Helicopter sent to aid submarine

[emad]

BBC breaking


A Royal Navy helicopter is responding to a call for assistance from a Canadian submarine off the west coast of Ireland.

The Royal Air Force's rescue centre at Kinloss in Scotland said a helicopter from HMS Gannet at Prestwick has been sent to the non-nuclear vessel.

The nature of the problem on board is not yet known.

Efforts are being made to communicate with the submarine.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3717906.stm

[benburch]

1. Oh dear...

I believe that the Canadian submarines are all quite elderly diesel-electric subs.

[ltn72]

2. re: sub in distress

Canada has a small fleet of diesel-electric subs, none with nuclear weapons. However, the newer ones using air independent propulsion (AIP) and extremely quiet and highly lethal. A distress call from a sub is bad news.
<P>
Prayers to the crew and families.

[happyslug]

13. No AIP in Candian subs

At the present time, these are re-built British Subs (Buildt 1988-1992) that Canada purchased for more details see:

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ssk_victoria /

http://www.navy.dnd.ca/mspa_fleet/vic_overview_e.asp

From: http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/americas/canada.htm

Victoria (HMS Upholder) class submarines

Displacement: 2,400 tons submerged
Dimensions: 70.26 x 7.6 x 5.5 meters/230.5 x 25 x 18 feet
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 2 diesles, 1 shaft, 20 knots
Crew: approx. 44
Sonar: Type 2040 bow, Type 2041 flank, unknown towed array
Fire Control: unknown
EW: Decca Porpoise intercept
Armament: 6 21 inch torpedo tubes (18 Mk48 torpedoes)

Concept/Program: For ex-RN diesel-electric submarines acquired 1998 on 8 year leases with option to purchase. Gradually entering service following refits to modify the boats to Canadian standards. These vessels were decommissioned from the RN after only brief service. Victoria will be based at Esquimalt, the others at Halifax. All Oberon class boats have now been discarded.

Builders: Cammel Laird, Birkenhead, UK, except SS 879 by VSEL, Barrow-in-Furness, UK.


Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes
SS 876 Victoria 1991/00 ATL Halifax Ex-Unseen
SS 877 Windsor 1993/02 ATL Halifax Ex-Unicorn

[Maple]

3. I hope it isn't one of the

damned second hand ones we got from the Brits. They've never worked properly. And they leak.

[Eloriel]

4. The subs leak? Ooo, that's a BAD sign.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to do submarine duty. I guess I've got a touch of claustrophobia, so the tiny spaces alone, without ANY daylight while submerged, would be bad enough. But the thought of also being under all that water -- yikes!! No way.

I sincerely hope this incident will not result in any casualties.

[Maple]

5. Yeah, they've upgraded them

and so on, and they should be on a shake-down cruise.

But they may be leaking again.

My fingers are crossed.

[AngryAmish]

16. Why don't they just make new ones?

Diesel-electric technology is pretty old.

[happyslug]

20. Old but still good

Since the 1950s there has been a debate between Diesel-Electric and Nuke Subs technology. For deep ocean running nukes have several advantages (mainly tied in with the fact they can stay submerged at deeper depths than conventional powered subs). These deep ocean advantages made Nuke subs the preferred choice for the Navies of the the US, The old USSR and the UK.

On the other hand most of these advantages disappear if you decide to stay close to shore, deep submersion is not possible given the Continental shelf and given the distances the need to surface every so often to re-charge the batteries is a minor inconvenience off set by the simple fact that electric motors are quieter than nukes (and can be made even more silent by turning off the electric motors, something you can NOT do with a nuke).

The old USSR accepted these advantages and kept a fleet of conventional Subs for near shore use while also using Nuke subs for deep ocean work. Conventional subs (and by this term I include the newer technology that makes these non-nuclear subs even quieter) are simply better in near-shore seas (Where most of any naval war we will fight will occur, no one is going to challenge the US Navy dominance of the Oceans, where any Naval War will occur will be in support of near by land operations, i.e. the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, South China, Sea of Japan etc NOT deep ocean operations).

[AngryAmish]

21. My point was that the technology is old and do-able

Why doesn't Canada just build some d-e subs and not have to rely on others cast-offs?

[Hand]

6. It can only be one of those...

The older ones were all decommissioned a few years ago. I know that a few of those godawful surplus subs are in service now, and I'll bet this one of them.

Those things are a disaster waiting to happen--defective hulls and engines, leaky hydraulics, you name it. I drive by one every morning that's been up on blocks in the Halifax Shipyard for a couple of years now.

May the crew be safe... and may that blasted submersible coffin sink to the bottom after they're rescued. We never needed these idiotic vessels to begin with--the Navy needs new helicopters, not old submarines!

[CHIMO]

7. All four submarines share valve problem

HALIFAX - Canada's fleet of submarines won't be heading out to sea any time soon because a problem found in one sub earlier this year has now turned up in all four.

When the diesel exhaust valves were found to be corroded, the Canadian navy had hoped the problem was limited to just one submarine.

But the subs have been sub-par almost since their arrival. The Windsor sprung a leak and had to head for port in March. Victoria has a dented hull.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2002/06/04/subm...

[happyslug]

14. Sorry, it is...

See my previous post for details.

[Hand]

8. More information...

Here:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/05/cans...

Background here:

http://www.halifaxherald.com/stories/2004/10/03/f218.ra...

Basically: The vessel is HMCS Chicoutimi. This is the fourth and final Victoria-class British sub that Canada has purchased. It was officially handed over on 9/29 in Scotland after a partial refit, and left on its way to Halifax on Saturday 10/2. It surfaced after a fire broke out on board, and according to the CBC, the fire has been extinguished but the sub needs to be towed to a port.

BTW, the Brits offered the same subs to the Australian navy. They took one look at them and walked away. They're pieces of crap that should have been scrapped long ago, and I for one hope this is the death knell of this whole idiotic episode.

Fifty-six crew aboard, apparently all safe. May they never set foot on this death boat again.



ON EDIT: the odd typo.

[Maple]

9. Thank you!

And thank goodness they're all safe!

[Hand]

10. Amen to that...

A lot of the sub crews are from Halifax, and the Navy in general has a strong family bond here. Any losses would be deeply felt in this town. No one's gaining anything from this stupid project except the Irvings, who are making a pile from the refit/repair/fixit/whoopsy stuff.

It's a clusterfuck. If anyone dies in this incident, Paul Martin deserves to go down in flames. Well, he does anyway... all in good time.

[Maple]

11. Well the only other

realistic choice at the moment is Harper...shudder.

[Hand]

18. Shudder indeed...

Grumble, grumble. Oh, well; one nice thing about being a leftie in Canada is that you can still gripe about the goddam Liberals...

[saigon68]

15. Do the Irvings own the Halifax Shipyard?

They seem to own everything else in the Maritimes.

[Hand]

17. Yep...

Also Irving Oil, Irving Wood Products (aka Clear Cuts 'r' Us), and pretty much the entire government of New Brunswick. The McCain and Sobey families own all the food.

Irving used to own the St. John Shipyard in New Brunswick, but they closed it down a while back. I think somebody there annoyed them.

WARNING: They're buying Maine these days...

[saigon68]

22. I know lived in St.John for as while

Observed the comings and goings at Irving Oil--- quite the integrated vertical monopoly

[ltn72]

12. re: sub in dustress

Australia has been very successful with its own Collins-class boats. Taiwan has been approaching Australia to sell them eight of these boats, new, but Beijing screamed so loudly that Australia backed-off. Can't have Taiwan able to defend itself (btw, Red China has approximately 100 subs).

[Hand]

19. The damn thing's dead in the water...

But the crew is safe and it still has some electrical power. CBC sez that a British frigate and tugboats are en route to retrieve them.

A small fire broke out while it was submerged and they had to surface to vent the smoke.

This was the oldest of the four submarines.

"We all live in a (lemon)yellow submarine..."


http://www.cbc.ca has updates.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Would you buy a second-hand submarine from this man?

"It's a lovely mover, squire - only one previous owner. Had one just like it meself once - would have loved to keep it, honestly, but in my line of work, you've got to look the part, haven't you? Not that there's anything wrong with this one, of course. The retro look's very popular right now, isn't it, Tel? Right-hand drive, of course, but that don't matter too much in the Atlantic, eh? 'Er indoors can never remember whether to keep to port or starboard anyway, haha.

The smell? Err, burnt pine, I think - taking over from those dangly car fresheners shaped like a tree. All the rage now, honest.

Look, I give you my personal guarantee on this. Any problems, just call my boy Terence on his mobile, I'll give you his number, and he'll sort you out. I mean, you know I've got a reputation for telling the straight truth on defence matters to keep up, haven't I? Trust me - I'm acting in good faith."

[saigon68]

24. Priceless

LOL