Syria Tested Chemical Weapons on Civilians in Sudan

[mourningdove92]

Syria tested chemical weapons on civilians in Sudan's troubled western Darfur region in June and killed dozens of people.

The German daily Die Welt newspaper, in an advance release of its Wednesday edition, citing unnamed western security sources, said that injuries apparently caused by chemical arms were found on the bodies of the victims.

It said that witnesses quoted by an Arabic news website called ILAF in an article on August 2 had said that several frozen bodies arrived suddenly at the "Al-Fashr Hospital" in the Sudanese capital Khartoum in June.

Die Welt said the sources had indicated that the weapons tests were undertaken following a military exercise between Syria and Sudan.

Syrian officers were reported to have met in May with Sudanese military leaders in a Khartoum suburb to discuss the possibility of improving cooperation between their armies.

According to Die Welt, the Syrians had suggested close cooperation on developing chemical weapons, and it was proposed that the arms be tested on the rebel SPLA, the Sudan People's Liberation Army, in the south.

But given that the rebels were involved in peace talks, the newspaper continued, the Sudanese government proposed testing the arms on people in Darfur.

Details of what were in the weapons were not disclosed.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040914/1/3n4ir.html

[whistle]

1. You mean that Syria used WMD's on the Sudanese people...

...Does this mean that Bush will declare war on Syria now? Is the media following up on this with the White House? America must free the Syrians from their own tyranny! Can Americans be safe as long as one known hostile nation has a WMD program?

[Javaman]

31. No he won't , he only declares war on countries that don't have..

them. He's a bully

[The Straight Story]

2. This should be interesting to archive

As someday it will be referred to as proof X has chemical weapons and has used them and may again someday.

What is it with people in power and weapons or the desire to kill others? Mankind may have evolved scientifically over the centuries but it still seems many have no ethics or desire to do 'the right thing'.

The 'little' guy usually seems to be the one with the most common sense in the world, the one who just wants to have a simple life and do what he can to make it by. When governments get too big and too powerful they focus that power into a select few - which is rarely good as history seems to show...

[Radius]

3. Before the conspiracies fly

Chemical weapons VX, Sarin are organo phosphate chemicals that leave long lasting signs in blood chemistry.

cholinesterase levels can skew for a month.
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~yWYQjH:1

Mustard gas components show up in mass spec for months or more.

These are claims that can be proven or disproven by science.

If this is broken HSBD is THE source for information on chemicals and common Hazardous Substances.

Interestingly these chemicals (OP) are similar to stuff yo have around your house to kill bugs..

[bemildred]

4. Right ...

What a coinkydink. Two of our fav enemies caught
red handed committing war crimes, and just when a
little distraction would be a big help, too.

[Radius]

6. Sometimes

A cigar is just a cigar. This is from a german paper.

Any kind of chemical exposure leaves fingerprints. Trace evidence.
Your enemys' enemy is not always your friend.

My concern is with the people who may have ben gassed. But they are just black so the world will ignore it like rawanda. Maybe condemn it later.

If it happened at all.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/106666/1/.html

(slow link)

[bemildred]

10. I didn't say it was false, I said is was convenient.

Die Welt has been known to have it's head up it's ass
now and then, too. Time will tell. In the meantime, it
smells like propaganda, and until it is shown otherwise,
I intend to remain calm and skeptical. I have no doubt
that if it proves out, it will get plenty of attention, and
rightly so.

[Radius]

11. Me Too

Science can prove this one way or another. If it is true it will be published in medical journals.

I am not drawing any conclusions.

[Kellanved]

26. well

"Die Welt" is owned by Springer and very conservative. It isn't exactly known for world-class journalism either.

[Ms. Clio]

35. Thanks for that info--always helpful to know those things

when evaluating a source.

[KittyWampus]

5. United States Govt. Has Tested All Kinds Of Shit On It's People

without their knowledge.

Clinton Administraion released all kinds of stories during his 2 terms in office.

[Radius]

7. Clinton

Didn't test chemical weapons in the us on citizens.

Big difference in fucking around on your wife and murdering civilians with chemical weapons.

If this pans out.

[hippywife]

28. Correct me if I'm wrong

but the stories Clinton released had nothing to do with anything that happened during his administration so the previous poster is not referring to any wrong doing on Clinton's part.

The stories Clinton released had to do with the US government testing the effects of radiation on Americans during the the cold war. He formed a commission to study this issue:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/dir/mstreet/commeet/meet14/exord14.txt

[secdiego]

42. you're right

Nothing happened during the Clinton administration.
BTW, you still planning on votin' fer cousin itch?

[secdiego]

41. What country do you live in?

Just wonderin'

[Just Me]

8. Where did the chemical weapons come from?

What companies profitted from the sale of such chemicals?

What other countries bought from said chemical companies?

Follow the money,...the money,...the money,...

Give the facts, the facts, the facts,...

I see an allegation,....I read no facts about the web of players.

[Radius]

9. FYI

OP chemicals are manufactured everywhere. The step from diazanon (bug spray) to VX is fairly simple and can be done in a lab with protective gear. There are chemical pesticides that are every bit as toxic as sarin.

Iraq and Iran have both been accused of using chem weapons in their war. They are simple to make and no one ships them, it is much easier to manufacturer them in country.

[abb9]

13. Thats the ticket

Yea,thats the ticket.The Stockpiles of Iraq's WMD went to Syria,where Syria then used it in the Sudan,now Bushco has proof of the Syria,Iran,Saddam Al-Quieda Link,and throw in Al Zaquarwi for good measure.
Quite convenient.
Now if they could just find a Castro,Chavez link

[Radius]

48. Quite a leap(NT)

[leesa]

12. Yah. right. sure.

Let's bomb 'em

[Flapjacks]

14. Probably the same WNDs they got from Saddam

It's pretty obvious the WNDs went over the border to Syria - which is also a Baathest regime.

[LynnTheDem]

15. Let bushCartel know!

Please let bushCartel know this IMMEDIATELY! With Rice herself admitting they had NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE of any WMD going to Syria, and with bush's own hand-picked weapons expert saying Iraq HAD NO WMD SINCE 1994, obviously YOU know things THEY don't!

[Ms. Clio]

16. That's not what is "pretty obvious" to me n/t

[LynnTheDem]

17. Is it that stench

of a freeper?

[Ms. Clio]

18. Now, now, Lynn, it's against the rules here to call someone that

But if it wasn't....

[LynnTheDem]

19. But I didn't

I didn't call anyone a freeper...I only asked if there was a stench of. :)

[Ms. Clio]

20. ::::::sniff, sniff::::::

Follow your nose :)

[LynnTheDem]

21. The same poster

who said the US military doesn't take hostages.

Yes, actually, the US military DOES take hostages;

WaPo

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence.

Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in."

Hostage taking. Violation of the GCs. War crime.

A progressive that doesn't know about the US military hostage-taking or that Iraq hasn't had any "WMD" to give to Syria since 1994, or that the entire "WMD to Syria" story is blatantly ridiculous??? Hmmmmmm. ::::sniff, sniff::::

[Ms. Clio]

34. Yes, I know, I engaged him there, too

Excellent cite from a source that even most apologists have difficulty discounting, too.

If it's not clear, I do agree with you completely. :)

[secdiego]

43. You want Goofy Grape or Cheery Cherry?

Huh?

[newyawker99]

32. Hi Flapjacks!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[NickB79]

36. Syria doesn't need any of Iraq's rusted, decayed WMD's

Anything Iraq had would have lost most of its toxicity after years of storage, even under ideal conditions, since they've had almost no capacity for new production in the past decade. Syria, on the other hand, has been known to have several advanced chemical weapons plants for many years now that are still fully operational and staffed. Why does Syria even want any of Saddam's leftovers when they can produce all they want on their own? Why risk being caught accepting the truck convoy needed to move the Iraqi WMD's to Syria (btw, if Iraq did move WMD's over the border, why didn't our UAV's, planes and spy satellites pick them up? And why didn't Saddam use them in defense?)?

There are so many holes in the WMD's-to-Syria hypothesis that it's laughable.

[Sterling]

38. Thats funny, I think you just posted something seriously that

someone else just posted as a joke. lol.

[struggle4progress]

22. Might just be a covert administrative trial balloon. Those guys ...

... really aren't very original.

For about 18 months, we heard "Omigod! WMD! Syria! Omigod! WMD! Iran!"

Lately, it's been "Omigod! Young sex slaves! Cuba! Omigod! Young sex slaves! Venezuela!"

So suddenly hearing "Omigod! WMD! Syria!" again doesn't necessarily convince me.

This, after all, is largely the same crowd that was trying to convince us in the mid-80's that bee pollen was a nefarious Soviet "yellow rain."

[gottaB]

23. this is the second allegation of chemical attacks in Darfur

Sudan villagers allege poison bombings, by Levon Sevunts.

I won't believe it till I hear it from sources I trust, but I won't rule it out.

Here is die Welt's story: Syrien testet chemische Waffen an Sudanern, by Jacques Schuster.

[Eugene]

24. Confirmation?

This story may be true, but I have to be skeptical.
These unnamed security sources cite unnamed witnesses.
They go on to spill sensitive and very highly placed
intelligence about Syrian and Sudanese armed forces.
If this is for real, they have endangered their source.
An extremely dumb move.

Sudan neatly cleans up after a chemical attack only
to show the bodies to witnesses eager to talk?
Syria signs its own death warrant in
an exercise of questionable military value?

Observers are present on the ground in Darfur.
They should be able to confirm the attack
through surviving witnesses or evidence
(like dead animals and birds) at the scene.

Without confirmation this sounds like propaganda.

[Nihil]

25. We have a winner!

As you (and others) say, there are many scientific tests to determine
whether or not such weapons have been deployed ... but even then, it
must be shown to be genuine, not simply "evidence" of the Colin Powell
kind.

The first thing that puts me off that report is the use of the phrase
"citing unnamed western security sources". We all know how reliable
and impartial such sources have been in the past.

Nihil

[secdiego]

44. Agree

I prefer "Eastern" sources, myself.

[Romulus]

27. same "unnamed sources"

that spawned the whole Saddam yellow(sheet)cake myth?

I'll wait for some other verification of this story, thank you.

[gottaB]

29. Another allegation

Sudan chemical weapons allegations from Norway, Germany....

NB, the writers of this piece claim "the NRA is the first-ever source alleging Khartoum's use of chemical weapons against its own population." In fact such allegations predate the NRA allegations by at least 10 years. If memory fails, google is your friend.

[The Stranger]

30. PNAC REPORTING . . .

" . . . unnamed western security sources . . . "

[Radical Liberal]

33. Not surprised

I wouldn't be surprised by this. This is the same nation that still practices slavery against black africans.

[struggle4progress]

37. Berlin questions chemical weapons report in Dafur

15 September 2004
BERLIN - German intelligence sources said Wednesday they had no information which could confirm a report claiming Syria had tested chemical weapons in cooperation with the government of Sudan on black Africans in Sudan's troubled Darfur region.

Germany's Die Welt newspaper - citing "Western intelligence reports" - said dozens of people were killed in the tests carried out from last May. <snip>

"We find the details very surprising and would have evaluated them differently," said a German intelligence source speaking on the condition of anonymity. <snip>

The U.S. embassy in Berlin also declined to comment on the story, saying there would probably be a response in Washington later Wednesday.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=11846&name=Berlin+questions+chemical+weapons+report+in+Dafur

[gottaB]

39. anybody read Arabic?

What are the statements made at http://www.elaph.com ?

[gottaB]

40. Boucher's statement

Question: Anything on German media charges that Syria has transferred chemical weapons to Sudanese government, and/or that same have been used by Government of Syria against populations/rebels?

Answer: We have seen the press reports and are not aware of any corroboration of the transfer of Syrian chemical weapons to Sudan. There have been reports for several years alleging use of chemical weapons in Sudan. None of these have been corroborated. We will, of course, follow up on this latest allegation.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2004/36224.htm

[struggle4progress]

45. I'm guessing the Administration decided this particular trial balloon ...

... won't fly.

[gottaB]

46. perhaps, but I'll tell you why I think the allegation merits attention

More than a decade ago I asked an honest woman from the southern part of Sudan if it was true that the government dropped mustard gas on people. Yes, she said, she believed it was true. She had heard such stories, although her firsthand experience with the government's wrath was limited to conventional bombings and shootings.

That's hearsay, of course. I wouldn't expect you or others to believe it, but I do expect people to know that many such allegations have been made against the government of Sudan over the last 15 years. The tendency to discount such stories because they have not been confirmed by outside experts, and/or because they have a propaganda value, ought to be weighed against the difficulty of obtaining reliable information from the war zones in Sudan, and against the real value in the present media environment of yet another tale of brutality on the part of Sudan's government.

The most plausible element of the story published by die Welt is the suggestion that the government of Sudan has no compunctions about massacring its non-Arab citizens in Darfur. If it is a "trial balloon," clearly the target is Syria. I do not know enough about Syria's military or its foreign relations to say whether or not this is a credible kind of allegation.

As for the administration floating a trial balloon and then shooting it down, I think that if the allegation is completely bogus then it's rather a case of a neocon intelligence official spreading dirt about Syria and the State Department declining to confirm it. I doubt this made a into a pdb, or that there was any coordination between State and other agencies in this matter.

[struggle4progress]

49. I'm not seeing much Administration enthusiasm for preventing ...

... mass murder in the Sudan. So I'm really not expecting the Administration to beat the war drums and wail about Darfar.

Of course, allegations of poison gas use deserve attention, and I certainly didn't intend to suggest that the Sudanese government wasn't attacking its own citizens nor even that it wasn't attacking them with poison gas.

My intent was simply to note the possibility that this story was a trial balloon directed (exactly as you state) at Syria. The fact that Moon's Washington Times is one of the few sources reporting the story tends to increase my suspicion, since in their twenty-year existence they seem never to have been much concerned with human rights, although they have repeatedly served as a bullhorn for rightwing propaganda.

I have become cynical about DC, where quite a lot seems to happen in unofficial ways. You are probably correct that this isn't reflected in any pdb, but "loose cannon" neocons seems to me an unlikely hypothesis, since the current Administration is very message-disciplined and values loyal team players highly.

Intuition is, of course, an uncertain guide, but I'd guess this was a careful probe of public reaction.

[reorg]

47. look at the source

Die Welt, the conservative "flagship" of the Springer concern, is probably the closest you can get if you try and find a neo-conservative newspaper in Germany.

Springer was an earlier, German version of Ruport Murdoch. Founder of the only successful gutter press daily in Germany, "Bild", an inexhaustible source of Limbaugh-style lies and pure, unadulterated filth, he raised the ire of the "extra-parliamentarian" opposition in 1968 when one such unending propaganda campaign against the oppositional student leader, Rudi Dutschke, inspired some imbecile dumbshit to shoot him. Interestingly, though, Springer had always been a staunch supporter of Israel in all respects and was praised and decorated by the state of Israel for this.

Mr. Schuster, a young up-and-comer when he got his job as "Die Welt" foreign-policy chief editor a few years ago, judging from his articles and interviews, also seems to entertain good relations with representatives of the state of Israel. See e. g. his interview with Israel's foreign minister, in which the assertion is made that Isral's security situation is better now since the US invaded Iraq (and Schuster would never talk back on this one, of course). Arafat is always wrong, Putin, the "mysterious riddle", on the other hand, should enter into negotiations with the Chechen terrorists soon etc.

He is always a staunch supporter of the conservative line, a perfect mouthpiece for fawning German trans-atlantics, mostly represented by the scandal-ridden CDU and FDP. Commenting on the UN draft resolution on Iraq in June of this year he was frolicking: "Finally there is some good news to emerge from Iraq ... Now even the Europeans seem unwilling to put any more obstacles in the way of the US and the new government in Iraq. The Germans have even promised to help the Iraqi leadership ..."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1231029,00.html



Schuster's latest revelation (before this one on Syria and Sudan), also delivered to him by certain "intelligence sources", came in an article of July 2002. Egypt was about to aquire ABC weapons, he told the world: "Cairo Wants to Build Nuclear Bomb; Egypt is Said to Be about to Enrich Uranium with Help from China and to Purchase Long-Range Missiles," Die Welt, 22 June 2002.

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Egypt/Nuclear/1697_1743.html
http://www.friedensnews.at/konflikte/aegypten/ (in German)

Uhuh. See that bad, bad bogeyman?

>>U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton is expected to visit Israel in the coming days to discuss ways to curb the threat of nuclear proliferation in the Middle East, Ha’aretz reported today. The United States has no concerns about Egypt in terms of nuclear weapons, a U.S. official said, calling the Die Welt report “disinformation.” <<

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2002/7/2/6p.html


Like so many political commentators, he gets in serious trouble when trying to evoke feelings. Waxing poetical, he wrote on the first anniversary of 9/11:

"There are memories that rise like a shortness of breath. You cannot escape them. They follow you like a guard follows a prisoner. The images of 9/11 have created this burden of the past und will carve themselves deep into our collective memory. Nothing is like them. Nothing is capable to replace them, since no event within the last five decades approximates what happened one year ago."


Sure. I guess we are likely to see a genocide trial against Osama soon.

--------------------------------------------------------------
German original:
Es gibt Erinnerungen, die steigen auf wie eine Atemnot. Entgehen kann man ihnen nicht. Sie folgen einem wie der Wächter dem Gefangenen. Die Bilder des 11. September haben diese Last der Vergangenheit geschaffen und werden sich tief in das kollektive Gedächtnis graben. Nichts gleicht ihnen. Nichts vermag sie zu verdrängen, weil kein Ereignis der letzten fünf Dekaden heranreicht an das, was vor einem Jahr geschah.

http://www.tendenzen.de/news/baktuell0902.htm

[LSK]

50. round1: Iraq, round2: Iran, Round3:Syria

Keep drinking the koolaide America....