Venezuelan Cardinal Tallys Recall Vote as "Gigantic Fraud"

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=57717
This pisses me off!
snip
"The Venezuelan-born cardinal told Vatican Radio that a "gigantic fraud" took place in the referendum.

"There was a move to the ballot boxes never before seen in Venezuela," he said. "But the electoral centers, changing the dispositions, used people of the ruling party in the vote-counting."

"Exit polls at the ballot boxes showed that there was 65% in favor of 'yes,' that is, of the revocation of the mandate, and only 35% or at most 40% in favor of the president," said the cardinal, who is an expert in juridical questions and president emeritus of the Pontifical Commission for the Vatican City State.

The cardinal also said that governmental representatives bought votes at the ballot boxes.

"Poor people were given the equivalent of U.S. $50 or $60 if they voted 'no,' that is, to keep the president in the government," he added.
/snip

[Politicub]

1. Here's my advice to the good cardinal

Why don't you go and diddle an alter boy and STFU?!

[shaolinmonkey]

2. No offense to Catholics, but the Catholic leadership's credibility

is shot.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

5. I am devoutly catholic but the Vatican is taking the WRONG possition

on this one :grr:

They are supposed to champion the poor

[Union Thug]

11. When the Church abandoned liberation theology...

...I lost my respect for it.

[ret5hd]

19. exactly...

as a born and raised catholic (although now atheist), watching the church abandon those whom they should defend is disgusting.

Watching this scenario replay thru the years all over south america played a large part in my leaving the church. the hierarchy defends the monied class, and the parish priest and nun defends the poor, often taking a bullet (or worse) in the process.

[movonne]

18. They also should want a catholic in the WH.

[LittleApple81]

24. In Latin America, Catholic church and Oligarchy go hand in hand. n/t

[lottie244]

38. And everywhere else. All throughout history. Some of the most hineous

crimes against humanity have been committed by the Catholic Church and all churches to be fair. In the name of religion, more sin is committed than in the name of the devil.

[AspenRose]

3. Democracy the world over is on shaky ground....

even when the votes are legit.

Gee, thanks Mr. Bush!

:mad:

[w13rd0]

4. Of course...

...their talking points have gone out, and Chavez has been no friend of the Catholic Church, which has for generations, enforced the status quo of oppression from the pulpit.

They will attempt to declare the results fraudulent, and insist upon yet another attempt to overturn the will of the people with a playing field more favorable to their desired results.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Sad, but true.

I say that as an ex-Catholic. I gave up on that institution a long time ago. I can remember a time when priests died in South America for preaching the true gospel. This man is no friend of the poor, he's all for protecting his material and social status. How truely sad.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

32. Its all about the holy orders - especially the Franciscans

they are still being true. Not the diocesan heirarchy - the college of cardinals or the Vatican

[Union Thug]

6. In the words of every Repuke in the States...

...after the 2000 selection: Get over it.

[Vladimir]

7. So let us see

Chavez got 58%, of which 18% at least was stolen. Assue that half the stolen was bought, which on a turnout of 9 million is 0.8 million, times fifty bucks is 40 million dollars. I recon that kind of hole in the budget should be pretty noticable... LOL

[Walt Starr]

8. Sorry cardinal, but the international observers say it's legit

so stop lying.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vladimir]

13. It matters a lot because he in fact won fairly

On eidt: btw. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[prolesunited]

16. Yeah, it really does matter

Although the GOP seems to have no moral center, most of us still believe in truth and justice. Perhaps you should consider enrolling in an ethics class.

[atreides1]

10. What Connections Does the Good Cardinal Have

What connections, if any does the good cardinal have with the opposition party.

So the question is who do we trust, a former US President known for his honesty, or a Cardinal of the Catholic church, a chuch which has been less then honest in the recent past.

I pick Carter, the Cardinal as someone has already pointed out can just STFU, and I mean no insult to any Catholic DUer's.

[pschoeb]

43. I trust Carter, also it's not clear that this Cardinal is evenin Venezeula

From the article it says he spoke on Vatican Radio, and the news agency in the link is a Vatican News Agency, since he has lived in Vatican City since 1975, it is quite likely he was not even in Venezuela. Nothing in the article says the guy is even in Venezeula, they just mention that he was born in Venezeula. I guess he could be there, but it seems somewhat unlikely to me.

The church is also upset at Chavez for trying to institute reforms that will ease restrictions on abortions.

putting these points all together, I pick Carter along with you.

[displacedtexan]

12. The Cardinal v Mr. Carter...

Hm.

Whom to trust?

Duh.

It's time to run for Pope again... The candidates will reward those followers who out-Catholic other Catholics.

Sorry, true Catholics! Church politics tick me off BIG TIME!

[SoCalDem]

15. Isn't religion mixed with politics....fun??

NOT...The cardinal needs some Bill OReilly Love...SHUT-UP...SHUT-UP...SHUT-UP...

[frylock]

17. exit polls at the ballot boxes showed that there was 65% in favor of yes..

despite the fact that EXIT POLLS WERE BANNED!!! This guy is a so-called expert on juridical questions? Stupid fucking jerk. The referendum was monitored, asshole. Your thugs did everything they could to steal this thing, including the gunning down of voters in Caracas, and their "satirical" broadcast stating that Chavez lost. FUCK ME!!

[Eloriel]

20. Exit polls weren't banned

Info about the results of those exit polls couldn't be legally released. Exit polls are a GOOD thing. But it's NOT good to release data early and thus suppress late voting.

[AP]

29. Exactly.

[madrchsod]

21. in the late 50`s our methodist minister

came back from south america and gave a speech one sunday in which he said "the catholic church is burning incense while the people are starving", i will always remember that statement even though is was 9 or 10 years old.. there have been many brave priest and nuns and they paid with their lives in doing god`s work.
the amazing thing is that god didn`t strike our minister dead-he lived well into his 90`s....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

22. Don't categorize the whole church by vatican thugs

there are real charitable missionary clergy in the church. The episcopal church is pretty damned wealthy too

[stickdog]

23. So call for an audit of the paper ballots, then!

Or are you afraid most of your charges will then be conclusively DISPROVED?

[htuttle]

25. I bet this guy is Opus Dei scum!

Opus Dei are a group of Satanists who infiltrated the Church a long time ago. You'll find them on the EVIL side of any given issue.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. I love the satanist Opus Dei thing

:tinfoilhat:

[htuttle]

31. Heck, why not?

They're bad, in any case.

I'd say they were Martians if I thought it would get people to look into their activities.

:shrug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. go on - explain

n/t

[htuttle]

36. They appear to have been involved in the first coup attempt

And Pedro Carmona's one-day government had a whole host of Opus Dei members in it.

It's a long tradition, it seems. Look next to Gen. Franco, Gen. Pinochet -- and what do you know: there's a member of Opus Dei. In fact, look at any Latin American dictatorship over the last 40 years, and you'll find Opus Dei members right up there in the leadership.

I'm not suggesting something that requires a liberal amount of tinfoil. I'm suggesting that Opus Dei, as a VERY conservative group inside the Catholic Church, and a VERY well-connected group (ie., often called the 'Holy Mafia' by critics both in and outside the church) would use their influence to shape the political environment to their purposes. In short, just like any other group of people with common interests would do.

[Joanne98]

37. Yeah jump on that

Everytime these conservative FAKE Priests protect the corrupt. This is an outrage.

[SemperEadem]

26. they need to go find the cardinal and detain him

and the Catholic church needs to be driven out of Latin America. They are hand in hand with oppressive governments and keeping the people in the miserable squalor in which they find themselves, while the church steals the natural resources out of the ground and sends it back to Rome.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. Wow - thats quite a set up - do they have conveyor belts under the ocean?

?

[Larkspur]

27. This guy should not mistake wealthy neighborhoods for all of Venezuela

There may have been 65% for Recall in the wealthy sections of Venezuela, but Chavez got the biggest boost from the poor, who have greater numbers than the elite.

[Judi Lynn]

34. Stranger things have happened!

Maybe it's possible he has been kept in the wealthy sectors of Caracas! Maybe he doesn't get out much.



He'd be in for a big surprise, wouldn't he?

[genius]

35. If you want to find out about the Catholics, go watch "The Mission"

The Pope has apologized but not all of the lower level cardinals have gotten it yet.

[happyslug]

39. Bio of Jose Castillo-Lara (age 82) No longer elegible to vote for pope

CASTILLO LARA, S.D.B., Rosalio José (1922-

Birth. September 4, 1922, San Casimiro, diocese of Maracay, Venezuela. Nephew of Lucas Guillermo Castillo, archbishop of Caracas.

Education. Joined the Pious Society of St. Francis de Sales (Salesians of Don Bosco), Bogotá, Colombia; Salesian houses of study, Colombia. Salesian Athenaeum, Turin (doctorate in canon law); University of Bonn, Germany.

Priesthood. Ordained, September 4, 1949, Caracas. Director of studies, St. Joseph Institute, Los Teques, 1949-1950. Further studies, 1950-1953, Turin. President of Venezuelan Association of Catholic Educators, 1953. Faculty member, Salesian Athenaeum, 1954-1957, Turin; 1957-1965, Rome. Further research, 1962, Bonn. Numerary member of Institute of Research and Study in Medieval Law, Toronto. Provincial of Salesian Society in Venezuela, January 1966-August 1967; regional assistant for Latin America, Southern Cone, 1967-1971; general counselor for pastoral care for youth, 1971-1973.

Episcopate. Elected titular bishop of Precausa and appointed coadjutor, with right of succession, of Trujillo, Venezuela, March 26, 1973. Consecrated, May 24, 1973, Caracas, by Cardinal José Humberto Quintero Parra, archbishop of Caracas. Attended III Ordinary Assembly of World Synod of Bishops, Vatican City, September 27-October 26, 1974. Secretary of Pontifical Commission for Revision of Code of Canon Law, February 12, 1975. Attended III General Conference of Latin American Episcopal Council, Puebla, México, January 27-February 13, 1979. President of Disciplinary Commission of Roman Curia, October 5, 1981. Pro-president of Pontifical Commission for Revision of Code of Canon Law, May 22, 1982. Promoted to archbishop, May 26, 1982. Pro-president of Pontifical Commission for Authentic Interpretation of Code of Canon Law, January 18, 1984.

Cardinalate. Created cardinal deacon, May 25, 1985; received red biretta and deaconry of Nostra Signora di Coromoto in S. Giovanni di Dio, May 25, 1985. President of Pontifical Commission for Authentic Interpretation of the Code of Canon Law, May 27, 1985. Attended II Extraordinary Assembly of World Synod of Bishops, Vatican City, November 24-December 8, 1985; VII Ordinary Assembly of World Synod of Bishops, Vatican City, October 1-30, 1987. President of Administration of Patrimony of Apostolic See, December 6, 1989. Attended VIII Ordinary Assembly of World Synod of Bishops, Vatican City, September 30-October 28, 1990. President of the Pontifical Commission for the State of Vatican City, October 31, 1990. Attended Special Assembly of World Synod of Bishops for Europe, Vatican City, November 28-December 14, 1991. Special papal envoy to 4th National Marian Congress, Guanare, Venezuela, May 29-31, 1992. Attended Special Assembly of World Synod of Bishops for Africa, Vatican City, April 10-May 8, 1994; IX Ordinary Assembly of World Synod of Bishops, Vatican City, October 2-29, 1994. Resigned presidency of Administration, June 24, 1995. Opted for order of priests and deaconry was elevated pro hac vice to title, January 29, 1996. Special papal envoy to closing ceremonies of V centennial of St. John of God's birth, Granada, Spain, March 7-8, 1996. Resigned presidency, October 14, 1997. Attended Special Assembly for America of World Synod of Bishops, Vatican City, November 16-December 12, 1997. Returned to live in Venezuela, 1997. Special papal envoy to the Third Colombian National Eucharistic Congress, Cali, October 16-18 1999. Special papal envoy to II Regional Eucharistic Congress of the Antilles, May 18-21, 2000, Castries, St. Lucie. Special papal envoy to National Eucharistic Congress of Argentina, Córdoba, September 8-10, 2000. Lost the right to participate in the conclave when turned 80 years of age, September 4, 2002.

Vatican's Biography
http://www.stjohnxxiii.com/Cardinals/The_Cardinals_of_the_Church/bios-c.htm

His position in the Hierarchy (He is nothing but a Canon-lawyer as opposed to someone who actaully decides things for the Vatican):
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bcaslar.html

[HuckleB]

40. The Pope should remove this scumbag immediately.

What an old-school power broker type. I'm sorry, but there's no room for such an anti-democratic demagogue in church leadership.

[happyslug]

41. Already done two years ago

He retains the title of Cardinal but has had no power since he retired just before he turned 80 and became inelegible to vote for the next pope.

[pschoeb]

42. This Cardinal hasn't lived in Venezuela since at least 1975

so how should he know? His is a Titular Cardinal, that is, he has no real See or Archdiocese, he has lived in Vatican City since at least 1975.