Chavez's victory in Venezuela garners international support

[Nambe]

HAVANA (AP)

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez won international approval from supporters and detractors alike Monday on his decisive referendum victory over opponents trying to oust him. ..

Latin American leaders in the Dominican Republic for the inauguration of President Leonel Fernandez also congratulated Chavez.

Colombia's conservative President Alvaro Uribe called the vote "a beautiful lesson in democracy," while Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's Worker's Party said "Venezuela's democratic process strengthens South America's democratic integration."

Chavez said he had received personal phone calls from Silva, Argentine President Nestor Kirchner and leaders from China, Russia and several Arabic countries. ..

Ride Don’t Drive * * It’s Global Cool

[jpgray]

1. Score one for the good guys. :-)

Kerry, any time you want to change your Venezuela stance....

[seventhson]

2. Kerry will need our support after he is elected and so he needs to

say the right things NOW.

His silence is deafening.

Grrrr...

[jpgray]

3. I understand the strategic reasons

Both for his Venezuela stance and his Israel stance, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Every time he issues a statement I disagree very much with I call or write to express my displeasure.

[seventhson]

6. I actually do not really understand it either

I think he could be much more proactive for democracy and justice globally ESPECIALLY on Israel/Palestine and Latin America

I think it would win him votes.

[still_one]

8. That is what Democracy is all about

We do not want another four years of bush do we???

[fujiyama]

15. .

.

[fujiyama]

16. While I understand

why he'd want to distance himself from Chavez (otherwise the media'll claim he's friendly with South American socialist dictators), I'm curious as to why he's been vocal about it. It's probably the DLC advisors that made it part of the platform.

As for Israel/Palestine, I think there he could speak like Clinton did - mostly as a friend to both sides and an honest partner trying to bring peace. Giving a green light to all Sharon and likud policies isn't helping bring peace.

[IndianaGreen]

20. There is no excuse, other than sheer ignorance, for Kerry's statement

on Venezuela. I don't think Kerry is ignorant about anything, so the only conclusion is that he has purposely sided with the Venezuelan oligarchs because that's how the very wealthy are.

I am reminded of something that Emma Goldman wrote way back in 1911:

For surely it is not the rich who contribute to patriotism. They are cosmopolitans, perfectly at home in every land. We in America know well the truth of this. Are not our rich Americans Frenchmen in France, Germans in Germany, or Englishmen in England? And do they not squandor with cosmopolitan grace fortunes coined by American factory children and cotton slaves? Yes, theirs is the patriotism that will make it possible to send messages of condolence to a despot like the Russian Tsar, when any mishap befalls him, as President Roosevelt did in the name of his people, when Sergius was punished by the Russian revolutionists.

It is a patriotism that will assist the arch-murderer, Diaz, in destroying thousands of lives in Mexico, or that will even aid in arresting Mexican revolutionists on American soil and keep them incarcerated in American prisons, without the slightest cause or reason.

But, then, patriotism is not for those who represent wealth and power. It is good enough for the people. It reminds one of the historic wisdom of Frederick the Great, the bosom friend of Voltaire, who said: "Religion is a fraud, but it must be maintained for the masses."

PATRIOTISM, A MENACE TO LIBERTY
by Emma Goldman, 1911

http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/goldman/sp000064.html

[Eloriel]

22. He's just protecting his ass, IG.

He doesn't have any guts for the truth, really. Haven't you noticed that about him?

[AP]

37. But he has the sense to win an election. He seems to have the sense to....

...care about winning enough to do what's neccessary to win.

The people who don't have the guts to me are the people who don't do what you have to do to win.

[Bush was AWOL]

51. Some would rather him say good things about Chavez

then win the election. :eyes:

Luckily, he is doing what is necessary to remove the dictator in chimp.

[IndianaGreen]

53. He should have kept his mouth shut

instead of smearing Chavez and repeating rightwing talking points about Venezuela.

[Zhade]

57. He doesn't have to say GOOD things. He could have said NOTHING.

It's not like Venezuela was a burning question for the mass of largely apolitical voters. He could have remained quiet on it with no fear of losing votes.

That makes me question why he even brought it up. Unfortunately, I think I know the answer.

[AP]

71. Chavez won by such a huge margin, it turns out it didn't hurt. And...

...since the opposition is arguing that Bush wanted Chavez to win, Kerry's attitude will probably help Chavez in the long run.

[Larkspur]

250. Maybe Kerry has confused liberal with neoliberal

and forgotten what FDR did for the downtrotten in the US during the 1930's? :shrug:

Chavez's policies to me resemble a neo-FDR or neo-New-Deal platform.

[leesa]

48. Yeah. So do I...it's called steal the oil and military supremacy

Why on earth else would he oppose the resounding RE-ELECTION of a very popular leader in the most democratic means ever?? Why would he close his eyes and ears to Israel's ongoing atrocities?
We've had decades of the destruction of mindless slavery to Israel and to fossil fuels. BOTH are bad for us.

[papau]

7. It's a felony for amere American to interfere with the diplomacy of the US

I doubt that a statement would really be interference -

but I also doubt that the US Media would do anything other than jump on the Bush bandwagon if Bush folks were to be "shocked" that the Senator was "interfering illegally with Bush diplomacy".

:-)

[still_one]

4. I care more about his stand on the United States Of America

Venezuela choose who they wanted, we will hopefully choose who we want.

I care more about Kerry's stand on:

1. Stem Cell Research
2. The Supreme Court
3. The Environment
4. Jobs
5. Education
6. Energy

Because those are the things that matter most to the people here, not if a "socialist" controls Venezuela...

[jpgray]

5. Me too, but still, I'm not happy with some of his foreign policy

There is no question that my vote will be cast for Kerry.

[still_one]

11. Wait until after Kerry gets in

then try to influence his administration to what you believe, if you do not agree with it...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. One question...

If Kerry* won't listen now, at a time he's pandering for votes, why would he listen once elected?


*insert any politician's name here

[LauraK]

13. I agree still one! Kerry should avoid 'non-issues' for now.

Why give the repugs ammunition. They would love Kerry to bite the abortion, gun, Chavez, Cuba, condom, etc. issues. They have no footing on the real issues and Kerry needs to stay on them IMO.

[Eloriel]

24. Yeah, let's take the gutless, principle-less approach to

running this campaign.

Sheesh.

[SemperEadem]

93. what would you have him do and how would you want the

people to react?

being that neither are managable variables except in the mind...

[fujiyama]

18. While it's true

that his relationship with Chavez isn't at the top of my criteria, foreign policy is extremely important and Chavez fits in there. While I haven't made my mind up completely on Chavez, it's apparent he won his referendum fairly and the US should respect this.

[foo_bar]

9. he's our man

While Wall Street dislikes leftist Chavez's anti-U.S. speeches and free spending on social programs, it deemed a win by the populist president the best way to maintain the flow of oil cash that allows Venezuela to pay its international debts.
...
International bondholders initially hoped for a Chavez defeat, but as the vote approached preferred a Chavez victory to uncertainty.

http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml?type=bondsNews&storyID=5989310

[ParanoidPat]

21. CNN BREAKING NEWS: International bondholders are flip flopper's!

:spank: :evilgrin:

[leftistagitator]

12. Change what stance?

"Stay Neutral in Free Elections: When the United States picks favorite candidates, we weaken the integrity of those political processes - and as often as not, our support can cause a backlash within a populace hypersensitive to meddling by the United States, as it did in Bolivia. -- Support Democratically Elected Leaders: Governments that uphold democratic principles deserve our support We should not countenance mob rule nor military force or inaction to oust an elected president, even an imperfect one such as Aristide in Haiti or Chavez in Venezuela. Instead, we should exercise our considerable diplomatic and moral force in support of democratically elected leaders."

Kerry doesn't like the fact that he sides with FARC and hangs out with Fidel. Do you want Kerry to announce that he is pro-Castro and pro-FARC? Kerry said beforehand that he supports a policy of nonintervention so long as Chavez maintains his commitment to democracy, you'd think that would be a great step in the right direction seeing as how Bush* sends the CIA down there every 15 minutes.

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/archives/000425.php

[jpgray]

17. This stuff

A lot of familiar opposition lines here.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0319d.html

With the future of the democratic process at a critical juncture in Venezuela, we should work to bring all possible international pressure to bear on President Chavez to allow the referendum to proceed. The Administration should demonstrate its true commitment to democracy in Latin America by showing determined leadership now, while a peaceful resolution can still be achieved.

Throughout his time in office, President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power. In fact, his close relationship with Fidel Castro has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.

Moreover, President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors. He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia.

The referendum has given the people of Venezuela the opportunity to express their views on his presidency through constitutionally legitimate means. The international community cannot allow President Chavez to subvert this process, as he has attempted to do thus far. He must be pressured to comply with the agreements he made with the OAS and the Carter Center to allow the referendum to proceed, respect the exercise of free expression, and release political prisoners.

Too often in the past, this Administration has sent mixed signals by supporting undemocratic processes in our own hemisphere -- including in Venezuela, where they acquiesced to a failed coup attempt against President Chavez. Having just allowed the democratically elected leader to be cast aside in Haiti, they should make a strong statement now by leading the effort to preserve the fragile democracy in Venezuela.

[IndianaGreen]

25. I have never heard such bullshit from a Democratic candidate!

Published on Friday, March 26, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Why John Kerry Must Retract his Position on Venezuela
by VenezuelAnalysis.com

The Democratic candidate for President of the United States, John Kerry, published a statement on his web site this past March 19, setting forth his position on the political situation in Venezuela. In this declaration, Kerry relies on inaccurate information and repeats views identical to those of the Venezuelan opposition to democratically-elected President Hugo Chavez.

<snip>

It is almost unexplainable that Kerry, as a Democrat, maintains almost the same positions as Bush and his ultra-conservative cabinet. Many in the progressive community had hoped that Kerry could bring a fundamental change to the foreign policies implemented by Bush towards Latin America. Statements such as this lead us to believe that there may be little change in the arrogant US government foreign policy, and unfortunately, mistrust and resentment towards the United States in Latin America would probably continue to grow as a result.

Without offering any evidence, Kerry, follows the line of the Venezuelan opposition, accusing Chavez of aiding the Colombian guerrilla forces, permitting narcotrafficking, undermining democratic institutions, attempting to impede a possible recall referendum on his mandate, and of implementing policies that are detrimental to US interests.

Chavez is a President who has been elected twice by clear majorities in democratic elections, and who, at this time, still enjoys one of the highest levels of popularity amongst Latin American leaders. Chavez's policies have earned him the support of millions of progressive and liberal voices throughout Latin America as well as in North America.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0326-01.htm

[jpgray]

27. Kerry is solid in many ways

But in a lot of foreign policy issues, he's establishment and status quo--he's still way better than Bush, but we've had some bullshit from Dem presidents before beyond or about equal to this. Supporting brutal dictators in Greece and elsewhere to save people from 'communism', for example.

[IndianaGreen]

29. The Establishment wants to stay the course in Iraq

and they still want to salvage the situation there, and save their profits in the process. If Kerry is going to be as much of an Establishment guy as he has shown so far, particularly on the war, his Presidency will be a tumultuous one, like Nixon's.

[jpgray]

31. His plan as stated probably won't work

I don't see where the forces are going to come from unless Egypt and Syria are on board with soldiers, and I don't know if a UN-led multinational part-Arab force will do much better if it's still Allawi and the gang running things. The Germans probably have only draftees left and France doesn't have much to bring either. If he's serious about bringing people back in significant numbers within eighteen months, he will have to write off the fourteen bases and oil greed. Again though, his statements have been superior to Bush's in all cases, and even in the worst case better a first termer than a lame duck.

[IndianaGreen]

32. If you ask Iraqis, they don't want any foreign troops on their soil

None, zip, nada! They particularly don't want any Turkish troops on their soil.

How come Americans always assume that we alone know what is best for everyone else?

[Zhade]

58. "His plan as stated probably won't work" - oh boy, now you've done it!

Don your flamesuit, my friend. Some here will NOT like your realistic assessment of the Iraqi quagmire!

[AP]

36. You don't remember Ricky Ray Rector and Sistah Souljah?

Or how about Kennedy's EXTREME anti-communism during the election which softened remarkably once he became president.

Hmm, Why would he try to run as an anticommunist against Nixon, who wanted to run the entire election on the issue of who was a bigger anti-communist?

[IndianaGreen]

38. Clinton's remarks would not have led to the deaths of innocents

which is exactly what is going to happen the moment the oligarchs regain power in Venezuela. Have we forgotten those that died during the Pinochet regime? or the Argentina junta?

As you said, the most despicable thing that Clinton did before he became President was the execution of Rickey Ray Rector:

Killing for Votes

The death penalty seems to be a kind of gruesome flypaper that ambitious politicians get stuck on. Bill Clinton, for example. No Republican was going to out-tough him. Running for President in 1992, then-Governor Clinton interrupted his New Hampshire campaign to return to Arkansas and preside over the execution of Rickey Ray Rector, a black man sentenced to death by an all-white jury for killing a cop. After shooting the cop he tried to commit suicide but succeeded only in performing a lobotomy on himself, thereby becoming so mentally retarded he didn't know what an execution was. He saved a piece of pie from his last meal because he thought he was coming back to his cell.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010108&c=2&s=sherrill

[AP]

40. Looks like the opposition's going to argue that Bush wanted Chavez to win

believe it or not.

It might actually help him if Kerry wins and has a public facade of being tough on Chavez while, behind the scenes, terminating all the CIA plots.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Let's see what happens next year

Once Kerry is President, he won't be able to nuance his way out of an issue because he will have to set policy. It will be Kerry's actions, rather than his words, that will either vindicate him or condemn him. The ball will be in his court!

[AP]

46. Castro has said that JFKen was the best American president and the one

he respected the most. It's probably not just because JFKennedy didn't nuke him. It's probably because they mutually played the game of politics really well, responding (in JFK's case) to political realities at home while allowing the maximum autonomy, respect, and room for self-governance the circumstances would allow.

Why do you think Castro liked Kennedy so much?

I wonder if Hugo will say the same thing about Kerry in 40 years.

[Judi Lynn]

55. You may find this link interesting, if you've not read it already.

I was just reading through this thread, and had to stop at your post to send this link. The show to which it refers is run periodically on the Discovery channel. It's been on multiple times already, and damned interesting:

Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

INITIATIVE WITH CASTRO ABORTED BY ASSASSINATION,
DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOW

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Posted - November 24, 2003
Documents Readers
Bay of Pigs Declassified: The Secret CIA Report
The Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962


Washington D.C. - On the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the eve of the broadcast of a new documentary film on Kennedy and Castro, the National Security Archive today posted an audio tape of the President and his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, discussing the possibility of a secret meeting in Havana with Castro. The tape, dated only seventeen days before Kennedy was shot in Dallas, records a briefing from Bundy on Castro's invitation to a U.S. official at the United Nations, William Attwood, to come to Havana for secret talks on improving relations with Washington. The tape captures President Kennedy's approval if official U.S. involvement could be plausibly denied.

The possibility of a meeting in Havana evolved from a shift in the President's thinking on the possibility of what declassified White House records called "an accommodation with Castro" in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Proposals from Bundy's office in the spring of 1963 called for pursuing "the sweet approach…enticing Castro over to us," as a potentially more successful policy than CIA covert efforts to overthrow his regime. Top Secret White House memos record Kennedy's position that "we should start thinking along more flexible lines" and that "the president, himself, is very interested in ." Castro, too, appeared interested. In a May 1963 ABC News special on Cuba, Castro told correspondent Lisa Howard that he considered a rapprochement with Washington "possible if the United States government wishes it. In that case," he said, "we would be agreed to seek and find a basis" for improved relations.

The untold story of the Kennedy-Castro effort to seek an accommodation is the subject of a new documentary film, KENNEDY AND CASTRO: THE SECRET HISTORY, broadcast on the Discovery/Times cable channel on November 25 at 8pm. The documentary film, which focuses on Ms. Howard's role as a secret intermediary in the effort toward dialogue, was based on an article -- "JFK and Castro: The Secret Quest for Accommodation" -- written by Archive Senior Analyst Peter Kornbluh in the magazine, Cigar Aficionado. Kornbluh served as consulting producer and provided key declassified documents that are highlighted in the film. "The documents show that JFK clearly wanted to change the framework of hostile U.S. relations with Cuba," according to Kornbluh. "His assassination, at the very moment this initiative was coming to fruition, leaves a major 'what if' in the ensuing history of the U.S. conflict with Cuba."

Among the key documents relevant to this history:

• Oval Office audio tape, November 5, 1963. The tape records a conversation between the President and McGeorge Bundy regarding Castro's invitation to William Attwood, a deputy to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson, to come to Cuba for secret talks. The President responds that Attwood should be taken off the U.S. payroll prior to such a meeting so that the White House can plausibly deny that any official talks have taken place if the meeting leaks to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Mr. Donovan's Trip to Cuba," March 4, 1963. This document records President Kennedy's interest in negotiations with Castro and his instructions to his staff to "start thinking along more flexible lines" on conditions for a dialogue with Cuba.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Policy," April 11, 1963. A detailed options paper from Gordon Chase, the Latin America specialist on the National Security Council, to McGeorge Bundy recommending "looking seriously at the other side of the coin-quietly enticing Castro over to us."
  CIA briefing paper, Secret, "Interview of U.S. Newswoman with Fidel Castro Indicating Possible Interest in Rapprochement with the United States," May 1, 1963. A debriefing of Lisa Howard by CIA deputy director Richard Helms, regarding her ABC news interview with Castro and her opinion that he is "ready to discuss rapprochement." The document contains a notation, "Psaw," meaning President Kennedy read the report on Howard and Castro.
  
• U.S. UN Mission memorandum, Secret, Chronology of events leading up Castro invitation to receive a U.S. official for talks in Cuba, November 8, 22, 1963. This chronology was written by William Attwood and records the evolution of the initiative set in motion by Lisa Howard for a dialogue with Cuba. The document describes the party at Howard's Manhattan apartment on September 23, 1963, where Attwood met with Cuban UN Ambassador Carlos Lechuga to discuss the potential for formal talks to improve relations. In an addendum, Attwood adds information on communications, using the Howard home as a base, leading up to the day the President was shot in Dallas.
  (snip/...)

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/index.htm

[AP]

70. Well, that sounds like it's not so great for mil-industrial profits.

And it probably wasnt' going to get AT&T, the casinos, and United Fruit their exploitative monopolies back.

And what's with this public facade of aggression and private "sweetness." Gosh, I wonder why politicians feel the need to do things like that?

Politics is just so confusing.

Or, perhaps, it's not really so confusing.

[Algomas]

94. The last nail in JFK's coffin?

[Zhade]

60. He'll have a hard time if Goss gets in as DCI without a fight.

Unless Kerry does the right thing and cans Goss ASAP once he gets into office.

Having Cheney's puppet as DCI is NOT a good thing, even if Cheney's out of power.

EDIT: Spelling

[Zhade]

61. Jesus. That's fucking horrible. I've never heard that before.

NT!

[Judi Lynn]

64. I never heard the whole story, either.

Only as much as Clinton made a special trip back to the state to be there when they executed him. That seemed odd to me, very odd.

I didn't know he had tried to kill himself, and had ended up with brain damage because of it. Just heard the part that the man was so backward he asked if he could save his dessert so he could eat it later, when he got back.

Very, very sad.

[psychopomp]

73. I hate this fact

Sista Souljah is another. Both of these were used as race-baiting devices by the "Big Dawg." It makes me sick and they are important reasons that I do not venerate BC here at DU.

[AP]

76. They may be important reasons why he won that race though.

Would you venerate a loser just because he stuck to his guns, even though he knew it would cost him the election?

[psychopomp]

83. That's like asking, "What if Kerry had stayed silent on Venezuela.."

...and it cost him the election (knocking on wood), would you respect him then?"

It is an impossible and pointless excercise to wonder about such a thing as the loss may or may not have anything to do not having made such a statement. It is be impossible to prove that Clinton would have lost had he not done such despicable acts.

I wish Kerry had refrained from commenting on Venezuela; it seemed like an unneccesary pandering to the right.

Clinton appealed to racists and white supremecists by figuratively backhanding Sista Souljah and making a concerted effort to witness an African American execution. These acts are akin to telling a racist joke at a fundraiser or making a speech at Bob Jones University. The incident of the execution brings to mind olde tyme lynchings.

What is really sick is that this never fails to go over with a significant percentage of the voting public.

[AP]

85. Kerry is doing pretty well in Florida, insn't he?

I disagree with cap punishment vehemently. Ricky Ray Rector was an interesting case. He was a cop killer who tried to kill himself AFTER committing the crime. Had he been brain damaged like that before the crime, he wouldn't have been convicted. His injury raised the question, does a person need to be mentally sound in order to appreciate that they are being punished? It's an issue that the courts clearly had resolved against Rector's favor, givent hat his only hope was a pardon. Had Rector not injured himself, I doubt many Democrats (especially those who wanted to get rid of Bush in '92) would have criticized Clinton for not pardoning him.

All things considered, I'd like to see governors pardon all death row inmates. But would I have traded four more years of Bush for Ricky Ray Rector? A tough ethical call, but you can be sure there were going to be way more victims of Bush policy more empathetic than Rector if Bush won in '92. You have to admire Clinton for carring enough about winning to do the smart things to win.

And if you don't think Bush would have turned this into a Willie Horton event had Clinton pardoned Rector, I'm just going to ask you to please not be a professional campaign manager for the democratic party.

[leftistagitator]

26. Chavez fulfilled all of the requirements set out by Kerry.

Therefore he and Kerry should be square by now. Kerry wanted a referendum process monitored by outside forces like the OAS and he got it. He pledged to respect Chavez's government if it won the referendum and I hold him to that pledge. He doesn't have to change his position, just follow through with his promises. Chavez is pro-FARC and pro-Castro, so I can't expect Kerry to take photo ops with him, but I do expect Kerry as president to not undermine Chavez nor to aid the opposition. As long as he follows through on his previous stance, US-Venezuelan relations should improve greatly,

[jpgray]

28. I hope he will reach out more to Chavez (nt)

[IndianaGreen]

30. Who is Kerry or Bush to set requirements to the Venezuelan people?

Or the Cuban people for that matter? A nation such as ours that is still in the grasp of racism and that has yet to have democratic elections of its presidents, sure as Hell has little room to go around the world dictating conditions to everyone else.

[Tatiana]

50. This is my question as well.

Who the hell are we to tell other nations what to do, given our own reign of terror visited upon Latin America. We privitized the hell out of Argentina and drove them into an economic crisis courtesy of the IMF. Chile? Plan Colombia? Nicaragua? Costa Rica? We invented the term "Banana Republic."

Not to mention, we're not all that keen on civil liberties or human rights ourselves given our escapades in Iraq and infliction of torture upon the Iraqi people.

[leftistagitator]

52. We have a lot of money, power, and influence in this world

and I see no problem in using our resources to help governments who derive their power from the people. Why should a totatitarian dictatorship be seen as equal to a democracy in the eyes of our government? On the other hand I do have a problem with destabilizing countries via military or covert action. Kerry never said he supported ousting Chavez, he merely said that if Chavez followed through with a well monitored referendum he would treat his government as a democratically elected government should be treated. Chavez kept his end of the bargain, I believe Kerry will keep his. Chavez has been supportive of Kerry for President, why use his name to denounce Kerry?

[IndianaGreen]

54. You obviously did not read Kerry's statement about Venezuela

Forget the spin that the campaign puts out!

Do a Google on his statement!

A rightwing website has it (what a surprise!):

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403220526

[leftistagitator]

62. Your link is broken

but I think I've read it. I know Kerry criticized Chavez for supporting the FARC and Castro and the completely bogus charge of arresting political opponents. But he has also pledged to support democratically run governments, even if he disagrees with them, specifically mentioning Aristide and Chavez.

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/archives/000425.php

This is from Al Giordano, of narconews.com fame. Both he and Chavez have been supportive of John Kerry, with the latter comparing Kerry to JFK. As well he might, because 4 more years of Bush* means 4 more years of CIA fun in the sun down in beautiful Venezuela.

[Tatiana]

44. Utter bullshit. This could be straight from the Bush administration.

Throughout his time in office, President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power. In fact, his close relationship with Fidel Castro has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.

"Politically motivated incarcerations?" Excuse me, Kerry, but these people attempted a COUP against a democratically elected President. They kidnapped and attempted to assassinate Chavez. They SHOULD be incarcerated, along with all the coup plotters. These people weren't just thrown in jail (the way our government does -- see Guantanamo), they were tried and convicted in court of law with overwheming evidence presented against them.

As far as Castro is concerned, his country provides thousands of doctors to give much needed health care services to the poor citizens in the barrios of Venezuela. In exchange, Cuba gets discounted prices on oil. If there wasn't such an INHUMANE and POINTLESS embargo of Cuba, perhaps Chavez and Castro wouldn't have a relationship. As it is, each country is providing needed services to the other.

The referendum has given the people of Venezuela the opportunity to express their views on his presidency through constitutionally legitimate means. The international community cannot allow President Chavez to subvert this process, as he has attempted to do thus far. He must be pressured to comply with the agreements he made with the OAS and the Carter Center to allow the referendum to proceed, respect the exercise of free expression, and release political prisoners.

Why would Chavez "subvert" the referendum process, when it was his idea to include it in the Venezuelan Constitution? "Political prisoners?" Attempt to assassinate a President, go to jail. That sounds fair to me. Give me a fucking break! I swear, this sounds like something written by a PNACer.

[IndianaGreen]

49. Actually, this drivel was written by a PPIer

Give me a fucking break! I swear, this sounds like something written by a PNACer.

Actually, this drivel was written by a PPIer, which is the progressive-in-name-only version of PNAC.

PS: Will Marshall, of PPI fame, was one of the signatories of the PNAC document.

[Zhade]

63. He's not just of PPI fame, he's the freaking founder!

I know you know this, just throwing it out there for those who don't know Mr. Marshall's pro-fascist tendencies.

Kerry should stay far from Marshall. Very far.

[Vladimir]

88. Of course he is full of shit

He is an American presidential candidate talking foreign policy. Seriously guys, I have long ceased taking any notice of Kerry's foreign policy pronouncements, since none of what he says now means anything after election day anyhow. That's the time to try and apply pressure... until then, I share your frustration but its what we have to live with.

As the Mag. would say - Lets go get those Bush bastards!

[TankLV]

45. More importantly, where's bush*s gongratulatory phonecall - you know

like the one he IMMDIATELY gave to the coup plotters last time - before Hugo was rightfully restored to his office.

THAT is what we, as democrats, should be raising holy hell over!

After all, who is pResident here?

Whether Kerry issues any statements or not is NOT the primary issue.

The silence of bunkerboy's thugs speaks volumes!

[Zhade]

56. Indeed! Now is the PERFECT time!

Unless, of course, imperialism wins the day once again...

[bvar22]

10. I wonder when bush* will offer his congrats????

I remember a Sunday morn show (MTP IIRC) during the weekend coup. On Sun morn, it appeared that the coup was successful at overthrowing Chavez. Condo Rice was on the show gloating and preening saying things like: "It takes more than getting a majority of the votes to legitimize a presidency".

Oh, I would love to see the look on her face now.

I hope the populist revolution spreads to the USA.
I'm doing my part!!!!

Our BIG OIL corps just posted RECORD PROFITS. That should be enough to pay for HEALTH CARE for ALL AMERICANS!

[Geo55]

14. Yep....

"It takes more than getting a majority of the votes to legitimize a presidency".

Like stacked Supreme court

[Cha]

23. I'm sure it's ugly as ever.

[Cha]

19. What? No call from bush?

I know President Carter, Jesse Jackson, and Dennis Kucinich ..among others wrote a letter of ecouragement before the recall vote..so I know those guys are Happy!

[IndianaGreen]

33. Steve Bell's cartoon on Chavez's victory

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,7371,337484,00.html

[RFKHumphreyObama]

34. Priceless

That's a great cartoon

[Judi Lynn]

59. Now THAT'S cool. I'm so glad he celebrated the event. Thanks! n/t

[Vladimir]

87. YESSSSSS!!!

Steve Bell, genius of all the ages!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

[AP]

35. I sense the opposition strategy will be this:

They're going to draw out a challenge to get a recount, which they know they're going to lose. I heard the extremely biased Michael Caesar (BBC Online/Christian Science Monitor) already argue for one, but he described the thing that would be recounted as pieces of papers the machines "spit" out. In other words, they aren't worth much. In other words, they know what the recount will say. Chavez won. So they have to discredit the recount at the same time they're arguing for it.

But, during this period they're going to try to cast Chavez as the choice of the US.

They know they lost because the US was obviously anti-Chavez. But Wall St knows that a coup would destabilize VZ. But the oligarchs don't care. They just want their guaranteed wealth back. They don't want to work for a living. So they'll say that the markets approve of Chavez because the US wants him (will VZ'ans actually believe this???). They'll even use Carter as part of the pro-Chavez US consipracy.

They'll do this for two years and hope that they can win the 2006 election based on these lies.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

39. But I don't see Hugos support among his people waning by then

on the contrary - I see it getting stronger

[AP]

41. Me too. None of the opposition strategy has worked (not even coup)

and I see this one being similarly fruitless. However, judging from their BS today, I think this is what they will try.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

42. Well, we know they won't give up - greed is a stubborn force in this world

In our country and abroad

[The Magistrate]

65. They Might As Well Give Up, My Friend

The result of this referendum is excellent news, albeit about what any dispassionate observer would have expected.

Over the next three years, as Col. Chavez' measures take ever more measurable effect, his support will grow even more firm among the ordinary people of Venezuela, and he will be easily able to direct a successor to carry on his reforms.

"There will be a holiday in our street soon!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

80. If you haven't read it here's a copy of the Constitution of the Bolivarian

Republic of Venezuela - just as an Public Service.
http://www.venezuela-avanza.de/verfassung_venezuela_-_eng.pdf.


I pray you are right, my friend!

- Peace


"Without love, deeds, even the most brilliant, count as nothing"

[rman]

68. agent provocateurs?

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=22453

Published: Monday, August 16, 2004
Bylined to: Vanessa Carolina del Valle Marcano

<snip>

"RNV PRESS (Luigino Bracci): After a massive traffic jam of Avenida Francisco de Miranda and Avenida San Juan Bosco, caused by opposition members, a group of motorcycle drivers (alleged to be Bolivarian government supporters) arrived on the scene and a shoot-out followed soon after.

<snip>

Reports from the neighborhood, complemented by images from Globovision, indicate that, after opposition supporters had closed down Avenida Francisco de Miranda as well as Avenida San Juan Bosco de Altamira, motorcyclists wearing government colors arrived at the Plaza.

Globovisión 24/7 TV has transmitted live images of the arrival of the motorcycle drivers, where it was seen how people from the opposition began throwing stones ... there were no images shown of what actually occurred after, but later, Globovision showed images of people wounded by gunfire.

<snip>

The regrettable result was four people wounded ... two of them gravely. Maritza Ron (61) took a bullet to her abdomen ... it was reported that she had died, but she is currently in intensive care (ICU) at the Clinica Avila hospital."

<more>

======


During the referendum there was a report about motorcycle drivers opening fire on Chavez supporters...

[Vladimir]

86. I doubt the Venezuelans will

give a shit frankly. As long as Chavez keeps improving the lives of the poor, they will vote for him. The scars of racism, my friend, run too deep for any propaganda to erase.

[TankLV]

47. Gee - I wonder where all those "dictator Chavez" posters are now?!

Some "dictator", huh?

How rude to actually rule by WINNING THE POPULAR VOTE OVERWHELMINGLY!

You posters know who I mean!

All hiding like cockroaches now that the light of truth is hitting them like a ton of bricks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Long Live Democracy!

[0007]

66. I think the paid trolls have had their transparency blurred, LOL!

[AP]

72. Their contracts terminated on Sunday.

And their waiting for new contracts once the opposition and their PR firms figure out what the next step will be.

[dumpster_baby]

67. You noticed that, too, huh?

It makes sense that the rightwing think tanks and foundations would pay people to post here. They pay people to write letters to the editor and opinion pieces...

THat said, I can tell you that most educated, "White" Venezuelans are indeed against Chavez. A friend of mine moved here from Venezuela because of Chavez. He was afraid that his land for his second home was going to be the victim of squatters or land reform.

Now that he has been here in the USA for a few years, he is planning to move to Australia: he says the corporations are ripping us off here in the USA. He likes the welfare state in Australia. Hmmm....

[geek tragedy]

74. One can be skeptical of Chavez and still support his right to rule

on behalf of his people now that he has won the referendum. It's simple politics that Kerry has to, at least publicly, disapprove of a guy who's pro-Castro and pro-FARC. Kerry would get crucified as a supporter of Communism and terrorism if he didn't.

President Kerry and Chavez will get along just fine.

[Classical_Liberal]

77. They wouldn't crucify him if he said nothing whatsoever about Chavez

On the other hand by taking a position he has further alienated the progressives in the party and demoralized them. Which I think the dlc would actually like to do.

[geek tragedy]

81. The hell they wouldn't.

"Why does John Kerry refuse to criticize a pro-Castro, pro-terrorist, anti-American dictator in our own hemisphere? More proof that Kerry can't be counted on to take a firm stand against our nation's enemies."

[Classical_Liberal]

84. And why would the American people respond to nonstatements?

Most Americans don't give a crap one way or another about Venezuala. Sorry your beliefs that he has to take a stand on an issue that most Americans no nadda about is counterintuitive.

The DLC encouraged Kerry to do this because Chavez acts like Democrats used to. My bet is Kerry keeps it up after elected.

[geek tragedy]

89. Wrong.

The Democratic party was never pro-Castro and pro-FARC.

They would have beat him up in Cuba over this. What was he supposed to do when reporters asked him questions--refuse to answer?

The bottom line is that Chavez's policies and rhetoric, while intended to help Venezuelans, make him radioactive in the US. Fair or not, the great majority of Democrats even (DU is not representative of democrats) don't like him.

[Classical_Liberal]

91. Who are you talking to?

?

Who said the Democrats were pro-castro or pro-farc?

I wanted to know why any sizable number of voters would be pissed at a non statement.

Also people were mad at Kerry's press releases which in no way were a responce to reporters questions. Reporters aren't going to ask about things most American's don't want to know.

As for your statements that most dems dislike Chavez. Back that one up.

I seriously doubt this.

[geek tragedy]

95. There's no survey research, but

take a look at liberal writers/bloggers. Even Paul Krugman doesn't like Chavez.

Kerry had to stake out the "tough" ground so that Bush couldn't paint him as soft on communism, terrorism, etc. He had to be proactive on this.

[Classical_Liberal]

99. Paul Krugman is a dlc balanced budget freak

not representitive of the bloggers I read. Nor do I think the represent the views of the majority of the people in the Party. The dlc including Krugman likes Nafta. Most Americans don't and even fewer dems do.

Being soft on communism is irrelevant because Hugo isn't a communist, and he also has nothing to do with terrorism. Most Americans know nothing about him and it wouldn't have hurt to keep his mouth shut.

[TankLV]

270. Ahh, you're back - not enough light I see.

Just who do you refer to as a "dictator" in your post?

Still haven't learned anything.

Your mind is made up and to hell with the facts.

Chavez is no "dictator" by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how hard you slander him to be.

Now, as for our miserable loser of over 500,000 votes who STILL is squatting in OUR White House, I wonder what terms would apply to him?

Currently, Chavez has proven that he is the most "democratic" leader in the entire Western Hemisphere, bar none.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. Showing support for Colombia's peasants doesn't make anyone

pro FARC. I don't know where you're getting that from but from what I can tell they're not fund of each other. I have seen no evidence that would support that statement.

I don't remember Clinton distancing himself from the Chinese govt., Saudi Royals or our old friend Mr Suharto. All these people make Fidel Castro look like Gandhi. Actually he seemed to get along with them pretty well. The day that our leaders show better judgment with they people they associate with is the day that we can demand the same of other leaders. (Not that I have any problems w/ Venezuela and Cuba working together).

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

90. Duhh. I meant fond of each other.n/t

[geek tragedy]

96. In reality, Castro is much better than those guys.

In terms of the irrational world of US politics, however, it's a different story.

Let's not forget Chavez's coziness with Carlos the Jackal, either. No US presidential candidate can afford to be seen as anything but actively disliking the guy.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

97. What's that got to do with the FARC?

It also doesn't change the fact that it's hypocritical for some lecture others about freedom that we seldom help them to achieve. What's Carlos the Jackal got to do with this (a source on that would be nice) ? The fact world leaders have had associations at one time or another with criminals is no secret. I don't hear Chavez telling the US who to do business or associate with, nor the Venezuelan people (they're far too busy dealing with all this shit).Democrats and Repugs do it all the time. Hopefully Col. Chavez will be more selective about his associates, clients or whatever they might be and so will the US govt.



edited for grammar and source remark.

[geek tragedy]

105. Kerry's concern is unseating the Bush junta, not being fair or nice

to St. Hugo. That goes for me as well.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

111. Whatever . Again, this has nothing to do w/ what I've said. Nor

anything to do w/ the FARC. I'm done with you. PEACE OUT!

[aneerkoinos]

112. junta

Kerry's only concern is saving the US bipartisan plutocratic oligarch junta, not being fair, nice, truthfull, constructive, honest, wise or just plain decent about anything. It's a project doomed by the forces of history, resistance is futile and makes your suffering only more painfull than needs to be.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

191. This forum isn't just for Dems

The DU rules say it is for Dems and other progressives. I am a Dem and I have a similar opinion of Kerry. I hope to God it is just to get elected, but my experience is that corporate dems campaign right and govern that way. I am only voting for him to give the neocons the finger and kill the career of their pet, then I am giving about two years for the Deaniacs(Democratic Progressives) to make showing in the Party, if I don't see it happening, I will work primarily on IRV, and probably quit the Dems altogether.

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

98. dupe

[Classical_Liberal]

100. Carlos the Jackal? WTF!

. Much more obscure than Hugo Chavez. I can't remember somebody I never knew anything about in the first place.

[geek tragedy]

104. See my response #103. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

101. Nice try!

I found that the level of "coziness" with Carlos the Jackal can be boiled down to his response to a letter sent to him by "Carlos the Jackal."

This new effort to assassinate Hugo Chavez' character only arrived on this message board yesterday. You are the second one to take up the slithery insinuations.

The Miami Herald
April 17, 1999


President responded to terrorist's letter
CARACAS -- President Hugo Chavez confirmed Friday that he sent a letter
to the convicted terrorist known as Carlos the Jackal, and said he feels
``human solidarity'' with Venezuelan-born Illich Ramirez Sanchez, who is
serving a life sentence in a Paris prison.

``I was in prison for two years, and I know it is heartening when one receives
a letter,'' Chavez told reporters. He said he wrote to Ramirez two months ago,
shortly after being inaugurated as president, in response to a letter from
Ramirez.

Local media reported that Chavez's letter was friendly. ``This does not imply
political solidarity. It is simply human solidarity. Every human being deserves
respect,'' Chavez said.
(snip/)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/guerrilla/letter.htm

SMOOTH MOVE! Keep up the good work.

[geek tragedy]

103. Dear lord, the Chavez moonies are having fits.

You'll excuse the rest of the world if we don't worship St. Hugo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/396846.stm

<snip>
President Chavez addressed Carlos as a distinguished compatriot and defended the letter by saying it showed human solidarity not political support.
<snip>

Chavez is the one who expressed "solidarity" with a notorious terrorist and murderer. Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it sure as hell bothers me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/332054.stm

<snip>
Venezuela has announced it is to investigate the capture of the country's most notorious criminal, Illich Ramireez Sanchez, known as Carlos the Jackal, who is serving a life sentence in France.

Venezuelan Foreign Minister Jose Vicente Rangel said the circumstances in which Carlos the Jackal was arrested in Sudan and taken to France for trial in 1994 would be re-examined.

. . .
Carlos has been at the centre of speculation since it emerged recently that he had received a letter from the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez.

Critics of the president say the letter amounted to open support of a convicted terrorist.

President Chavez addressed Carlos as "Dear compatriot" and, according to press reports, signed the letter "with profound faith in the cause and the mission, now and forever".

But President Chavez said he sent the letter as a mark of solidarity.

Carlos hsa been linked to the 1975 seizure of Opec ministers in Vienna, Austria, and the 1976 hijacking of an Air France jet to Uganda.

After three years in solitary confinement in a Paris jail, Carlos the Jackal has been sentenced to life imprisonment for killing two French secret agents and a Lebanese fellow revolutionary in 1975.
<snip>

Sorry, but the only thing slithery here is your hero's willingness to embrace Carlos the Jackal.

[Classical_Liberal]

106. I don't think you have a right to call anyone a moonie with this kind of

weak scandalmongering. From your first article.

"Among the Jackal's admirers is the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez, who has admitted writing to him in prison.

President Chavez addressed Carlos as a distinguished compatriot and defended the letter by saying it showed human solidarity not political support. "

There is no evidence that he has done anything to help this "Carlos the Jackle" in anyway.

Only that he wrote to him which for all we know was probably a responce to a letter Carlos wrote Chavez.

[geek tragedy]

108. "Distinguished compatriot?"

Yeah, no sympathy there.

And I'm sure it had nothing to do with Carlos's radical left politics. Nope.

Sorry, but a display of solidarity, along with "distinguished compatriot," is by itself a scandal.

You lose this round.

Edited to add text of letter: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1111/is_1793_299/ai_55881912

<snip>

Citizen Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, Distinguished Compatriot,

Swimming in the depths of your letter of solidarity I could hear the pulse of our shared insight that everything has its due time: time to pile up stones or hurl them, to ignite revolution or to ignore it; to pursue dialectically a unity between our warring classes or to stir the conflict between them--a time when you can fight outright for principles and a time when you must choose the proper fight, lying in wait with a keen sense for the moment of truth, in the same way that Ariadne, invested with these same principles, lays the thread that leads her out of the labyrinth.

Our liberator Simon Bolivar, whose theories and example are fundamental to our doctrine of revolution, whispered briefly this question before he passed away: "How will I find the way out of this labyrinth?" We agree with Bolivar that Time delivers miracles only to those who maintain a righteous spirit, to those who understand the true meaning of things. There is no measure of distance or time that can undermine these thoughts of our Caracan hero.

I feel that my spirit's own strength will always rise to the magnitude of the dangers that threaten it. My doctor has told me that my spirit must nourish itself on danger to preserve my sanity, in the manner that God intended, with this stormy revolution to guide me in my great destiny.

With profound faith in our cause and our mission, now and forever!
<snip>

Hugo Chavez: Terrorist sympathizer.

[Classical_Liberal]

109. Whatever, when he tries to bail Carlos maybe you'll have a real issue

. Other than that it just looks like Hugo was propagandizing his "Bolivarian Revolution" to somebody who wrote him a fan letter. He didn't praise any of his terrorist acts.

I know you dlcers hate him because he acts like an "old democrat" giving the rest of us hope for a more just society, but you aren't fooling anyone.

[geek tragedy]

117. No, we mainstream Democrats (i.e. not the leftist fringe)

don't like Fidel Castro. We don't like foreign leaders who take an aggressive anti-US stance in their foreign policy and rhetoric.

And we certainly don't like those who praise and express solidarity for terrorist murderers.


What Chavez did would be the equivalent of aWol or Sharon writing letters of support to someone like Baruch Goldstein.

Chavez is the legal and rightful leader of Venezuela, and they're entitled to choose their own leader.

But spare me the patently false bullshit that "real" Democrats admire Hugo Chavez.

[Vladimir]

130. Fidel Castro anti-US?

methinks you have that backwards - the US is anti-Castro. Which makes a world of difference, because given the choice it is well know that Castro would relish normal relations with the US. So why don't you cut the paternalistic party-line bollocks? Compared to the people most American presidents associate and feel sympathy for, Carlos the Jackal is a veritable humanist.

[Classical_Liberal]

182. Chavez is not Castro. I didn't like Apartheid and this country

had diplomatic relations with it, I don't like the Israeli settlers who govern Israel and my government has diplomatic relations with them. The fact that Chavez is willing to have diplomatic relations with Castro, doesn't make him a tyrant.

I am not leftest fringe on any of those countries. You dlcers liked the war and continue too. The majority who didn't think the war was a good idea aren't leftest fringe. The majority who want national health insurance aren't leftest fringe, nor are the majority who would like to cut aid to Israel. Yet the dlc stubbornly opposes all these things in favor of big money donors.

I never said real democrats like Hugo. I am doubtful most know who he is. You said the majority hated Hugo and I asked you to back it up and you never did.

[geek tragedy]

230. Oh screw off.

I was anti-war from the beginning. I support a single payer, universal health insurance system. I think we should cut aid to Israel, or at least heavily tie it to meaningful steps to free Palestine.

I think we should normalize relations with Castro for a variety of reasons--even though I don't care for him. We do have relations with worse despots, and the embargo does more harm than good.

Btw, what figures do you have to show that a majority agree with us that we should cut aid to Israel and have universal, single payer healthcare?

[Classical_Liberal]

246. A recent Zogby poll on Israel

According to a new Zogby International Poll commissioned by the Washington-based Council for the National Interest “half of all likely American voters agree that Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry ‘should adopt an entirely new policy, different from the present administration, towards Israel.’ The poll, conducted during the Democratic Convention, showed that 51% of likely voters somewhat or strongly agreed that a policy change was necessary. Only 34% strongly or somewhat disagreed. The number who supported Kerry adopting a new policy towards Israel was even higher among Democrats: 70% of Democrats, Kerry’s voter base, supported such a change.” It has also been reported that 90% of Democratic Convention delegates did not support the war in Iraq.

http://www.world-crisis.com/analysis_comments/629_0_15_0_C/

For national health insurance and single payer even.

Today the physicians’ group was “pleased but not surprised” that public support for a “universal health insurance program, in which everyone is covered under a program like Medicare that’s run by the government and financed by taxpayers” is high and rising rapidly. By a 2:1 margin (62 percent to 32 percent), an ABC News - Washington Post Poll released today found that the public favors national health insurance to “the current health insurance system, in which most people get their health insurance from private employers, but some people have no insurance”...........

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/october/majority_of_american.php

[TankLV]

273. Good one. Why don't you tell us all to"fuck off you fucking asshole"

like you did to me by private email?

You have absolutely no credibility on this forum, and you show it by each passing tirade and insult.

Keep it up. I'm sure you'll last long.

[TankLV]

272. "we mainstream Democrats"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You and who else?

Thanks for the laugh of the day.

You loose on trying to lie about Chavez being a "dictator" in all your other posts, having lost that, you now resort to another straw man - "he wrote a letter to someone!"

This is too easy.

Thanks for proving our point.

[aneerkoinos]

113. Human Solidarity

Jesus expressed solidarity with notorious evil-doers, are you saying that saint Hugo should not try to follow the example of Jesus? Saint Hugo's understanding and forgiveness towards those who try to harm him and Venezuela should be example to all of us, too bad the appeasers and apologists to Kerry's version of imperialism and chauvinism are blind to the fact there are other ways than blind hatred of ones political opponents, even when they are as misguided and harmfull as George W. Bush.

And you are wrong to think that we are uncritical of Chavez, he's a politician and populist and there's lot to be constructively critical about his policies and how he conducts those policies. Alas, you have yet to offer any such criticism. My first criticism is that perhaps Chavez has not done enough, despite his attempts and good intentions, to depersonify Venezuelan democracy so that it would survive when Chavez is gone.

[geek tragedy]

119. Did Jesus have common cause with murderers and call them

"distinguished compatriots?"

My guess is no.

[Classical_Liberal]

200. Jesus was scandalized for his friendships with prostitutes and tax

collectors, and adulteresses. Does that mean he shared their sins? Besides, I doubt Chavez wrote that letter in English. So he never used the specific "Destinguished Compatriots": address. That was a translation, probably by Chavez haters like you.

[geek tragedy]

233. Comparing Jesus's befriending the victims of an unjust, discriminatory

society and Chavez's embrace of a remorseless murderer is laughable.

St. Hugo indeed.

[Classical_Liberal]

242. Saying that this letter represents a close friendship is what is truely

laughable. Tax Collectors aren't victims of anything. They were people working for Rome who often employed oppressive and thugish tactics against ordinary people. Adulteresses, are both wrongdoers and victims if they are stoned. They did something bad, but didn't deserve a stoning for it.

[geek tragedy]

244. Close friendship? Where did I use those words.

The letter expresses sympathy, praise, support, and common cause.

[Classical_Liberal]

248. Expressed a common cause of ordinary people, and the poor and oppressed

There was no endorcement of terrorism and you damn well know it. It hardly represented an "embrace if a terrorist", which is an obviously implying he embraces terrorism itself. Common causes are not a big fucking deal. The Palestinians who are trying to make a country for themselves peacefully aren't terrorist just because they have the same goal with those Palestinians that are terrorists.

[aneerkoinos]

245. Are you Christian?

I guess not, that would explain your ignorance about Jesus' teaching. "Love thy enemy" ring a bell?

[geek tragedy]

247. That's funny.

I guess George W. Bush is just being Christian towards the Saudi Royal Family. I guess Dick Cheney is just being Christian towards Halliburton. I guess the Republican party is just being Christian towards the superwealthy and the racists.

Too damn funny.

[Classical_Liberal]

249. Tell me how Chavez is profiting Carlos the Jackle in the way

Bush is profiting the Saudi Royals? What has Chavez done for him other then writing a letter expressing a common sympathy for the poor?

[IndianaGreen]

114. Carlos the Jackal?

You have been watching too many Hollywood movies!

[geek tragedy]

121. And you've been reading too few newspapers. eom

[AP]

123. How is this information important or even relevant to what Chavez is doing

in VZ?

During the coup, those snipers who shot protesting VZ's in the head, which international terrorists do you think were their pen pals?

[geek tragedy]

124. In terms of Venezuela's poor, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

However, it does raise the question of Chavez's attitude towards political violence. If he's willing to embrace a murderous scumbag like CtJ, what does he consider unacceptable?

[AP]

126. And he's been guilty of political violence when? It's BS guilt by...

...association.

If you had evidence of Chavez's political violence you'd spend your energy talking about that. (And that's if you had the courage, because you'd have to contrast it to the actual political violence committed AGAINST Chavez and his supporters.)

Even the guilt by association angle is feeble, because I'm sure you don't want to talk about the associates of the opposition, do you?

If he's willing to embrace a murderous scumbag like CtJ, what does he consider unacceptable?

This is an especially idiotic statement because Chavez wasn't just elected for the first time yesterday. He has been in politics a long time. I think we have a pretty good idea of what he thinks is politically acceptable and unacceptable.

Instead of talking about Castro and Carlos, why don't you talk about his record.

[geek tragedy]

129. His record is mixed.

He is certainly a demagogue, and has demonstrated authoritarian tendencies, even if he hasn't gone down that path. And there has been political violence against Chavez opponents (but of course that is them killing themselves for photo ops. :eyes:)

You can choose to ignore his sympathies for terrorists who share his political ideology if you want. If I were a terrorist, I would certainly view Hugo Chavez's Venezuela as a relatively safe place from which to operate. So long as my targets were the right ones.

[AP]

134. Again, where's your evidence. So much energy on Castro and CtJ...

...and all you can say is that Chavez sent those two guys in the new sneakers out to kill people? You really think Chavez ordered them out there? It's one thing to make fun of DU'ers to say they were opposition, but it's another for you to make an argument that, after winning a referendum, Chavez ordererd those guys out on the streets to shoot up the opposition. (Either your bias or your ignorance is really showing with that allegation.)

I'm not choosing to ignore anything. I'm trying to understand your argument. You're saying Chavez will be bad because of this shit, yet Chavez has a LLLOONNNGGG record now of what he considers acceptable politics, and you can cite NO evidence other than this BS guilt by association.

I'm just trying to prod you into supporting your thesis with facts that make sense.

[geek tragedy]

137. You mean you've forgotten the past violence against Chavez opponents?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2551221.stm

<snip>
The marches come one day after three people were killed and 29 injured when shots were fired at an opposition rally.
<snip>

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/694EC7BB-53C3-4F67-927C-FF863C50E263.htm
<snip>
Witnesses reported that at least one person was hurt on Sunday when Chavez supporters allegedly threw stones, bottles and firecrackers at opposition supporters visiting a local mayor detained at security police headquarters.

It was the first violent incident since Chavez and his opponents began their formal campaigns leading up to the referendum on the leftist president's rule.

Armed officers guarding the Caracas headquarters of the DISIP political police did not intervene to stop the attack, witnesses also said.

Supporters of Henrique Capriles, the mayor of Caracas'
Baruta district who has been detained for alleged incitement
since 11 May, scattered when masked youths attacked them.

At least one of the alleged attackers carried a poster urging
voters to support Chavez in the referendum.
<snip>

[AP]

143. One guy who was killed was killed with a wrist rocket, which was the

weapon the opposition were using.

And why oh why would Chavez order his supporters to go out and committ political violence when he has 60% support among the electorate?

Terrorists don't resort to terrorism if they can win democratically.

Tempers flare when the fascists try to take back power undemocratically, but, seriously, why would Chavez authorize or advocate violence when it could only ever hurt the legitimacy of his inevitable democratic victory?

Do you have ANY evidence (or even a logical argument) that Chavez approved of or ordered those acts of violence?

[geek tragedy]

147. Besides the dead bodies of his opponents? n/t

[Classical_Liberal]

252. Did it go over your head that the opponant had an accident

and shot himself? .

[AP]

262. It makes no sense that Chavez would order people killed when he's winning

at the ballot box.

Look at who's doing the murdering. It's the people who can't win at the ballot box.

How are you connecting those dead bodies to Chavez?

You have neither the facts nor the logical inference.

[AP]

131. 130 posts into this thread, I suspect you're not going to come up with

any real evidence.

Let me know if you're even going to try so I don't waste my time checking this thread.

[geek tragedy]

135. As I've noted, he has refused to criticize or take sides against

FARC. His supporters have attacked his opponents. He's looking to make himself an elected king. His hero is a dictator. He made a point of supporting Saddam.

And he likes terrorists.

He may be fine for Venezuelans, but he is a problem for the United States. And that has nothing to do with what he does with Venezuela's oil money.

[Vladimir]

140. The Saddam card is down!

Ah, I was waiting for that... it was as predictable as rain in Britain. He made a point of saying he opposed sanctions, which has been the mainstream position of, for example, European progressives (and indeed not only European ones). How aweful.

[geek tragedy]

148. Yep, just a dry discussion of sanctions.

He joins Donald Rumsfeld and Jacque Chirac in Saddam's picture gallery.

[Vladimir]

153. He visited the country

during his presidency of OPEC. What would you have him do exactly, refuse to meet Saddam? Bullshit.

[geek tragedy]

164. Pictures don't lie:

[AP]

154. If Rumsfeld where an OPEC minister, he'd have had a reason to be in those

pictures too.

[geek tragedy]

162. Rumsfeld is in pictures with Saddam.

Do you really want to compare your hero with Rumsfeld?

[AP]

199. You're blaming Chavez for going to an OPEC meeting? Rumsfield probably

didn't have an obligation to go talk to Hussein about fighting Iran and purchasing chemical weapons.

[geek tragedy]

204. Chavez didn't have an obligation to go to Baghdad.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/08/10/iraq.chavez.03/

<snip>
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez continues his tour of OPEC member nations Friday after being welcomed warmly by Iraq and its isolated leader, Saddam Hussein.

"We are very happy to be in Baghdad, to smell the scent of history and to walk on the bank of the Tigris River," Chavez told a news conference shortly before midnight (2000 GMT) Thursday.

He said he was received warmly by Hussein, who "honored" him by driving him around Baghdad. "I extend my deep gratitude to him for the warm welcome he gave us," Chavez said through an interpreter.

The arrival of Chavez, the first head of state to visit Iraq since the start of the 1991 Gulf War, delighted his hosts.
<snip>

[Vladimir]

218. After visiting Saudi Arabia

it would have been the height of hypocrisy to not go to Iraq...

[geek tragedy]

225. Why is that? Dozens of world leaders have visited SA

without visiting Saddam.

[AP]

227. What was going to happen in Iraq was about to have serious consequences

on OPEC, the price of oil, and the likelihood of a coup in VZ.

It seems like a smart thing to go get some first-hand evidence from Hussein so that Chavez could make some assessments about what was likely to happen.

[Vladimir]

231. Because SA

in many ways worse than Saddam's government ever was. Which is why the actions of most of these world leaders were the height of hypocricy. Which was my point.

[AP]

141. His supporters attacked his opponents. Chavez is responsible for that?

Care to explain the circumstances? People get pretty mad when the other side does things like has snipers murder you from rooftops. Chavez has done an amazing job of convincing his supporters to get revenge at the ballot boxes rather than in kind.

And are you SERIOUS with the implication that Chavez is going to unleash terrorists on the US? That has got to be the stupidest argument I've heard today.

You're a lawyer, right? You know the rules of evidence, don't you? Don't you?

[AP]

144. Furthermore, it's better for the US to have a rich middle class in VZ

Do you know that car sales are up a lot in VZ because more working and middle class people can afford cars.

Fuck control of the VZ oil industry by Texans. I'm sure a lot of Michiganders are happy that Ford and Chrysler have somewhere they can sell a few cars now that Americans are feeling the middle class pinch, thanks to GWB crap politics.

[bullimiami]

75. this really puts on display how piss poor (or slanted) our media is.

LANDSLIDE!!

It should have been pretty damn obvious that he had solid support and would win this referendum. Our media, and the world corporate media like the ass press painted a picture of a country that had enough of Chavez and constanly demonized his administration as leftist and radical. They always made it seem like the referendum was likely to pass.

Either they are just completely incompetent or they just lie like dogs.

[Classical_Liberal]

78. They lie, but I don't know what that has to do with dogs who aren't

capable of lies.

[goodhue]

79. Statement Of Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich On President Chavez’s Victory

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/040816chavez.html

For Immediate Release
Monday, August 16, 2004
Statement Of Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich On President Chavez’s Victory

Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), Ranking Member of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations, issued the following statement today on President Chavez's victory:

“I congratulate President Hugo Chavez on his decisive victory. President Chavez’s victory is a victory for the people of Venezuela and for the democratic process. Today’s results demonstrate the people of Venezuela’s confidence in President Chavez and his presidency. I will work to ensure that this Administration recognizes that the people of Venezuela have spoken, and that the United States government now must show its support for the people of Venezuela and President Chavez.”

[Judi Lynn]

92. How quaint the moment Hugo Chavez won the recall

we started seeing one poster yesterday, followed by one today, claiming Hugo Chavez to be a FARC sympathizer. These labels should be supported by actual evidence, but that's far harder to provide than the slurs, isn't it?

Now today we hear the "pro-FARC" slur, followed by pro-Castro, which would also refer to several Latin American leaders, and embellished by the "pro-terrorist" slimey insinuation.

Please ask these posters to provide a respectable link to proof before you buy these character assassination attempts.

Already on the path today trying to drag hatred for Chavez over and combine it with hatred for Fidel Castro. How contemptible.

Trying to pull the wool over the eyes of Democrats is stupid.

[geek tragedy]

107. What part of the facts don't you like--

His expression of "solidarity" with and supporting the same "cause" as Carlos the Jackal?

That he is outspoken in his admiration for Fidel Castro?

His refusal to condemn or hinder FARC?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/415854.stm

<snip>President Hugo Chavez appeared on television thanking the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, for their humanitarian gesture in releasing the plane, passengers and crew, skipping over the question of who was responsible for the hijack.

Co-pilot Luis Biggott was also released at the weekend
The FARC claim that they found the plane in the remote border province of Arauca and that the hijackers fled when they arrived.

The pilot of the plane told a different story, saying the hijackers greeted the guerrillas warmly and stayed with the group for several days in the FARC camp.

Colombian authorities maintain that the FARC did carry out the hijacking, then, realising the public relations disaster it entailed and the potential damage it could do to relations with Venezuela, concocted the story of the hijacking having been committed by opponents of the Venezuelan President.

With this incident, President Chavez has again revealed his sympathy for the guerrilla movement and has made no secret of his eagerness to play a role in the peace process between the FARC and the Colombian Government.
<snip>

[Classical_Liberal]

110. This is even more lose then the the Calos the Jackle bogey

Your very last paragraph shows the Chavez is engaging in a peace process between the two groups. He's a politician.

[aneerkoinos]

115. Saint Hugo

"thanking the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, for their humanitarian gesture in releasing the plane, passengers and crew,"

Yes, cursed be the peace-makers.

[Judi Lynn]

116. Some of us are aware that Fidel Castro is friendly with many leaders

in this hemisphere. He was friendly with Pierre Treudeau.



Has been friendly with Vicente Fox, until _Bush put a grab on Mr. Fox.

He's friendly with Luis Inacio Lula da Silva.

He's also friendly with Nestor Kirchner.


As for your FARC charges, you are simply whistling Dixie here. He's no terrorist sympathizer, and many of us here are completely aware that Roberto Alonso, Cuban "exile" living near Caracas recently was found with over 100 Colombian soldiers on his ranch, along with guns and ammunition, after they were spotted and reported and arrested. Alonso is an extreme right-winger and had these guys brought in a few months before the recall.

As terrorists go, the ones who slaughter people using chain saws are the paramilitaries, completely identified with Uribe's government. Given enough time, maybe a real Colombian might see your scrawlings here and offer you his views.

All that's missing here is any of us having enough time to sit down and do the research. Everything needed is right there for any of us who have the time.

I'll be back later, as I'm still attempting an evening at home with my husband. You're not going to win this one, be sure of it.

[geek tragedy]

120. Did Trudeau say that he was going to follow Castro's example?

My guess is no.

[AP]

122. And this, and Carlos the Jackal have to do with Chavez's policies how?

Does Chavez use terror and oppression to ensure that economic and political power flow down to the people? Does he need to? Are the majority of the citizens of Venezuela so resistant to progress that he can't rest on the consitution and the ballot bock to pass laws which make Venezuela's economy work well for a lot of people?

Is Castro and Carlos the Jackal what the former insiders who ran pdvsa for their own profits are upset about? Or are they upset about the guaranteed wealth their being justifiably denied?

Are these tangential relationships the things they exploit simply because they have no other argument for why power shouldn't flow down to the people?

[geek tragedy]

125. As I said in another post, CtJ is not relevant to Venezuela's poor.

But, he is relevant to Chavez's presence on the world stage. Embracing a serial murderer like CtJ indicates a serious lack of moral, legal, and diplomatic judgment--at the very least.

[AP]

127. "indicates a serious lack of moral, legal, and diplomatic judgment."

That is so dumb.

Do you have anything else in Chavez's long record as a politician to support this claim other than this lame 'guilt by association'?

[geek tragedy]

132. You mean besides the political violence against his opponents

and his refusal to side with a neighboring government against a terrorist insurgency?

The guy likes terrorists who share his ideology. No one forced him to embrace CtJ. He chose to associate himself with a terrorist. There is nothing wrong with "guilt by association" in such circumstances.

[AP]

138. What political violence against his enemies? When has Chavez engaged

in political violence against his enemies.

There was an incident, I believe, where the army used strong arm tactics in the last couple years. Chavez gave a speech criticising it and saying he would address the training methods and the culture of the army and would hold the people responsible who ordered the violence.

Now, when you call Castro a terrorist, I suspect your blaming him for the things he orders his army to do. So what did Chavez order anyone to do that you don't like?


As for the FARC, I believe that Chavez has arrested FARC and turned them over to Columbia. This criticism is so hollow, I believe even Bush has given up on trying to use it to cast aspersions on Chavez.

[geek tragedy]

145. I called Castro a dictator, not a terrorist.

Regarding FARC, I'd like some evidence of that. There are press reports (and I know that there is no fully reliable press in that part of the world) that Chavez is supporting FARC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1793819.stm

He has refused to side with Colombia's government against the bastards in FARC--I doubt he's actively making FARC's life more difficult.

[AP]

149. Google it yourself:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Chavez+FARC&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Obviously one side wants to claim the association exists and guilt should be inferred as a result (sound familiar), and the other side says they have only made contact in order to free hostages (once on behalf of the US! and another time at the request of Germany), and that they have cooperated with Columbia by arresting guerillas and turning them over to Columbia in particular situations. It's hardly enough to condemn the guy.

[geek tragedy]

158. You accuse me of lacking facts?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&as_qdr=all&q=Chavez+FARC+arrest+OR+arrested+OR+arrests+OR+arresting&btnG=Search

Tell me what you find regarding arrests of FARC members in Venezuela.

[AP]

165. I like this one:

The new propaganda campaign emanating from Colombia further illustrates that the Colombian military's principle concern is not the U.S.-sponsored drug war, but the defeat of the FARC. Clearly, Colombian warmongers are willing to manipulate current events in order to accommodate Washington's foreign policy interests if it results in more military aid. And it is only a matter of time before Washington's neoliberal warriors begin subverting new anti-terrorist policies to serve their own political and economic interests in Colombia in much the same way they manipulated the Cold War and drug war policies of the past.

http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia83.htm

And you should read this one too:





“Many fear that his friendship with Fidel Castro could herald a Cuban-style socialist system for Venezuela, and worry about his apparent sympathy with neighbouring Colombia's leftwing rebels”, Brodzinsky informs us, without telling us exactly who these worried “many” are. There is also a straight lie dressed as a truth in the sentence when she talks about “apparent” sympathy for the FARC guerrillas on the part of Chavez. We publicly challenge Brodzinsky to provide any proof (a quote would suffice) to demonstrate this. The only thing she would have found out if she had carried out her journalistic duties is that Chavez offered to mediate between the Colombian government and the FARC guerrillas, at a time when the two sides were engaged in peace talks. This is not just a small detail or an unimportant oversight.



A major part of the US administration and Venezuelan opposition campaign to oust Chavez is to brand his government as being “supportive of terrorism”. Since the FARC guerrillas are considered by Washington to be “narco-terrorists” the intention in associating Chavez with the FARC becomes clear. In a world dominated by Bush’s “war on terror”, this is a very serious accusation to make. Not only does Brodzinsky not provide evidence for this opposition allegation, but she tries to cover herself by saying that this “sympathy” is “apparent”. This is convenient because it removes the need to provide any proof, but it is appalling journalism.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1185

[geek tragedy]

170. Those aren't facts, those are opinions offered by

Marxist/leftist supporters of Chavez.

Thanks for the laugh.

[AP]

174. Articles below are asking people making allegations like yours the same

questions I am asking you. Where are the facts?

The article above you provided through your google search. I didn't realize that you weren't relying on it.

[geek tragedy]

178. My point is that Chavez doesn't take terrorism seriously

and will not do what a national leader is obligated to do to oppose terrorism.

You haven't provided any evidence that he's doing anything to prevent terrorism or even make terrorists' lives inconvenient.

Combine his lack of efforts to oppose terrorism with his sympathies towards terrorists who share his ideology, and the evidence indicates that he doesn't object to terrorism.

[AP]

183. Biggest terrorists in VZ today: the oppostion. Why don't you condemn them?

Perhaps you're not aware of the camp of soldiers hanging out on the ranch next to Cinsneros's who were arrested about a month ago? Maybe you're blocking the memory of opposition snipers shooting at protesters?

For a guy who cares so much about terrorism, you seem to put a lot more weight on a handshake and a letter than a bullet in the head.

[geek tragedy]

186. We're not discussing his loathsome plutocratic opponents.

I despise those despotic, racist fuckers.

However, we're discussing Chavez and why, in terms of US politics, Kerry has to disapprove of the guy.

"But the other guys are worse" isn't much of a defense.

[AP]

192. It makes you sound like a hypocrite.

You don't need to lie about Chavez to justify Kerry's actions. Kerry has the right approach to Chavez based on the facts. You don't have to make up shit to justify Kerry's position.

[geek tragedy]

195. Who says I'm lying?

I, like most Democrats in the non-cyber world, don't like Hugo Chavez. This echochamber does not reflect political reality.

There are people who honestly don't like Hugo Chavez out of principle.

[AP]

223. I don't know anyone who doesn't like him.

Either they don't know him and don't have an opinion, or they know him and like him a great deal.

Sure, some are drinking the Kool-Aid in the major media, but with a little information, they figure out the truth pretty quickly.

[geek tragedy]

228. Less arrogance and a wider circle of friends would benefit you.

I'm not going to say that people are wrong for supporting the guy--much of his agenda is praiseworthy.

It's this absolute, fanatical intolerance of a dissenting opinion--the messianic conviction that anyone who doesn't like Chavez is either a fascists or a moron or a sheep--that is extremely offensive.

Chavez supporters are not by definition the smartest, wisest, and most knowledgeable people on the planet.

Get over yourselves. You don't live up to your own hype.

[AP]

258. All I'm asking you to do is make logical, factually supported arguments.

You say Chavez ordered those people to shoot opposition demonstrators. It makes no sense and it's not based in fact. Neither is the implication that Chavez is harboring terrorists who threaten the security of the US.

You can dislike Chavez all you want, but I'm still going to press you for sensible arguments explaining why.

[eridani]

265. Yes. Ignoramuses who have no contact with the world press n/t

[eridani]

264. The government of Columbia is the most vicious bunch of terrorists

in our hemisphere. Half of the world's murdered union organizers are from Columbia.

FARC has gone in for major assholism because the US and the government of Columbia have killed off most of their members who aren't assholes. The last time FARC tried to participate in the political process non-violently, more than 1000 of its candidates were slaughtered by paramilitaries.

If you were a microbiologist who saturated a petri dish with a 200 different antibiotics, I'm sure you'd blame any bacteria still growing there for being nasty superbugs instead of yourself for overdoing the antibiotics.

[AP]

167. Try this one on for size too (you'll recognize some of the techniques)

Robinson assumes that her truly weak arguments have proven Venezuelan government complicity in supporting Middle Eastern terrorists and to further support her case, she digs up the old claim that Venezuela is also supporting Colombia’s guerrilla movements, the FARC and the ELN. According to her, U.S. News has maps that “actually pinpoint the location of camps” of the Colombian guerrillas inside of Venezuela. How in the world does a map with dots prove anything? Anyone can mark a map and claim that they are secret camps. Given the “first hand reports” she claims to have, references to such maps are clearly meant to give legitimacy where her anonymous sources can’t.



Robinson then goes on to claim that the “first hand reports” prove government support for the guerillas. However, all they prove, if they are true, is that the border is porous, that there are camps within Venezuelan territory and that there are (probably corrupt) Venezuelan officers involved in drug smuggling and arms dealing. None of this proves in the least that official high-level government support the guerrillas. Anyone who knows anything about the area knows that the it is like the Wild West, with Venezuelan and Colombian military, paramilitary, drug-smuggling, kidnapping, and guerilla activity originating from both sides of the border. The area is a complete mess, as far as law and order are concerned. One could blame the government for this mess, but it is a mess for which the U.S. and Colombian governments also bear their share of responsibility. The area is ideal for drug-smuggling because it is a relatively easy passage to Maracaibo Lake and then to the Caribbean.



Another unnamed “U.S. official” says, according to Robinson, that “It's no secret the level of cooperation that the Venezuelan government is giving to the Colombian groups, from the shipment of arms in, to the shipment of drugs out, to the movement of people in and out of Colombia.” If this is no secret, then why does the U.S. government not make a formal complaint and officially declare Venezuela a “narco-state”? Robinson then quotes the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Meyers, who in August made statements where he compared Venezuela to Syria. Robinson uses these statements as further proof that Venezuela is involved in terrorism. However, while the statement caused a diplomatic row between the U.S. and Venezuela, Robinson took them out of context because Meyers did not say that there was any proof of Venezuela supporting terrorism. He said, “I think there is more to learn with respect to Venezuela and we are going to have to continue to explore that.” The rest of his statements were completely hypothetical, saying that if Venezuela supported terrorism, then one could compare Venezuela to Syria.



Next, Robinson connects the FARC and ELN with the Bolivarian Liberation Front (FBL) and the Bolivarian Circles. There is a complete lack of any substantiating evidence to any of these claims (except for the unexplained use of quotation marks around the word “instrumental” when describing FARC and ELN involvement). It may well be that there are connections between the three armed groups (FARC, ELN, FBL), but again, this does not prove the overall argument that Venezuela is supporting terrorism. As for the Bolivarian Circles, the vast majority of these are unarmed community groups, as numerous international reporters have already discovered. It is pure opposition propaganda to present these as some kind of paramilitary group.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1027

[geek tragedy]

173. More self-serving opinions.

I'm not saying that Chavez is an active supporter of terrorism.

What I'm saying is that he isn't opposed to it either.

[AP]

175. Exactly. Just like yours. This article is asking the people who make....

....allegations like yours to support with facts their self-serving allegations.

[geek tragedy]

179. How many arrests of FARC members have you uncovered?

What kind of action has Chavez taken against FARC members who are operating inside Venezuela?

[AP]

169. Another good one addressing the techniques you employ:

On June 15, 2004, El Universal, one of Venezuela’s largest daily newspapers, printed a story alleging a Colombian wire service had published a declassified Pentagon document proving the Venezuelan government had given $1 million to the ELN and FARC during 2002 (See www.eluniversal.com/2004/06/16/pol_art_16106A.shtml).



The El Universal article included citations from the alleged Pentagon document that detailed how the Chávez administration funneled the money through a company on the border between Colombia and Venezuela that in turn, used the financing for the Colombian guerrilla.



Several things were odd about the June 15 El Universal article. For one, the allegedly declassified Pentagon document was cited but not produced, and additionally, the supposed article in the Colombian press was never named, linked to or subsequently found through numerous searches and attempts. But even more odd than these mishaps is the fact that Venezuelafoia.info obtained the document in question from the Department of Defense just a few days prior to its reference in El Universal. Obviously most important is the fact that the document remained unpublished and had been viewed only by Venezuelafoia.info and had not yet been made available to the public.



How the document made it into the Venezuelan media is unknown. Yet the failure of El Universal to produce the document raises the question of whether or not it was ever in the paper’s possession or ever mentioned in the Colombian media. Only once the document is actually seen and read does it become evident as to why El Universal would not want it published.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1203

[AP]

172. More on the Robinson allegations (which were unsuported by facts)

Robinson's article came out on October 6th and is a sample of propaganda- journalism. Among other things, Ms. Robinson claims that the Chavez administration is importing foreigners en masse and giving them Venezuelan passports. She does not provide any factual backing for this statement. The article also mentions the case of Hakim Mamad al Diab Fatah and blames the Venezuelan government for failing to keep tabs on him after the U.S. deported him in 2002. U.S. authorities themselves detained Diab Fatah in the United States, but then deported him (rather than keeping him in jail) because they lacked sufficient evidence to justify holding him. If Diab Fatah was indeed the dangerous character that Robinson's unnamed sources claim, one wonders why the United States set him free in the first place. In the aftermath of September 11, the U.S. government has not been reluctant to hold foreigners in custody on mere suspicion of involvement with terrorist activities.

Ms. Robinson also joined Venezuelan and Colombian politicians and media conglomerates in falsely claiming that the Venezuelan government has been involved in supporting the FARC guerilla organization.

These absurd claims have been proven absolutely false over and over again. For example on August 8, 2003, the Colombian newspaper, El Espectador, published an article that states that Moises Roberto Boyer Riobueno claimed to have been a pilot for Venezuelan vice president Jose Rangel and claimed to have helped ferry FARC commanders in and out of Colombia on Rangel's orders. The Colombian intelligence service later found every one of Boyer's claims to be false and he was deported. Boyer's declarations had appeared in newspapers worldwide. Once it was exposed that his statements were fabricated, his case disappeared from the press without clarification.

None of the statements made by Ms. Robinson can endure the test of validation. What led or misled Ms. Robinson to endanger her career by writing an article of this kind is something to wonder about. The people in the United States are everyday learning more and more about what is really happening in Venezuela and other countries. They have access to alternative sources of information and they are learning to be suspicious of its government's assessments and affirmations (see weapons of mass destruction and Iraq).

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1031

[geek tragedy]

176. I didn't cite a Robinson article, unless my memory fails me.

I still haven't seen any evidence of Venezuela doing anything to make FARC's life more difficult.

[AP]

184. Didn't say you cited it. Said you employed its techniques.

We're going to back up for a minute.

Now, why do I have to defend Chavez re FARC?

[geek tragedy]

188. Because he refuses to do anything about FARC

activities or to even take sides against FARC.

There is a complete lack of evidence that he is willing to do anything, even symbolically, that would be construed as opposition to terrorism and terrorists.

[AP]

190. Sounds like you've been drinking Robinson's Kool-Aid.

What is Chavez refusing to do? Mediate peace talks. Nope, he did that.

It couldn't be that you're opinion is formed by the unsubstantiated evidence (and, possibly lies) these articles cite?

[geek tragedy]

193. How about arresting FARC members or

taking sides against them?

Still waiting for you to back up your claim that he's arresting FARC members.

[AP]

197. Even if I misrembered that, what does it prove for you?

I'm not sure you've even made the case that Chavez has done anything wrong here.

You're saying his bad for not doing something, but haven't proved that he even had the opportunity to not do that thing.

[geek tragedy]

201. The absolute lack of arrests of FARC members

who are operating in Venezuela (and these insurgencies, whether they be in El Salvador or Colombia or Nicaragua, always operate across borders) is evidence that he is doing everything he can to stay out of FARC's way.

He can't actively support the FARC--that would be an act of war. He helps them by permission, not commission.

[AP]

208. Again, proving a negative. I remember reading that. I've scrolled through

two pages of google results and didn't see anything. I'll keep looking. But I'm not sure you've made your case that Chavez has had an opportunity to do so (your NY'er article showed that the people don't even look to the army for help out there).

"Permission not commission"? You're a lawyer?

[geek tragedy]

212. This is a BB, not a court room.

And any discussion of international obligations and the merits of leaders is going to involve a mix of legality, morality, and policy concerns.

I think the Reagan administration's support for the Contras was wrong and despicable, because of a combination of immorality, illegality, and wrongheadedness.

[TahitiNut]

239. Is that like the US refusing to arrest IRA members?

Interesting moral relativism. :shrug: :eyes:

[Vladimir]

194. And indeed there is no obligation for him to do so

now if he was actively aiding and abetting the FARC, you may have a point. If you can prove that it is Venezuelan government policy to facilitate the FARC, you may have a point. The best you have come up with so far is that, allegedly, Chavez does not see it as a priority to go after FARC guerillas who are, allegedly, operating from Venezuela while there are very real terrorists operating from within Columbia against his own, democratcally elected, government. And that is no charge at all, even were it to be proven.

on edit: Does going after Colombian terrorists operating against Venezuela not count? Or have just proven that a terrorist is only a terrorist until the US calls him a freedom fighter?

[geek tragedy]

198. I see him as having an obligation to prevent FARC from using Venezuela as

an operating base. Just like the US had an obligation to attempt to prevent the IRA from operating in the US, and just like every nation has an obligation to attempt to prevent al-Qaeda from operating in their territory.

There is little doubt, imo, that the FARC are operating inside Venezuela:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020422fr_archive03

<snip>
In El Nula, a small border town a few hours' drive south of San Cristóbal, I met with a woman named Elizabeth (a pseudonym) who works as a liaison for the farc and who one assumes would be a target for Otto Ramírez's boys. She was an active-duty farc guerrilla from the age of twelve, but three years ago she was arrested by the Venezuelan Army at a roadblock outside of town. Until then, she had been the farc's local tax collector and had led a gang of young men who had, at times, roved deep inside Venezuela to carry out their duties. On the day she was captured, Elizabeth was on her own and was unarmed, but she had a balaclava in the car, which was all the evidence the Army needed. "I got caught because I was stupid," she said. After taking her into custody, the Army tortured her. Elizabeth's hip was permanently damaged, and she walks with a limp. A military tribunal sentenced her to twenty-eight years in prison for "military rebellion," but last year she was freed in an amnesty.

"The farc and Chávez have an understanding," Elizabeth said. Since Chávez came to power, she explained, the farc had agreed to cease its money-raising operations inside Venezuela proper, but it still exercised power and acted as an arbitrator in problems that cropped up along the porous border. "It's mostly problems over horses and cows and land," she said. Recently, for instance, a wealthy rancher had asked her to have the farc get rid of some land invaders for him. "He came to us rather than the Venezuelan Army," Elizabeth said proudly. "He's rich and educated and goes to Miami a lot, but he prefers us; he says he trusts us more." She had gone to the farc on his behalf, and three fighters came to chase off the land invaders. Several Venezuelans I spoke with in El Nula confirmed Elizabeth's story, and credited the guerrillas with making El Nula a much safer place to live than most other Venezuelan towns. Santos Moncada, who owns a cattle ranch outside town, said that in his opinion the guerrillas were fair, on the whole, in their dispensation of justice. "Because of the authority of the farc, people can leave their cars unlocked and walk around with jewelry on without worrying about it," he said. "You could never do that in Caracas."

Elizabeth doesn't like the term "narcoguerrillas," which is used to describe the farc. "I never saw any drugs in my life until I went to prison," she claimed. "The farc doesn't traffic in drugs; it just makes the traffickers pay a tax to raise funds for the boys, who don't receive salaries, to buy them boots, uniforms, and food." The money for the war effort had to come from somewhere. Elizabeth said she had only one regret, which was that her injury had ruined her chances of being a guerrilla comandante. "I believe I was born to be a leader," she said. I asked her if she worried about being arrested again. "There's nothing the Army or the police can do to me," she replied in a sassy way. "All I do is carry messages back and forth, which isn't a crime. And, besides, I have a Presidential pardon." I asked what she thought of President Chávez. "I like him," she said. "He wants equality between the social classes." She paused, and then, a big smile spreading on her face, she added, "He's a guerrilla, that's what he is."
<snip>

[AP]

203. And?

Your upset because FARC negotiates problems about horses and cows along a porous border?

If that's the trade-off Chavez made with FARC to get them to stop raising money in VZ, I'd say Chavez got the better part of the bargain.

By the way, did you read the article in the NY'er about that White African guy who had fought and killed black africans in the '60s? It was really sympathetic towards this guy, talking about how life was so hard for him. It was a really strange article. It really went out of its way to make colonizers sympathetic.

[geek tragedy]

206. So, he has an operating agreement with the FARC.

So long as they don't raise money in VZ, they can exercise de facto sovereignty on the VZ side of the border. Niiiiice.

So, I'm assuming we should toss out all of Seymour Hersh's work because the New Yorker ran an offensive piece a while back?

[AP]

211. Based on anonymous "Elizabeth's" assessment.

For such a serious allegation, I'd like to see a little more evidence.

Settling matters about cows and horses isn't exactly de facto sovereignty.

[geek tragedy]

214. There isn't going to be a lot of media coverage

from that part of the world. Journalists investigating FARC and its right and left wing cousins have a short life expectancy.

The article indicates that the only source of law and order in that region is FARC.

[AP]

217. Damn, that's laughable. There are 8 private media companies in VZ, all of

which have no problem making up lies about Chavez 24-7. If there were some truth out there, I'm sure it would have made it to the TV screens.

[geek tragedy]

224. I've tried to avoid using media reports from extremely biased sources

I'm sure they have all kinds of allegations, but I'm not going to rely on the VZ version of Faux News or the Moony Times.

[AP]

216. Too bad Hersh didn't write that article.

Jon Lee Anderson wrote it, and it opens with Anderson getting the opinion from a psychiatrist about Chavez's psychology, which happens to be an obsession of the opposition, since they have little to say about his politics.

I wonder if Hersh would have done that. I bet Hersh would have cut straight to the politicis.

[Vladimir]

207. All that you article purports to show

is that Chavez has negotiated a deal with the FARC by which they no longer raise money within Venezuela - which is hardly helping them. One could note similarities between this approach to terrorism to the British approach to the IRA - they key is to realise that you have to negotiate sometimes.

[geek tragedy]

232. Chavez's position to the FARC is like that of the US to the IRA, not

the Brits.

And the US was dead wrong in its refusal to do more to stop the IRA from operating in the US.

[Vladimir]

234. These standards are making me dizzy

Chavez could be waging an all out war against the FARC. Or he could have negotiated a truce, stopped them raising money, and got on with making the lives of his constituents better. I know which appreach makes sense to me...

[AP]

259. Furthermore, what's Columbia doing to stop Columbian paramilitaries settin

up camp in VZ on ranches neighboring Cisneros's?

Does C. owe a bigger duty to Columbian than Columbia seems willing to extend to VZ?

[Vladimir]

261. You forget that the Columbians are freedom fighters n/t

[aneerkoinos]

235. FARC

US calling FARC a terrorist organization does not make it such.

Neither does the EU mistake in July 2002, under enormous pressure from US and not unanimously, to include FARC in the list of terrorist organizations, make it such. If you insist calling FARC terrorist organization, then you must say the same about US and Colombian governements that are active in the terror campaign called "Plan Colombia". Then you must call also Kerry a terrorist, if he voted for the Plan Colombia, or at least a terrorist sympathizer, because he's not actively opposing Uribe and trying to put that narcoterrorist behind the bars.

There is civil war in Colombia that has been going on for decades and there are no military solutions to that conflict. Only way to end violence and terror is to end Plan Colombia and start talking peace again.

[geek tragedy]

236. Sigh.

You'll forgive me if I don't buy into pro-FARC spin.

[aneerkoinos]

251. TWAT

Nothing pro-FARC in my post. I don't think they are nice guys.

It's your and Kerry's stupid TWAT that I object to. Terrorism is a word, and only stupid people have problems with words. There are enough real problems, and your TWAT is nothing but an attempt to make people confused.

[Vladimir]

185. the burden of proof is usually on the accuser. Care to play? n/t

edited to remove inaccurate subject line

[AP]

128. Falling back on this lame argument shows a serious lack of facts.

Are you sure you dont' have anything else.

[geek tragedy]

133. Besides the fact that he doesn't object to terrorism or terrorists?

Geez, I must be crazy to think that being a terrorist sympathizer is a major flaw in a world leader.

[AP]

136. So, he's employed terrorism when?

Where is this predilection for terrorism which your evidence is supposed to suggest?

[geek tragedy]

139. Not that he engages in terrorism, but that he would turn a blind eye

to terrorists operating within Venezuela. And that he doesn't take the issue seriously in general.

[AP]

142. You, sir, are an idiot. Please go out and find yourself some facts.

[geek tragedy]

146. Name calling, the white flag of arguments.

He praised and expressed solidarity with a convicted and notorious terrorist. That is a fact. He refuses to take sides against the terrorists in FARC. That is a fact.

Like the rest of the Chavez cultists here, you choose to ignore anything that might cast a doubt on St. Hugo.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

150. Chavez Cultists vs Oligarch Schills

I like how black and white you make it!

[geek tragedy]

152. Well, I'm being called an idiot

for thinking that Chavez's praise and moral support for a convicted terrorist is a bad thing. If that isn't a sign of Kool Aid drinking, I don't know what is. :shrug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

155. Yes - Kool Aid

:eyes:

[AP]

157. I seem to remember a RW flavor of Kool-Aid from a year or so ago...

...what was that flavor? Oh yeah, didn't condi rice tell us that Chavez was harboring Al Qaida on an island in VZ?

[Vladimir]

159. ROTFLMAO!!! n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

160. The Kool Aid's flavor was remeniscent of the surf with a gentle breeze

Yeah - and The Monkey Chavez has voiced his moral support for Genghis Khan as well!

[AP]

156. You're being held accountable for your arguments. If you could come up

with something more than guilt by associaiton, or speculation that isn't supported by evidence form Chavez's record as the leader of VZ, I'd call you something else.

But you're saying that Chavez will harbor terrorists who threaten US interests because he sent CtJ a letter, doesnt' hate Castro, and isn't doing enough to arrest FARC guerrillas.

That is just plain dumb.

[geek tragedy]

161. I gave you facts:

1) He expressed solidarity and support and common cause with a murderous terrorist. That is per se proof of his mindset, his opinions, his values, and his priorities.

2) He refuses to take any action, real or symbolic, against FARC. None. Zip. Nada. Diddly.

His admiration of Castro (which goes way beyond a mere failure to dislike) is indicative of his authoritarian tendencies.

I'm saying there is a significant chance that he will allow terrorists to operate within Venezuela, either consciously or by simply not having any expending any meaningful efforts to prevent it, and that it is pretty damn clear he doesn't think terrorism is a problem, or even a character flaw.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

163. HAHAHAHAHAH - You are too much with this!

Slander and smearing of the highest order!

Pathetic!

[geek tragedy]

166. Defend his comments.

Was he right to express solidarity and address a terrorist rotting in French prison as a "distinguished compatriot?"

I'm still waiting for a Chavezista to offer a real defense of St. Hugo's admiration for CtJ.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

168. My question is "SO WHAT?" - I know what you're answer is but I don't thin

its a reason to suspect terrorists running amuck in Venezuela.

[geek tragedy]

171. Sympathizing and supporting a terrorist isn't an indication

that he might not take terrorism seriously? Oh lordy.

[AP]

180. Uh, how about his ACTIONS as a political leader as an indication of his

politics.

They're building hospitals, teaching people to read, and selling fords and chryslers in VZ.

And the only terrorism I see is from the political opposition.

If you're so anxious about terrorism, you should really be condemning the opposition.

[geek tragedy]

189. I've condemned his opposition--their despicability isn't a controversy.

How about his lack of action against terrorist insurgencies that are plaguing his neighbors?

His lack of action against terrorism is fully consistent with his nauseating ass-kissing of Carlos the Jackal.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

210. yawn

:eyes:

[AP]

177. I'm still waiting for you to support your argument that Chavez's VZ is

a breeding ground for oppression, violence and terrorism with something other than guild by association.

[geek tragedy]

181. It's not guilt by association.

It's two facts:

1) His own words, which establish his sympathy for terrorists who share his ideology; and

2) His complete lack of action against FARC.

[AP]

196. And that proves what, exactly? Can you find an act of COMMISSION or any

concrete evidence of what you think your numbers one and two will lead to?

Do you want to convict Chavez of a thought crime?

I presume one and two are so important to you because you think they will lead to something.

What is that thing?

And after all these years leading VZ, has Chavez done anything even remotely like that thing?

[geek tragedy]

202. Sins can be of omission as well of commission.

Countries that refuse to punish money laundering indirectly aid terrorism and narcotics trafficking without actively supporting such activities.

[AP]

205. Then lets let god judge Chavez on this matter. But if you want to talk

law and politics, I'm going to go by legal standards. Until you can support your argument with facts, this jury member is not going conclude that you've made your case.

[geek tragedy]

209. That's your right.

And it's my right to see a sympathy for terrorists and a willingness to accomodate terrorists as problematic.

I would hope he would be smart enough to take terrorism seriously, despite that idiotic letter. But I'd need to be convinced.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

213. You'll never be convinced - you don't want to be convinced

hence your tenacity in clinging to some comments he made and an inactivity in fighting a dubious entity.

You will cling to this and hold out a stance that cannot be swayed.

If Chavez came out and denounced the Jackal and the FARC I'm sure you'd move on to something else to despise him for.

Arguing with you is a waste of time

[geek tragedy]

215. Not true.

I hold a higher opinion of Chavez than I once did--mostly because of his behavior regarding the referendum.

However, I still find there to be reason for skepticism. I wouldn't lump him in with Saddam or the Dear Leader or even Castro or Bush. But I do have my concerns about him, and only time and action will overcome those.

[AP]

219. You're allowed your suspicions. But if you want to make arguments to

support them, I think you should be obligated to come up with a little more than the lame Kool-Aid arguments you're putting forward.

[geek tragedy]

222. There's nothing Kool aid about his support of CtJ

and his pointed refusal to hinder FARC.

That said, I'm done debating St. Hugo with his devotees.

[AP]

226. "support"..."pointed refusal"...sounds like Kool Aid to me.

[geek tragedy]

229. Did you find his letter to CtJ offensive and morally questionable?

Yes or no.

[AP]

241. I don't find your arguments about it compelling in the least.

I'm open to hearing all the evidence about it.

And again: where are you going witht this? What are you afraid that Chavez will do with all this that he hasn't done yet?

[geek tragedy]

243. It's indicative of a mindset

and, as I said, could indicate that he has a permissive attitude towards terrorism. There's no way of knowing what his stance/policy will be or even is on the subject--we can't know what he decides to allow to happen under his nose.

Now, do you find this text offensive, given the recipient? Yes or no.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1111/is_1793_299/ai_55881912
<snip>
Citizen Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, Distinguished Compatriot,

Swimming in the depths of your letter of solidarity I could hear the pulse of our shared insight that everything has its due time: time to pile up stones or hurl them, to ignite revolution or to ignore it; to pursue dialectically a unity between our warring classes or to stir the conflict between them--a time when you can fight outright for principles and a time when you must choose the proper fight, lying in wait with a keen sense for the moment of truth, in the same way that Ariadne, invested with these same principles, lays the thread that leads her out of the labyrinth.

Our liberator Simon Bolivar, whose theories and example are fundamental to our doctrine of revolution, whispered briefly this question before he passed away: "How will I find the way out of this labyrinth?" We agree with Bolivar that Time delivers miracles only to those who maintain a righteous spirit, to those who understand the true meaning of things. There is no measure of distance or time that can undermine these thoughts of our Caracan hero.

I feel that my spirit's own strength will always rise to the magnitude of the dangers that threaten it. My doctor has told me that my spirit must nourish itself on danger to preserve my sanity, in the manner that God intended, with this stormy revolution to guide me in my great destiny.

With profound faith in our cause and our mission, now and forever!
<snip>

[AP]

256. In the letter Chavez tells Sanchez why Chavez isn't throwing stones

which is also reflected in the way Chavez governs.

What do you think he's saying in that letter that contradicts the way he has governed?

[AP]

221. you're right. Chavez does not take terrorism seriously. The snipers...

...in the oppostion and the coup leaders got away with their crimes, I believe. (Actually, I think there might have been a conviction or two, but I don't think they got any of the major players).

Anyway, Chavez is way to willing to forgive and to let the wheels of justice turn.

[eridani]

266. The country most responsible for failing to punish money laundering

is the US of A.

[AP]

151. Facts: the basis of good arguments. Guilt by assocation: lame.

I am not ignoring anything. I'm BEGGING you to give us something here. I'm begging you to support your argument with facts. You have nothing.

[Classical_Liberal]

187. He didn't praise any terrorist actions,. Just wrote one in Jail

You are a lightweight.

[geek tragedy]

237. The letter was one of support.

Lightweight. That's hilarious coming from someone who claimed that Harper's produced a fake interpretation to smear Chavez.

Grape or cherry?

[Classical_Liberal]

253. He expressed to Carlos his mutual support for the poor. Big Deal.

.

A translation is a translation. Since it was in Spainish those specific words couldn't have been used.

[TankLV]

274. And you should know about name calling, from personal experience

I calling others names.

In this thread, for instance.

In private posts to me, for another.

Nice.

[aneerkoinos]

238. If so,

Why do you support Kerry then, that notorious terrorist sympathizer (US & allies terrorism in Colombia, Israel, Iraq etc.)?

Get over it, jeebus, TWAT is a fraud and shouting terrorist, terrorist every place and all the time leads nowhere. There are real problems there, you know.

[geek tragedy]

240. Do you have any other purpose here besides to bash Kerry?

Just curious if your prime purpose is to undermine him, or if you have a broader agenda?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

254. Are you clueless?- the point is you are running around like chicken little

ignoring the good that Hugo does for some minor crap - go ahead - I think I know what your response will be

[aneerkoinos]

255. Yep

I'm showing what a hypocrite you are with your TWAT.

[lordwhorfin]

257. That's not really the point

You're the one introducing pretty tenuous connections between Chavez and 'terrorists.'

There's a big difference between having certain specific priorities and ACTUALLY providing a haven for terrorists to operate against other countries. Are you accusing Chavez of providing a haven for FARC or are you accusing him of not being pro-active enough? I think you're make a number of unwarrented extrapolatory arguments as cover for something else, but I'm not sure what.

[AP]

260. right on.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

263. A vested interested in Chavez's downfall methinks

Possibly he has ties to Venezuela's upper class (maybe family or a girlfriend)

[Vladimir]

267. Maybe he just loves how the wind blows by the shore... n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

268. ahhhh the beach

makes me think of times gone by!

[tom_paine]

102. The South Americans (most of 'em) have better democracies than Amerika

Which is sad, of course there's are "newer" and we are still monetarily richer.

Imperial Amerika is the Richest Thrd World Nation in Human History.

[cal04]

269. Why are they so sure it was fraud? Do they know something

the rest of us don't?)

Jesus Mendez Quijada, leader of one Venezuela’s main opposition parties, today continued to call the referendum a fraud and called for a manual recount of votes while spokespeople for Sumate, a civil association with ties to the opposition, said they had serious doubts that the numbers provided by computers used during the elections were accurate, have also called for a manual recount.

Jorge Rodriguez, President of the National Electoral Directorate, called the opposition coalition’s accusations of fraud “criminal,” noting that the opposition had played a part in all preparations for the referendum and during the process and for them to call fraud is to condemn themselves as “accomplices,” given their full participation in the electoral process.
U.S. State Department spokesperson, Tom Casey said yesterday there is no evidence of fraud in the presidential referendum in Venezuela and today the State Department accepted referendum results and called on the Venezuelan people to seek reconciliation.

“We join the Group of Friends of Venezuela to recognize the preliminary results of the referendum which show that President Chavez received the support of the majority of voters,” Adam Ereli said, a spokesperson for the State Department.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1344

[bemildred]

271. Why does a wino continue to insist he can quit anytime he wants?

That is why they continue to insist there was massive fraud.
If there was not massive fraud then they stand revealed before
the world as liars and fools.