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WEB EXCLUSIVE: George W. Bush lies about Air Force Service

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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:19 PM
Original message
WEB EXCLUSIVE: George W. Bush lies about Air Force Service
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:42 PM by Skinner
Democratic Underground has acquired a copy of campaign material from one of George W. Bush's early political campaigns in which he falsely claims to have served in the U.S. Air Force. The campaign piece claims "he served in the U.S. Air Force and the Texas Air National Guard" (see highlighted detail below).

Here is a detail of Bush's false claim:



Here is the piece of campaign lit:



For a much larger version of this campaign flyer, click this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/images/homepage/bu... (418 KB)

Developing...

ON EDIT: Here is a big list of media contacts, in case anyone wants to use it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ba Da Boom, Ba Da Bing !
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:27 PM by SpiralHawk
Bravissimo Skinner !

With a tip of the Hawk's wing, SH


"I think the American people--I hope the American--I don't think, let me--I hope the American people trust me."
- George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 18, 2002
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
193. nearly 200 replies -- this calls for a SECOND THREAD!!!
n/t
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
200. What a quote. What a dickhead. SHEESH.
THAT - is what represents America to the rest of the world. Makes ya proud, doesn't it?
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Carla in Ca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
227. I have 2 questions
1. Do you notice the name O'Neill at the very bottom?
2. How did he get an Honorable Discharge?
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
239. A wing tip ...
how apropos ...

THANK YOU SKINNER !! .. Someone.. Everyone .. Report this CRIME upon our nation !!!

Yah. DU rocks ...
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bigpathpaul Donating Member (623 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
253. Bush: AWOL, LIAR, FRAUD PHONY
Hi. I'm new to these forums. I'm not trying to double-up messages here, just wanted to let people know I have free downloadable ads about Bush's (lack of) military career. Two samples are below. These are low-resolution The high-resolution versions are at http://www.bigpath.net
Please feel free to download, print, forward, post, hand out, etc. anything on the site. Also: I welcome criticism if you have it, as I'm mostly working in a vacuum.



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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #253
295. excellent!!
I am now inspired to start a section of downloadable fliers at my website theBlatantTruth

I will be publishing those and linking to your site.

:toast: :hi:
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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
275. Well then the Air Force is lying too
I am new here, so be gentle. I have served in the National Guard, and Army Reserves. I will tell you this if the Kerry Campaign goes down this route of playing semantics with Bushs terminology, they will absolutely make angry the Millions of National Guard Veterans out there.

You are both when you serve in the national guard, both air force and guard or army and guard. I would like to know who the Air Force official the Kerry campaign is quoting.

For Further Evidence I direct you to this blog (I know the freak is a conservative and a freeper)

http://aftlizard.blogspot.com



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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #275
278. thanks and..
welcome to DU :hi:

I believe what you say is true, although I'm not in research mode right now ...

OTOH ... the article states that he did not fulfill duties for the usaf either. Not his guard duties, nor his usaf duties.

Details are important. Thanks for the details.

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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #278
281. Thanks for the Welcome
I understand that the DNC wants to mix this in with the AWOL story as more compounding evidence, personally I think they should leave it all alone. But since they are going after it they should stay on point, thats been there problem all along and by segwaying into a rather inconspicuos(sp?)campaign poster that doesnt really misstate anything on his service you just create more comfusion on the issue. To me its a matter of strategy on this, I dont want to see Bush re-elected but I am very disapointed in the DNC's campaign.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
289. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. omg, it keeps getting better!!
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:24 PM by freeplessinseattle
whee, I'm dizzy from dancing around my living room with glee!

awesome work, you guys rock my world!!
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WMliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
189. excellent name
welcome to du
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #189
204. Thank you!
I absolutely love this place.

and I must say I'm pretty pleased with my sudden inspiration, I was trying to think of something to identify me from Seattle, and feeling grateful for living in a low freeper area..
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
247. and the press will do what...? that was long ago.... watch them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
261. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #261
265. Oh Yeah
Well we may be forging paperwork and insulting the Military but at least Kerry served in Nam! Did you know that!
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #265
314. Who is we?
I have a feeling you and I are not part of any kind of "we".
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #261
296. "our" agenda??
YOUR agenda is only too obvious.
tombstoned, are ya?
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #261
316. Nice try . . . you're history
Say "buh bye"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
290. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
zubeneshamali Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #290
333. Kerry had better be careful
since it looks like the latest document to surface shows that Lt. Dubya was indeed on active duty for 120 days with the USAF. On the one hand that lone will knock the story off the front pages right there and make the Kerry campaign look like a smear operation that has just rolled another gutter ball.

On the other hand, it's only 120 days of active duty. Still, Kerry would be ill advised to harp on that. The danger in doing so is that sooner or later someone will point out that as short as it is, it's longer than Kerry's entire swift boat career.

What happened to Bill's advice to Kerry about laying off of the Vietnam thiny?

Be careful because the ice seems to be getting a little thin lately.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yup, He Sure Did!
Spread it far and wide!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
291. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #291
317. DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK
This is a freeper with a pdf that fucks up your cpu.
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Buckle up, kiddies.
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:25 PM by henslee
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Technically . . .
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:26 PM by ET Awful
since he was on active duty for a year while training on the F-102, he was Air Force during that time. There are other materials however that state "he returned to his National Guard unit where he continued flying for several more years" (or words to that effect), the problem is he only flew through the beginning of 1972 which was more like a year and a half, not "several" years.

Obviously, the intent was to mislead, but the above is the defense he'd use.

That's not really at issue.

I'd focus more on his fraudulent enlistment (since he didn't reveal all arrests, detainments, etc.), and his AWOL status later on.
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GOPAgainstGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Awwwwwww Cute Cats!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
Beltway and Texas Republicans
Against Bush-Cheney 04, Inc.
------------------------------

"Insiders News, Vol 1 - Kerry-Edwards Campaign Doing Well
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Insiders News Vol 1.1 - Great Anti-Bush Sites
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
65. Thanks! :) See the website in sig for more pics :)
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. He joined the NG so when was he training it would be classified as the
Air Force - I don't understand that. Can you explain to a non-military person?
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
46. someone posted on Kos
Kawen Huge of the BC04 campaign has mouthed that Ws time in the TexTANG qualifies him as serving in the US Air Force.

(can this stick or will they say this again)
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. I just read an explanation of this on the GD2004 thread.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
115. Using That "Logic"...
...my five years in teh Boy Scouts (1963 to 1968) qualifies me as a Vietnam-era Army veteran, since we wore unifirms, marched, and learned how to shoot rifies.

Where do I go to sign up for VA benefits?????
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lakemonster11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #115
272. Semper Fi!
I got a Semper Fi award when I was in high school band. Does that make me a marine?
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
163. Karen Hughes
should know better, but I guess that sounded good. Training with the Air Force, doesn't make you a member of that branch of the service!
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #163
240. Air Force
guys spend YEARS full time learning to fly.

I don't even know how he learned to push a button !!

Sheesh.. at least the skies were safer w/ him grounded !!

Peace and Safety :)
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
206. I was in the Cub Scouts during Vietnam!
Here all this time I've been telling folks I ain't a Vietnam Vet and I was wrong!!! Thanks Karen, for clearing things up.

RC
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. The AF disagrees with you.
From David Corn:

Bush lost that congressional race, but twenty-one years later, the AP questioned him about the ad. The news outlet had a good reason to do so. Bush had never served in the Air Force. He had only been in the Air National Guard. But when AP asked Bush if he had been justified in claiming service in the Air Force, Bush, then the governor of Texas and a presidential candidate, said, "I think so, yes. I was in the Air Force for over 600 days." Karen Hughes, his spokeswoman, maintained that when Bush attended flight school for the Air National Guard from 1968 to 1969 he was considered to be on active duty for the Air Force and that several times afterward he had been placed on alert, which also qualified as active duty for the Air Force. All told, she said, Bush had logged 607 days of training and alerts. "As an officer ," she told the AP, "he was serving on active duty in the Air Force."

But this explanation was wrong. Says who? The Air Force. As the Associated Press reported,

The Air Force says that Air National Guard members are considered 'guardsmen on active duty' while receiving pilot training. They are not, however, counted as members of the overall active-duty Air Force.

Anyone in the Air National Guard is always considered a guardsmen and not a member of the active-duty Air Force, according to an Air Force spokeswoman in the Pentagon. A National Guard member may be called to active duty for pilot training or another temporary assignment and receive active-duty pay at the time, but they remain Guard members.


http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?pid=1...
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. What about all of the National Guard in Iraq?
if Bush is right, wouldn't that change everyones status and therefore make them eligible for better benefits? I don't think so.

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lanparty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
156. Very nice angle ..

Thats about the only way I see forcing the issue. If Bush takes this liberty for himself, he must extend it to those who serve under hid command.

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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
56. I'm basing my statements on being on active duty in the National Guard
in '92. I was in the Guard, activated for the L.A. riots and paid as a member of the U.S. Army rather than the NG. I also received a seperate w-4 from the Army for that active duty service.

I could be wrong as it pertains to the AF.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. All I have to go on is the AP info in Corn's article.
I honestly don't know what to believe. :shrug:

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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #68
86. Like I say, my personal experience is 20 years after Bush's
So things were different :).
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
105. What was Bush activated for?
Did he ever do anything other than fly a trainer?
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Liberal Dude Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #105
233. I think he flew an old F-102.
It was an old piece of crap delta wing jet that had a habit of crashing for no reason. I think Bushie was active for nearly two years....Basic training....basic flight school....fighter school....

I think the mission of his unit in Texas was to intercept incoming Soviet bombers in the unlikely event of a nuclear war with the Russians.

Sure easier duty the the jungles of Vietnam....
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luaneryder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
111. Same here
I was on Active Duty with the Army May-September 1979 for Basic and AIT. Even though I was a Guardsman those months count towards AD. But, during my training there was always a different list that I had to sign for things on like the chow line, issue, etc. because Guard monies for training came from the state of origin as well as Fed. So, you could say that he had x amount of Active Duty for Training (and that's what it is referred to), but he was never AD Air Force.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
128. The point being here that HE was never activated...
therefore NOT part of the Air Force.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
212. Did he get paid by the AF?
I think it also pertains to the Air force. It would depend where the person's pay was coming from, as in your case. Did Bush get paid by the Air Force - like you did by the Army - would seem to be the question that needs to be answered.

That question aside, though, the ad would lead people to believe he had been a regular in the AF, which is misleading. I imagine that if someone asked you if you were in the army, you would say, well, technically I guess I was, but it was only when I was activated during the LA riots.

By the way, that must of been quite an activation.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
109. The Bush ad was clearly misleading, but it is also a fact that when...
you join the Guard, you are on active duty when you undergo your initial training. You are still a Guardsman, but an activated one.

If we are going to resurrect all of the ghosts of Vietnam, which I think has been a horrible mistake all along by everyone, one must remember that it applies to both parties equally. Children of the elites, Republican and Democrat, were always able to get into champagne units as in the case of Dan Quayle. How many children of the leaders of Congress went into the military during a criminal war, such as Vietnam? The fact that Kerry and Gore served was the exception, not the rule!

How many went into seminary? How many were lucky enough to afford college and get student deferments every year they attended school? Oliver Stone could have done the same thing Phil Gramm did, but he volunteered.

Should we demand that people serve today in Iraq? No, never! And if it is wrong to expect and demand that people go to war in Iraq, it is also wrong for us to expect and demand that people should have gone to Vietnam, a war that is just as criminal as Iraq, but was far bloodier for us and for the Vietnamese.

Being antiwar means precisely that, being against the machine of war, and that includes the draft!

Let us remember that Vietnam started as a Democratic war, and our involvement began with a Democratic President, Harry Truman. Opposing a criminal war was noble then in Vietnam, and it is noble today in Iraq. Otherwise we fall into the trap of calling traitors those that served in the Peace Corps, or fled to Canada, because they did not want innocent blood on their hands.

As to embellishing a military record, as the Bush ad appears to be, it cuts both ways for even Iowa Senator Tom Harkin embellished his own record when he campaigned:

Only last week, voters were treated to the spectacle of Kerry point man and Iowa Senator Tom Harkin fulminating about the Swift Vets' ads. Yet Harkin is himself an exposed fabulist, having once claimed to have jousted in his F-4 Phantom with North Vietnamese MiGs.

The truth? He never saw combat, spent his war ferrying military planes from Japan to the Philippines for routine servicing, and apologized for his fictions when subsequently exposed by fellow Senator Barry Goldwater.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5797120/
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lfairban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #109
152. I would disagree with one small part.
". . . Vietnam started as a Democratic war, and our involvement began with a Democratic President, Harry Truman."

When Truman left office, Vietnam was still controlled by the French. Or I should say they were trying to regain control after being kicked out by the Japanese at the beginning of WWII. Covert operations began during Eisenhower, but he rejected a proposal for direct military intervention.

It would be justifiable to blame the start of military intervention on Johnson after Ton-kin Gulf.
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shbinga Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #109
194. there's more to it
I'd never suggest that serving in the military, especially in a war that you consider unjust, be a prereq for public office. But here's the thing:

Bush and others of his ilk strongly and hypocritically supported the war (Vietnam AND Iraq) while actively avoiding putting any of their own skin in the game. Sure, Clinton avoided the draft, but give him credit for at least having a consistent message - he opposed the war, opposed anyone going over there.

I'll take a peacenik over a chickenhawk any time.

I think Kerry has the strongest and most admirable record of all of them on this and I wish he would articulate it better. He deliberately did not avail himself of opportunities to get out of what he saw as an obligation to serve, he served bravely and conscientiously, but more important he did so with eyes wide open. And after his duty was complete and he was free from being a good soldier, he came back and spoke out against what we all now know was the debacle of Vietnam. I think this was his most heroic action of the war, and believe that he saved more lives with his testimony than he ever did from a swift boat.
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Liberal Til I Die Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #109
223. To be fair...
How many went into seminary? How many were lucky enough to afford college and get student deferments every year they attended school? Oliver Stone could have done the same thing Phil Gramm did, but he volunteered.

Should we demand that people serve today in Iraq? No, never! And if it is wrong to expect and demand that people go to war in Iraq, it is also wrong for us to expect and demand that people should have gone to Vietnam, a war that is just as criminal as Iraq, but was far bloodier for us and for the Vietnamese.


>>>>To be fair, our Armed Forces at this time is completely voluntary, so anyone who is over there is technically a volunteer. Vietnam, the issue was the draft, and more specifically draft-dodging.

>>>>This issue at least, is really apples and oranges. Unless and/or until we start a draft.

>>>>There are better angles to take in condemning this war, as it should be.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
118. See, he'd know all this if he'd ever bothered to show up and serve. nt
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
168. From the ANG website:
Although the Air National Guard was not established as a separate component of the U.S. Air Force until 1947, National Guard aviators have played significant roles in all of America's wars and most of its major contingencies since the beginning of the 20th Century. Visit the pages on this history site to explore the heritage of American flight... as seen through the deeds of minutemen.

http://www.ang.af.mil/
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Wrong.
During his ACDUTRA (ACtive DUty for TRAining) he is STILL regarded as a National Guardsman, NOT a member of the Air Force! His serial number and pay vouchers would reflect his National Guard membership. His uniform insignia would reflect his National Guard service, NOT Air Force!

As an analogy, consider the fact that some U.S. Navy midshipmen (from Annapolis) are assigned to the summer training cruise aboard the USCGC Eagle, reporting to Coast Guard officers and trainig alongside Coast Guard cadets. Those midshipmen are NEVER regarded as Coast Guard personnel!
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. Or, Bush will claim...
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:38 PM by The Night Owl
... that the writer of the ad did not understand the difference between the Air Force and the National Guard.

Either way, the court of public opinion will, us usual, give Smirk the wiggle room he needs.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I wish I didn't have to agree with you
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PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
79. Or, WH Press Secretary Scott McClellan will say the Dems are resurrecting
"old issues which were disproved many years ago". We Dems (and John Kerry) will be accused of "playing more 'dirty politics' ...against this president who has proven himself a great leader in the war on terrorism...."

Unfortunately, I'm sure the media will not give this one iota of scrutiny. And, in the end, you're probably right, the public will once again give Junior a pass.

So, what else is new?

:eyes:
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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
55. not an issue
"since he was on active duty for a year while training on the F-102, he was Air Force during that time"

You're right. I'm with you on this point. Next?

"I'd focus more on his fraudulent enlistment (since he didn't reveal all arrests, detainments, etc.)"

I'm guilty too. I told them I wasn't attracted to members of the same sex. Would you like to know where that strategy leads?

Data Lounge: Lesbian Judge's Confirmation Imperiled

--------------------
Lesbian Judge's Confirmation Imperiled
Wednesday, February 12th 2003

ANNAPOLIS, Md. -- Republican state Sen. Alex Mooney has launched an effort in the Maryland legislature to block a Baltimore judge's appointment to the bench because, he maintains, the openly gay woman lied about her sexuality on an application for military service.

Mooney said Friday he did not oppose the nomination of openly-gay Judge Halee Weinstein because of her sexuality but because she must have lied on an Army application in the 1980s requiring her to declare whether or not she was gay.

Weinstein applied to serve in the military in the 1980s, prior to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy ordered by President Clinton. She was appointed to the Baltimore city District Court last August by former Gov. Parris Glendening.

"The law is the law, the law is passed by the government, and she decided to lie on her forms," Mooney said. "As a judge, she is going to be sitting over people that falsify documents. It's an ethical question," he declared.
----------

I'm sure some of his best friends are lesbians.

As long as we're picking nits, why not go after this misstatement:

"After receiving {his degrees}, he served in the U. S. Air Force...."

I interpret that as a mistake made by whoever composed the literature. This is a tempest in a teapot.

Here's what's important:

=============
1. Did Lt. Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?

2. Was Lt. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to Air Force standards?

3. Did Lt. Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered to take?

4. If not, why not?

5. Did Lt. Bush complete his guard commitments?

....

Rather: The story is true. And the questions raised in the story are serious and legitimate questions.

The questions are: Did Lt. Bush refuse a direct order from a military superior in time of war? That's Question One. Question Two: was he suspended for failure to perform up tothe standards of the U.S. Air Force and the Texas National Guard? That's Number Two.

Three. Did he ever take the physical he was ordered to take by his military superior? Or if he didn't take that physical, why didn't he take that physical?
============

The rest of the stuff about typefaces, the "th" character, and whether Bush tied his shoelaces from left to right instead of from right to left is of no consequence.

Content counts. Ask the questions. Keep your eyes on the prize.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. Oh, I'm guilty too . . .
I told them I'd never smoked pot :)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
144. BS. Bu$h LIED on HIS campaign literature. There IS NO "GRAY AREA"
here.

Bu$h knew damn well that he was never in the Air Force in any way shape or form. He knew damn well that his campaign literature said "he served in the U.S. Air Force", and that this was an outright lie.. There are no excuses, no maybes, not nothing. His literature lied, he knew it, and he consented to it, and he allowed it to be distributed. He is the fully responsible party here.

Bu$h is, was, and always will be FOS, because he is a pathological liar.

The Air Force is not the Texas Air National Guard.
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roooth Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #144
195. lies, lies, damn lies
"Bu$h knew damn well that he was never in the Air Force in any way shape or form. He knew damn well that his campaign literature said "he served in the U.S. Air Force", and that this was an outright lie.. There are no excuses, no maybes, not nothing. His literature lied, he knew it, and he consented to it, and he allowed it to be distributed. He is the fully responsible party here."

Absolutely.

He had decades to correct this and he's still trying to have it both ways.

Bottom line. He lied when he allowed it to be printed, and he's been lying about it for over thirty years.

And, notice the timeline.
He claims to have completed All of his education, then gone active duty, then gone into the Guard, as if to imply a dedication to service to his country.

And he wasn't a kid when he did this, he was 32 years old. That's old enough to know better

Wasn't it Time mag last week that had the big macho pic of Shrub on the cover with the words, "no excuses"?

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sffreeways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #55
183. The law is the law
They only apply this when it suits them. Bush missed the filing date in Florida and the law is the law. Sorry, no Florida. Yeah, right. :eyes:

"since he was on active duty for a year while training on the F-102, he was Air Force during that time"

This is my understanding too. I know a Colonel in the ANG on active duty in Iraq and is considered Air Force.
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Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
104. Did he ever fly anything other than a trainer?
Did he ever fly without an instructor?

He paints himself as the Red Baron, reading to strike the bad guys on a moment's notice, when in reality, he was busy doing coke and downing margaritas in Matamoros.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
203. Perhaps "where he continued flying for several more years" is a pun
I mean, hasn't he admitted to having his head in the clouds for substantial number of years?
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WVhill Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
221. I joined the Naval Reserve in that era.
I had two years of active duty. I was definitely in the Navy during that period. Upon release I went back to the reserves to finish the remainder of my six years. I never considered that I was in the Navy and Naval Reserve. Obviously when I was on active duty I was no longer in reserve. I don't know that the average voter will see a problem with Bush's ad. He was obviously in the service. Some will get confused and think this is his missing drill time.

I really don't see this as a big deal.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Busted!
Again. :evilgrin:

Made my day. :thumbsup:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. SHOKCKED I TELL YOU, SHOCKED
He lied about his service, or rather lack of it, in the United States Air Force?

SHOCKED, how dare you say this against our glorious.... (OUT, OUT DAMN RIGHTIE)
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Buck2004 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
262. Shocked!
I wonder if he flew the F-102 into Cambodia?
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. Swish!!! Excellent find, Skinner!!!
Wow! Forwarding to CBS news (if you haven't done so already) right now!

:yourock:
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well done! Hopefully the Kerry campaign also has a copy?
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. How many years of public school did W* attend?
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:26 PM by mazzarro
I was of the impression that he went to exclusive private schools in the New England area.
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Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I believe he went to public schools in Midland
and then a prep school back East.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. A few years in Lubbock, some at Kinkaid (private school) in Houston and
the rest in the east. He lost that election btw, a time when there was still a strong Dem presence in Texas.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
123. Sorry should have written Midland instead of Lubbock. Such a hometown
boy.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. It just says he 'attended' public school
I was educated in private schools in grades 1-12 but went to public school for kindergarten. Private schools in my area didn't have kdg. So maybe that was true for Midland, TX also.

I could also say I 'attended' public schools. But I was 'educated' in private schools.

For that matter, when I was a kid, my dad worked for the KC Chiefs. We used to go to the stadium with him and run up and down the field during practice. So you could say my sisters and I played with the Chiefs.

Semantics, ain't they fun???
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. Whoa! It's tremendous having someone who used to play with the Chiefs
posting here at D.U.! Fantastic!

(As a side note, your life could make some of us downright green with envy. That kind of experience would have been amazing.)

If you and your sister ran near Coach Stram, or Levy, and they acknowledged you, you could also say you played for Coach Stram or Levy or Schottenheimer, etc. I see the direct connection to Swifties!

You could also say the crowd roared wildly every time you went in to play!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. It was amazing
We used to get to stand on the sidelines during the games. Then when they built a new stadium, they wouldn't let us on the field but we got to sit in the press box.

To this day, going to the games and sitting in the stands with the regular folks isn't the same.

And did you see where Bush came to visit the team a few weeks ago? I was so glad my dad isn't alive to see that. he was a die hard Democrat and that would have upset him a lot.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #75
93. Didn't catch that event. Must have been on a swing through campaign stop.
What a horrible thing to do to a great team! Hope it won't jinx them.

They'll just have to remember Coach Stram's advice to "keep matriculating that ball on down the field!"

Your Democrat dad sounds like a great father.

Thanks for the view of life as a Chief's player! I'm sure you should be able to claim this connection. It's all the rage!

He's probably a Democrat!
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #75
191. You mean in LaCrosse for their preseason practice?
Where most of the residents are die hard Packer fans?

Not exactly the best place to campaign.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
72. OMG - a new consideration for me !
I used to fool around with my blues harp while listening to Grateful Dead tapes . . . SO ... I used to play with the Grateful Dead !!!

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. In that case,
I have a ton of friends who played air guitar with Jimi Hendrix!!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #81
97. I sang with the Beatles!
:D
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Chelsea Patriot Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #97
129. I danced with Joey Heatherton!
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obiwan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #129
143. I toured with the Drifters...
Really. I did. In 1976. This is the God's honest truth.
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #72
181. I tripped with the Grateful Dead
.. long story, but it's true.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #181
185. and I had sex
with pretty much every Playboy Centerfold from 1976-1981!!! Man, I was a STUD! I LOVE this new standard!
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GOPAgainstGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. There is More of This Campaign Fraud Material & Articles Out There Too!
------------------------------
Beltway and Texas Republicans
Against Bush-Cheney 04, Inc.
------------------------------

"Insiders News, Vol 1 - Kerry-Edwards Campaign Doing Well
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Insiders News Vol 1.1 - Great Anti-Bush Sites
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Does it say, "I'm George Bush and I approve of this message?"
Too easy to blame on a misinformed campaign worker. We have tape of the guy saying Iraq was a immenent threat - he says he didn't. NOBODY CARES!!!! I'm beginning to feel this whole election has nothing to do with the candidates and everything to do with... NOTHING!!! It's a farce. A front. Who really IS running this show?

WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING TO OUR COUNTRY?????

In the words of Melissa Ethridge:

"It must have gone away out my backdoor. Must have gone away out my backdoor. It's gone, gone, gone, gone."
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DU9598 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Excuse me,
Mr. President, your pants are on fire!

Why to go Skinner!!!

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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. The thought occurred to me, too.
It could easily be blamed on a misunderstanding or overzealous campaign copywriter. However, I'd guess it was distributed fairly widely by his campaign at the time, and at this point, I think it's just another strike at Bush* on the honesty/legitimacy front. He's like the 'boss' in a video game -- the odds are against you, but if you hit him enough times without taking too much damage, eventually you'll get through.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Problem is when you train for a job in the Reserves, or Guard, you are
on Active Duty. I joined the Army Reserves in 1981. I was placed on Active Duty for Basic Training and AIT (Advanced Individual Training.) I was IN the Army for 6 months before I came home to serve with my Reserve unit. The only thing different about my training and my status was when I went through the chow line I had to tell them I was Reserves so they could charge my meal to the right budget.

This certainly will be another little dent in Bush's shining armor, especially with those people who don't understand the technicalities of it, but it's not a smoking gun. I don't think guns smoke in the Twilight Zone.
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #40
76. I know reservists go through the same basic training,
I knew a lot of Army reservists in my home town, which used to have an active missile base back during the Cold War. I didn't, however, know that it was considered active duty when they were in Basic and tech school. If I didn't know it, being around it so much and having several family members who've served active duty (mostly in the Air Force) over the years, I suspect most people won't know it, either.

It is sort of an inflation of his record, but you're right -- it's kind of an iffy distinction.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
94. Reserve is different than Guard.
Reserve is part of the national force; guard is the "state militia".

Mr. Pcat was WV National Guard in Iraq I. I just looked at his paystubs (he keeps all sorts of paperwork) and he was never paid as Army. It was always WV National Guard.

Pcat
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #94
133. I served in all three. Reserves. Regular Army and AZ National Guard.
They are different, but the initial training is always the same. Basic Training and Advanced Individual Training. (Luckily, I only had to go through basic training once, but I went to three different AITs for three different MOSs (Military Occupation Skill.) I believe officers also go to OCS - (Officer Candidate School). I didn't hobnob with officers much, so I really don't know, what they had to do.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
101. No, no "smoking guns here"!
We need a :twilight zone: smilie!
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Tummler Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. The Bush campaign had a chance to repudiate the ad in 1999
Instead, Karen Hughes defended the accuracy of the ad. For more, see the other posts in this thread about the 1999 mini-controversy over the ad, as raised by the AP.
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
89. I saw a post elsewhere, while trolling the 'Latest' page.
I think it's the same issue you're referring to. Apparently, the problem isn't so much that he claimed Air Force active duty -- which perhaps he legitimately could, if he'd only claimed the traditional (at that point) six weeks at Lackland.

He was trying to claim all his pilot training at the guard base was also active duty, which it certainly was not, at least according to the rules of the Air National Guard at that time. If he'd been serving active duty other than the traditional time in basic training, he'd have been sent to Vietnam, of course -- active duty pilots all had to go.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
197. Hey, if it works. I'm all for it. I'm just a little skeptical
considering the guys is a bald-face, caught-on-tape liar, and no consequence. It would be pretty remarkable for something as "nuanced" as this to do the trick. But, hey, who am I? Like they say in the Army..."Ready on the left? Ready on the right? FIRE!"
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48pan Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #197
207. What about the firing line?
'Like they say in the Army..."Ready on the left? Ready on the right? FIRE!"'

You forgot, "Ready on the firing line." I hate to be a pedant, butt.....

Is this a gun thread?
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #207
219. I got out in '89. My mind's getting fuzzy. You're right.
My bad.

:)
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Way to go Skinner
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Well done sir!
This has to be gotten out there.

This campaign against Kerry is consistent with the Rove technique of projecting your guy's faults onto the other candidate - it insulates your guy from the charges.

If a candidate who has a history of spousal abuse says that 'some people say' that his opponent has beaten his wife, then when the real story comes out, the originator says, "You're just trying to tar me with the same brush." We should never forget that the braintrust in the WH know all this stuff in advance and have planned for these revelations.

Morans like Timmy, Chris, and the Staff at Fox just blithely play along.

I'd like to see what they'd do if the same thing were done to them...such as "Some people say that (fill in press whore's name here) masturbates publicly in his car while he's driving home." Just like that judge did in whatever state in his courtroom.

Can you imagine the sputtering? The outrage?
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let's see the corporate media call forgery now!
Can't wait to see this excuse! Thanks for the post! :toast:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
224. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ezee Donating Member (615 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. It also states
that he SERVED AFTER he had gone to Yale and Harvard. I thought the reason he got out of service early was in order to attend Harvard.
WTF?
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
62. Good catch.
He served with TANG after Yale and deserted to go to Harvard. The ad implies he completed all his schooling prior to joining the AF and TANG. Another lie.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
71. Exactly. The timeline is also wrong.
He *did* do Harvard Business School after the TANG -- and went AWOL from his TANG AWOL to do so.

Either they were extremely slopping in the creation of that ad, or intentionally misleading.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. All of this info has been seen before but the media just did not seem the
least bit interested.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
92. Right, and now they are saying "we've been through this,"
and want to move on. Well, we have been through this, but they have not.
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shbinga Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #92
198. you've got to admire the chutzpa...
of the shrub's campaign staff. they don't answer the questions, hide or classify the documents, pretend to release some, pretend the rest have been destroyed, after years of dodging and ducking and lying finally the guard records come out that prove that little arbusto boy got special treatment, didn't fulfill his duty, and what do they do?


  • claim that some of the memos are in the wrong font, throwing everyone off the unpleasant scent of the actual record (ok, ignore those memos - he's still nailed)
  • claim his suspicious honorable discharge proves he completed his service, even though he obviously did not (isn't that the point? special privilege?)
  • throw the whole thing off claiming it's just old recycled claims, as though somehow if a question is unanswered long enough it somehow becomes illegitimate (much like the response to the SEC sweeping the Harken scandal under the rug - we can't ask the same question twice, so all they need do is ignore it once)

It reminds me oh how I keep hearing that Moore's film has been 'totally discredited': no one can come up with a single substantial fact presented in F9/11 that was untrue, but once it's been declared 'discredited' everything in it is somehow off the table.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #198
312. The drudge doc is obviously a fake
Come on, man. it's a form in the format of a table. People have only been able to make tables since 1993 using windows and by dragging the mouse. I know that, because Rush told me.

I can't believe the nerve of some people. Tables didn't exist when you say this so-called "form" was completed -- kind of like the Times Roman typeface and typewriters with proportional spacing.

:puke:


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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. before they start saying that're fake
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:32 PM by private_ryan
someone should ask Bush if this is his ad or not. Did he write that in his campaign ad?
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. Forgery - look at the font!
:eyes: :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:44 PM
Original message
did they dig out the
guttemberg press for this one?

:-)

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Beware the Beast Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. October Surprise, here we come!
I think the Pukes are going to get extremely desperate now in the weeks to come. Great work, Skinner! :toast:
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. AD Skinner: Beware of cigarette smoking man
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:45 PM by RevCheesehead
To AD Skinner, FBI
from Agent Dana Scully

Am pleased to hear you found the documents. Please be advised that the cigarette-smoking man is hot on your trail. Mulder and I are here to assist. Please advise.

Scully


************

Thanks for brightening my day!
:smoke:

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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
96. Addendum
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 01:24 PM by lapfog_1
To AD Skinner, FBI
from Agent Dana Scully

Be advised that there are a group of internet savvy
malcontents who MAY be able to help you with research
into the documents in question... Mulder calls them
"The Lone Gunmen" but we know them as their alter ego, DUers.

Good Luck,
Scully

P.S. These folks had a crackpot theory that elements of the
US government might use a remotely piloted airliner to crash
into the WTC and blame terrorists, all in an effort to justify
larger military budgets... they exposed this theory in March
of 2001 as a "TV Episode". Not that anyone in the FBI could
imagine such a fantastic plot line!

Some number of these "Lone Gunmen" (DUers) wear hats made
of tinfoil! Suggest you do the same.
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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
106. Aha! Missing records found!



good thing Mulder and Scully are on the job...
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #106
184.  . . .
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 06:56 PM by TaleWgnDg
. . .
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
29. Great find.
Although the nutcases out there will claim it didn't matter that he lied, since he FOUND JAY-SUS (AMEN!)
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
30. Make this post STICKY!
Keep it at the top, where it belongs.

Not that it won't stay up there on it's own, but one can never be too certain.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
52. Nominated for front page n/t
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
31. ROFL, Skinner
did the "Drudge" bug bite you?

"Developing"........

I love it!!! :D
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. One minute.
You beat me by one minute! :D

Hehe....
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
50. I couldn't help myself.
:D
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
32. "Developing..."
Hehe. Nice touch, Skinner. I approve. ;-)
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. Wheeeeee ! thank you Molly Ivans
:D
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
38. Lying deserter
what a scumbag
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Tummler Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
39. Here's a related AP story from 7/14/1999
I'm glad someone finally got a copy of the actual ad!

The old AP story:
    FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- In 1978 campaign literature, George W. Bush said he served in the Air Force, a claim his presidential campaign says is legitimate based on time he spent training and on alert while a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

    **snip**

    A pullout ad from The Lubbock Avalanche-Journal on May 4, 1978 shows a huge picture of Bush with a ''Bush for Congress'' logo on the front. On the back, a synopsis of his career says he served ''in the U.S. Air Force and the Texas Air National Guard where he piloted the F-102 aircraft.''

    **snip**

    Asked about the statement that the Texas governor served in the Air Force, spokeswoman Karen Hughes said Tuesday that it was all ''accurate.'' She said that while Bush was attending flight school from November 1968 to November 1969, he was considered to be on active duty for the U.S. Air Force. Also, at several times when he was serving in the Guard, he was placed on alert and considered to be on active duty as well, she said.

    **snip**

    Anyone in the Air National Guard is always considered a guardsmen and not a member of the active-duty Air Force, according to an Air Force spokeswoman in the Pentagon. A National Guard member may be called to active duty for pilot training or another temporary assignment and receive active-duty pay at the time, but they remain Guard members.

More at these sources for the old AP article:
http://www.dodgeglobe.com/stories/071499/new_bush.shtml
http://www.caller2.com/1999/july/14/today/texas_me/3182...
http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/071499/tex_LD0664.00...
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #39
74. and another from March 7, 2001
via Atrios:

http://www.thedubyareport.com/milserv1.html

March 7, 2001
The following article includes excerpts from Fortunate Son by J.H. Hatfield, available from Soft Skull Press.
In his 1978 congressional campaign Bush claimed that he had served in the Air Force. "A pullout ad from the Lubbock Advance-Journal on May 4, 1978, showed a huge photo of George W. with a 'Bush for Congress' logo on the front. On the back, a synopsis of his career stated he had served in the U.S. Air Force and the Texas Air National Guard where he piloted the F-102 aircraft.' When confronted about the misleading ad years later, Bush claimed that while he was attending flight school from November 1968 to December 1969, he was considered to be on active duty for the U.S. Air Force. The military branch denied his assertion by stating that Air National Guard members were considered 'guardsmen on active duty' while receiving pilot training. They were not, however, counted as members of the overall active-duty Air Force."
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Nimble_Idea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
42. He lied before, He lies now, He will lie AGAIN!
liar liar shrub a liar
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
43. Hmmm. Maybe he meant to say 'Peruvian Air Force'.
Or Columbian Air Force?

Let's see, 1978 . . . Peruvian?

:evilgrin:

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. What did the Peruvian AF do to you?
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
44. The ad is obviously fake!
Chimpanzees don't wear ties, people.

:evilgrin:
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True_Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
45. Awesome find Skinner!
:yourock:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
47. I'm trying to print out the larger version
and only getting part of the page. Could someone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
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Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. I saved it and then opened it with Picture It!
From there, I could re-size it to fit on an 8.5x11 page. Hope this helps!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
82. Thanks so much Longhorn
:hi:
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
48. MEDIA CONTACT LIST
Sorry we haven't finished the national media blaster. But here is a big list of media contacts, in case anyone wants to use it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. thanks will see if Mathewos uses this
by the way, people remember to contact Air America as well
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. At the very bottom of the flier the Joe O'neill appears
or at least i think thats what it says, could he be related to John O'neill?
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justjones Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
59. This is the equivalent of lying on a job application......
And we all know what happens to someone when they lie on their application and the truth comes out later.......THEY ARE FIRED!

Bush, you are a liar liar and you're fired!
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
61. This is an answer to the question Digby asks...
re the LA Times article: "No Disputing It: Blogs Are Major Players"

Right(wing) Blogosphere Takes A Victory Lap

This is really a testament to the right wing echo chamber, not blogging per se. They had a conduit to get this information into the mainstream quickly. Had our side done the same thing it would have taken days to get the attention of the mainstream.

We don't have a Drudge, which is an absolutely necessary bridge from the internet to the mainstream media.

Why not?


http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
66. Excellent work! Expose all the lies.
:thumbsup:
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rawstory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
67. More details at RAW STORY
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:55 PM by rawstory
http://rawstory.com

gonna add this now -- check out bush 1978 campaign memorabilia

http://bushcollectors.freeservers.com/georgewbushcongre...
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
98. Picture of a youthful bush...
damn scary.......he looks like TED BUNDY!!
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
69. This was posted on DU before
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:57 PM by Gman
I want to say back in like the fall of 2002. I believe Bush's (or more actually his surragates') answer was that he was eligible to be called up into the Air Force so it "actually" was true. He also claimed to have trained in the Air Force but it was proven that he really never did. The claim to have Air Force training was based on the assertion that he had some of the same training that's received in the Air Force.

Of course, this is all from memory and I've got no links to show. It may be in old archives of DU.

The above is what they will probably come back with. We need to be ready with good comebacks.

This is still a very timely issue.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. a current item on atrios is rerunning (linking) an item
from the dubya files that was dated 2001 (I think...)
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
70. Bushie will definitely have to answer for that one!
He can't ignore this.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
77. "George Bush has hald several community service positions."
Is that a sly way to say that he had to perform community service to avoid prosecution for drug-related crimes, as has been suggested?

Hasn't it been rumored that he pulled a stint at some underprivileged kids place?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
78. Okay, if he spins this that as a member of the National Guard he can be
considered a member of the Air Force, then what does that say about the alert drill that he didn't attend? Wouldn't that be considered a more egregious offense if, as a member of the Air Force he intentionally skipped a drill that was so important?

I don't think that his Guard duty qualifies him to claim he was a member of the Air Force, but if he insists on claiming that, then I would think that his missing that drill would be really serious and grounds to throw his ass in a military facility until he was court martialed for being AWOL from a mandatory drill.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Com'on the reason the blue blood
silver spoon never faced the music is that he was the son of a US Congressman (later Ambassasador) who had dinner with the CIC... you know that I know that.
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tibbiit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. He Lied about his Masters Degree-TANG Chronology
The ad says:
AFTER receiving a Bacholer of Arts Degree from Yale University
AND a Masters of Business Administration from Harvard University HE Served in the US Airforce and the Texas Air National Guard......

Arent there 2 big lies here? He went to Harvard AFTER his Guard service. This ad sounds like he went to college first at Yale and Harvard and THEN he was in the Airforce/TANG.

Is this not correct?
tib
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #80
99. Had he stayed in school that long it would have required deferments
It was never disclosed how many deferments he took, although we've heard Cheney had a handful.

Would it be easy to learn how many deferments he took before he went to the T.A.N.G.?

If he had already completed his education at those two schools, wouldn't it be likely he would have been given a higher rank?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #80
117. You are correct!
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #80
119. I personally like the line about 'attended public school'
well sure, until he went to Andover.
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Lizzie Borden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
83. KICK!
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
84. That looks like Monica Lewinsky's dress!
Explain this one Bushbots!

Wow!
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Christof Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
87. Holy crap...
This is big news. I hope the media covers it!
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
88. ahhh
lying liars and the lies they tell!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
90. "Rule of Law!, Rule of Law!"
The Rule of Law asserts that men should not be trusted to govern others unless their rule is tempered by fixed laws to prevent tyranny, laws that stop individuals from accumulating wealth by force, laws that keep those in high office from exercising power over the populace without restraint, laws that deny the majority power to act without due regard for the rights and well-being of individuals who are a minority, laws that prevent
the powerful from plundering the weak
.

The Rule of Law decrees that Law shall govern us according to the will of the People and not by the will of individual men (or groups of men) in high places. However it presupposes that the people are themselves constrained by the spirit of the law. Political Science students are often mistaken in their belief that America is a Democracy, and that as a Democracy, the will of the people is paramount. The position of the Founding Fathers, however, was that turning over the function of government to persons not skilled or schooled in the art of governance was a sure recipe for national disaster. Nevertheless, they believed that common people should not be limited in their access to government nor in their opportunity to fully participate in the process of governing themselves, subject, of course, to certain assumptions.


http://www.lawandliberty.org/rulelaw.htm

I'm not sure what this means exactly, but sure heard it a lot during Clinton's impeachment.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
91. Locking.
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 01:13 PM by JohnLocke
Not LBN.

:D
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
95. KICKFUCKINGASS SKINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
100. Good Work, Guys!
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
102. Way to go!




Here at DU.

It surprises me not that Bush has lied or greatly exagerated (sp?) his credentials to get where he wanted to be politically. What a loser!



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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
103. He also went to Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass.
An exclusive prep school. Not public school. Did he ever go to public school? In Texas?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
107. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #107
121. Good, perhaps you can get the media to demand that bush, rove and
company debate the real issues which is what Kerry is on the campaign trial trying to do and time and again the media goes back to old, unresolved issues. Good luck with that. Also, welcome here.
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Chelsea Patriot Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #107
132. And I, Miss Thing, am tired of reading illiterate Freeper Posts.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #107
146. "The Trail Of Lies" - The continuing saga of George W. Bu$h, from his
early years as a pathological liar in his Congressional campaign, on through his lies about John McCain and his service in the Air National Guard, up to the time he lied repeatedly, day after day, to the entire world on radio and television, about how we had to invade Iraq because they indisputably had tons and tons of WMD which they were going to use against the US.

CPUSA04, we really have to face the sad, sad, facts here. What Bu$h did 30 years ago is relevant today, because it is part of an ongoing, tragic pattern.

Bu$h has a mental disorder. He is clearly a dangerous pathological liar.

He should be removed from office immediately. November could be too late.
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
108. SKINNER SKINS A CHIMP!
... and nails him to the wall!

Now THAT'S what I call GOP campaign illiterature that I can appreciate!
Next September 11th...

... celebrate Patridiot Day!


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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #108
136. Ouch.
That image hurts...
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
110. public school??
since when is andover public?? what public school?? more lies!!!
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. He did go to public school in midland for a few years back when he was
a little chimp.
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AngryWhiteLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
112. Was this printed by an IBM Selectric? "Th"s and proportions look funny
Silly, DUers. Don't you know that Bush is the Second Coming and therefore is infalable.

JB
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
114. Kick
Kick that inane little chimpanzee's Yalie frat-boy ass!
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
116. George W. Bu$h is a pathological liar. He is completely untrustworthy,
and is by far the most serious existing threat to the safety, security, and well-being of the people of the United States, and in reality the world.

We absolutely must get rid of this juvenile idiot before he literally gets us all killed.

End of Story.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
120. This is why I love DU
You da man, Skinner
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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
122. Oil and gas producer alright....if there's oil Bush is there. He's
liberating all the oil fields of the world!


Take this buffoon DOWN!
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siepmann Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #122
238. And gas....
....produced by flatulence?
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
124. ROCK ON! And I love the way you have it displayed on the front page.
:bounce: :bounce:
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
125. Great job!!
But what font's being used? Isn't anyone going to talk about the font? ;)
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coreystone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
126. As we well know, IT IS Clinton's fault!! n/t
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. Actually, it was the Clenis.
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
127. hell, i'd check to see if he was a member of NFIB, the presbyterian church
and see whether he coached little league. the lying little sh*t.

actually, it may be possible to see if he was an nfib member.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
131. Great find.
Unfortunately, the real reporters in the responsible news media won't be coming to work until tomorrow morning, so I don't think the sh*t will realy hit the fan until then. The robo-media, in the meantime, will crank along with the Bush is wonderful double-speak.

Good work though!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
134. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #134
138. "we"?
Who do you think you're fooling?
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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
135. Ad implies he flew planes in Mass
...and he's finally admitted that he didn't (LIE #2)

aren't they now claiming he had hooked up with a guard unit in CO?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
137. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #137
139. LOL, those people, with the EXCEPTION of bush....
who went AWOL, did their duty, served and many died. They didn't have a daddy like bush SR. who had the clout to "whitewash" his son's dirty laundry showing he was AWOL. Those who served are angry, angry at bush for attacking Kerry who served honorably and heroically while bush couldn't even fulfill his minimum responsibilities in the Champagne Unit of the Guard.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #137
142. Don't vote for Bush! He's an alien lizard!
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
140. See? **Never** throw anything away!!! Outstanding find!!!
This has made my Sunday. Skinner, you truly rock! :yourock:
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Rochambeau Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
141. Waow! Very good job Mr.Skinner !
:kick: :kick: :kick:
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
145. Without reading all of the posts, I wonder if anyone else caught this:
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 03:43 PM by Mary Pat
Of course, we know that he never served in the Air Force but this says that all of his miltary service occurred after he went to Harvard:

After receiving a Bachelor of Arts degree from Yale University and a Masters in Business Administration from Harvard University, he served in the....

Is that an innocent error or did he purposely portray himself as having earned two prestigous degrees but still being such a man of honor and patriotism that he felt compelled to give those years of service to his country?
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lanlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. I caught it too--
--and was sitting here thinking, didn't he go to Harvard after his Guard duty? I smell a rat.
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
147. Did Bush say this about himself or did other people? It appears to be
people writing about him, introducing him, etc. I know some people would say "it's the same thing". No it isn't. Kerry is not responsible for introductions and news pieces about him. And, as much as I hate to admit it, neither is Bush.

If that is the case, I'm afraid we will look foolish if we jump on this very much. Let's be careful. This could back-fire in a big way.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. This isn't a news article or someone introducing him at a speech...
this is a brochure put out by bush's campaign. There are two ways to look at this and bush loses whichever way it goes, imo.

One way is that he outright lied about himself in his brochure

or

A campaign brochure went out with egregious lies and bush was "disinterested" in correcting the errors.

either way, he loses.

Other politicians have been hammered on the smallest inconsistencies, I see no reason not to point out the lies in this brochure.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
148. Because of all the different opinion on just what
"active duty" entails....even on our board, I don't think the mainstream press is going to make a big deal out of this. If the Dems do, it'll just seem SO desperate. IMHO
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trueblew Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
151. Bush's Treasurer
Anyone know if the treasurer for Bush's congress run, Joe O'Neill III is any relation to John O'Neill, Swift Boat runt? Would be funny if proven true.
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chicagoprogressive Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #151
153. Media Emails
Has anyone sent emails to the media on this? Would anyone care to join me? We need to really push this story. I have already alerted Texans for Truth
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #151
155. Good question!!
*
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #155
165. 1999 Washington Post Article...
...was the only place I could find Joe O'Neill mentioned :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns...
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #151
158. I asked the same thing earlier, havent gotten a response yet.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #151
160. Did a quick google on Joe O'Neill is a BIG supporter of bush,
a pioneer.

http://www.whitehouseforsale.org/ContributorsAndPayback...

It seems to me I remember some connection between Jan 0'Neill, Joe O'Neill's wife, and John O'Neill posted on DU during the height of the Swift Liars smear but not sure exactly what it was.



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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #160
166. George W. Bush and the F-102
http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm

Not sure about the source, but a fun read! I think it has something to do with a book on Amazon?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #166
169. Thanks!
Very interesting info on that site! I just skimmed the surface, have saved it for a further read! Thanks again!
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lanparty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
154. Parsing words ...

I think most people would give a pass on Bush fudging the distinction between active duty Air Force and Air Guard. This issue will take us nowhere and is only usefull as a footer following more substantial lies and deceptions.

The big points on the Air Guard service is:
* Jumping the waiting list to get into the guard
* Superceeding more qualified applicants for his guard position.
* Failure to report
* Failure to take a physical
* Recent allegations that Bush's CO was coerced into giving favorable performance reviews and promotion to Bush who become a Lt. without attending either ROTC or OCS training.
* Transfer to new post despite never taking a physical
* Curious lack of discipline despite never reporting in Alabama
* LYING about serving in Alabama
* Returning to Houston without securing a new guard post or RESUMING his old one (no excuse for not flying during is PUSH service).
* Signing Air Guard entrance forms swearing that he would complete his service and pursue a career in aviation. In fact, Bush gave up flying shortly after his pull service.
* Signing another form swearing that he would complete his Air Guard service in the Massachussett's Air Guard.
* Failed admittance to U Texas law school.
* Successful admittance to Harvard Business school after daddy intervened.

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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #154
164. I have to agree with lanparty on this one...
...not to demean Skinner's great work, but whether or not Bushie told a technical lie about his service on an old piece of campaign literature is not an impeachable offense. Neither is wearing a ribbon to which you are not entitled (as Walt Starr developed), or joining the American Legion even though you can't show a DD-214 and thus were never discharged from active service. Again, important issues and good hooks into the meat of the story, but let's remeber where the meat is: AWOL and or Desertion, walking away from the pilot slot that taxpayer $$ had trained him for, and political influence throughout the whole thing.

As Dan Rather so eloquently asked the other night,

"Did a wealthy Texas oilman-friend of the Bush family use his influence with the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives to get George W. Bush a coveted slot in the National Guard, keeping him out of the draft and any probable service in Vietnam?

Did Lieutenant Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?

Was Lieutenant Bush suspended for failure to perform up to standards?

Did Lieutenant Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered to take? If not, why not?

And did Lieutenant Bush, in fact, complete his commitment to the Guard?"

(By the way, if you're ever looking for that important link to some aspect of this story, please stop on by http://www.awolbush.com . Nearly every relevant piece of info about this story - from 2000 onward - is linked there. And we just got unlimited bandwidth last week, so enjoy to your hearts' content!)
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #164
178. Yes, those are the KEY questions, but this shows...
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 05:58 PM by Ravy
that * has consistently and repeatedly embellished his record. They have answered all of the questions Rather poses. With lies. The more evidence that he is lying about his service record the more it brings to light that when Scottie McClellan say "We have been through that" that the public knows they got through it by lying and emblishment.

That's why this is important.

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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
157. You guys rock!
Thanks for pounding another nail in the criminal's coffin.

:yourock:
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Babel_17 Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
159. A great find
This piece of information can only help in the task of getting the truth regarding this president out there in the light. Big thumbs up.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #159
167. Wearing a medal ...
that he did not earn. This should be included in the story of his fraud.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
161. There's another lie in that short paragraph
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 04:44 PM by Jim__
It states:

After receiving a Bachelor of Arts ... and a Masters in Business Administration from Harvard University, he served in the US Air Force and the Texas Air National Guard

But, we all know that bush got out of the guard to get his Harvard MBA.

The clear implication of that statement is that Bush got his BA, MBA, then went into the Air Force; then went into the Texas Air National Guard. But we all know that's pure bullshit.

The man is completely incapable of making a true statement.

(edited for spelling)
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chicagoprogressive Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. I have alerted the media
I have just sent a mass email out to all of the major news media organizations about this. I hope others join me (PLEASE). I think this is a very newsworthy story. Look, Bush's "TRUST" numbers tanked 10% since the Texans for Truth folks launched their awareness campaign. This is very relevent. SO folks, have you emailed the media yet?
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scottcsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
170. Uh, this isn't a lie
Reservists get switched from reserve status to active status every year, and when you're active, you're considered a part of the regular military. Just like all of the reservists on active duty now in Iraq.

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I Miss Bubba Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #170
173. You are correct
I have to agree because when shrub did his flight training, it was in the Air Force, not the ANG. All Air Nat'l Guard formal training (basic training, tech school, OTS) is done by attending schools at air force bases on active duty status.

Anyone with military background should agree to this or please dispute it if I am incorrect.

IMO, this is a non story.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #173
176. The Air National Guard is a separate organization.
Actually, each State's National Guard is a separate organization. They may work with the Air Force but do not belong to that service. Active duty Air Force & Air Force Reserves have a bit of overlap.

In fact, I believe Air Force personnel have a term for guard members: "FANGERS".
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #170
175. So, we have no NG or Reservist over in Iraq, you are saying?
They become regular army when they go on active duty? Serving WITH is not the same as serving IN, I think. They have different obligations and different benefits.



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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #170
177. According to the Air Force, bush's claim is not true
From The Nation:

The Air Force says that Air National Guard members are considered 'guardsmen on active duty' while receiving pilot training. They are not, however, counted as members of the overall active-duty Air Force.

Anyone in the Air National Guard is always considered a guardsmen and not a member of the active-duty Air Force, according to an Air Force spokeswoman in the Pentagon. A National Guard member may be called to active duty for pilot training or another temporary assignment and receive active-duty pay at the time, but they remain Guard members.

Source
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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
171. Goodbye, Mr. President
:nuke:
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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
172. If George O'Leary got fired, Chimpy should be FIRED! eom
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
174. He also did high school in a costly ritzy NE school.
Guess he did not want that on it either.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
179. Way to Go Skinner. BTW: I found this site earlier...
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 06:04 PM by Junkdrawer
http://bushcollectors.freeservers.com/georgewbushcongre...

The brochure wasn't for sale:

George W. (son of President Bush) was an unsuccessful candidate for Congress against Democratic candidate, Kent Hance. Hance switched to the Republican party in later years and served as a campaign chairman for President Bush in Texas. These items are all from the collection of Ronald Wade -- Sorry, not for sale. Some were given to Ron by Governor Bush.


I thought something interesting might be in there....
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
180. I think Jesse Ventura had a similar flap about saying he was a SEAL...
.. even though he took some of the same training that SEALS did. The real SEALs didn't like that too much.
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
182. Thanks, Skinner . . .
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 07:11 PM by TaleWgnDg
Let's hope that this, too, won't be placed on the back burner by the "news media" or demeaned to be "insignificant" to today's politics or not "newsworthy."

It's about character. It's about veracity. It's about fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. It's about who should sit in our nation's Oval Office.

Who the hell in their right mind would want as Commander-in-Chief some sniveling scumbag who not only never served but lied about his service in the military?

A lying scumbag ChickenHawk is this George Walker Bush!

How dare he endanger our good military personnel in his wet dreams of "pre-emptive strike" where he, alone, makes up the "rules" of military encounter?

edited to add graphic:

. . . . . .
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SW FL Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
186. Didn't Bush leave the TNG early to attend Harvard Business School
If so , why does the ad say he joing the TNG AFTER attending Harvard?
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drdigi420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #186
187. cuz he's a lying wimp!
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chicagoprogressive Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #187
188. DRUDGE HAS IT UP NOW!!!
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #188
282. That makes me nervous
Why would Drudge post this? He must figure it's about to go negative for the DNC.

- B
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
190. kick
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jetjock Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
192. As I understand Title 32, USC and Title10, USC
when an air defense alert pilot is sitting on alert status, he is technically under Title 10, USC making him regular Air Force active duty and also making him subject to the UCMJ for the time his orders are in effect. Claiming that he served in the USAF and the ANG is therefore technically correct, as the ANG is a reserve of the USAF. Also, all ANG retirees sign their names as "USAF, retired" by law. When I was activated for Operation Noble Eagle, my signature block went from Major,FLANG to Major, USAF.
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #192
196. Sign their name by law? What law?
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 09:17 PM by Julian English
I would love to see the specific laws to support your claims. Where is the law that says that demands that retired ANG sign "USAF, retired"? Where in Title X or Title XXXII does it say active ANG are actually USAF? I looked through Title XXXII and found nothing to support neither contention you made. Nothing on signatures and nothing on ANG active duty being considered regular USAF. (Title XXXII deals with the National Guard as Federal law applies.) Did I miss something?

Talk is cheap; good legal research is expensive. Apparently AP did some, JetJock. Me, I no longer practice law, and make no claims about the quality of my 1/2 hour of research. Let us see your legal research. Let us see statutes to support your claims.

ETA: I looked under Title X and can't find anything there either. Post the statutes, if I have missed something. If you don't have a statute, admit you are wrong.

Thank you.
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blueknight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #196
199. it dont matter
that fucking liar rove will spin this to the media so it makes shrub look like audie murphy
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jetjock Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #196
255. Julian, ease up dude. I am a pilot not a lawyer.
I suspect that you have never been in the military based on your comments. I did misspeak about the "Retired, USAF". The Air Reserve and the ANG being an integral part of the Total Force and being a legal subset of the USAF, AF regulations allow for the member to sign his name followed by "USAF, retired" if he/she so chooses after retirement. This honor is allowed by regulation to commemorate the long and faithful service the member gave to his branch and country. Below are listed some pertinent parts of Title 10 and Title 32 USC

Title 10 subtitle E Part II Chapter 1211 Sec. 12403. - Army and Air National Guard of the United States: members; status in which ordered into Federal service

Members of the Army National Guard of the United States ordered to active duty shall be ordered to duty as Reserves of the Army. Members of the Air National Guard of the United States ordered to active duty shall be ordered to duty as Reserves of the Air Force

JETJOCK comment: Bush served on Title 10 orders for short periods as an air defense alert pilot

Title 10 subtitle E Part II Chapter 1211 Sec. 12405. - National Guard in Federal service: status

Members of the National Guard called into Federal service are, from the time when they are required to respond to the call, subject to the laws and regulations governing the Army or the Air Force, as the case may be, except those applicable only to members of the Regular Army or Regular Air Force, as the case may be

JETJOCK comment: As a member on active duty, Bush was subject to the UCMJ, whether for AD for training or for duty as an alert pilot

Sec. 12681. - Reserves: discharge authority
Subject to other provisions of this title, reserve commissioned officers may be discharged at the pleasure of the President. Other Reserves may be discharged under regulations prescribed by the Secretary concerned

JETJOCK comment: "At the end of the Vietnam War, excess pilots were placed in the Reserves and ANG if they wished and a billet was available. ANY member who wished an "early out" for a good reason (Grad School being one) was granted an Honorable Discharge if they had fulfilled their commitment to that point under honorable conditions. The President allows officer to serve at his pleasure. At that time, there were too many so Bush did the country a favor by moving on to Grad School and giving up his billet to a former Active Duty pilot."

Title 32,

Chap 3 Sec. 305. - Federal recognition of commissioned officers: persons eligible

(a)The following categories are eligible for Federal recognition as commissioned officers of the National Guard:

(1) Members of the National Guard.


(2)Members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

JETJOCK comment: Officers of the National Guard are on par with their active duty bretheran and sisteren.

Chap 1 Sec. 101. - Definitions

In addition to the definitions in sections 1-5 of title 1, the following definitions apply in this title:

(2)''Armed forces'' means the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.

(3)''National Guard'' means the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard.

(6)''Air National Guard'' means that part of the organized militia of the several States and Territories, Puerto Rico, and the District of Columbia, active and inactive, that -

(A)is an air force;

(B)is trained, and has its officers appointed, under the sixteenth clause of section 8, article I of the Constitution;

(C)is organized, armed, and equipped wholly or partly at Federal expense; and

(D)is federally recognized.

(7)''Air National Guard of the United States'' means the reserve component of the Air Force all of whose members are members of the Air National Guard.

JETJOCK comment: The ANG is part of the USAF and a statement saying you were in the USAF after you have been served your commitment is therefore correct.

(12)''Active duty'' means full-time duty in the active military service of the United States. It includes such Federal duty as full-time training duty, annual training duty, and attendance, while in the active military service, at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary of the military department concerned. End reference.

Don't drive away the voters in the ARNG and ANG by "poo-poo"ing our service to our country. The decision to vote for Kerry is difficult enough without the added flack.

Talley-ho,
Jetjock





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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #255
271. Sorry, you misread the law, JJ
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 01:56 PM by Julian English
Jet Jock, clearly you are not a lawyer (which is probably a good thing--too many lawyers) as you misread the statutes. (Easy to do.) Nothing you cite supports your claim. Actually, it undercuts it.

Nothing in the statutes you cite says ANG personnel are USAF personnel.

First, Bush was absent when his unit was ordered to active duty.

Scond, even if he had been there, active duty does not transform a unit from Guard to regular military.

Nowhere does Title 10 say that they are ordered to duty means that they are actually members of the USAF; rather they are under command of the USAFR. The rest of the stuff is irrelevant. Anyone under active duty is under UCMJ. And USAF pilots and all sort of others go to Guard duty to get service points. That doesn't mean Guardsmen are considered regular military--even when they are under command of the regual military.

Conisider this: a Marine unit under temporary command of an Army unit does not become an Army unit. Or for that matter, look at the units in Iraq, they are still guard units even though under regular military command. The pilots from Illinois who was court=martialled was in the ANG--not the USAF.

Title 32, Chap 3 Sec. 305 applies to USAF who are also ANG, not vice-versaa. (I believe this the section famous for the "double dipping on points.") No one said the Guard officers were not on par.

As Title 32 to Chap 1 Sec. 101, this says that the ANGs are are reserve component but not USAF. Hence, inapplicable.

Concerning Title 32 Chap 1 Sec. 101, (7) "'Air National Guard of the United States" means the reserve component of the Air Force all of whose members are members of the Air National Guard" specefically says the members are are Air National Guard--NOT USAF. So this vitates your claims also. The ANG may be a reserve component of the USAF but it and its personnel are not the USAF. And nowhere does it say the personnel are USAF. That's why, for example, they don't don't get the same benefits and such as USAF. (And again, consider the court-martialled Guard pilot. He was not an Air Force pilot--even though he was under the command of the USAF. This sort of like a foreign citizen who commits a crime on US soil--he is under US jurisdiction, not the jurisdiction of his country of citizenship.)

If these facts scare Guardsmen away I would be surprised. The Guardsmen I talked to know that the Guard is not the same as regular military.
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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #271
273. But
When you are activated under title 10 you are to be treated the same way as AD personell, its obvious that when you are under title 12 or 32 then the difference are obvious, but i see nowhere where Bush has claimed that Bush had claimed himself as Regular Air Force(active duty is such a benign term, technically anybody who spends more than 30 days undr orders is active duty).

It is very clear to me, as a current reservist and former national guardsmen, that Bush is correct in claiming both the AirForce and ANG on his record, for in fact that is what you are when you serve a state.

A national guardsmen pledges one thing extra when he takes his pledge and thats to obey the governor of that particular state, the rest of there service pledge is owed to the US Governement, the President of the United States, Consititution and the rest.

Like I have said before this is one line of semantics you dont want to cross, alot of Guardsmen proudly say they are in the army and national guard or air force and national guard, trying to tell them different will only turn them away from Kerry.
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #273
293. Just because you are treated that way
Let me repeat this: Just because you are under there command doesn't make you Air Force--it just make you under their command. That is why the USAF told the AP that and that is also why the ANG pilot was prosecuted by the Air Force in the court martial even though he was still an ANG pilot.

Even if being activated under title 10 made you Air Force--which it doesn't--Bush was not activated under title 10. When his unit was activated, he was dodging duty.

Actually, Bush should hope that he was not part of the USAF when he deserted. If he was Air Force, then under the UCMJ, there is no statute of limitations for deserting during wartime and he is eligible for the death penalty--even now!

Anyway, as to your own guard duty, you can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true legally.

And the real issues in the Guard matter, as pointed elsewhere, are that 1) Bush used political clout to get the TANG billet and dodge the draft
and
2) once in the TANG he failed to fulfill his legal obligations and instead apparently deserted, obtaining an honorable discharge by political means when others had to earn this accolade.
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mdhunter Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #192
208. He wasn't subject to the UCMJ
It seems to me that you can't have it both ways.

People often claim Bush was a "deserter," a claim which is false. It is because he was not a) in active duty or b) in active duty training- either of which would make him subject to the UCMJ. Once subject to it, if one reads the applicable codes, it is pretty clear that desertion would fit Bush's case to a T.

But, he wasn't active, and he wasn't subject to the U.S. code, only Texas, and Alabama, criminal law and the procedure of the ANG.

If you want Bush to be able to call himself USAF, then he has to be subject to the U.S. codes, and subsequently to the charge of desertion. If he's not subject to them, and I don't think he is, then he's still just a damned liar.
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #208
213. I believe his unit was placed on alert status and he did not show up
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 10:51 PM by Julian English
If alert status constitutes being Federalized, and I do not know this, then he would clearly be under the UCMJ. As to fulfilling his obligation with Massachusetts Guard, as he promised, I am not sure if that is a federal or state issue. I believe using fraud to avoid the draft is also under the UCMJ under 802. ART. 2. (a)(1).

(As to USC XXXII and X, I cited only to these chapters of the US Code above as JetJock raised issues under these.)

In addition, I believe it is a federal offense to obtain Guard pay under false pretenses as Bush apparently did (as set out http://www.fcnp.com/427/kristof.htm here and http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/lechliter.p... ). Mr. Lechliter concluded the following:
The following analysis of President Bush's (Bush)
military records and the controlling legal authorities
shows the following beyond any reasonable doubt:
* The pay records released by the White House this
past winter prove Bush received unauthorized, i.e.,
fraudulent, payments for inactive duty training, even
if he did show up for duty.
* The memorandum from Lieutenant Colonel (Retired)
Albert C. Lloyd, who affirmed for the White House that
Bush met his retention/retirement year point
requirement, is an obfuscation, or outright deception,
that disregarded Bush's failure to meet the statutory
and regulatory fiscal year satisfactory participation
requirement.
* Bush's superiors in the Texas Air National Guard
failed to take required regulatory actions when Bushed
missed required training and failed to take his flight
physical.
* Despite seemingly laudatory comments, Bush's May
1972 officer performance report was a clear and
unmistakable indication that his performance had
declined from the annual 1971 report. The report was
the kiss of death before he left for Alabama that
year.
* Bush did not meet the requirements for satisfactory
participation from 1972 to 1973.


And there is little doubt that Bush did shirk his duty.
Nice analysis can be see here http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/08/b... /
and here http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040920/usnews/20guar...
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #213
340. Pilot training
While on formal officer training he could be considered part of the USAF.

While At officer basic course I was considered Active Army until I returned to home station.
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shbinga Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
201. Details, details ....
Is it "technically" a lie? I guess it all depends on what "IS" is.

Regardless of whether the TANG is part of the USAF, the clear intent is to make it sound like the shrub was something he wasn't - an earnest, responsible young man who earned his way through Yale and Harvard, bravely served in multiple branches of the armed services while our nation was at war, and then used those experiences to become a successful businessman.

Lies, I tell you! He was a C student with a legacy, a drunk and a coke head who used his connections to avoid the draft and couldn't even keep up with the TANG requirements. Then he drove his companies into the ground, selling his own stock just before it tanked, and was rescued by Saudis because his daddy was rich and powerful.

Of course, the truth would have made a pretty lame campaign ad, so maybe we should cut him some slack on that :P
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Scorpious_Maximus Donating Member (578 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
202. WELL DONE DU!!!
:wow: :beer: :nuke:
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
205. Skinner, this find must have been unearthed because of my post Saturday
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bhrcs Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
209. GWB was in the USAF Reserves
Check out page 10 of his military records. He was in the USAF Reserves before his time in the TANG. Drudge has a report saying the DNC will be running with this story. I hope not. We'll look pretty foolish making a big deal about an old campaign flyer after the Bushies point out he really was in the Air Force.
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #209
211. This makes me nervous too...
I don't think we should make any hay with this. Bush's record from the past 4 years is much worse than his Vietnam record. The issues affecting the American right now are far more important than this.


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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #211
329. Such concern for "our" party!
Gee - almost had us fooled - NOT!

You and the other suddenly "concerned" posters are truely amazing - especially that now US Democrats finally find the balls to fight all the slime - and we are winning with this one!

The SW Liars get free reign - WE were trying to stay above the gutter and speak to the issues - but the whore media would have none of it and guess what - the LIES are WORKING - HAVE WORKED!

No, WE don't think WE'LL back off from a fight for the TRUTH!

America WANTS to hear all of this - NEEDS to hear all of this!

But thanks for your "concern"!
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #209
215. These records indicate he is TANG, never Air Force
Page 8 shows he was an Airman, Airforce, ANGUS (Air National Guard, US) which is the TANG in this case. He was NOT in the Air Force Reserves, a unit with which he was trying hard to avoid.

This essentially was his boot camp. Which while conducted under the auspices of the Air Force did not make him a part of the Air Force or Air Force reserves - he was still TANG. This status has been confirmed by the Pentagon.

For matter of record, if you enlist in a National Guard unit, they still put you through the official Service boot camp. You get paid like you were on active duty, but you are still officially part of the National Guard. Same thing here.

L-
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #209
217. I believe that means that he was being trained by the USAF Reserves
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jetjock Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #209
256. Too Late, we bite off more than we can chew.
The ANG is a Reserve of the USAF. Ask Any Guardsman. They would know this.
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TOhioLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
210. got a mention on American Politics Journal
http://www.americanpolitics.com/index.html . Far right hand column! Will this be the crap that finally sticks to Boy Blunder? Hope so!!!
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muchacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
214. nice find
you are showing the type of initiative, creativity and taste for the jugular that the Dems better reflect for the next 8 weeks!

Make him run on his record and not change the freakin subject!!!
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
216. Bush, Lying, so what else is new?
Any wagers they claim this was fake?
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
218. Kudos for Skinner !

"The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others." Bertrand Russell (18721970), British philosopher.

"At the time of Caliph Omar's invasion of Egypt, the Arab officer on duty in the destruction of the library of Alexandria used two stamps with which he marked the books. One said: 'Does not agree with the Koran heretic, must be burned'. The other said: 'Agrees with the Koran superfluous, must be burned'." Nils Kjaer.

"Unique among the nations, America recognized the source of our character as being godly and eternal, not being civic and temporal. And because we have understood that our source is eternal, America has been different. We have no king but Jesus." John Ashcroft, speech at Bob Jones university.

"In his press conference the other night, President Bush said freedom is a gift from the Almighty, and we have been called by God to use our military power to spread freedom throughout the world. Then he called that Sadr guy in Iraq a religious nutcase." G.W. Bush, quoted by Jay Leno.
(snip)
http://www.gdargaud.net/Humor/QuotesMisc.html

Even the Admins pull their weight around here :thumbsup:
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
220. Interesting read, community service the key?
The real reason that Bush went AWOL was that he couldn't afford to take a drug test. The real reason he couldn't afford to take a drug test was that it would have been a condition of his sentencing that he remain clean. If word of the failed drug test had filtered back to the court, he would have gone to jail. His fear of the criminal legal consequences is why he went AWOL, and that's why the community service is the key to understanding what is going on here. By concentrating on the military records, the media is walking right into Rove's trap."


Those who want to believe in Bush will always be able to fool themselves into believing what they want to believe. At this point, with all many documents available, and the new allegations of forgery from Bush's true believers, undecided voters will just throw up their hands in disgust at the whole issue. If Democrats want to win, the only way they can do it is to get information on what happened in that Texas court room in 1972. The person brave enough to do this would be on an a suicide mission, as Rove and Cheney would have him or her killed (a 'suicide' consisting of three shotgun blasts to the head). There is also an ethical issue involved, as anyone who talks to the suicidal investigator would also be killed. Nevertheless, the drug conviction issue is the only thing that will register with the American electorate. Do the Democrats really want to win, or are they just going through the motions again?


http://xymphora.blogspot.com /
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
222. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ms.smiler Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #222
225. You mentioned a war criminal?
That would be George W. Bush, convicted as a war criminal by the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan. He belongs in the cell next to Saddam. Perhaps now you understand why Bush withdrew us from the World Court.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5855.ht...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #225
226. Deleted message
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BMJ Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #222
228. After November, we'll never see you again
Bye.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #228
229. Deleted message
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ms.smiler Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #229
230. After Kerry wins I suppose he could restore lost honor and dignity
to the White House by restoring our position in the World Court and turning Bush over to the Hague. All in favor...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #230
231. Deleted message
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #231
235. Geez...this thread is like fly paper
:evilgrin:
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #235
260. A Very Sticky Fly Paper Indeed!
Which proves how damaging this is to this asshole who likes to call himself "a war president"---the freepers correctly recognize that this is one more piece of the the fabric of GWB's lies that is coming apart and are howling.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
232. What type face is that? Did they have red pens back then? FAKE!
:evilgrin:

TYY

Yeah, he was a GAS producer alright! He's still stinkin' up the joint. That photo is spooky you can see his horns. Is he smart enough to be the Antichrist?
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ochazuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
234. Question please...
Sorry, I'm too lazy to read all of the posts here. What is new about Bush saying he was in the Air Force. That was in the book The Lies of George W. Bush. It was quite well documented.

I don't think people care, or want to hear that Bush is a pathalogical liar. If you don't know by now, you never will. Our only hope for this is that the media will pester him to death because he will never admit to error or any kind.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bush never has another press conference or grants an interview unless he knows all the questions in advance.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
236. So if he claimed active duty status
then he really is guilty of desertion of his military post in a time of war. Someone should tell him this is a firing squad offense, and I don't believe a statute of limitations applies to desertion. Perhaps this will persuade him to change his story (yet again)?
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siepmann Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
237. ANOTHER LIE in this message
This little mini-bio contains an additional lie in that it claims he "attended public school" in Midland, Texas. Since when is Andover Philips Academy a) located anywhere in Texas, and b) a public school????

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #237
244. It's a half-truth.
His early schooling was in Midland public schools. Then he did a year at Kinkaid--one of Houston's top private schools--before being sent to Andover.

But the bio omits all that high-class, elitist, yankee stuff!


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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
241. Same old George, a liar then and still lying today!
Still flying high with or without his gubmint airplane!

BTW, did those typewriters make those little red lines back in 1973?



Off he goes into the wild blue yonder,
Gettin' high lookin' for fun;
Here he comes zooming to loot and plunder,
At 'em Shrub, Give 'er the gun! (Give 'er the gun now!)
Down you dive, spouting your flames from under,
Off with our national drawers!
He plays his games as, we all go down in flames. Hey!
Nothing'll stop the Texas Air Force!


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bigpathpaul Donating Member (623 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #241
242. GWB: AWOL Ad for Download
Get the high-resolution, full-size PDF or JPEG of this ad from http://www.bigpath.net . I encourage you to print, forward, hand out, carrier-pigeon and otherwise distribute this and any of the other materials on the site.

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #242
243. Thanks bigpathpaul and welcome to DU!
I printed one out! Very nice work!
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bigpathpaul Donating Member (623 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #243
248. Thanks. New Bush FRAUD Available.
Thanks Hubert for the welcome!
It's good to be among friends. If you have ideas on how to "broadcast" these to a wider audience it will encourage me to make more. I'm trying to hold down a 60-hour-a-week job AND produce these. But, I'll keep churning them out if I know people are using them.
I've just finished a new ad (see below). You can download high-resolution versions of this and many others at: http://www.bigpath.net

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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
245. Public school, didn't he attend a school for rich kids
back east(Andover)I believe it was.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #245
246. His early education was in Midland public schools.
Next, he spent a year at Kinkaid--one of Houston's top private schools. Then, off to Andover!

The "bio" is a masterpiece of half-truths & outright lies.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
249. LA Times expresses interest in the story
reporter Peter Wallsten's response to my complaint that only right-wing blogs get their stories picked up by the media:

Thanks for your note and for the link. That is indeed quite
interesting. I'll do my best to check it out and discuss with my editors what to
do with it. Please pass along more if you have it, and always feel free
to write.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
250. Deleted message
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #250
308. Technically, the ANG is not part of the USAF
However, the USAF can in situations the units are under the command of the Air Force (e.g, when units are federalized).

I do agree that this is nit-picking, but that appears to the law.

I also agree that Bush's use of influence to obtain a billet and avoid the draft and his later shirking of duty and desertion from wherever are the real issues when it comes to his service.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #308
323. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
phillybri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
251. Kick
:kick:
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Zen0 Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #251
252. bush lied...
bush continues to lie.


1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. (See table 4.5; Cheney)
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression. (See President Bush)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
254. Deleted message
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Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #254
270. Welcome to DU!
If you go to your profile, you can select an avatar. I think you have to be a contributing member to upload a custom avatar but it should be explained there.

If you contribute, you also get a star by your name for a year.

Hope you enjoy it here!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
257. There's Still More Material to Be Found. Thank You For This Motherlode
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 11:39 AM by David Zephyr
Skinner, on February 4th, I posted still another thread here asking DU'ers to help me find Bush's congressional campaign material.

One DU'er, in particular who asked that he remain anonymous, went to extraordinary trouble and expense, in searching for archival material in libraries throughout Texas only to discover that the items he was looking for seemed to be always missing or permanently "checked out". I am still grateful to this individual and should he be reading this, I thank you very much.

Another life-long friend of mine (I grew up in Houston) drove to Midland and to search for the evaporated material.

TWO IMPORTANT THINGS TO CONSIDER:

1.) ALL THOSE THOUSANDS OF CAMPAIGN FLIERS AND ADS EVAPORATING? The very fact that this material has been so difficult to find considering that the newspaper ads and campaign fliers were printed and distributed by the thousands, IT CAN NO LONGER BE CONSIDERED A COINCIDENT THAT THIS MATERIAL IS "GONE".

2.) KARL ROVE HAS BEEN AWARE OF YOUNG BUSH'S DECEITFUL LIES AND CLAIMS OF HAVING SERVED IN THE U.S. AIR FORCE DURING THE VIETNAM WAR AND HAS BEEN SWEEPING THE TEXAS LANDSCAPE FOR ALL THE EVIDENCE OF THOSE FALSE CLAIMS BY BUSH...BECAUSE HE KNOWS HOW DAMAGING THEY ARE.

Reference Thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Image

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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #257
263. I will say this
That if the Kerry campaign goes down this route of attacking Bush over saying he was US Air Force and National Guard(which is technically true), not only will I vote for Nader but I can assure you many national guardsmen and reservists who are sitting on the fence for Kerry will either not vote or switch to Bush. This is there backyard, make no bones about it.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #263
318. Ok bye then.
Nadewr needs all the help he can get. PS. You were obvious from post one.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #318
328. Hey Sterling. NSMA Had It Right With the "Flypaper" Metaphor.
Good to see you around.
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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
258. This will only anger the Military Vote Further
I am new here, so be gentle. I have served in the National Guard, and Army Reserves. I will tell you this if the Kerry Campaign goes down this route of playing semantics with Bushs terminology, they will absolutely make angry the Millions of National Guard Veterans out there.

You are both when you serve in the national guard, both air force and guard or army and guard. I would like to know who the Air Force official the Kerry campaign is quoting.

For Further Evidence I direct you to this blog (I know the freak is a conservative and a freeper)

http://aftlizard.blogspot.com

<img src="">

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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #258
319. And these "veterans" are not pissed already?
If these "vets" you speak of don't mind their CICdid not bother to complete the same service they did then they are pretty fucking stupid Id say and not worth the effort.

My dad was in the NG and he thinks Bush has made a mockery of his service.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
259. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #259
264. Interesting How Many Newbies Are Urging Us to Drop This Exposure of Bush.
So many new posters with under 10 posts urging us to "drop it" because they are "concerned".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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proactiv Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #264
280. I'm farily new here, but...
... just becasue my posting total is not as high as yours does not mean that my opiions and/or comments do not count. And I must say this: if this stupid memo - or whatever it is - is truly causing as much passion as it seems to be, then we are in trouble. This old pice of paper is NOT going to swing the election our way. It is absolutely essential to focus on the issues that matter, and those issues are Lost Jobs, the Economy, Healthcare and Foreign Policy.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #280
284. Sadly, The American People and the Corporate Media
care far more about scandals and sensational charges than they do about "Lost Jobs, the Economy, Healthcare and Foreign Policy".

I wish that this weren't the case, however, Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale, Jimmy Carter and Al Gore all stuck only to the issues (the very ones you and I are concerned about) and lost.

We lost because sadly the American voters get worked up over Willie Horton ads and "I invented the internet" distortions, than they do about voting their own self-interests. Actually, I should correct that a bit by saying that white working class men who are primarily in the South vote wedge issues more than their own self interests...which drags down all the rest of us with them.

The swiftboat lies, as much as I hate to admit it, hurt Kerry in August.

And if telling the dirty truth about George Bush helps equal out the attention span of these particular voters then so be it.

I don't want to lose this election by just sitting on a high horse and feeling smug about myself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #284
292. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #292
327. You Blame Carter, Gore, Mondale and Dukakis.
as "bad candidates" with "bad messages" who didn't "connect with the electorate".

Your moniker is appropriate. Glad to have you "fighting" at our side.

So, is Kerry also a "bad candidate" in your eyes? Does he have a "bad message"?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #280
332. I and most others on this board disagree.
People who have been on this board for a long time, whether they agree with us or not, have earned our respect and trust.

Newbies who just post to throw water on valid and winning strattegies, and who instead insist we all sit on our hands and give up, are suspect.

In case you haven't noticed, this type of issue has proven to resonate with the amerikkkan sheeple - THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE ISSUES!

If WE don't continue to hit back and hit back hard, we will lose.

Oh, BTW, Kerry HAS and CONTINUES to stress and talk about the issues - only now he has ALSO started to FIGHT BACK AGAINST ALL THE LIES AND SMEARS WITH THE TRUTH!

And the newbies don't like this!

Hmmmmmmm.


Who to trust?

Whose opinions and comments count and whose do not?

WE'LL take long-time posters over so-called "concerned" newbies who have nothing to offer, thankyouverymuch!
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Bloopster Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #264
287. "Newbie" tired of seeing us all look like fools

I understand that there are trolls on DU, but good advice is still good advice.

No one cares about this and Drudge has already 'drudged" up some evidence that blunts the effect of the claim anyway.

There are a million good reasons to go after Bush. What he did 35 years ago - or wrote in some stupid ad 10 years ago - doesn't matter a hill of beans versus the crap he's pulled in the last 4 years.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #287
326. There's that "us" and "we" again!
My, my, my - all these "concerned" newbies telling us to back off from a valid lying scumbag busted exposure of this criminal lying AWOL idiot!

Especially when we have proof of THEM in a lie after they were constantly LYING about Kerry!

This is soooo rich!

Such concern!

I fail to see how you all can refer to "us" and "we" - WE are not fooled by you, and you are certainly no "us" or "we"!

But enjoy your brief stay while you can.

You are all so transparent.
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digno dave Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #259
274. THIS IS STOOOPID!!!
get off this low grade issue and get back to talking about things that matter to people!!!
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
266. John Kerry was in the Navy Reserve but his bio claims he was US Navy
This is a dumb argument and not a winner worth pursuing.

I'm ready to be flamed but time is running out in this election.
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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #266
267. I agree
I only signed up today because of this issue, not because I like it either.

We cant continue to get off target and argue over stupid things that are easily debated, or else we will be looking down at a Bush landslide.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #266
268. Kerry was in the Navy. Period. End of that one.
this is all about Bush building up his (sort of) Guard service into something it's not.
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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #268
269. I see no build up
According to that flier I dont see any build up, I just see a simple statement about his military service. If I were to run for Congress or any other elected job I sure would say I served in the US Army and the Army National Guard because technically I am correct.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #269
276. But the problem is Bush didn't even fullfil his obligations
and as is being made evident, he got special treatment every slouch ridden step of the way towards his honorable discharge.
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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #276
277. Well then
the DNC needs to stick to that whether than go after this issue, its a loser.

I personally dont like all this bickering over the past anyways, but if you are going to go after it stick to a point and twist the knife. If the media gives this issue play you know that there are going to be lots of interviews out there from National Guardsment that the RNC will parade out who will cry fowl on this. Its a matter of tactics, stick to the AWOL angle.
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Almost_there Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #268
283. John Kerry was Naval Reserve (just to clarify)
When Kerry was in Vietnam, he was in the US Naval Reserve. He full well knew he was going to Vietnam, but, he was in the Reserves. The difference is more semantic than anything, there is a possibility that any National Guard unit can be called up, but, that is pretty remote. Hence, that's why the shrub joined in Texas. He beats the draft, got to fly, and didn't have to go.

Check on http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Honorable_Dis... I just don't want to belittle those that served in the Reserves, they fought in Vietnam too.

I think Bush's little ad is VERY deceptive, but, technically, in a court of law sort of situation, would it hold up? I think it just might. :shrug:

But, this is out there too, along with all of the other AWOL documents, and the chinks in his armor are becoming gaping holes. Great work for digging this up!!!

~Almost
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #283
307. And the difference between the Guard and Reserves
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 05:30 PM by Julian English
The Guard is a militia, unit of which can be assigned to the regular, federal military. They still remain organic guard units; they just serve under a federal command. Conversely, the reserves are always under the control of the regular federal military and are part of the regular federal military. Reservists can and are integrated into the regular federa military units as needed. Kerry was assigned to a regular navy unit. Bush was always under the National Guard--though he may have been trained under regular units or reserve USAF units.

Clear?
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
279. Typewriter written!
This was prepared before there were typewriters! It's obviously a fake.

- B
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #279
297. Here's what your indeed talking about, cuz you don't know anything
about typewriters

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
285. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
286. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #286
302. And we all know
Drudge is the most reliable news source. :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
288. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
294. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
298. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #298
299. What makes you think *this* isn't a forgery?
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katapoltian Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
300. What confuses me...
...is that ANG folks wear Air Force uniforms. I mean, isn't the only difference that one is part time and the other full? I ask because I am a civilian contractor for ANG and what I've seen due to my time spent at Andrews AFB contradicts this story.

I mean, isn't a national gaurdsperson not in Iraq still considered Army?

I hate wanting to believe things I can't square in my head :crazy:
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #300
304. Basically they are seperate services.

The air force is a federal agency, part of the dept. of defense. National Guard forces are state agencies. While some federal money goes to the Guard in the various states, and the Guard uses some federal (air force or army) facilities for training, they are still separate organizations.

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JohnnyMackeral Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #304
315. Thats misleading
Thats misleading. The Air National Guard serves as the Air Forces reserves and falls directly under the command of the secretary of the air force, respective state bureaus. Only part of the national guards funding comes from the State the bulk and majoirty of its funding he fed through the NGB in washington under the guidance of there respective departments. They are federal and state, no seperation and in fact the Nations rights trump the states rights on this.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #300
309. No need for confusion. My daughter is in Civil Air Patrol, and also wears
the Air Force uniform. It would be incorrect for her to say that she was in the Air Force, as she is not. :hi:
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Hard Attack Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
301. Drudge Tries to Blow a Hole in the Sail of This Boat with a Spitball
This is how I see it. In the wake of the Vietnam War, George Bush Touted that he served in the Air Force and he states he flew a F-102 Aircraft all in an effort to gain votes for Political Office.

No where in this add, did he state that he was only in Active Duty Status for the first 4 months in 1967 while he trained, then spent the rest of the time in the National Guard. (a fact that if was made known, many would be offended that he would have the nerve to even post).

No where in this add does he state that he left the National Guard without a Pilots License. (a fact that again, if the voters were made aware of, would again question his credibility).

What this add does do, it demonstrates that Bush Misled the Voters. Something he has a knack of doing very well.

He misled back then, he misleads now, and today, as he campaigns asking for the votes for another 4 years, and Praises the Troops and pledges Support for the Troops he fails to mention that right now Former Saddam Military Commanders are advising US Forces how to fight the people of Iraq. (if the voters he asks the votes for on the campaign trail where made aware of this pathetic fact he would be booed and shouted down, rather than be cheered and admired from the false image that Bush has gained from the total lack of media coverage on what is really going on in Iraq). Again, Bush continues to Mislead the People.

Matt Drudge, Sorry, you only bolster the fact that Bush is a Misleading Man by posting the information that you have just made public.

This is how I see the story....

Question: Does 120 Days in Training under a category 'active service', then spending the rest of your military time in the National Guard Warrant one the Privilege Touting that you Served in the Air Force of the United States Piloting a US F - 102 Aircraft, even though you left the National Guard without a Pilots License in the wake of the Vietnam War cross the line and fall into the Category of Misleading?

This is how I posted it.

http://www.hardnewsnow.com/Bush_Misleading_Early_Years....
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katapoltian Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #301
303. Its no wonder...
...he lost that campaign. When the memories and wounds were still fresh.

Can you tell me where I can back up the fact that Bush doesn't have a pilot license so I can show my less enlightened friends where I got this information when I pass it on? It would be helpful in bringing more folks aboard :think:
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Hard Attack Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #303
306. Bush Grounded From Flying
Here ya go, 6 Paragraphs down.

In fact, according to reports by the Boston Globe, Democrats.com and TomPaine.com, Bush stopped flying only 22 months later in April 1972. He was subsequently grounded from flight on August 1, 1972 because he "failed to accomplish his annual physical."
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mdredmond Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #303
320. Bush's Pilot's License
Sure, go to http://162.58.35.241/aadatabase/login.asp and search for George Bush, DOB 07/06/1946. He holds a commercial pilot's license with single engine, multi-engine and instrument ratings.

You asked...
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mdredmond Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #320
322. Bush's Pilot's License
I just realized that the link I posted contains an IP address instead of a qualified domain name - that might scare some people. If so, instead go to http://registry.faa.gov/amquery.asp and go from there.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #301
305. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #305
311. Visiting us tonight, are you?
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 06:30 PM by RationalRose
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #305
324. Welcome to DU !
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
310. I'm tempted to regard this as a minor issue.
I know that the U S Air Force & the Texas National Guard are separate organizations although they do work together. You don't just sort of drift in & out of the Air Force; it's not a matter of mood. But I'd regard this as just another detail of a smarmily deceptive press release, like the description of his "public school" education & his "independent" business career. Kerry needs to concentrate on Bush's other myriad faults & what he has to offer as President. Of course, he hasn't neglected these topics, but the media generally ignore the less-sexy discussions.

But the number of newbies eager to suppress the story make me think this may be important.

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BlueScreen Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
313. OK, so now...
...how do we push this so hard to the mainstream media that they are forced to respond? You gotta give credit with credit is due: the Smear Boats would never have become the phenomenon it is were it not for the right-wing blogosphere hammering the media to pay attention.

Does anyone have a list of media contacts for us to push this story to?

Sagar
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
321. This is so lame...
it's like we will stoop to anything...
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
325. Bush* Lies! In other news...
water is wet, and it is expected to be hot in the Mojave Desert.

What we need is a way to make the swing voter understand that Bush* lies, all the time, about everything under the sun.

Perhaps we could set up an analog of the "TANG forgery" chain, from DU to blog to mainstream news source. You have sent this on to Josh Marshall, right?
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Almost_there Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
330. Can this thread be locked? lol
The number of new people on this thread is amazing.. I've never seen so many people with under 20 posts on any thread before, and virtually all of them while not "defending" bush, are certainly bringing up questions of the authenticity of these documents, or the technical reading of USAF vs. ANG.

While I don't know how the "technical" reading will fall, since I have never been in the military and don't know military code, along with almost everyone on this thread, I am still amazed at how many new "friends" this has brought out.

Perhaps it should tell us how well this board is being watched? Although, much to my dismay, I do see a number of 1,000+ posters citing links to Drudge, which I guess shows that while we are watched, we are also watching. Ahh... the nuances of politics.

I just feel this thread is being corrupted, and we are devolving into a discussion of Uniform Military Code (I guess that's the military's law?) and 120 days here, but, not the overall "missing in action" we all know happened. Plus, trying to sift through hundreds of posts, some quite lengthy, and some with a kick! can be cumbersome.

~Almost
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Callisto Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #330
339. Regardless
The righties are going nuts.Drudge is whining and peeing his pants.Freerepublic is going crazy, as usual.They are trying to make the authenticity of one of the memos the big deal, when Rather is reporting that BUSH needs to step up and explain the AWOL status///it isn't so much the sugarcoating remark..it's the fact that he got special treatment- He has some 'splainin' to do, BIG TIME.What a dick.
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Almost_there Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #339
341. Very true...
I'm not actually concerned with the authenticity of the documents, if they are fakes, the only one it makes look dumb is Dan Rather, who deserves it from time to time.

It is the AWOL that concerns me, not the calling USAF the ANG or whatever. That's semantics, and this is politics, which is semantics to the nth degree. But, where the heck was he?

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chester2003 Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
331. So was I!
The Guard doesn't have it's own pilot training bases, so when a guard pilot goes to training he is assigned to the active duty Air Force for his one year of pilot training, then goes back to Guard status. That is what I did! So it is technically correct.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #331
334. You're a nobody, so who cares what you did?
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #331
335. Is he getting his pay checks from the Air Force or the National Guard?
RC
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RebelYell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
336. Wouldn't it be easier
to list the things he didn't lie about? The short list. Like, um, his name, yeah. He didn't lie about his name!
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MaraJade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
337. Doesn't surprise me a bit. . .
Dubya and his followers/minions are famous for lies. That's what their stock in trade is. They have lied through their lives. Why shouldn't their leader be a chief liar? Makes sense to me. They will do anything to lie and mislead the people. They know that many of their followers worship the military, no matter what so what's a little lying about military service to them? Lying is a way of life to them. It comes natural to ALL of them. They don't know what truth and integrity is, so this is no surprise to me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 02:33 AM
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338. Deleted message
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tibbiit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 02:09 PM
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342. Why arent people as outraged over the Lie
Where the ad says
AFTER RECEIVING a Bachelors of Arts degree from Yale University, a Master of Business Administration from Harvard University, HE SERVED in the U.S. Airforce and the Texas Air National Guard yadda yadda.

They make it sound as if he had already completed his college then the military. How come this isnt hammered?
tib
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 10:15 PM
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343. kick
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