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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 10:54 AM
Original message
WP: Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete And Flawed
Clashes Roil Kerry Campaign

Sunday, August 22, 2004; Page A01

When John F. Kerry rescued James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River in the jungles of Vietnam in March 1969, neither man could possibly have imagined that the episode would become a much-disputed focus of an American presidential campaign 35 years later.

For Kerry, then a green and gangly Navy lieutenant junior grade and now the Democratic challenger to a wartime Republican president, that tale of heroism under fire has become integral to his campaign. A centerpiece of public rallies, videos and a new campaign advertisement last week, it has helped distinguish the candidate from his Democratic primary rivals and from President Bush, who spent the war at home as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

For the Massachusetts senator's critics, who include three of the five Swift boat skippers who were present that day, the incident demonstrates why Kerry does not deserve to be commander in chief. They accuse him of cowardice, hogging the limelight and lying. Far from displaying coolness under fire, they say, Kerry was never fired upon and fled the scene at the moment of maximum danger.

Establishing the facts 35 years later is complicated not merely by fading memories and sometimes ambiguous archival evidence, but also by the bitterly partisan nature of the presidential campaign.

An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that neither side has been entirely forthcoming, and that each has withheld information from the public record.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-20...
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. fog of war. . .anyone?
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lottie244 Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. But who is listening? Once the lie is out there and TV ads are out who
really pays attention to the truth. Think about what has happened to the many good Dem candidates as a result of lies, inuenndo, and misinformation over the past 40 years.

The conclusion is that Americans would rather believe a lie than the truth based on how they smear, demean and degrade whistleblowers and others who tell the truth. The Aryan people just refuse to believe anything bad about themselves. Seems to be the case all througout history.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. the public still believes the lie that saddaam and 911 are related
and bush and cheney continue to state that even though it is proven wrong..they continue to lie and because people continue to hear it they believe it.....

lies

it is all lies

it worked for them agains mccain and mccleland.....so they continue the lies and the fools who believe them vote to have their jobs shipped over seas, get lower pay and lose their house...but bush and corporations just laugh at them
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. but I'll be shocked if they did half as much research about the cluster
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 11:23 AM by rfkrocks
f**k in Iraq right now-someone should ask the right wing vets-how many more soldiers did they want to have die in Vietnam-isn't that the freakin point here-did they want more names on the wall in Washington-didn't Kerry get that right and they were wrong? The war made that area worse and we could never have won it- the same way Bush has decided we can't beat North Korea-one word answer-CHINA-they can pretend that we could have won it just as we can pretend we have a clue about how to solve the Iraq mess we (Shrub) made-damm I wish the media would cover the present disaster
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joefree1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is getting play
All over CNN right now. Yeah, let's keep talking about who went to Vietnam and who didn't.


Download the free poster/sign here:
http://ediablo.com/eDiabloGallery.html
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is how this page-one WP article describes the SBVT --
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group that has aired television advertisements accusing Kerry of lying about his wartime service." When you start with that, you've got an article that's not going to serve your readers, or journalism.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's vehicle to serve the gang's ultimate purpose
...to sow doubt. Mission Accomplished. What a circus. The Arkansas project was just a kindergarten.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. other vets are now coming out and sticking up for Kerry.....he needs to
keep making the comparison on his willingness to serve and shrubs duck and hide routine....come to think of it...shrub's duck and hide routine was played out again on 9-11.

They (thugs)are making a mistake on keeping this dog in the fight...Kerry should never run from it....he is head and shoulders better than that coward in the WH.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. WaPo publishes a total falsehood.
They say, in a sidebar:
What his challengers say: Kerry took a tiny fragment of shrapnel when he fired an M-79 grenade too close to his boat, inflicting his own wound, which was trivial. Self-inflicted wounds are ineligible for Purple Hearts.

Bullshit! First off, that's NOT a "self-inflicted" wound in the sense of military terminology. In the military, this exception applies only to those who knowingly and intentionally injure or wound themselves. We had guys accidentally stumble and fall and get cuts or broken arms while running for bunkers during rocket attacks. They were legitimately awarded Purple Hearts. This is, to exactly the same degree, a 'self-inflicted' wound in the sense described.

The WaPo is whoring for the right!
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Nice catch, thank you, n/t
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Nice catch - Only crew anti-Kerry is Gardner of late 1968 on PCF-44
Stephen Gardner, who served with Kerry in late 1968 on PCF-44, is the only member that supports Bush.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. OK, heres' one for the Other Side
Thx WaPo (and fuck you very much!)

Why? Because the Washington Press corps doesn't spend enough time playing Devil's Advocate. (sarcasm off)
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. Shouldn't the headline be:"Bush/Cheney Campaign Panics"
sends out "C" team to put out fires?

Stinkin Whores!

Looking back at the last few WaPo front pages, I would say that the Washington Post Editorial board is what's roiling right now. They were going real good there for awhile--now the Pukkke-kissin hos are back in charge.


AAAAAAArrrrgh!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. The WP headline should have been. "Bush & Cheney on sinking gun boat!"

The ugly face of truth! Sinks Bush & crew.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. What Bushco continues to do, strategically speaking, is to ignore
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 11:58 AM by Dover
Dubya's weaknesses on any subject (in this case Bush's awol status) and instead throw a critical light on Kerry...thus leveling what is an uneven playing field favoring Kerry by creating doubt and magnifying hairline cracks in the veneer. A good offense trumps a good defense. I suppose they figure they have nothing to lose having already weathered the AWOL storm for the most part, and Kerry has MUCH to lose....so why not risk some acceptable levels of flack? It's something that I haven't seen the Kerry camp do yet. Instead they avoid his weaknesses as vulnerabilities that must be protected at all costs...while relying on Bush's weaknesses to do the work for them.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Good Point...
This WP is an example of why the Swiftboat nonsense isn't being buried and even the Media is helping co-ordinate the GOP campaign...

Two lies being 'echo-ed' here:
1) Kerry didn't deserve his purple hearts and his conduct was less than 'heroic'
2) "it has helped distinguish the candidate from his Democratic primary rivals and from President Bush, who spent the war at home as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

Obviously the first is easily disproved.

But while democrats and the Media follow the sham and 'flak' tossed up by these disgraceful 'swiftboat' propgandists and their GOP paymasters, the second 'meme' is unrefuted and implanted...

Of course any devotee of this board and 'current affairs' knows that Bush's Texas NG stint is at best (being generous and WP journalistic polite) is questionable at best...a lie and a military cover-up


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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Can you fill me in on the meaning of "echoed" and provide a reference
for it's origin?
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Pass Tense-ed
Short form for 'echo chamber'...

"Echo chamber is a colloquial term used to describe a group of media outlets that tend to parrot each other's uncritical reports on the views of a single source, or that otherwise relies on unquestioning repetition of official sources.

"In the United States, the Republican Party uses a network of conservative foundations, coordinated by the Philanthropy Roundtable, and described in an extensive report (March 2004) by Jerry M. Landay for Mediatransparency.org, support an echo chamber of think tanks, industry-friendly experts and subsidized conservative media that systematically spread its messages throughout the political and media establishment. Typically, the message starts when conservative voices begin making an allegation (e.g., Democratic candidates are engaged in "hate-mongering" with regard to Bush). Columns start getting written on this theme, which spreads beyond the subsidized conservative media, eventually begins appearing in places like the New York Times, and becomes a talking point and "accepted fact" throughout the media."
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Echo_chamb...

They go to list a few classics...

Also Columbia Journalism Review has a section called Echo Chamber that keeps tabs...lots of good examples
A good example they have posted about Heinz-Kerry and the "whether she is a 'asset' or 'liability'?" BS debate...
http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/cat_echo_chamber.a...
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Thank you! Very interesting.................eom
..
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
12. WP is pretty messed up..
.. they are treating this as a 'he said' vs. 'he said', which is totally wrong. The burden of proof is on those scurilous cowards who are challenging documented events. THEY are the one that should be investigated. The WP makes it sound like Kerry is lying about things.. when in fact, the only thing they could come up with is that the shrapnel in his butt may have come from an earlier rice explosion.. rather than later that day, when he did injure his leg. That's pretty ridiculous and wrong to use that minor thing, which may not have been Kerry's doing, as some balance to the attacks on Rassman's rescue. Molehill meet Mountain.

As I read this.. my blood began to boil. I realized that I was reading the words of these cowards who are attacking Kerry.. but more imporantly, I am reading words that are meant to sway voters away from a veteran. Words, paid for by people who never set foot in battle. Words, for the benefit of people who have never set foot in battle. I am outraged that the Republicans are once again launching the attacks that make people forget the real truth... Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam. He has seen war. He has seen things that most of us could not handle. And yet.. it's treated like it's worth nothing.

The people perpetrating these attacks for personal gain will answer to a higher (or lower) authority when their days on earth have expired. Perhaps, when they are old and gray, and near their time to go.. they will reflect upon what they have wrought, and repent. As Lee Atwater did. Some people never learn. The voters and vets should know better. If the media pointed out the attacks on Max Clelland and John McCain, as they should.. then perhaps the voters would realize what this is.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. There is no mention of any injury other to Kerry's arm
in Kerry's bronze star citation. Kerry earned a purple heart under the rules. There was nothing fraudulent here.
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lottie244 Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. "Bush served with honor?"
Where, when?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. The most interesting part of this for me . .
. . is that today I found out that the tactic of directly turning the Swiftboats into the ambush, charging the ambush - was a new tactic that Kerry came up with. I didn't understand this before.

It shows both his creativity and courage - even at a relatively young age . .

. . and at a time when * was apparently using his creative energies to stay out of Viet Nam and to even avoid showing up for TANG duty at all.

Knowing just this, forgetting all the other outrages, how anyone could consider voting for * and having this coward slacker as the one person who represents the US to the world is totally beyond me.

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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. Where the heck is David Brinkley?
I've been wondering where he was. After one or two statements/interviews, he vanished from the media, now he's not taking phone calls.

I'd like to know what's up with that.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. why don`t they go after his----

---------------SILVER STAR-------------------
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kimchi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. Kerry didn't lie about Vietnam, and vets today not lying about Abu Graib
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 02:27 PM by kimchi
(Too bad no one has the cajones to make that into an ad.)

The swiftboat liars have drunk the koolaid. They are the same ones who talk about "fraternity hazing" by a "few bad apples".

People who deny the atrocities committed by our government ironically don't sleep easy at night. They are consumed and controlled by fear, and that fear causes them to embrace violence and to love the Big Brother that is using them.

WaPo is trying to be fair to both sides, because otherwise the freepers wouldn't believe a word of it. It is they who must be awakened, and "balanced" view of events where the last line is a positive endorsement of Kerry may actually sink in to lead-plated minds at some point is okay with me. An article only slamming the vets would be ignored. Yeah, it sucks that the SVFT get a say; but let's be honest--WE don't need to be convinced. This entire process has been drip by drip, and it is working. America STILL can't handle the entire truth.

ed: okay, not oday
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. I am so sick of Bush being referred to as a 'wartime President' ...
:mad:
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. WP has another vet saying there was fire
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 07:41 PM by rmpalmer
From the posted article.

But yesterday, The Post independently contacted a participant who has not spoken out so far in favor of either camp who remembers coming under enemy fire. "There was a lot of firing going on, and it came from both sides of the river," said Wayne D. Langhofer, who manned a machine gun aboard PCF-43, the boat that was directly behind Kerry's.

Langhofer said he distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of enemy AK-47s, as well as muzzle flashes from the riverbanks. Langhofer, who now works at a Kansas gunpowder plant , said he was approached several months ago by leaders of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth but declined their requests to speak out against Kerry.

So another one says Thurlow is lying! And another one who was contacted and wouldn't go along with the Swift Boat Liars. When is someone in the media going to investigate how these vets were approached by from what I hear PI's? I think there's a story there. What were they asked to say?
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. did anyone read the post article that they were talking about?
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
29. WHERE TO SEND FEEDBACK ON THIS ARTICLE -- ombudsman@washpost.com...
for the WP reader rep, and Michael Dobbs, the writer, dobbsm@washpost.com
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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
31. Instead of wasting the 4 paragraph rule on this crap, tell us about Kerry
and what he withheld thats supposed to be in the public record.

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
32. Here's an interesting graphic that accompanied the article --
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