Judges pronounce Kerry the winner

[RedEarth]

WASHINGTON, Sept. 30 (UPI) -- Judges on a seven-person panel arranged by United Press International declared Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., the winner of Thursday night's presidential debate at the University of Miami.

"In this debate, (President) Bush barely avoids mistakes, because Kerry avoids successes. Bush doesn't win because Kerry doesn't (lose)," said James J. Unger, director of the National Forensics Institute at American University. Unger prepared the evaluation form, which was distributed to all of the debate judges.

Each judge was asked to rank the candidates based on their ability to focus on the issues, present valid facts, refute their opponent's inaccuracies, respond effectively to questions and present a clear message, all on a scale of 1 to 5.

Unger gave Kerry a score of 18 and Bush 16. He said that Kerry accomplished his goal, which was to get the public to view him as a commander in chief.

"Kerry was consistently in command of a presidential message," said Unger





http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/09300000aaa0449b.upi&Sys=siteia&Fid=POLITICS&Type=News&Filter=Politics

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Bullshit, Kerry stomped Bush.

18-16? Give me a fucking break. That was a pure skull thumping.

[Kierkegaard]

26. Scrub got 12 extra points for drinking 3 glasses of water without choking.

Kerry reduced the chimp to a pile of quivering jello...

[Eurobabe]

32. and double bonus for trying to drink 2 empty glasses!

[coreystone]

35. Maybe his bladder was starting to fill up;........

that could be a good explanation for the look on his face. Maybe they should have had a break after the first forty-five minutes..........NOT!

:silly:

[goodboy]

2. Kerry did way better than 2 pts over the monkey. These guys are

not looking at this as an undecided/independant voter might.

[displacedtexan]

3. I am a former National Collegiate final round debate judge.

When Bush* dodged the first question, it was all downhill from there! Failure to refute or answer is the worst thing you can do in a debate, ranking above repetition of answers, stammering, and lack of documented facts.

[flowomo]

6. I am a former National Intercollegiate Debate Tournament champion....

and the way these guys (most of whom I know) judge debates is completely different than how the public judges them. They take extensive notes (called a flow sheet) and track individual arguments much more closely than an ordinary listener would. Their comments are only valid in that limited, technical context. An 18-16 score is reasonable in that sense, and, by debate standards, a decisive win. The 20-20 vote is nuts, however.

[Longhorn]

19. I was only second in state (Texas) high school debate

but I agree with your assessment. There were definitely some refutations I would have loved to see Kerry make but I agree that the strategy is different when it comes to political debates.

[flowomo]

22. yeah, for all the great points he scored....

he missed a few real opportunities. It was more like a CEDA debate than an NDT-style debate -- and on that basis, Kerry mopped the floor with him because all those presentation issues are much more important in that kind of thing. I had good friends from Texas when I was a debater in high school -- R.E. Lee in Houston was a powerhouse nationally. And I first met those guys at the Georgetown University summer debate workshop (in 1968), which was run by...... Jim Unger! Who was the coach at GTown then. Yep, the same Unger quoted in this article.

And guess who my coach and instructor was that summer? Bob Shrum. THE Bob Shrum.

[Skittles]

8. wow

I'd like to hear more of your opinions of this debate.

[flowomo]

9. My weekly newspaper column is on it.....

It is posted online .... it actually mentions DU! You can see it here:

www.cumberlink.com/articles/2004/10/01/editorial/rich_lewis/lewis01.txt

[flowomo]

11. ooops, sorry....

you were not replying to me, but to the previous poster.

[Skittles]

17. not a problem

I will check it out! :D

[Bjornsdotter]

28. Nice Column....Good Job! n/t

[tblue37]

34. Excellent article, Rich. (eom)

[flowomo]

38. Thanks to you both....

for taking the time to read it... and the nice comments!

[tblue37]

40. Not only did I read it--but I also sent the link to several friends.

They all liked it very much, too.

[BiggJawn]

16. I noticed that too.

Did NOT answer the question, did he, Precious? I looked at my girlfriend and said "He just BLEW it!"

He did all that other stuff you mentioned too..."Mexxed Missages"

[Goldom]

4. "Bush doesn't win because Kerry doesn't (lose)"

:wtf:

[Scairp]

7. Yeah

I have no idea what that means either.

[0007]

13. ....still chewing on that spin factor!! Hmmmmmm

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

23. Maybe they mean

that the debate was Kerry's to lose. The only possible way that Bush could have won that debate is if Kerry screwed up big time and he didn't...therefore Bush didn't win.

[w4rma]

5. UPI is owned by Rev. Moon, now. It's a propaganda outlet just like the

Moonie Times are. (Washington Times)

[Whoa_Nelly]

10. FAUX NEWS ALERT!

Faux News has Bush with lead in the debate poll.
Bush 41%
Kerry 37%

Go to link below, scroll down, right frame, and vote!

http://www.foxnews.com/

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. I generally put my television set in the spare room, inside the

dryer, if I watch Fox.... I turn it on so I can keep up with the spin... works nicely.... don't you know..... Otherwise, I get quite dizzy.

[Whoa_Nelly]

18. However, FAUX is the "news" source

for so many uninformed, poltically passive Americans. That's why I posted the link to the poll site. By the more informed and politically active Americans, such as those of us here on DU, that poll could be affected and changed to show the real response from across the US. :)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

20. Gotcha! Good thinking...... n/t

[Longhorn]

21. Done. 40 to 39% now, * lead. n/t

[3113]

24. Faux News now Bush 40 Kerry 40 w/Kerry up by 670 votes.

[Mojambo]

29. It's 40-40 now

[SemperEadem]

31. at 1:30pm pdt

Who won Thursday's presidential debate in Coral Gables, Fla.?

a. It was a tie (14%) 19,457


b. President Bush (40%) 55,923


c. Senator Kerry (40%) 56,071


d. I did not watch (5%) 6,618


e. None of the above (1%) 1,303


139,372 total votes

[coreystone]

37. First of all it is a Fox poll.... consider the audience....

It is obviously "geared" toward that audience. NO, the debate did not cause me to change my mind, it only reinforced my convictions about the two candidates. I guess my response should go in the "None of the above" choice, but, regardless of whether it is FOX or not, the question is asking for a "change" in on's perpective, based upon the performance of the two candidates. I STILL will be voting for Kerry!

It's a nonsensical and unscientific poll anyway!

Did Thursday's presidential debate cause you to change your mind about your vote?

Yes, now I will vote Kerry
Yes, now I will vote Bush
No impact on my vote
Not sure, I need to see other two debates
None of the above

:dem:

[Scooter24]

12. Oh good grief...

It gets me sometimes...

People keep saying "Oh well..umm..Kerry said a lot but didn't back it up with how he plans to do it"

Sure, let's have them present 20-min long positions on every single question. The general public would change the channel thru the first response. They get 2 minutes to quickly lay out a general idea of their intentions and Kerry did just that. Bush couldn't make a coherent sentence let alone be assertive.

I think people are asking for too much. They complain about how Kerry rambles on, yet complain when he doesn't say enough.

[JohnKleeb]

27. I know its so double standarish

[donco6]

30. I don't think he rambled whatsoever.

He was succinct, but detailed in the span of his two minutes. I thought it was perfect.

[Gothmog]

14. LOL Debate at the college level is so divorced from reality

I also debated in college and judged debate all through law school for beer money. Debate on the college level is very divorced from the real world and is mainly an academic exercise. Unger was coaching when I was in college and that was almost 30 years ago.

I was very proud of Senator Kerry. On a real world basis, this was not a close debate. Bush kept repeating simplistic arguments and never really responded to Kerry's positions. If I have been doing a flow sheet, then Kerry would had carried most of the argument.

[yardwork]

36. I like what you are saying here.

I appreciate the analysis by the academic debaters, but academic debate doesn't win or lose voters. If this were to be decided by academic debating, Kerry would have simply hammered Bush into the ground on the facts. Kerry would have won in academic terms but lost politically for being a bossy know-it-all. I thought Kerry did a good job finding the fine line between informing and instructing. People like to be informed but they hate to be lectured.

W really screwed up politically last night. He was a hectoring nag with no substance in what he said. A real lose-lose for him.

[underpants]

25. UPI huh? Hahaha Rev. Moon has to choke on THAT!

:bounce:

[Peanut Gallery]

33. Watching the media spin since last night

It's as if it causes pundits and media whores physical pain to have to admit Kerry won the debate.

[AlFrankenFan]

39. Glad to hear it!

Bush just kept avoiding questions, pausing...A LOT, and going uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ummmmmmmmm aaaaaaa uummmmmm....

[Swamp Rat]

41. So, the Moonie news (UPI) is throwing a bone to Kerry...

Dumbya gets one ONE point for drinking water without spilling, thus proving he's not a wooden dummy... the jury's still out on whether he was ever human at one time or not.