German town admits lynching of US airmen

[emad]

Times online snip
From Roger Boyes in Berlin
http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,144145,00.jpg
THE murder of six unarmed American airmen by an angry mob in the last summer of the Second World War was remembered by a German town yesterday, ending more than half a century of secrecy. The men had baled out of a burning aircraft in August 1944. The badly injured radio operator was taken to hospital and the Germans took the eight other airmen by train to a prisoner of war camp north of Frankfurt. The route led through Rüsselsheim.

There they were set upon by a crowd of more than a hundred people, including housewives and workers from a nearby factory using milk churns, bomb rubble and hammers. A Nazi official finished off six of the airmen with bullets in the head, to the general applause of the mob. Two of the Americans survived by pretending to be dead. After the war the US Army sentenced five of the mob to death and five others to long jail sentences. Yesterday the town of Rüsselsheim, near Frankfurt, fell silent in remembrance.

“For 57 years no one talked openly about these events,” said Dagmar Eichhorn, who has been the moving force behind the memorial unveiled yesterday. It features a fragment of wall engraved with the portraits of the six victims. The ceremony was attended by one of the two American airmen who survived the beatings by feigning death, Gene Sidney Brown, and at least three relatives of the killers. “I don’t want to say their names,” said Frau Eichhorn. “It was a trauma for the whole town because there were plenty of people not on trial. You see this in all of Germany — the story is not spoken.”

The American B24 Liberator was shot down on August 24, 1944, after a bombing run on Hanover. On the previous night the Royal Air Force had bombed large parts of Rüsselsheim, killing mainly slave labourers denied access to air-raid shelters. But local people were furious. The rail line was damaged and the airmen had to be marched across town, many of its buildings still smouldering, to another station. As they passed the market square, a shopkeeper, Kathe Reinhardt, shouted: “Tear them to pieces!” The crowd took up the call and pelted the airmen with stones and bottles. The men were chased through the town, battered by milk churns and building tools until they collapsed unconscious in Graben Street — where the memorial was unveiled yesterday.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-1234237,00.html

[Endangered Specie]

1. I dont understand how the death of 6 American Airmen

get equal or more press coverage then, say, the Anniversery of Dresden, or, even Stalingrad. How about the 900-some day siege of Leningrad??

edit:
I guess Stalin was right...
"The death of one is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

2. If the Nazis had won WWII, those same townspeople would have....

...been viewed as heroes, avenging the deaths caused by the Allied bombing campaign over Germany.

Just proves the old adage, "Winners write the history books".

[Endangered Specie]

3. We would have done the same thing if German airmen

parchuted into an american town after a bombing raid.

[Radius]

5. No

We captured german non uniformed agents, imprisoned some and shot others. As allowed under the geneva conventions. Do not allow your opinions of the current administration to poison your views of history.

Uniformed combatants must be afforded prisoner of war status. We took Germans prisoners, as well as Japanese.

Japan murdered and tortured thousands of POW's in bataan and all across the pacific. They killed 6 million Chinese civilians and used others for bio-weapons research.

Do not equate the United States in WW2 to Nazi Germany or Japan. Even revisionist historians will not make that connection.

[babylon_system]

7. The US government also incinerated hundreds of thousands of civilians

in two nuclear attacks on Japanese cities.

You compare the capture and execution of German spies by the US government with a mob rampage against US airmen captutred in germany. Why not compare US treatment of POWs with German treatment of POWs?
If Germans were bombing American cities to smithereens, killing hundred of thousands upon thousands of civilians, you can bet that mobs would lynch German airmen too, if any were ever to fall in their hands.

Your holier-than-thou arguments are arrogant and sickening.

The United States is worse than Germany and Japan because they stopped being fascist imperialists after WWII, whereas the USA is still killing innocent people in foreign wars of imperialism TODAY.

[Massacure]

14. Those atoms bombs were no more devastating than 1000 planes with firebombs

The effect is the same. The entire city gets destroyed. You just lose less U.S. airmen.

If they had laser guided bombs, it would be a different story, but they didn't back then. Sure the U.S. does wrong too, but the atom bomb wasn't one of them, IMO.

[babylon_system]

18. I guess laser guided bombs make the Iraq war OK too

in your book.

[Massacure]

19. Iraq didn't declare war on us first.

[babylon_system]

23. So then they should have the right to nuke the USA

according to your logic.

[Massacure]

83. Where did I say they have the right to nuke the U.S.?

Besides, Iraq doesn't have nukes.

[bpilgrim]

28. Not True

those bombs KILLED more AFTER it exploded then it did when it first dentonated.

hiroshima has had almost a quarter MILLION people killed in total though it is estimated that the intial blast killed less than 100k.

this is the bomb that keeps on giving even reach up into the womb to KILL and DISFIGURE.

think about it...

peace

[Radius]

33. Bataan..

If anyone deserved to be nuked it was the japaneese in ww2. An invasion would have killed an estimated million japaneese and god knows how many americans. You cant view ww2 in todays pc, no civilian harmed approach to war. WW2 wan fought as an open war by both sides. People never stopped living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Given the chance Japan would have been happy to nuke us. Make no mistake, if the bomb was online before VE day the germans would have got nuked as well.

It ended the war before the soviets could take ground positions and split up japan like germany was split.

Different war, different society, different rules.

[Javaman]

64. Japan had an active atomic bomb program...

However much like the Germans, they were persuing the heavy water theory. It would have taken years for them to perfect if ever.
The basic reason we were able to build one in a relitively short time was for two reasons 1) many of the scientists that worked on it, were Jews from Europe that escaped Hitlers oppression and 2) we had the over welming resorces to do it.
Theorizing about a bomb, whether it's atomic or hydrogen, is one thing, making one is entirely different story.
Read the book "Dark Sun", by Richard Rhodes. It will give you everything you wanted to know about the atomic bomb but were afraid to ask.

[Radius]

66. Brilliant Book, Rhodes wrote The Making Of the Atomic Bomb

Knowing the history behing events is critical to discussing them in an intelligent way. No matter your position.

[bpilgrim]

88. we NUKED a DEFEATED about to surrender nation's CITIES CIVILIAN POPULATION

TWICE that my friend is TERRORISM and NOBODY 'deserves' it.

and it WASN'T necessary to end the war.

* In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:

(T)he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

In being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. (THE DECISION, p. 3.)

more...
http://www.doug-long.com/ga1.htm

psst... pass the word

peace

[barb162]

99. only problem with this theory

is how come Hirohito or the Japanese military did not surrender after the FIRST BOMB was dropped. Fact is they were not going to surrender. And why the hell should the US have risked losing thousands of US servicemen invading Japan.

WHat weapon, by the way, is not barbarous.

[Massacure]

87. They didn't know that it was going to leave radiation for years to come

They made a decision based on their best intelligence at that time.

[bpilgrim]

89. NONSENSE

you think our scientist who created the bomb were not aware of what they were working with?

peace

[Massacure]

90. You think they would purposely detonate a bomb in Arizona

Knowing people would die downwind?

[bpilgrim]

91. they did

btw: they KNEW that any survivers in japan would be CONTAMINATED.

if they can NUKE a defeated and trying to surrender nation's cities filled with CIVILIANS... TWICE! i certainly can believe they use US as GUINEA PIGS, yes.



peace

[girl gone mad]

120. No, they were not aware.

Many of the Manhattan Project scientists ended up dying of cancer because of their exposure to radiation. Feynman comes to mind.

The scientists did not know at the time. Nobody really knew. It was common for people to get their feet x-rayed every time they bought a new pair of shoes, and the shoe salesman did not protect themselves from eposure, either.

People did not associate radiation with cancer until after Hiroshima.

[tabasco]

15. There were hundreds of thousands of infantrymen ...

that would have been killed in a ground invasion of Japan. Were their lives more expendable than the Japanese (who as I recall attacked us first)?

I suppose we just should have surrendered rather than taking part in a violent war. Right. Got it.

Take a look at how many millions of people died as a result of German and Japanese imperialism in WWII, then examine your argument that the US is worse.

My wife's father was in the Wehrmacht at the end of the war. He fled to the west intending to be captured by the Americans, as did thousands of German troops. He was captured by Americans and treated well. His brother was capured by Soviets and never seen again.

It is appropriate that these citizens reflected on the murder of these airmen. The Germans are thoughtful and good people and are shamed by their country's actions during WWII. Just as we are shamed by our country's actions in Iraq.

[babylon_system]

17. A plethora of reasons are trotted out for nuking two Japanese cities

Just as there are loads of justifications for 9/11. I guess mass murder is A-OK unless you are on the receiving end, eh?

[Parche]

21. 2nuclear attacks

Those 2 nuclear attacks as you call them were
justified
We were at war and trying to end it
The Japanese were not going to give up


POW's have certain rights under the Geneva Convention no matter
which country has them
This was wrong, just like what the Japanese did to our POW's

[babylon_system]

22. Nuking 100,000s of civilians is an atrocity

Never can be justified by declaration of war or any other excuse no matter your guilty conscience / denial complex tells you.

[Parche]

29. nuke

They were bombing strategic locations, Hiroshima was a
military industrial city
Nagasaki, Sasebo were major Naval ports
Yes some civilians die in war, that is tragic
But there is no other way
The US did not start it, but we finished it

[Radius]

34. Exactly

You cant view ww2 or its tactics through todays approach to war. Japan started the war with a sneak attack, killed tens of thousands of pows in bataan and across the pacific and if anyone deserved to be nuked it was imperial japan.

Two 15kt bombs did much less damage than a full scale invasion would have done.

[DrWeird]

37. So you're saying the US deserves to be nuked.

The US started a war with Iraq in a preemptive sneak attack, killled tens of thousands of civilians, and tortured God-knows how many people to death at Abu Ghraib and other concentration camps.

[babylon_system]

38. Retail genocide, what a bargain!

No wonder American right-wing nuts fear WMDs. They know that if the rest of the world thinks like they do, America should be nuked!

[allemand]

84. "deserved to be nuked"

Horrible. Simply horrible.

[babylon_system]

36. That's the same logic used by Osama bin laden to justify 9/11

Good for you! Now you understand the "enemy" > It is you.

[Radius]

41. correct, I understand completely

That is the most simple approach to war. Luckily for him and afganistan we no longer fight that way or they would have recieved a broadside from a ballistic missle submarine.

[babylon_system]

45. That's the beauty of asymmetric warfare

US nuclear/military superiority cannot defeat dispersed low-tech guerilla resistance or a well-developed anti-imperialist ideology.

[Radius]

50. Sure it can

We could just drop our restraints. We could have flooded the imam ali mosqe with VX or an opiate anelgesic gas (like the russian theatre) and killed every one inside. Every tactic has a counter tactic, yin yang kind of thing. It is a matter of determination and ends that are on the table.

Our capability to kill is there, it is unused. We do not fight current wars the way we fought ww2. The Germans tried this type of resistance as well as the japaneese in island warfare. Solution, we killed them. The allies killed millions of germans millitary and civillians. Eventually they got tired of dying. We won.

[babylon_system]

56. Yes, I'm sure the US could kill everyone who hates America

Until there was no one left to kill. That is considered victory to a moron.

Simple-minded warmongering weasels imagine that killing everyone in the Imam Ali mosque would be a military "success". Luckily, even the US military isn't that stupid because they realize that restraint is a matter of self-preservation. They know that killing everyone would have wider repercussions that ultimately prove destabilizing and destructive to US interests. Does the US really want to inflame and widen an all out war to all Shi'a in Iraq, all Iraqis, all Iranians, all Muslims, etc? I don't think so.

Pea-brained fascists have fantasies of US power and domination. They exude their kill 'em all machismo on other web forums. But in reality, US military power has its limits. al-Qaeda knows this and has successfully leveraged its limited resources against massive US military domination to create a deep division and hostility in the Muslim world and a backlash against US interests, even in Europe, that far exceeds al-Qaeda's military power. That's asymmetric warfare. US military power means very little because it can only succeed in battles against a conventional military opponent. In the meantime, the US is more isolated than ever and al-Qaeda is winning the more important ideological war.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylon_system]

68. hahaha, al-Qaeda hasn't affected your life?

I guess you aren't part of the US economy.

[Radius]

69. Yep

My job is stable, I'm better off than when I graduated from school. My wife had no problem finding job when we moved. I have a very low cost home loan and pay less than I paid in rent when I was in school. Honestly I have not suffered any economic hardship.(knock wood)

This is not true for everyone, I know. I work for a large manufacturing company and we have not laid off people for economic reasons.

The small money I put into stocks like IBM, CA and Intel after the market hit do ok. Lucky timing.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radius]

40. Sorry

It can, it was, and it is justafied to this day. This was total war, civillians were part of a system that supported combat against the allies. They worked in factories and grew food to feed soldiers. That was the way it was.

You can not look back at ww2 with todays approach to fighting war.

Did you know the japaneese killed 6 million civillians in china between 36 and 45?

[babylon_system]

43. Geneva Conventions were in effect even in WWII

Not that it mattered to the fascists on either side, as is still evident today.

[Radius]

52. Different war

The germans and Japaneese and were the agressors and set the terms. Japan was a non signatory and acted as such. Google bataan, death railroad, etc.

Sorry, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to disagree. But the reality is no one from the secret police is going to blow your brains out for it. I bet the SS was tolerant of dissent. They didn't just kill jews you know.

Dont compare ww2 with current wars it is incongruent.

[babylon_system]

59. The USA doesn't get a free nuclear atrocity because of Bataan

Don't patronize me with "go google this".
The USA committed atrocities. Nuclear attacks and fire bombing cities with women and children is inexcusable. It is fascist. It is sick. It is barbaric, shameful, and 100% evil. So are those who excuse and defend it and continuing US war crimes in Iraq.

[Radius]

62. Well

it appears we have reached an impasse. We could have burned them like we did tokyo and dresden. Personally, I think it saved life in the long run vs a invasion. We would have shelled their cities like berlin was shelled. How many cities were untouched because of the nukes?

The Japanese are still a great ally and buy the most advanced weapons systems we make and don't seem to hold a grudge.

Ones man atrocity is another's godsend.

Call the Hague and the UN and report the war crimes. When they get done trying milosivich(sp, to lazy to look it up) in 2012, maybe they will indict the pres..

Just out of curiosity, what is your nationality? Dont feel obliged to answer, I just can't quite get your perspective.

[babylon_system]

67. American, born and raised

Yours?

[Radius]

70. American

Born NYC, moved with my parents job demands,middle class parents, public school. Live in RTP, near raleigh.

Your view of america seems so harsh. I know we are far from perfect but compared to some of the countries I have traveled to there is a lot we have most people take for granted.


My neighbors are from Bangledesh and are amazed by our life and opportunity. This guy grew a business in 5 years that supports his family and he still sends money home.

I try to take a balanced look at what we have.

[babylon_system]

72. America is a great land of opportunity

built on a legacy of genocide against the Native Americans, slavery, 100+ years of imperialist wars, exploitation of immigrants and cheap foreign labor, and natural resources from bananas to oil stolen from indigenous people by rapacious multinational corporations operating under puppet governments installed by the CIA and US military.

God Bless America because we're going to need it as the inevitable payback keeps hitting the fan

[bpilgrim]

92. not to mention NAGASAKI

"Hiroshima is the 2nd most horrid word in the american lexicon succeeded only by NAGASAKI" - kurt vonnegut

:hi:

peace

[Radius]

101. Unless

You were an Infantryman who would have invaded the japanese homeland.

Relativity.

[Nightowl_2004]

60. I tend to agree with you

4 Years ago I had the honor of partaking in a Student Exchange program with my hometown's sister city...Wadayama, Japan. During the trip we made a point to visit Hiroshima and the sites there are DEEPLY moving and profound. I can not even describe the immense emotions you get when you visit The Nuclear Dome (where the bomb was detonated over)and I had a long talk with my hist-grandmother who lost 2 sons in WW2.

She said she never once held anything against the Americans for attacking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, That her people would have fought to the death in a ground invasion. Millions upon Millions of Japanese Civilians and Soldiers as well as Allied Troops, would have been killed in the struggle. Not too mention that we know Russia was on the brink of landing in the North....

If the bomb had not been dropped, most of Japan would have been wiped out fighting to the bitter end against a ground invasion and then, what was left of post-war Japan would have been split like Germany. We would have had to deal with "North Japan" "South Japan" and a divided Tokyo, just like in Europe...

[Javaman]

63. As many people that were killed by the atomic bombs...

many scores more were killed during the fire bombing of Tokyo, Hamburg and dresden.
Read about General LeMay, he was a scary guy.

[Radius]

65. BTW Dresden was a British operation.(NT)

[Endangered Specie]

8. I think you misinterpreted what I said...

I implied that American citizens might have done this IF, the German Luftwaffe were actually flying over and bombing U.S. Cities and U.S Civilian populations (which they didnt)...

And speaking of comparing US to Nazi Germany... where do you think Hitler got the idea to segregate Jews in German society from, he modeled it after our segregation of blacks, furthermore, he was very fond of our euginics programs. This isnt revisionist history. Keep in mind that we managed to kill millions of German citizens in bombing raids.

People who think the US was all well and did no bad in WWII or in the 1930's and 40's in general are the ones reading revisionist (aka victor's) history.

[babylon_system]

10. Some people think the USA can do no wrong

"Why do they hate us?"

Is it because of our imperialist policies, raping and pillaging their countries, oppressing them by supporting racist Israel and repressive regimes?

"No, they hate us because they hate our freedom"

[renotyme]

46. and some think the US can do no right

neither position is supported by history

[Radius]

13. Hitler

killed 6 million jews and started a war that killed 20 million people. Most civillians. Do you have any historical refrence that leads you to believe hitler used the US as his model? I have a history minor and never saw that account.

Sorry that is how ww2 was fought, hitler managed to kill those civillians when he started a world war.

[MadHound]

24. Go read up on the relationship between Hitler and Henry Ford

Also go read up on the relationship between the Bush family and Hitler, along with several other American industrialists. If it wasn't for the abover mentioned people, Hitler wouldn't have been able to rise to power.

And then there is the fact that after WWII we took in literally thousands of German soldiers, who would have otherwise been convicted of war crimes. This was all done in the name of fighting communism, and expanding America's war science capability.

[Endangered Specie]

25. Don't Forget IBM.

[Radius]

Business

If a major war broke out today with any modern country IBM, Cisco, Ford, etc would have all supplied the "enemy".

IBM did not sell to the germans after the war. This is tin foil material.

[MadHound]

51. Well, it is showing that your history knowledge is indeed "minor"

Harriman Bros(in which W's grandfather and great grandfather were chief executives) was tried and convicted of trading with the enemy in 1942. They paid the fine, bought a couple of Congressmen, and continued to trade with the enemy until 1948. IBM provided the Nazis with both knowledge and materials through third parties throughout the war, thus enabling a greater loss of Jewish life in the concentration camps(this is why they have been under attack for reparations since the war). Ford continued to supply parts and knowhow for their German division(Opel) throughout the war, Henry Ford was a big fan of Hitler, and he also recieved Germany's highest civilian award for his anti-semetic work, presented to Ford by Hitler himself.

This isn't tinfoil material friend, this is fact. Many many people from America, including some of our leading industrialists, entertainers, and politicians enabled the rise of Nazi Germany. Many of these same people provided aid to the Nazis both directly and indirectly during the war, and bailed out literally thousands of war criminals after the war. This all gets whitewashed in both high school and college history, but if you go out and do a little research on your own, you will find out the truth. I suggest you do so.

[Endangered Specie]

53. "Minor" indeed... thanks for clearing that up.

Just because you have a minor in something doesnt mean you automatically "know" history, GPA needs to be considered too.

[Radius]

54. Link

Lets see a link from lexis nexis on the conviction and any reputable publisher or historical society on the IBM connection. Ford was an anti-semite

IBM has german owned facilities, which were nationalized by hitler and continued to work. IBM usa is now and was then a major defense contractor and works closely with the goverment. If malysia decided to start a war and nationalized intel assets, you cant claim Intel provided material support.

Your claim, you can do the research and post it or withdraw it. I await your responses with an open mind.

[MadHound]

73. OK, here you go friend

On IBM: IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation by Edwin Black
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607995/002-4077213-5043238>

On the Bush family connections to the Third Reich: American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670032646/002-4077213-5043238>

On Henry Ford and his connections to the Third Reich: Right-Wing Populism in America, Too Close for Comfort by Chris Berlet and Matthew Lyons <http://www.guilford.com/cgi-bin/cartscript.cgi?page=politics/berlet.htm&cart_id=>

As far as the deal worked out between the Japanese and Americans vis a vis war crime trials and human experimentation, well that information has hit the "mainstream", it was part of a program on the History Channel a couple of months ago. I also believed it is referred to in Iris Chang's book "The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II" <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465068359/002-4077213-5043238>
If you don't find the reference in that book, let me know and I'll dig up another. Right now I'm away from my home library, so I'm doing these references off the top of my head. Hope this helps.

On edit: Go read up about Project Paperclip and other OSS/CIA programs to relocate Germans, it is rather interesting.

[Endangered Specie]

93. Funny, the guy hasnt responded to this.

wonder why?

History minor, hah, I would get my money back.

[Radius]

94. Life

requires me to do other things. As much as I enjoy debating you I have other stuff to do. I'm out of town and can't hit the site all the time.

Now to the point.
First your book backs up what I said. An IBM subsidiary was responsible for this equipment. I will read it and draw my own conclusions. However during and after ww2 any collusion with germany or japan during war by anyone including ford would have meant high treason and the end of a rope. the 40's society would not have tolerated this. I never said ford was not an anti semite. However I have not seen a mainstream historical society of peer reviewed paper from a professor at a university that supports the claim ford supported hitler after the war.

People accused Lindberg of Nazi collusion, he was held in high regard in germany. However when the war started he flew combat missions against the axis.

Like I said earlier, if Malaysia nationalizes intel plants they cease to be intel.

You mentioned criminal charges, the standard for this is Lexis Nexis, they have all motions and indictments on file. Primary sources do not allow authors to take creative liberty.

I take anything written in a book with a grain of salt. You could use the swift vets as an example, sold as non fiction.

I will get the book from the library but a peer reviewed paper or historical society paper caries much more weight.

I appreciate your links and will review them. However I do disagree with the original premise.

[MadHound]

96. Well here you go contradicting yourself again

You claim that the book I referenced vis a vis IBM back up what you said, "First your book backs up what I said. An IBM subsidiary was responsible for this equipment.", yet in the next sentence you admit that you haven't read the book. How can you explain this discrepency?

Then you start running down my sources because they are books.:wtf: Most historians write books in addition to papers. Do you know anything about these authors, the historical research they've done, or the regard with which they are held in academia? I agree that books can be biased, but so can peer reviewed papers that are published by professors at university. Historical books are generally reviewed by peers, among other people before they're published. Trying to compare my sources to the Swifties book is a disingenous ploy that you are trying because I've so far trumped all of your erroneous claims. Likewise your claim of the Lexis Nexis database as being the "standard" is also faulty. The standard for criminal charges is actually viewing the criminal records themselves, and the sources that I mention have done so. Go look in the bibliography of these books, find the reference, and then go online to find the criminal court record to verify it. That, my friend, is THE standard.

Your sophmorish attempts at defining standards of proof smacks of the desperate attempts of a person who knows they don't have a leg to stand on. You claim to know oh so much about what these standards of proof are, yet it is obvious that you don't. Books such as the Rape of Nanking are the first works published ANYWHERE detailing the Japanese atrocities. Books such as American Dynasty rely on first hand interviews. And these methods are accepted throughout the historical and larger community of intellectuals. Your wish for peer reviewed journal articles is simply an attempt to set the bar unreachably high for anyone in a vain attempt to mask your own shortcomings. It is transparent and disenginous at best. If this is how you are going to conduct yourself in histroical debates, then it is probably a good thing that history remains a minor for you.

And finally, you keep wishing for me to prove my position, and to divulge sources. I have done so. But I have yet to see you back your own positions up with anything besides hyperbole and hot air. You are making some pretty bold claims, what are your sources? And yes, I will accept other reputable sources that aren't in a peer reviewed journal, or not in the Lexis Nexis database.

[Radius]

103. Books

Got no problem with your source. However I can't read a amazon link and rebut your position. I can not read and decide with a reference to a book not in front of me. If I did the first thing I would do is find its sources and go directly to them.

Books are fine, however books are only as good as the information used to write them. Swift Vet book is non-fiction, would you accept everything in it is god's truth. I doubt it. It is not backed by mainstream historical societies.

Lexis nexis is the standard for american legal action. Information listed in it can be easily used to call a local clerk of court and receive a copy of original documentation. You have not provided this. It is online, free at most libraries.

The rape of nanking is generally accepted and documented mainstream history. It does not need proving. It is documented by soldiers, victims and photographic evidence.

You claim Bushes gp was an indicted war criminal is not well known main stream history, back it up with the original source, court records.

As I said a nationalized IBM subsidiary worked with the nazis, they stole the plant. This does not mean IBM in NY continued a relationship with germany. When a country nationalizes another countries assets the relationship between the parent company ceases.

[Wolfetone]

78. How was Ford able to provide parts througout the war?

How could he trade with the enemy until 1948, when the war ended in 1945 and we were the occupiers?

I do know thatFord was a huge anti-semite and he did have dealings with Hitler and Germany, but I can't see how he could have done those two things above.

[MadHound]

79. Through intermediaries

Ford had divisions all over the world, and could supply parts, etc to any of them. It was simply a matter of shipping through a neutral country or two, and poof, it was clean. And the money made by Opel went straight to Sweden, all nice and neutral, and came out clean on the other side.

[Radius]

95. Jeepsand tanks.., Ford and the rest of the american companies

dedicated their capability to defense manufacturing. This concept is revisionist and not supported by historical societies or any doctoral work from any major university, ie credible sources who have reputations to uphold.

Swift Vets is proof anything can be sold as non-fiction. Crediblity is far more important.

Ford was indicted for murder in the pinto case and would have been indicted if it assisted germany, any american who did this would have been charged with high treason. The 40's were not tolerant of this behavior.

[MadHound]

98. Your faith is American industrialists and what you have been taught

Is touching. Misplaced, but touching. It is time that you expanded your intellectual horizons beyond the sterile walls of your ivory tower, and go out and do your OWN research into matters.

And besides, what I speak of isn't revisionist history, it was well known at the time, and among most enlightened individuals, well known now. I'm sorry that you have a hard time dealing with the reality of the matter, but that is your problem, not mine.

And it is really funny that you insist on placing the work of a student("doctoral work from any major university") above the work of a graduated, degreed intellectual. While doctoral work is in many cases correct, it is still the work of a doctoral student, and can also be quite wrong. Do you continue your foolish insistence of this standard because you yourself are a student? If so, then I suggest you stop such projection, for doctoral students are not the be all and end all of academia and intellectuals. There are people much more knowledgeable who have GRADUATED with a DEGREE and have much more EXPERIENCE than a doctoral student, and hence their work should be given more weight, all other matters being equal. You should stop this self glorifying projection before it causes you more embarassment.

[Radius]

100. Standards

There is non fiction and then there is non fiction. Most doctoral work is peer reviewed and published. This does not stop non mainstream ideas, it just filters out those that can not back up claims with historical documentation. Even then you get controversial ideas, based on real documentation. Interpretation is always a factor.

Historical societies and university historians have something to loose by making claims that they can not back up. Groups like the american historical association have put forward non mainstream ideas, such as Jefferson's black descendants( was not accepted and was considered rumor at the time), and used documentation to prove it.

I am not a student anymore and will read your documentation and consider its primary sources and make a judgment. Obviously I can not do that today. However IBM would be liable like Volkswagen and krupps if there were solid proof IBM usa participated in the holocaust. I have heard this bounced around for years, but have not seen any ruling in the favor of those suing IBM usa.

My point is when you make claims outside of historically accepted ideas be prepared to back them up with primary source documentation.

I still do not see and court movement linked about bush's family from lexis-nexis. If I did it would not discount the fact bush sr. was a combatant in ww2. Like people who attack kennedys for "rum running", its a distraction.

[Kellanved]

102. Ford isn't Opel; Opel is GM

Both Ford and GM had plants in Nazi Germany and operated them throughout the war. GM and Ford trucks were the backbone of the German Wehrmacht.
Their defense was that the Nazis would have seized the plants, so they gave the order to go along.
Of course Ford was very proud about his help and got a Nazi decoration for it and his Anti-Semitism.

[Radius]

104. Mercedes and VW

contributed as well. The issue is were american companies comitting high treason, a hanging offence, and selling parts to the germans?

Ford was an anti semite no doubt, but that does not make him guilty of high treason. Dislike of jews, pre war support of hitler, do not translate to supporting the axis.

Opel was german owned during the war. GM had keine part of opel in ww2.

[Kellanved]

105. Of course

I merely pointed out that Opel was not part of Ford, but of GM. It was bought by GM in 1929. Unless you have sources better than mine, I'd say 1929 was before the war. Ford had it's own plants in Germany (named "Ford").

The ownership did not go back to Germany during the war. The question whatever or not GM had a choice in supplying the Wehrmacht with the Blitz truck aside, one thing is pretty much proven: both Ford and GM knew that they were selling arms to Germany, despite the Versailles treaty forbidding Germany's rearmament.



Technically Volkswagen got founded in 1960; prior to that it was a state-owned, Nazi-founded plant. The German industry's guilt is without question. Their excuses however are the same as the one used by GM, Ford and many others: we had no choice.

Edited for spelling

[Radius]

106. GM and Ford,

Had assets stolen in Europe. There were BP intersts in Iran when the mullahs took over. It would be false to say BP did business there right after the overthrow. There assets were removed from their control. BP may be their now on their own, don't know.

You are correct about opel and gm. I stand corrected.

GM and Ford lost control of their assets, they could not liquidate them for cash, so they were not complicit for their use. Machines run by germans were responsible for their output.

For the parts theory, what parts was Henry Ford supplying that the Germans could not make on their own?

Their manufacturing capability during the beginning of the war was extensive? Feul and rubber were their main imports along with nitrates and the like.

[Kellanved]

107. stolen?

Probably. However the plants (both Ford's and GM's) continued producing arms throughout the war, and profits reached their respective owners.
The plants never were seized, nor their managements completely replaced.

I have never even heard of a "part theory".

[Radius]

109. It would

be very interesting to see a nationalized goverment allowing money to flow back to the US during a world war. I can not document this off hand but doubt profit was taken by gm. Opel plants were bombed in '44, mostly destroyed. GM had no ability to sell their plants, If I owned a plant in a country about to be bombed flat by the 8th airforce I would sell rather than take a loss.

Parts, someone claimed Henry Ford continued to supply parts after the war started.

Any documentation you could provide on GM taking profits during the war would be interesting since it would have been illegal. We are talking death penalty offences in a time of war.

[Kellanved]

116. you do have a point

Post 1942 there is AFAIK indeed no indication of GM gaining profits from the Rüsselsheim and Brandenburg plants.

The questionable period is between the Hitler's raise to power and Americas entry into the war. Prior to the war, while still in total control if their plants, GM and Ford were among the biggest German arms manufacturers; other companies (like ITT) bought shares in German weapon makers.

[neverborn]

27. Mein Fuhrer! I can walk!

[Radius]

31. you mean

The guys who built the saturn 5 rocket that put men on the moon?
Of course we took their technology, so did the russians.

[MadHound]

47. It isn't just a matter of taking their technology

We snatched Nazis out of the hands of the war crimes tribunals. People like Werner Von Braun got a free pass because we wanted their technical expertise. People like Klaus Barby were given sanctuary because they turned their efforts to battling communists. And this wasn't just one or two isolated cases, there were literally thousands of cases like this. Hell, George HW Bush had eighteen known Nazis in his administration.

Technology is the spoils of war, but war criminals should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Another little tidbit for you to mull over. While we had the high profile German war crime tribunal in Nuemberg, that involved hundred of defendants, we didn't have anything near like that for the Japanese, even though they committed many of the same atrocities as the Germans. You know why? Because we let many of the Japanese off in exchange for turning over all of the human experimintation research the Japanese did, research that was later incorporated into various American technologies.

[Radius]

58. Wrong again

We did not get an unconditional surrender from the Japaneese. The defendants could not call the emperor, who we let remain, to the stand to defend them. Some got off when they should have swung.

Link your claim to a published peer reviewed paper or to a historical society and I will give it a fair look.

We hanged plenty of japaneese, people here didn't follow it as close as nuremburg because tha japaneese names were hard to understand and sounded similar.

[MadHound]

76. I never claimed anything about "an unconditional surrender"

In fact if you look at my statement carefully, you will notice that what I state is certainly a condition. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth, or place strawman arguements into place.

If you will look at my post #73, you will see the source I cite for my information.

[Parche]

82. Japanese

Yamashita, Tojo, Abe come to mind who were all found guilty
of atrocities

[RummyTheDummy]

35. And I suppose you think

Patton making German civilians bury concentration camp victims wasn't politically correct either.

[Endangered Specie]

55. What?

did you reply to the right post... If so, explain.

[RummyTheDummy]

86. Sorry

Replied to wrong post.

[SOS]

11. More to the story....

"Other Losses" is a brilliant investigation into one of the most hideous and least publicized war crimes perpetrated this century.
At the end of World War II, more than 5 million German prisoners of war (POWs) were interned in American and French prisoner of war camps primarily located in Europe. Owing to intentionally cruel prison camp conditions, nearly 1 million German POWs died from starvation, disease, overcrowding, and exposure.

Most of the deaths occurred in American prison camps. Some witnesses observed that the starving German POWs resembled the gaunt prisoners discovered when the Nazi death camps of Buchenwald and Dachau were liberated. In the U.S. Army's weekly POW reports, the truth about deaths in American prison camps was concealed under the euphemistic heading "Other Losses."

http://perc.ca/PEN/1993-11/review3.html

[Endangered Specie]

26. Dont forget the German POW's on the Russian side...

Only half of something like 2-3 million survived THAT ordeal. German officers and leaders tried to delay or insert a term of surrender to buy time to get German soldiers and civilians into Western occupied area, rather than be captured by the Soviets.

[Kellanved]

85. I don't think so

This is revisionist history. While there are many numbers in circulation about the deaths in the American/French Rheinwiesen camps, the credible ones are between 10,000 and 100,000 POWs (which is about the same mortality as among the civilian population).
There are many authors putting the number higher - some to get attention, others to pursue a political, often Neo-nazi, agenda.
Fact is that the Rheinwiesen camps were very unlike the conditions in the US-based POW camps, yet far better than Nazi or Soviet operated camps.

[Radius]

110. The

Soviets worked german prisoners of war to death in the gulags. I dnot have a link to numbers but it is widley known the soviets killed a huge number of German Pows.

[krkaufman]

12. Don't jump to "equate" from a comparison.

And, yes, Americans violated the "rules" during WW2, as well, and saying so does not equate two armies, governments or people -- as a whole.

We interred our own people, so I'm fairly confident that some group of Americans could have acted similarly had a foreign fighter parachuted into a US town just bombed. We've proven ourselves capable of such acts many times over, both before and after WW2.

And we've also proven ourselves beyond it. It really depends on where and when your feet hit the ground.

[DrWeird]

20. How ironic.

You repeat this phony "non-uniformed combatant" phrase which is used to justify the torturing, murdering, and false imprisonment of civilians and then say the US is nothing like Nazi Germany.

[Karenina]

49. Unfickenglaublich, eh?

PROPAGANDA DISTRACTION. Instead of concentrating on the card-carrying nazis who are poised to MURDER MILLIONS, let's all talk about folks who were PISSED AS HELL FOR GETTING BOMBED. Gimme a break.

[RaRa]

30. Don't equate, but

let's not assume that all were saints. My mother grew up in East Germany and remembers the Americans hauling off civilians into the nearby forrest and those men were never seen again (read murdered).
That said, she also recalls be grateful the Americans were there, and they were kind to them for the most part. But war crimes happen just about everytime there's war, on all sides as we are sadly being reminded of today.

[Nordic]

113. uh, you obviously aren't paying attention

The poster said "if our towns were being bombed"

You said "no" to a hypothetical and backed it up with facts about what DID happen.

What DID happen has nothing to do WHATSOEVER with the hypothetical.

I will agree with the poster's assertion that:

If an American town was being bombed by Germans, and the Germans bailed out and parachuted into said town, citizens of said town, BEING HUMAN BEINGS, could have easily done the same thing to the German soldiers as the German citizens of this town did to the US airmen.

Duh.

This isn't about POLITICS, this is about human nature. This is about human beings reacting to a situation.

People in a spontaneous lynch mob don't give a flying fuck about POLITICS.

[JVS]

6. There was an English town that lynched a Polish pilot

who was fighting on their own side because his uniform looked different, he didn't speak English and they thought he was a German. Paul Fussel's "Wartime" has the story.

[rastignac5]

75. Which is why German soldiers were praying to God they could

surrender to Allied forces rather than Soviet forces. Because American troops were the same as Nazis.

Equating America with Nazi Germany is ignorant and simpleminded.

[JohnKleeb]

4. That Stalin quote is the truth

I hate the man but he had some good quotes.

[Jack_DeLeon]

57. I concur...

[rocktivity]

9. (Quick prayer before clicking) Please let this be a World War II story

WHEW!!!!

:headbang:
rocknation

[henslee]

16. An old guy I know was assigned to a POW transport ship. He said

they used to toss germans overboard in the middle of the night at sea.
Pretty gnarly. War is hell.

[Logansquare]

80. A friend of my dad says they used to shoot surrendering Germans

I think this was during the Battle of the Bulge--they had no place to take prisoners, so they shot them.

[RummyTheDummy]

32. We shouldn't have fought Hitler in the first place

I've actually heard that from some of the more creative revisionist history buffs here. Amazing.

[Radius]

39. Grandparents

I believe a lot of people have never had any contact with people who fought in WW2. My grandfathers fought and so did their brothers. Perspective is very important when discussing WW2.

[RummyTheDummy]

42. I totally agree and......

I've had the pleasure of talking to a pretty good number of WWII combat vets in my lifetime. As a boy, I used to have a neighbor who fought in Italy and he would show me the shrapnel they took out of his leg and some other memorobilia. He was a great old man who was just doing his duty at the time. He was also an active Dem.

So many here seek out to savage WWII veterans and project their current (and justified) hatred of our current foreign policy on that era and those people. Misguided and sad.

[Radius]

44. Grandparents

Were/are yellow dog dems. Political opinions were not a factor in WW2, it was beyond that. Revisionism is cultural genocide and most major institutions of learning view it as such.

WW2 is in no way comparble to todays millitary operations.

[RummyTheDummy]

48. You're right

I merely pointed that out b/c the person in question influenced me greatly and I learned more about WWII from him and the others I came across than anything in high school or college courses. My own grandfather fought at Guadalcanal. Sadly he died before I was born.

Most of the vitriol towards WWII vets here centers on Japan and the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, but it still amazes me to see people question our involvement in the European theatre. They also ignore the two most obvious facts 1-A full scale invasion of Japan would have been disasterous to both sides. 2- The US was very active in helping Japan put the pieces back together. Japan would never have become the economic power it became had it not been for that, or at least it would have taken much longer.

THanks for your perspective. It's needed here.

[Gyre]

77. They must've envied us our freedom.

I know I do.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

81. This was the "Pontiac" or "Flint" of Germany...big GM town.

General Motors...they where THE employer...the big Opel assembly lines where there.

The "nearby factory" in the article was probably the Opel plant.

Yet, its kind of interesting to think given the massive deadly air raids, that both sides endured, that more of this didnt happen.

[chromotone]

97. My mom's first husband was shot down over Germany during WWII

He too was part of a bomber crew. Although he parachuted to safety, he was set upon by German citizens and killed. I have no reason to believe it was this incident since I imagine this happened more than once.

My Mom never talk about this but I remember seeing newsclippings decades ago in an old trunk in our attic.

[Nordic]

108. when I was a kid in Germany

(the child of American parents) one time we went to this really quaint little town that had been 100% reconstructed in all its quaintness after being flattened by American bombing strikes in WWII.

My Mom, who was the sweetest, most unassuming woman, tried to go into a shop run by a very old German woman.

The woman saw that my Mom was an American and swiftly and angrily kicked her out of the shop. No Americans, she said. She was still very angry about her town being flattened. Who knows how many loved ones of hers were killed back then.

Even though I was only eight years old, I completely understood this woman's sentiments. Even though it was my own Mom she kicked out of the store, even though I knew Hitler was bad, I completely understood. I didn't hold it against her.

War should only be a last resort.

[Radius]

111. Misplaced

She should blame der furher for her loss. I guess she would kick a brit out too.

I have never met a german who publicly supported the german side of the war or blamed america for fighting and killing germans in ww2.

[Nordic]

112. you're very confused

This woman's town had been flattened by Americans.

She undoubtedly lost loved ones in said bombing.

At the time this happened, she hated Americans.

And you're JUDGING HER?

What the hell is wrong with you?

The point is that her hatred was a result of a WAR. Not "oh, golly, it's really great that the Americans flattened my town and killed my family, it was all in the greater good."

Do you think she CARED about who was right and wrong when her (presumably) family was killed?

You sound like one of those republicans who say this sort of thing is okay because it resulted in the "liberation" of the Iraqis and the end to Saddam:

Do you think this little girl's mother cares about who's right and who's wrong:

[Radius]

117. Remember the name of the town?

I can tell you who ran the operation Americans or British.
Lots of towns were flattened in europe and the UK. I'm sure there are plenty of british who had family die in the bombing in england who hate just as much. I've been to stalingrad, met people from all over, including germans. No one seemed to hate them. Germans killed close to a million civillians and soldiers in stalingrad. Who is to blame there?

I did not say she had suffered no loss but, the us did not start ww2, it was late coming into it. The germans did plenty of flattening and recieved plenty in return. your picture while moving has nothing to do with ww2 or the way it was fought.

You can not apply todays concepts of how war is fought to ww2, ww1, or the battle of carthage or waterloo for that matter.

Has nothing to do with Iraq, you are confused and projecting todays rules onto a historical event.

You should judge her for her motivation and myopic view of the war. My grandparents both fought and lost friends in ww2 and would not throw a german or japanese person out of their house. If we treated the germans with the same logic after the war there would have been no marshall plan.

[Nordic]

114. so tell me when you lived in Germany

??

[Radius]

118. Summer of 93, Munich. Nice people(NT)

[Nordic]

119. me -- early 70's. The people I'm talking about are probably all dead now

And yes, most Germans were very nice to us Americans. I'm talking about a few that weren't.

My point is one of empathy, and one that addresses what's fundamentally wrong with war.

It wasn't about assigning blame. It was about understandiing. Something in short supply these days.

[Nordic]

115. this is about human nature, nothing to do with politics

The airmen who bailed out could have been from anywhere, and bombing the town for ANY reason, the fact is, they were bombing this town and the people of the town weren't real happy about it.

I don't think an angry vengeful lynch mob really thinks very much about its political views.

We're talking about a very animalistic response to a situation.

It's silly to argue the politics of it. It just doesn't matter.

[Radius]

121. agree

I believe hatred is depressing. I enjoyed visiting different places in germany and have visited other countries since.

Everyone left and right should spend timoverseas to get a different perspective.