Civilian cost of battle for Falluja emerges

[pinkpops]

From the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1350926,00....


The horrific conditions for those who remained in the city have begun to emerge in the last 24 hours as it became clear that US military claims of 'precision' targeting of insurgent positions were false.

According to one Iraqi journalist who left Falluja on Friday, some of the civilian injuries were caused by the massive firepower directed on to city neighbourhoods during the battle.

'If the fighters fire a mortar, US forces respond with huge force,' said the journalist, who asked not to be named.

[mike_c]

1. collective punishment of civilians is another U.S. war crime....

Preventing access to food and water fits under the same umbrella.

[Darranar]

37. So much for upholding the "rule of law" and all of that. n/t

[getoffmytrain]

2. Any civilian casualty

is a great tragedy... hopefully as many left the town as possible during the window given by the coalition forces... and hopefully, the non-combatant men between the ages of 15-55 found good cover. War is a nasty business... generally speaking, the US fights it cleaner than any army in history.

[NorthernSpy]

3. but when other people attack us, we don't call it a "tragedy"

We call it a crime.

Any civilian casualty is a great tragedy... hopefully as many left the town as possible during the window given by the coalition forces... and hopefully, the non-combatant men between the ages of 15-55 found good cover. War is a nasty business... generally speaking, the US fights it cleaner than any army in history.

In other words, blahblahblahwe'restillwonderfulwhocares.

[getoffmytrain]

5. Reality.

A fact of war is, civilians die in warfare, though tragic it is... any soldier from any army intentionally killing civilians is guilty of a war crime...

[Politicub]

13. Reality is that the US is responsible for genocide

Open your eyes. "War" is a fig leaf word that does cover the injustice that is being perpetraded in Iraq.

Thought war may be an abstract concept to you, to the Iraqis it is completely real.

[jpak]

26. 600 civilians died in Falluja during the "limited" incursion in April

How many were killed this week???

1000?

2000?

All for a pack George Bush lies...

Does anyone here have a fucking clue today????

[pinkpops]

27. The reality is that the US has the big bombs, is capable of

some real terror. Since we consider "our" guys lives to be of higher value than innocent civilians, it is OK for us to attack with blunt weapons when threatened. It is, in essence a cowardly way to fight.

[bvar22]

41. The Iraqis in Fallujah DID NOT THREATEN us!

The puppet government installed by bush* may be threatened by the Iraqi Resistance, but those guys in no way threaten the USA. What are they gonna do to us?

The US soldiers dying in Iraq are NOT DEFENDING THE USA. They are dying to protect Corporate Profits from the bush* scheme to privitize Iraq!

[Bonobo]

44. This is NOT "warfare". Even we admit that. Please don't call it "warfare"

We call them terrorists, not soldiers. So this cannot by definition be "war". Please be consistent at least.

[getoffmytrain]

48. Of course this

is warfare, it's a largely a guerrilla war. I believe they are 'insurgents' or 'rebels'. I do not boradly paint them as terrorists, though there is a terrorist element operating amongst the insurgency... which are those that perpetrate the suicide bombings and the beheadings.

I have been very consistent in my labeling of the insurgency as just that... the insurgency, that is, unless I am speaking of the terrorist element.

Warfare:

The waging of war against an enemy; armed conflict.
Military operations marked by a specific characteristic: guerrilla warfare; chemical warfare.
A state of disharmony or conflict; strife: constant spousal warfare in the household.
Acts undertaken to destroy or undermine the strength of another: political warfare.

[LynnTheDem]

56. INVASION. Worse than a "war", this is an INVASION by the USA.

For NOTHING but total bullshit LIES, POLITICS and corporate profits.

[Mira]

11. We USED TO BE the good guys

[lindashaw]

36. Not anymore. No one can be a good soldier in a bad war.

[ScrewyRabbit]

6. A 500 lb bomb isn't as precise as you'd like

in an urban area.

But the thrust of your argument is that civilian casualties are unavoidable. So presumably they're justified if the cause is just. Oh wait -- why are we in Iraq?

[UpInArms]

10. see my post #8

those are 2,000 pound bombs.

[ScrewyRabbit]

17. You're right of course

my only point was that air power just isn't a precise weapon in a densely populated urban area. It's precise enough to destroy whatever it was you were trying to destroy, and not precise enough to avoid killing everyone else on the block, too.

[UpInArms]

8. here's some "precision" bombing

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/14/iraq.main /

excerpt:

It's unclear how many civilians have been killed or wounded in the airstrikes or heavy ground battles that have gripped the city. Military officials said at least 14 civilians were wounded.

Overnight, U.S. forces dropped bunker-busting bombs on an underground complex used by insurgents, military officials said Sunday.

The Air Force -- working with Task Force 2-2 of the U.S. Army's 1st Infantry Division -- dropped four 2,000-pound bombs and ordered C-130 air strikes, firing more than 100 rounds at the complex in southeastern Falluja. Military officials said the site was stocked with medical and other supplies, and may be as large as 400 meters by 300 meters (1,300 feet by 1,000 feet) and lined with tunnels.

...more...

[Darranar]

20. Um, not quite...

there's nothing "clean" about razing hospitals, leveling civilian houses, bombing mosques, denying humanitarian aid, shooting at ambulances, and using disproportionate force in population centers....

Not to mention the fact that this attack was unjustified and will accomplish nothing.

[RyomaSakamoto]

25. we seized their hospitals first, hello

and cut off water, food and medicine and refused to allow ambulances and doctors access to the wounded and you think thats a clean fight

we nuked a DEFEATED trying to surrender nations cities filled with innocent civilians, men women and children, TWICE.

i think you might need to bone up on our history to have that ignorant opinion.

[getoffmytrain]

28. More people would have died had

we invaded the mainland of Japan, in fact, it's believed that the USA would have suffered 500,000~ casualties in an invasion of Japan... no telling how many Japanese would've been killed, but I digress.

Considering it is your opinion that the USA military is bad, would you care to list for me the compassionate armies of the world we should model ourselves after?

Would it be, Russia's? No you say...

How about China's? Still no?

hmmmm... India? Pakistan? Britain? What nation, RyomaSakamoto, possesses an all enlightened army? Perhaps, in your view, that of France in WW2?


Yes, we seized the hospital, plenty of armies would've blown it up.

[RyomaSakamoto]

33. propaganda

it wasn't necessary and all military leaders in theater though so at the time so excuse me if i got with their opinion over some anonymous INTERNET posters.

* In his memoirs Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Stimson informed him the atomic bomb would be used:

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. . . . (THE DECISION, p. 4.)

* In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:

The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

In being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. (THE DECISION, p. 3.)

more...
http://www.doug-long.com/ga1.htm

“The only thing new in the world is
the history you don’t know.”. Harry S. Truman


fyi: i didn't say the us military is 'bad' i pointed out that we have behaved badly in the past and present at times.

"Yes, we seized the hospital, plenty of armies would've blown it up."

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | US strikes raze Falluja hospital
US strikes raze Falluja hospital. The hospital was run by an Islamic charity. ... Hospital
officials quoted by Reuters news agency say all the contents were ruined. ...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3988433.stm

[getoffmytrain]

35. Why did Japan not surrender if they were beat

before we dropped the first bomb... Secondly, why, pray tell, did they not immediately surrender after the first one was dropped?

We can trade quotes back and forth, all day long of people in theatre and in leadership roles making their case for dropping the atom bomb, or not doing so.

The fact is, Japan DID NOT SURRENDER until they were nuked, twice...

[RyomaSakamoto]

38. once their 1 condition was met, they surrendered

and the longest uninterrupted symbolic head-of-state remains to this very day as witness to the wise decision to finally accept their 1 condition.

the unbearable sadness comes when thinking about how many would have lived if we had accepted earlier.



btw: EVERY military leader in theater at that time was against the IDEA, hello...

http://www.doug-long.com/ga1.htm

[acmavm]

45. This isn't Japan and we were never never never ever attacked by

the Iraqi people.

There is no, none, nihil, nada, zip, justification for what we've done in Falluja. NONE.

How would you like to see your fellow countryman, your family member gunned down by an occupational force who's only reason for being in your country is to prop an equally unjust and unelected government who's just a puppet of the country that invaded you in the first frigging place? And the leader of that government is one of the men that brought the 'evil dictator' into power in the first place.

Spin this crap any way you want, this is a war crime.

[Bonobo]

46. Please don't haul out that tired old tripe. It's Eisenhower-era propaganda

Numbingly simplistic, jingoistic, racist crap. The Japanese civilians would not have fought by the millions with bamboo spears. They are people with families too. Dehumanize them all you want by pretending they were non-human Emperor worshiping robots, if you like. But the fact is, that even if there had been "bamboo spear" resistance, it was unlikely to do much damage to invading US forces.

"To repel the invasion, Japan had almost two million troops under arms, while more millions of civilians were being trained to kill the invaders, with guns, explosive charges strapped to their bodies, and even bamboo spears.

Thousands of planes and midget submarines were being produced by the Japanese for suicide missions. Death was preferable to surrender. Both sides were considering using poison gas and weapons of germ warfare. Had the invasion taken place, it would have prolonged the war by a year and a half, turned Japan into a wasteland, and cost the lives of possibly hundreds of thousands of Americans and millions of Japanese. It would have been the bloodiest and most bitterly fought battle of any war in history."

-Why Truman Dropped the Bomb on Japan
Norman Polmar

My simple question is: If there was such a powerful feeling of resistance, do you really believe it would be so easily evaporated by even the Emperor saying "don't fight". Do you believe than, for example, that if Al Sistani were to tell his followers to suddenly stop their resistance to foreign invasion that they actually would!? Japan had a 2000 year history of resisting foreign invasion! They were as arrogant as any Muslim fundamentalist. But all of a sudden the atomic bombs being dropped on them wiped away all their resistance. Don't be ridiculous.

[LynnTheDem]

57. BULLSHIT. You REALLY need to read up on the REAL U.S. history

Coz you are so stuck into the RIGHTWING BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA re WWII and US nuking Japan. Your "500,000 casualties" is pure total absolute bullshit. Want links, or do you know how to do online searches?

We're just as dirty as any other nation has ever been at war, and this isn't a war, it's an INVASION.

WAR CRIMES are WAR CRIMES. PERIOD.

[NCN007]

29. this is probably for another discussion

but its incredibly naive to think that the use of nuclear weapons in WWII was anything but tragically the best course of action. Japan was not trying to surrender, if you knew anything about the samauri warrior ethos that influenced the imperial leadership (the way the John Wayne warrior ethos influences ours today) you would know that their sense of honor prevents admissions of defeat. The alternative to Nuclear weapons would have been an invasion of the Japanese home islands, something which would have cost both sides far more dearly than than those two weapons.

[getoffmytrain]

30. How dare you

be logical and factual when discussing armed conflict in LBN or GD, you're suppose to put on your blinders and scream.... "America = war criminals!!!!!" Get with the program please.

[RyomaSakamoto]

32. BS

all our military leaders in theater at the time KNEW it wasn't necessary and that not only was she defeated she was trying to surrender.

* In his memoirs Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Stimson informed him the atomic bomb would be used:

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. . . . (THE DECISION, p. 4.)

* In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:

The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

In being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. (THE DECISION, p. 3.)

more...
http://www.doug-long.com/ga1.htm

“The only thing new in the world is
the history you don’t know.”. Harry S. Truman

[tedzbear]

34. Truman used the bomb as a warning to Stalin...

...not as a strategic weapon against Japan.

[RyomaSakamoto]

39. our first SHOCK-n-AWE to the WORLD

[Bonobo]

47. So we occupied Japan after WWII ended, but we never "invaded" them?

Interesting distinction. Is it relevant? 2 nuclear bombs on civilian cities? Wow, I'm pretty sure I'm not intended to be in any political group you would care to organize. You really seriously advocate the dropping of that? Oh yeah, Pearl Harbor....right. I remember. Totally unjustified for them to have attacked a military target without telling us first. Sorry.

[LynnTheDem]

58. BULLSHIT.

Again, stop with the RIGHTWING PROPAGANDA CRAP.

The ACTUAL FACTS are very easy to find; they always have been.

GEEEEZ how can Americans still be so damned IGNORANT???!!

Well, at least the poll done last year showed the MAJORITY of Americans know that nuking Japan WAS NOT NECESSARY and was the WRONG THING TO DO.

Took a few decades, and obviously some Americans are still totally ignorant of the FACTS...

"...contrary to the conventional wisdom, there is very little evidence that top U.S. military leaders at the time believed that the atomic bomb was needed to end the war without a costly invasion. Indeed, quite the opposite appears to be true.

Adm. William D. Leahy, President Truman's chief of staff and the man who presided over meetings of both the U.S. chiefs of staff and the combined U.S.-British chiefs of staff, minced few words. Seven weeks before Hiroshima, his diary shows that he believed that the war could be ended in a manner that achieved all U.S. security aims.

Among the many other top World War II leaders who are on record as stating that the bomb was unnecessary are the commanding general of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. ''Hap'' Arnold; Fleet Adm. Chester W. Nimitz, commander-in-chief of the Pacific Fleet; Adm. William F. Halsey Jr., commander of the U.S. Third Fleet; and the famous ''hawk'' who commanded the 21st Bomber Command, Maj. Gen. Curtis E. LeMay.

In his memoirs, President -- and former general -- Dwight D. Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Henry Stimson informed him that the atomic bomb would be used: ''During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression, and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.''

In a 1963 interview, he put it bluntly: `` it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing.''

http://www.commondreams.org/scriptfiles/views03/1214-06...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

51. It's not a war

It's an invasion.

An occupation.

A miscarriage of justice.

A war crime.

But it's not a war.

And nothing about this travesty is clean.

[Branjor]

4. Does anyone have the link

to the pictures of civilian casualties in Iraq?

[Judi Lynn]

7. Is this what you're thinking of?

There are 20 seperate pages at this site:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page5.htm

[UpInArms]

14. thanks, JudiLyn

for the link

[Judi Lynn]

18. Damned unbearable to witness, too, isn't it? So sad. n/t

[leftchick]

24. Thanks JudiLyn

I feel like making flyers with these and putting them on every car I see with a "pro-life" bumpersticker!

[Clovis Sangrail]

42. well then... do it

I feel like making flyers with these and putting them on every car I see with a "pro-life" bumpersticker!

if it makes 1 person think, it'll be worth it....
(and it'll make you feel good)

[Darranar]

9. This is disgusting and criminal...

what is being done to this Iraqi city has no justification.

[Deja Q]

12. If we're a 'culture of life', why are we so haphazard about protecting it?

Unless we're a bacteria culture, in which case it doesn't matter.

This doesn't bode well for the US, especially with a majority-for-* win (while there have been signs of electronic machine issues, adding them up won't change things and * still had won the popular vote anyway.)

[Magleetis]

15. How can this be?

our pres. is pro-life and he was re-elected because we are the country of moral values. There is no correlation between what are govt says and how they act. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

[WeShallWinMore]

16. Strange. Why would the journalist refuse to be named?

That makes no sense at all. If the story is accurate why in the hell would a journalist not want credit for it? Ideas?

[Briar]

19. He's afraid of retaliation

Both the US army and Allawi are insisting there are no civilian casualties. Since they have either destroyed or occupied the hospitals, they can maintain that lie.

[prolesunited]

21. Perhaps because more than 100 journalists

have died in the past year. Several have been killed be U.S. soldiers and bombs have gone off near their HQ. Just a thought.

What do you think? Is the reporter lying?

[Judi Lynn]

22. Presumably you're unaccustomed to seeing stories

in which sources are not revealed? Really? Do you recall reading thousands and thousands of political stories citing "unnamed sources," etc.?

Do you recall Bob Novak's outing Valerie Plame from her position in the CIA, citing an "unnamed source" in the White House?

Think twice, post once. Saves time.

[tedzbear]

31. Because Allawi has issued an edict forbiding reporters from speaking...

...the truth. For now on they can only report what Allawi and his US masters proclaim. Otherwise they will be punished. That is probably why this guy is speaking anonymously. I would too if I were him.

[bin.dare]

53. my question too

the Gaurdian is excellent but the Observer is the sunday fluff edition, i often find holes in their reporting and pieces.

[VegasWolf]

23. Hope chimpanzee can sleep at night, but crazy people often do.

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[TrustingDog]

43. that pic reminds me of Ali: Gloats like a neocon, stinks like a pee.

[Supersedeas]

59. distinguishing civilian from combatant targets is so passe -

* has moved beyond the Geneva Conventions.

He'd just assume punch you in the face as shake your hand.



Then, there is always the Media option of blasting the public with exactly the opposite 'message' of what is really happening on the ground....

NEVER IN HISTORY HAS PRECISION BOMBING BEEN SO EFFECTIVE AT ELIMINATING UNNECESSARY LOSS OF LIFE


And black is white, up is down, and 2+2=5

[RyomaSakamoto]

40. our NANKING

will our leaders one day be held to account?

[Chicago Democrat]

49. Falluja - A War Crime in progress....

[eleonora]

55. -sigh-

and there aren't enough crying smileys for all the victims....

[Kablooie]

50. Perspective from an Iraqi girl's blog

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com /

People in Falloojeh are being murdered. The stories coming back are horrifying. People being shot in cold blood in the streets and being buried under tons of concrete and iron... where is the world? Bury Arafat and hurry up and pay attention to what's happening in Iraq.

....

Iraqis will never forgive this- never. It's outrageous- it's genocide and America, with the help and support of Allawi, is responsible. May whoever contributes to this see the sorrow, terror and misery of the people suffering in Falloojeh.

[mia]

52. Thanks for this link and

welcome to DU!

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. kick

[jayfish]

60. Is This The "Precision" Targeting They Are Talking About ?(Video Link)

Fallujah Video

Not allot of precision to be found in this example.

Jay