishes flew through the air during those marriages?" Bennett blithely replied: "I don't know. Most dishes are not fatal . . . Compare that to the damage of divorce."

To Bennett's disappointment, the government can't legislate compulsory marriage, but that hasn't stopped some states from trying. Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee declared a "marital emergency" in his state two years ago, and last month signed a bill that creates a stricter form of marriage license that would require couples to sit out a two-year waiting period before finalizing a divorce. In an editorial about the latest Census numbers, the Deseret Newsin Salt Lake City advocates such "covenant" marriages as a solution to the disappearance of the nuclear family. (Ironically, The New York Times reports that the divorce rate in the Bible Belt -- the only states conservative enough to champion covenant marriages -- is "roughly 50 percent above the national average.")


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