A Bun, a Soda and Thou… (Interesting Kerry/Edwards Campaign Stop)

[kskiska]

(snip)

Edwards happily approached a table of Marines, who didn't look like they wanted to be distracted from their combos. Kerry, who always gravitates toward men and women in uniform, came over and asked the men, "Where are you guys serving?"

Their answers were clipped. Later, the Marines -- none of whom would give his name -- said they were Bush supporters. "He imposed on us and I disagree with him coming over here shaking our hands," one said. "I'm 100 percent against" Kerry, he said. "We support our commander in chief 100 percent."

(snip)

Heinz Kerry was told that Newburgh is heavily Republican and a local television reporter asked her how she felt "in the heart of enemy territory."

Sipping her drink, she responded, "It's not enemies. It's Americans. We're all Americans."

She called the next few months of the campaign "the last sprint" after many months on the campaign trail, and then another reporter asked how she was handling all the scrutiny. "I'm 65 years old. What am I going to do about scrutiny? You have to live your life."

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28114-2004Jul30.html

I love Teresa's Jeanne Moreau quality.

[physioex]

1. Funny how these people can still support Shrub...

After they lost their brothers in Iraq. What a shame...

[napi21]

2. I'm not sure why, but my BIN and his whole family are the same.

He was in the Marines for 26 years as a pilot, his daughter married a marine, and one son joined at age 19. They all would respond the same way at those Marines at that table. The only thing I can attribute it to is in basic training, they are litterally broken down, and rebuilt as Marines. It's a brainwashing of sorts. You ALWAYS respect and obey your Commanding officer, and the Commander in Chief is the top Dog.

[DS1]

4. funny, I didn't have any respect for Bush Sr.

:shrug:

[Longhorn]

31. My son just finished Marine boot camp in January

and he doesn't support Bush* at all. You're right that they are taught to respect the OFFICE of the Commander in Chief but not necessarily the occupant. My son said there was no mention of politics in basic training and even though he is an atheist and a liberal, he still feels free to speak his mind when he's off-duty. Of course, he's just a PFC and has much left to experience.

[stanwyck]

My Marine son just left Iraq

and is back on the base in Okinawa. He'll be home on leave next month after being overseas for a year. He's a proud liberal and a proud Marine. He's been in since January 2003. I wish you and your son well. Our sons deserve better than the Bush administration.

[Longhorn]

66. So glad your son is safely on the way home!

My son is home on predeployment leave now after graduating from his MOS school and leaves for Iwakuni in a couple of weeks. He signed the pledge at Michael Moore's site to get five people to register to vote and he's been working on his friends, both Marine and civilian, to vote for Kerry.

Thanks for your kind words and I wish the best to you and your Marine as well! Did you know there's a Yahoo group for parents of Marines in Japan? If you're interested, PM me and I'll send you the link.

[marlakay]

53. Not all of them support Bush!!

My son-n-law is in the air force used to be for Bush and now is for Kerry and there are others. They were probably in heavy Bush territory and I think its great that they aren't afraid to try to talk to them. The marines probably got mad thinking it would look like they were for him if they talked to him. I say, Grow up!!!

[Citizen Daryl]

36. I support them, but sometimes it's hard ...

... when they insist on working against their own self-interest.

I chalk it up to ignorance. Sometimes honest ignorance, sometimes self-imposed ignorance. But ignorance is ignorance.

I have the same hard time understanding how struggling families can vote to intentionally harm themselves. It's truly depressing.

[Voltaire99]

50. Be careful of what you "support"

You call them "ignorant," and yet you "support" them. They bitterly oppose your politics, yet you feel support is the correct attitude. Do you think they support you and your right to dissent, to free speech? Test that theory, some time: tell some soldiers you think them ignorant. Then tell them you "support" them. Then run.

Let's be clear. These guys are going for Bush in a big way--"100 percent," as one boasts in the article--and their political worldview intends to roll over your values and way of life. They're the very muscle of imperialism. We can only pray they won't soon be used to enforce fascism here at home.

Many a New Democrat could do with less sentimentalizing of the military.

[homelandpunk]

60. AWESME POST!!!

<<You call them "ignorant," and yet you "support" them. They bitterly oppose your politics, yet you feel support is the correct attitude. Do you think they support you and your right to dissent, to free speech? Test that theory, some time: tell some soldiers you think them ignorant. Then tell them you "support" them. Then run.>>

Indeed. After running and escaping harm, there would not be one left on this board with illusions of "supporting the troops". There are troops who were never eager to go there and are not like these thugs. I support one troop at a time...one at a time as I am made aware of their story. I also loathe one troop one at a time...one at a time as I am made aware of THEIR fascist imperialistic ideals. Person by person...not this jingoistic "the troops" bullshit.

Your point should be a revelation to those who would think on what you have said.

[kentuck]

62. Thought-provoking...

Would they do the bidding of George W Bush to attack or imprison our own people? That's a very scary thought that should reinforce the need to have civilian control and a more strict oversight. The Repubs have lead and guided the Marines and our troops in a very dangerous direction.

[stanwyck]

64. I disagree with your blanket statements

you're characterizing thousands of soldiers by one group. My son is a liberal Marine. Yes, they exist. My brother-in-law is an admiral who voted for Clinton. Twice. Don't write off these voters. They're a diverse group. It's this narrow thinking which hurts our candidates. Voters don't feel they belong when you ostracize them with bigotry. Remember that many proud liberals served in the military, Kerry being one. So did Al Gore and JFK.

[autorank]

73. Voltaire99, interesting point but...

There is real slippage in military support for Bush. For example, the military vote in FL (retired and active combined) is 47%-45% Bush-Kerry. That's amazing! Who cares what a few hungry guys say if we're concerned with the big picture; which is, the active and retired military vote is in play.

[Voltaire99]

49. LOL! This is what Kerry gets for pandering to the military

Ahem: it's no mystery. These people include many violent brainwashed killers, they consume troughs of right wing propaganda, they're xenophobic and racist, they reject nuance like anorexics reject digestion, and, surprise, surprise, they don't like Democrats.

Kerry is pursuing a foolish, self-destructive strategy with his GI Joe routine. The right wingers will never go for him. Meanwhile, he's alienating those of us in the anti-war movement who are tiring of watching him play soldier while Iraq bleeds.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressivebydesign]

3. Rude assholes.. I don't care what they were wearing...

We see the true heart of Bush supporters. They support the guy that is taking benefits away from them and their families? Then I guess they get what they vote for, don't they? NIce that WP had to highlight that... when there are much more important things to discuss. Will the WP be interviewing anyone against Bush when he goes into public and.. oh wait, he's AFRAID to go out amongst the people. Never mind.

[LibDemAlways]

5. An unscripted encounter between

the chimp and a DUer would make "the hostile Marines meet Kerry" look like a love fest. That said, those guys were being rude. And they must be very uninformed or living under a rock if they are unaware of Kerry's military heroics. For his Vietnam service alone, they should have shown the man some respect.

[progressivebydesign]

34. You're right.. they should have shown the respect they show anyone else..

If another military "brother" had come up to chat, they would have HOPEFULLY been polite. But, I also think.. as with the people storming out of Linda Rondstat's show in California, that these guys KNEW the media wast here, and had to be the big republican heroes. If that is how they'd treat other people, when the cameras are not rolling, then they're just rude idiots.

Funny, though... if Bush walked up to me as I was dining, I'd actually be quite polite. And, I'd even go as far as to say that I'd not bash him that way to a reporter after he left. Knowing myself, I'd say something like: 'he was quite friendly, but I don't agree with his policies and what he's done. I'm still behind Kerry 100%'. That's the HUMAN way to do it.

[bitchkitty]

41. Sigh...

You're a better person than me. If chimpie walked up to me as I was dining, I would projectile vomit into his face. Or if I could hold it, I'd speak to him using polysyllabic words to confuse his ugly ass.

[Lizzie Borden]

55. n/t

:kick:

[2Design]

6. We support our commander in chief 100 percent."

so when Kerry is their commander and chief they will support him.

[SammyWinstonJack]

48. They didn't respect Clinton as CinC

Heard many in the military say that they only had contempt for Clinton.

[dArKeR]

7. How can anyone support a coward and not a man who was wounded 3 times

An aWol coward drunk for 25 years? An aWol coward who never even flew solo but tells everyone he did? An aWol coward who couldn't pass a physical because he was a alcoholic/drug addict. A student who cheated to get D+, C-'s. A commander in thief who sent them out without body armor... Are marines that unaware?

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Because he has given them pay raises

The active duty military has been given a pay raise every year since W took office. Last year he gave them 8%.

Plus most of the career military think war is great. They don't care where they are being sent or who they are killing. They are just doing their job and this is what they have trained for most of their lives. War is good for their careers, and combine that with the pay increases, and W looks great from their POV.

At least, this is what one young marine, that I know, told me a couple of weeks ago.

[maxrandb]

52. Excuse me

I'm in the military, and there was no 8% pay raise last year. Where are you getting your facts? Some people forget, that the largest pay increase for the military in our history came under Jimmy Carter.

Trust me, I have just as many active duty friends that have had it up to "here" with *. Problem is, since he is the CIC we just have to quietly show our support for Kerry at the ballot box.

[DoYouEverWonder]

54. This is what an active duty Marine

told me a couple of weeks ago. The young man that use to work for me and his mother still does. We got into a conversation about George Bush and he is very, very pro Bush. I couldn't understand how the heck he could be that way, considering the lies and Iraq and all that. He told me none of that really matter to him. Bu$h was great and that he's gotten a raise every year since he took office. Last year was a whopping 8%.

Now, I did not ask him if these were across the board raises or was he just one of the lucky ones? But I have no reason not to believe this fellow, he has always been a very honest person otherwise.

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. Look's like my friend was right

W's been handing out raises left and right to the enlisted folks ever since he took office.



Senate Ok's Military Pay Raise
Associated Press
June 24, 2004


But, generally, the Senate authorization bill mirrors the House version, for instance also including an across-the-board 3.5 percent pay raise for military personnel and higher danger pay.


http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_pay_062404,00.html

-----------------

Bush Slashes Federal Pay Hikes

WASHINGTON, Aug. 28, 2003

Military personnel aren't affected. President Bush has proposed a 4.1 percent raise for them starting in January.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/28/politics/main570505.shtml


-----------------

December 12, 2002

Bush approves military pay raise
4.1 percent pay increase for military in '03

Under the two bills, servicemembers will receive at least a 4.1 percent pay raise beginning Jan. 1. Many mid-level NCOs and officers will receive a pay jump of between 5.5 percent to 6.5 percent. The bills call for an increase in the basic allowance for housing to cut out-of-pocket expenses to 7.5 percent. The bill puts elimination of this financial inequity to servicemembers on course for fiscal 2005.


http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/standard/7_25/national_news/20630-1.html


-----------------


Biggest Basic Pay Raise in 20 Years

January 4, 2002


Thanks to the fiscal 2002 authorization law, targeted basic pay increases kicked in January 1, ranging from 5 percent to a maximum of 15 percent. Biggest boosts went to senior enlisted members, warrant officers and mid grade officers. Drill pay also is tied to the active duty pay raises.

http://www.armedforcesnews.com/backissues/2002/010402.htm

------------------


Thursday February 15, 2001


President Bush to Seek Military Pay Boost

President Bush plans to propose to Congress this week a $1.4 Billion across-the-board pay raise for members of the military. The Washington Post reports that the 4.6 percent pay raise would begin reaching members of the military next January if it is passed by Congress. President Bush will also propose spending $1 billion for pay incentives, such as bonuses for highly skilled personnel. In addition, he will discuss improvements in military housing and in schools attended by military dependents as he travels around the country visiting military bases this week.


http://www.military.com/MilitaryReport/0,12914,MR021501,00.html

[MODemocrat]

37. I believe Bush is still an alcoholic/drug addict

He certainly acts like a crack head most of the time.

[mountainvue]

81. Bet this group has never

been deployed outside of this country-yet.

[Guaranteed]

8. Those motherfuckers are going to have another "Commander-in-Chief" come

January, and they better get used to it.

FUCK those guys.

[ArnoldLayne]

9. I can't wait

to see Kerry and Edwards in Wheeling WV Sunday July 31 at the Heritage Port by the the beautiful Ohio River.I'm going to take alot of pictures with my new Kodak Digital Camera.:bounce: :bounce:

[yorgatron]

10. that's not news,jarheads have always been

dumb as a bag of hammers...

[ArnoldLayne]

12. Whaat!!!

the hell are you talking about,i'm must be missing something. My Lexapro hasn't kicked in yet but my Xanax has but I'm still lost.

[Algorem]

22. + those jar heads are clogged with fat from eating at Wendy's

fathead hothead shitheads

[soothsayer]

25. Is that rivalry from another branch of the service, or just meanness? n/t

b

[Trajan]

44. I have two brothers who were 'jarheads' ....

And frankly: this kind of mindless condescension is unworthy of a decent liberal ....

Nothing more than a schoolyard taunt, boy .... baseless and fallacious .... MANY marines are quite intelligent, and would surely kick your arse in Jeopardy ....

Hopefully, the 'jarhead' DUers let you know what's what ....

[liberalcanuck]

61. I agree with you completely. Instead of calling people mean, childish

names, how about raising the proverbial bar of our discourse and post substantive comments.

[JohnLocke]

46. Ehem...

:wtf:

[JI7]

11. dumbasses, whether they support Kerry or not they should have taken the

chance to question him on whatever they had a problem with him about.

but in their case i'm guessing they are the typical right wing type where they don't really question things. for them they probably see bush as some great moral person of god and anything he does is right and anyone who disagrees hates america. so rather than take the opportunity to question a major presidential candidate about something even if they were never going to support him they just ignored him as much as they could. and their later answers revealed their ignorance also where they said they are 100 percent against kerry and 100 percent for bush. no specifics on why they are though because they don't really know.

[yorgatron]

13. first to go

last to know.kinda says it all,really...

[RummyTheDummy]

15. Bush feeds their addiction

To killing.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. They said they support their Commander in Chief 100%

I hope that means they will vote for Kerry's re-election in 2008.

[MODemocrat]

40. They've probably never met a Real Hero like John Kerry

So Bush is the only gauge they have, and that's pitiful. However, my parents taught me as a child to always speak back when spoken to, and that it's easier to just smile and say hello than it is to shun or avoid someone. :shrug:

[Radio-Active]

78. yes, notice they object to him "imposing" on them..

as if by coming over and talking to them, he is "forcing" them to be polite.

I've seen the picture of them in the Wendy's and these guys look scared shitless.

[RummyTheDummy]

14. Some of the "troops" have exhausted my patience

I want to get mad at them. I want to scream at them. But alas, I can't. Instead, I just feel so sorry for them. They have been lied to. They have been used. But they still don't get it and they probably never will.

Are they too stupid to process complex issues or are they brainwashed? Maybe a little bit of both. Sad, really.

I will say this, they better start making themeselves comfortable calling Kerry their commander in cheif. If not, they need to think about a career change.

[Kinkistyle]

17. Wonder who those dumbasses would rather command their unit on the field.

I can just see it now - the bombs and bullets start falling. what do they think big bad Dumbya is going to do? My guess is start shitting his fatigues.

[PROUDNWLIBERAL]

18. stupid people

Remember most of this people that go in the Marines weren't the brightest light bulb in high school. They would make good Nazis. Remember the snipers in Iraq are mostly Marines and they like killing children and killing people so they can't get into hospitals for medical care. I don't have a bit of sympathy for them---hope they're headed somewhere the rest of humanity doesn't want to go to---and they never come back. These are really sick individuals---my brother-in-law is an ex-Marine and is he ever Cheyned-up!

[liberalcanuck]

65. Let me first say that I absolutely love DU - but comments like these

are unbelievable!

Remember most of this people that go in the Marines weren't the brightest light bulb in high school. They would make good Nazis.

Although minority enlistment in the Marines is lower than in other arms of service, the military in general is well known for having a disproportionate amount of minority enlistment. For many minorities, the military is seen as a viable option to a better life. These minorities are exactly the kind of people Nazis wouldn't want.

ethnicity of enlisted members

[saracat]

19. I am going to be politically incorrect and express my contempt for those

particular Marines. I am not contemptuous of their being Marines but of their being deliberately stupid. There is too much information out there to be uninformed ,so they must be deliberately stupid. And as for their rudeness, I thought they were supposed to have manners and respect not only their elders but veterans.They are spoiled rednecks and I am ashamed they represent America. They are certainly not"America's finest".

[captain_change]

20. I know I will get flamed

As a former paratrooper, I never had to take a back seat to the Marine myth. I found that they were highly focused, to the point of being robotic. I wonder if this "lock-step" mentality is useful on today's battlefield where out of the box thinking wins the day.

I haven't done a formal analysis, but it appears that the Marines are taken proportionally higher casualties in Iraq (interesting too when you realize that they are almost totally being supported by the army logistics). I witnessed first hand in Grenada how an over zealous Marine can get people killed, where IMHOP a little prudence and thought would have accomplished the mission without the loss of life.

I have advocated during my military service that the Marines should be disbanded. I know that their publicity machine will never let that happen, the public believes that they are some sort of super fighting machine.

As paratroopers, we believed that the Marines wanted to Die for their Country, to quote Gen Patton, We believed it was more important to make the other poor bastard die for his

[Algorem]

21. they maybe could've found some interesting people to talk to behind the

counter.maybe an ex-middle-classer or two or three

[demgrrrll]

23. No one should expect that everyone that they approach is going to like

them or agree with their views. I like everyone and everyone likes me is the twilight zone, no reality there at all. When you campaign you
put yourself out there good bad or indifferent. At least Kerry is trying to reach people who may or may not agree with him rather than living in a bubble like Bush, sheltered from any potential criticism.
Bush has always lived a cowardly life and not approaching people who disagree with you is cowardly.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

59. Agree with this. You'll never catch shrubya shaking a hand or kissing

a baby that wasn't prescreened or even planted there for him to do that. Kerry, and folks like Clinton just have more guts.

[JI7]

24. How sweet is Teresa ?

i always knew she was from what i learned so far. but with the article on how she will be a mom to many and now this one where she says they were not enemies despite their rudeness at her husband you just got to love her.

[GoldenOldie]

26. Quit attacking all Marines because of a few rude ones

This town just buried a young Marine last Saturday that had been killed in Iraq July 7th. This 22 year old young man was not stupid nor the dimest bulb in school. He was very smart and he had always wanted to become a Marine since his childhood. He never would have conducted himself in this manner no matter what his political pursuasion nor who approached him. The military can and should be a noble profession for many of our young men and woman and even though they endure extreme sacrifices, they are called to serve to protect and defend us all. Can any of us determine who is worthy and who is not.

It's fair to attack these young Marines for their performance, they wear the uniform of the US and thus whatever their actions they represent the US throughout the world. They apparently have never learned how to be tactful either through their parents nor their basic training.

Please consider those military members and their families who read or hear what you post. They have enough to worry about without listening or reading attacks against them or their loved ones.

[reprobate]

29. I share your respect for those who serve. 4 yrs air farce myself.

But let me ask this. In which war since after WWII have they protected and defended us all? Viet Nam? Granada?

From my advanced age all I can see in retrospect is many thousands of young americans who died or were maimed thru the use of lies by a few oligarchs who make fortunes supplying arms to our government, and the rest of the world. No matter who we attack, they make a profit because both sides bought their weapons from them.

In a perfect world in which no arms supplier could contribute to any political election fund, is there any doubt that this would be a far more peaceful world?

[Cocoa]

33. I like her more and more every day

Everyone's always complaining about "scripting", well that's not a problem with Teresa.

"I thought he did very well," she said, "and I think President Clinton set him up when he said, what was it -- 'Take me.' Oh, yes, 'Send me.' " She went on to praise convention keynote speaker Barack Obama, the Illinois state senator who is running for the U.S. Senate and whose speech electrified the delegates.

"Barack Obama will be president one day," she said. "I know it in my gut."

Heinz Kerry was told that Newburgh is heavily Republican and a local television reporter asked her how she felt "in the heart of enemy territory."

Sipping her drink, she responded, "It's not enemies. It's Americans. We're all Americans."

[theHandpuppet]

28. Yeah, and just I'll bet...

... these same Marines supported Bill Clinton 100%, too.

Y'know, it's funny how often I hear Repukes repeating that mantra about "supporting our President" when many of these same folks were obsessively trashing Clinton for eight years. I don't suppose the hypocrisy even registers on their radar.

[MODemocrat]

42. I'll never forget the quote from republican Trent Lott

"We can support our troops, and not support the President." That
Cheneyed-up hypocrite. Yet if a Democrat says that about the pinhead some people call president, the right-wingers would be all over the airwaves calling us crazy and every name they could think of. These young greenhorns feel they have to give their full loyalty bo Bushit.
They know which side their bread is butter on.
:puke: :argh:

[chemteacher]

45. True!

I was one of the Marines few good men....I was a Navy corpsman (old joke...sorry). Part of why I left the service was the hypocrisy I observed when President Clinton was elected in 1992. Many Marines bitched about his "draft dodging" and all kinds of BS. I told them I would rather live in a country where the civilians run the military rather than the military running the civilians. This was at a time when there were several South American countries run by military juntas.

I knew all kinds of Marines from thoughtful to "jarhead," but what they all had in common was a VERY focused approach to their "mission." Interesting for me to be the liberal, long-haired (relatively speaking) sailor in their midst.

[kskiska]

57. A few weeks ago the Freeps were asking each other

whether they'd sign up for Iraq if there were no restrictions. Most said they had bad backs or bum legs, but several said yes, but only if George Bush were C.I.C. So much for their love of country.

[DemBones DemBones]

70. Funny how many Republicans have bad backs or bum legs, isn't it?

That was Saxby SHAMELESS's excuse for not serving. Then he had the gall to call Max Cleland "unpatriotic."

[alarimer]

30. Personally

I would be hard-pressed to be polite to Bush or any Republican politician myself since I loathe them so much.

[RhodaGrits]

32. From the local (to Newburgh and Wendy's) paper - a much better slant:

"We Won't Let You Down"

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2004/07/31/campaign.htm

This what the local newspaper reported about their visit to the "heart of enemy country". Not exactly the same slant.

[progressivebydesign]

35. that's a wonderful story... I love it!! Makes up for the jerks! N/T

[RhodaGrits]

39. The photo gallery at the bottom is particularly good for a smile. n/t

[Spiffarino]

38. Sweet!

Thanks for the story. I hope it gets some national attention.

As if.

[truthbetold]

67. Beautiful piece.

Makes me want to cry. Good tears. I've been wary about Kerry, but the more I hear about his interaction with people, the more faith I'm getting. I think I will be able to vote with pride this next election.

[fob]

82. Damn I maade it through now it wants me to register, did you see

the part about Vanessa and Alexandra Kerry "both wearing flip-flops"? WTF was that? Otherwise it was a pretty good story.

[ItsMyParty]

43. John should have put his arms around them and said

"fellas, you are such big burly heroes that I promise when I become CIC to deploy you to Iraq and put you on the front lines so you can eat sand (like real men) instead of that wussy sandwich. And I promise to force GWB to serve out his commitment to the serice which he fled decades ago and make him your leader on that some front line. Now what size bodybag to you prefer?".

[GaryL]

51. I doubt he would do that.

I suspect he wouldn't wish that on his worst enemy, unlike the nasty tactics employed by the current administration.

[tlcandie]

47. Interesting that military recruiters don't offer the same curtesy that

these Marines felt they deserved! Talk about rude, impolite, disrespectful!

Maybe these Marines should remember exactly who pays their salary and be respectful of THE PEOPLE period instead of JUST the chimpcic!

[mbee]

68. Friends whose son signed up for the Guard a couple of years ago were

taking him back to his base after a weekend off. The person who let thire son onto the base told his parents to GET OUT! I have respected the military all through my life because my father is retired military and fought in WWII, my grandfather WWI. I think some of the people running things under this regime are just creepy. My friends felt so bad that they didn't even go back for their son's graduation from training. Very sad!

[Hailtothechimp]

58. Great quote from Teresa.

She's exactly what we need.

[kentuck]

63. Ask the 1st Cav how many times they pulled the Marines nuts out of fire

in 'Nam... The Marines could always find trouble - if not, they could always create it. But, just from my experiences and stories from friends who were also in Viet Nam, the Marines were "assisted" more than once by the 1st Cavalry.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[JSJ]

72. you must always support the troops

"He imposed on us and I disagree with him coming over here shaking our hands," one said. "I'm 100 percent against" Kerry, he said. "We support our commander in chief 100 percent."

Now, who you gonna support?

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[PATRICK]

75. How fast we get nowhere

depends on who gets frosted how over red flag statements or situations. The big picture has not changed. The GOP and by the mystery of misinformation and cognitive dissonance(opposed to the absolute horror and despair of recognizing what the Bush coup is and is doing) has led to turnaround in the military but not a full rank about face lockstep parade for Kerry!

Considering their youth, their background, their motivations for serving in the military(even draftees would not necessarily be brimming with astutely reflective and informed patriotism) and especially considering their closed mental formation(even were it not skewed toward the Right Wing Great White Father) we can be well satisfied that disaffection has begun. No one ever said the majority of the military is demoralized, Bush hating victims ready to quit the military. Only that the numbers are significant and indicative.

Moreover those numbers are especially indicative that under Bush- and Bush alone- the draft must become a necessity. They are risking all sorts of offensive gimmicks now to avoid even breathing this inevitability during the election year. And what can Kerry do, since his goals would lead away effectively from this necessity, thereby blunting the issue? As far as the stupid and shortsighted national forums are concerned the inevitability of a military shortfall with Bush adventurism(another inevitability, the lies about "peace" aren't even crudely enthusiastic).

This is another issue where democrats have to be grimly aware that the dam has NOT broken. On every front you have the same problem. Frustration and lashing out against the hardcore Bush supporters or the befogged won't do anything except work for Bush and harder divisions.

Supporting the troops is becoming as meaningless as "patriotism" as Democracy or Republic or Christianity in the mouths of the Right. American troops, whatever else a soldier is, has as his first duty to support his or her country with their lives, not glory killing for good pay. Or just good pay. Taking the first for granted, the nation, in owning up to its responsibilities in choosing leaders and policies, owes them a lot for being the front line of American in harm's way.

The people who do not vote, never intend to sacrifice or support their
troops, treating them like mercenaries however they mouth public sentiments and wave flags, abandon them in hard times or defeat as if they were some local sports team, or instead vote for unfit scoundrels
whose abuse of governments must affect the military are corrupting both the country and the military.

Peaceniks and soldiers naturally have more in common when it comes to goals, but the stark difference for the armchair patriot makes the former a great scapegoat to make their abrogation of civic responsibility disappear. Soldiers hating better leaders, peaceniks and letting themselves be turned into a typical army of conquest and rapine, a Praetorian Guard of a fake militarist state(an illusion since the top does not value military values any more than religious ones- convenient manipulative sentimentalism) has been a long tendency in this country. Even totally cynical veterans enraged by the waste of WWI or wars like Vietnam have been deflected from having any beneficial effect on the abuses that led them to slaughter and national dishonor.

The story here is that many of the carrier that Bush hijacked for his outrageous photo op was more opposed by the sailors because it arrogantly delayed their return home. Sports fans can boo anyone who interrupts their meager free time(unless the noise of race cars drowns them out). There is a natural non-political response of begrudging any pol horning in with cameras and hordes of media hounds that is in part admirably American. My own dad squashed a sneaky photo-op with LBJ so as not to imply his union supported him over JFK.

When you post here it is nice not to be one of the people walking under a cloud of skunk wash and calling it light and the odor of paradise. It then is necessary to show a little restraint of this freedom among friends and fellow Democrats buy using sensitivity and good judgment. Hey, I heard inter service gripes about the marines too. That is totally irrelevant. Turning a discussion into a mud bath
when the god almighty WP decides to highlight a tiny negative response
is letting them sucker you yet again into a brawl.

I had an uncle who used to steal drinks at the bar after getting the other denizens at fisticuffs with such simple tactics. He'd have a field day at DU. All you need to say is "Nader", bring up a muddling red meat issue co-opted by the Right so that no one is sure what they are talking about.

A few marines during their off time! The greater issue I have been studying is the media coverage of the convention and campaign. This is one example of how the WP and NYT are the "fair and balanced" version of the Washington Times. The nation has not been given a good look at Kerry. The main issues have not been totally breached aginst Bush with all the people that have kept in the dark. There is work to do. Nothing has changed enough- yet- and certainly won't if we don't keep up the progression leading to that happy day.

[Name removed]

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[calimary]

80. Well, they're the few and CERTAINLY the proud - proud enough not

to want to give their names. Gee, I'm impressed. With their "bravery" and their "courtesy." Edwards may very well wind up being a heartbeat away from their NEW Commander-in-Chief.