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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 01:57 PM
Original message
Panel: No Cockpit Struggle on Flight 93
Panel: No Cockpit Struggle on Flight 93

By TED BRIDIS
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Passengers aboard United Airlines Flight 93 fought back against the hijackers but never actually made it into the cockpit, the Sept. 11 commission concluded.

The assertion, included in the panel's dramatic summary of the harrowing flight, contradicts the firmly held belief by some victims' families that passengers breached the cockpit and fought with hijackers inside during their final moments.

In phone calls from the plane, four passengers said they and others planned to fight the hijackers after learning of the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York earlier that morning.

With the words "Let's roll," passengers rushed down the airliner's narrow aisle to try to overwhelm the hijackers.

Relying on the cockpit recorder and flight data, the commission said terrorist-pilot Ziad Jarrah violently rocked the jet's wings and told another hijacker to block the door. With the sounds of fighting outside the cockpit, Jarrah asked, "Is that it? Shall we finish it off?"

more......

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SEPT_11_FLIGHT_9...
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. do these idiots actually read the report?
nowhere does it say one way or the other that the passengers did or did not enter the cockpit. All they do is state that the hijackers remained at the controls. this has nothing to do with whether or not the passnegers were in the cockpit or not. This reporter is looking for a dramatic story but draws conclusions that the panel itself does not. schmuck.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. So our crack Air Force never shot down that plane?
sure....
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Read the Report n/m
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. the responsiveness of the Air Force
is discussed quite extensively in the report.

The 9/11 commission shows pretty well that the AF did not shoot down flight 93, and portrays our military response as totally and completely inept, flying in the wrong direction, missing orders, not turning on radar.

Now which version do you think the public would be more willing to accept? That the President responded to a threat to perhaps thousands on the ground by ordering the shooting down of a plane known to be doomed or that our military is incapable of protecting us in a time of crisis?

Regardless of what you may personally believe, the report's findings in this matter are much more damning of our response than the potential fallout over the deaths of the passengers. Why hide this if it is what happened? What is to be gained?

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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. they had plenty of time to do it
and Cheney gave the order.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. That's right.
There are many, many threads of evidence. Multiple independent investigating agencies. The military keeps many records. It would be extraordinarily difficult for the military to cover up a shoot down of that plane.

There is no (none) evidence of that.
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Mokito Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. Then that can only mean
that the hijackers of flight 93, for some crackpot reason, decided to crash the plane in the middle of an open field, where they would do the least harm to American population. Compassionate terrorism, go figure.
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Az_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. shoot down article
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. ???
Does anybody believe this wingnut stuff?
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Chilling to read that article... very sad.
One thing that did catch my eye is this: While it was reported by a passenger's wife that the words "let's roll!" was used as a rallying cry to overtake the hijackers, I found it more likely that she was referring to the comment heard on the tape "ROLL IT!", in reference to a utility cart they were ramming into the cockpit door, trying to gain entry. Sadly, the GOP latched onto the "let's roll!" catch-phrase, and it was sensationalized so much.. now I think it was probably not what was overheard after all. But, I guess it gives comfort to some families..
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wolfgirl Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. It doesn't
matter if they breached the cockpit door or not. The passengers were instrumental in bring that plane down - either through actual struggle in the cockpit or giving the hijackers no option but to ditch the plane.

The grief won't change in either case...and my sadness for each of those passengers & their families won't diminish either.

What we need to focus on is fixing the system (first up - Bush & the other traitors outta here)so we can stop or mitigate any future terrorist acts!

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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm reading it, it sounds like that jammed or turned the controls
which flipped the plane just seconds or just when the crew got through, and then the plane when into the ground at 580mph.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. The Downing Of United / One Engine found Elsewhere
ABC program, by Gen. Winfield: "It was about, you know,
10:03 that the fighters reported that Flight 93 had crashed."
The FBI seized Flight 93's CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder)
and claims the tape stopped at 10:03 a.m.

But NORAD's own timeline says the F-16s were still 11
minutes away from intercept when Flight 93 crashed.
And, "Several leading seismologists agree that Flight
93 crashed last Sept. 11 at 10:06:05 a.m., give or take a
couple of seconds," according to a Sept. 16, 2002,
Philadelphia Daily News article. Three minutes are
not accounted for. When the feds begin dissembling as they
did in the case of Flight 93, it is reasonable to infer
that something occurred during those three minutes they wish
to hide from the public.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...




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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Or maybe somebody made a slight mistake, or...
somebody's clock wasn't set exactly. Or.....

Give it up. This was a horrible tragedy. There's nothing gained by continued morbid speculation.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. Give it up- NEVER
I know these people. They will not stop until
they are stopped.

This is the Dem Party ( velvet glove v The Rep's mail fist)
way. They let these people get
slaps when they're hand is caught w/ the cookies.
See Gore 2000. He should still be in
florida
counting votes. His/the Dem's decision to fold (who
knows what they got in return) is what set up 911.

And it just emboldens these Fascists.
These 1/2 humans demand they're wealth and power

This isn't a War on Terror, it's a War on Dissent.

If I'm the last person standing-so be it.
".......even if it costs me my life."
- Mazen Dana,
murdered by U.S. soldiers
August, 17, 2003
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thecrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. With the words "Let's roll,"
*ahem* the 9-11ComissionReport clearly states that one of the passengers said "ROLL IT" not, let's roll..
Possibly they were referring to the refreshment cart that they ROLLED to smash the cockpit door??
This "LET's ROLL" thing was perpetrated by Bush in a speech he made with Mrs. LetsRoll in attendance.

The report said they never breached the cockpit door.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I believe the operator in Chicago reported that she heard
"let's roll" at the end of her conversation with Todd Beamer. At some point, he picked up the seat phone, got an operator in Chicago, talked to her for a few minutes, they prayed together, he told her that some of them were planning to rush the cockpit. He apparently put the phone down, but didn't hang up. She heard him say something like: "okay, let's roll". I think that is where that phrase came from.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. Why didn't the original pilots flip the plane
and bust the hijackers' moves?

And why are BOTH United Airways planes STILL registered by the FAA
just like every other US plane
that takes off and lands at your local airport?

And WHAT were those passengers planning to do
once they got the hijackers out of the cockpit?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Why are the planes still registered? Because United hasn't filed papers..
Again, we've covered this ground. Until United files paperwork, the FAA database won't remove the registration. That does not mean those planes are still flying.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I still recieve issues of the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC for my grandfather
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 08:16 PM by thebigidea
he died in the late 50s, but National Geographic hasn't figured it out... seeing as he's on their list, I can only deduce my long dead grandfather is still alive, stalking the streets... looking for gaps in his map collection.

I plan on a releasing a grainy webvideo where you can sort of make out a smudge that's actually my grandfather shaking hands with Paul McCartney at Abb(e)y Road.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Disinformation agent! He's really still alive (National Geographic proves
it). You're just trying to spread the "My Grandpa was Killed by Cavemen" theory.

Oh, and that WAS a single blurry frame of your grandfather shaking hands, but it was with Ringo Starr. Paul McCartney is THREE TIMES the size of the man in that picture...

:tinfoilhat:
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. I don't see how the Commission can conclude this...
...any better than the rest of us. Although I suppose if there are never any sounds that indicate pax in the cockpit, having heard the CVR they're in a better position to guess. :shrug:

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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Because they have the facts, and not pure speculation?
They have the CVR, the Flight data recorder, radar tapes, reports of phone conversations with several relatives. Put it all together and there should be a pretty good picture of what happened.

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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. but...but...what about the lisa beemer's hubby "let's roll" hero story....
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 05:17 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
duidn't she sit with laura at the state of the union address...didn't the beemer and glick dude storm the cockpit and save the White house?

i am sooooooo confused.......
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Fairy Tale. n/t
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. I feel so disillusioned
even worse than when I found out Jessica Lynch wasn't anally raped.

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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. Debris scattered over eight mile radius.
Do your own Google. Eight miles is a long damn way. Get in your car and drive eight miles..............long damn ways, ney?

The 911 commission report has all the credibility of the Warren commission report. We all now realize what a fine shot Oswald was don't we?

Wake the fuck up.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. The hijackers were flipping the plane violently, trying.....
to stop the passengers. Then the put the plane upside down and into a dive.

That could easily throw off pieces of the plane.

Eight miles ain't far at 580 mph.

Just exactly why does "the 911 Commission report has all the credibility of the Warren Report"?

Have you even read it?

Didn't think so.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. You tell 'em.
Just like all those pieces of aircraft that fly off under stress. Fortunately you're an aeronautical engineer, and have doubtless seen such a thing. :eyes:

Regardless, the debris splatter isn't particlarly troubling; the 8-mile debris field is overstated. Have you looked into the debris reports yourself?

Didn't think so. ;)

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Robb! You've come to the dungeon to visit us again!
I still bite my thumb at thee, but with newfound adulation...

:hi:

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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. Why Bother Responding to the Kool-Aid Man?
The only time he ever pops his head up form the Kool-Aid vat is to chastise anyone who doesn't fall lock-step inline with everything the Powers That Be and the government claim really happened on 9/11.

Remember, in Tom's World the Official Story is the ONLY viable explanation, although he can't seem to provide it with any sort of facts or verifiable information on his own.

Oh, I'm sure he would be happy to bitchslap you with you interesting bytes from the Warren COmmi....Um....I mean the 9/11 Commission's reprt all day and claimn this closes the Book on everything.

You know, that Great Novel that bush keeps drooling over that reads like a "Miss Marple Mystery", and concludes that all this happened because of a "Failure Of Imagination?"

Keep Getting Drunk off your Kool-Aid, Tom.

The rest of us who actually care about getting to the bottom of what REALLY happened will continue to discuss and keep this issue alive.

The greatest service and tribute we can EVER give those people who died on that day is to get at the real TRUTH of what happened that day.

And not you or anyone else will Shut Us Up.

EVER.

Deal With It.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. The Whitewash Commission lives up to its name
To repeat myself from another post:

    The obstacles created by the Bush administration, however, were not the only problem. Another reason to doubt the commission's report would answer many questions was that its leaders adopted a very limited understanding of its task: "The focus of the commission will be on the future," said Vice Chairman Hamilton. "We're not interested in trying to assess blame, we do not consider that part of the commission's responsibility." The commission, in other words, evidently approached its task taking for granted the truth of the incompetence theory, so that the question of official complicity would not even be explored. Hamilton's words seemed, in fact, to imply that the commission would not even assess blame in the sense of incompetence. In saying that the commission's focus "will be on the future," Hamilton was apparently indicating that it would limit itself strictly to the question of how to make sure a "breakdown" does not happen again.

    ---David Ray Griffin, The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11, (Northam, Ma., Olive Branch Press, 2004), pp 151, 152 (emphasis added).


It was a rigged commission from the outset. First, its very formation was stonewalled and resisted until public pressure, applied primarily by the Family Steering Committee, forced Bush's hand -- but Bush succeeded in narrowing the agenda of the investigation; then his minions granted it a paltry $3 million budget (compare to the $50 million spent on the Discovery disaster and $70+ million of the Whitewater witch hunt); then Bush held back key documents and testimony -- leading to this. "Intelligence failure." "Nobody's to blame." Move along, there's nothing to see here. And this will be spun Republican until our ears bleed!

Ever feel like you're being slowly, laughingly, screwed?
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evworldeditor Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. What does the FDR show?
I would really like to know what the Flight Data Record shows happened in the final minutes of the flight, apart from the rocking the wings violently, side-to-side.

If an air-to-air missle took out one of the engines, I would think the FRD would indicate this by showing a dramatic drop in engine temperature, hydraulic pressure, a sudden yaw, etc. Clearly the aircraft broke up in flight... the question is why? Was it caused by the hijackers exceeding the designed loads of the aircraft or by a remotely detonated bomb in the baggage compartment or by an exterior cause like an air-to-air missile from an F-16?



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mike1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I'd like to know too. And BTW, I am actually an aeronautical engineer and
a commercial pilot for some 37 years. Boeing 7x7 airplanes are certified in what's called "normal category" with fairly narrow limits on positive and negative G forces...it really doesn't take much effort to break off parts of empennage or engines if one isn't careful or competent. I don't really have much of an opinion one way or the other about the possibility of 93 being "shot down" but I know of MANY inflight breakups of aircraft caused by grossly exceeding the maneuvering speeds they're certified for. Big ones and little ones too.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. .. at 580 mph, 1000 ft altitude
think in-flight catastrophic breakup is possible? I can see parts jettisoning off at impact, but over 8 miles?
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found object Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. The old 707 was capable of performing barrel rolls
and that's with four engines attached to their wings.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Bob Hoover did barrel rolls in a Sabreliner ...
With a cup of coffee on the glare-shield. I can do barrel rolls all day in any airplane, without exceeding about 1.25 G's. I'm good. Karl is probably better. Hoover is the best.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. Ditto Mike1963
I've got 42 years of flying, 250 combat missions in 'Nam, 17,000+ hours, airline captain experience, and ALPA (Air Line Pilot Association) accident investigator training and experience.

Mishandling a Boeing aircraft at a very high speed would result in exactly what happened to UAL93. High speed? Probably close to, or in excess of Mach 1.0 in a power-on dive.

But what do Karl and I know?
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
33. So yet another WH fantasy didn't occur.
I suppose we never 'found' the blackboxes because we would probably hear the pilots wonder where their controls went after Dov Zakheim's ground control stole the control of the planes.
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donhakman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. This follows the initial reports that not one of the 8 flight recorders
survived the crashes. Now I find all claims dubious.
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evworldeditor Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Why Didn't the NTSB Conduct Any Investigations?
Edited on Sat Jul-24-04 07:51 PM by evworldeditor
When even a Piper Cub crashes (and there are a few "antiques" still flying) the NTSB conducts an official investigation, but to my knowledge, there has never been an official investigation into any of the four crashes. That fact alone leaves me wondering why?

Then there's the hole in the side of the Pentagon that is just too small for it to have been caused by a Boeing 757, as the computer illustration below indicates.


"
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I drove past the Pentagon every day to work, and the hole was VERY large.
Edited on Tue Jul-27-04 10:49 AM by spooky3
If you don't believe me, find the REAL (not computer similuated) photos of the damage.

Let's be careful with the tin hats.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Do you suppose it was because things aren't as the WH claims??
Dov Zakheim (PNAC, former comptroller/thief of the DOD) was CEO of a company that made computer systems that allowed the controls of up to five airliners to be taken over from the ground in the event of a hijacking. They could also do it to create their Pearl Harbor.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. If * spouts about the courage of the people who "drove the plane .."
"...into the ground" -- jump on him, because it means he hasn't read the report! (confusing the hijackers with the passengers)

He actually used that line several dozen times -- not recently, but I'm keeping an eye out for it.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
36. I had two friends on that flight
I believe each of them was capable of extraordinary action but I never bought into the Beamer "let's roll" stuff. I am still pissed that the only people remembered from that flight are the "heroes" mentioned in the press. I would venture a guess that ALL of them did something heroic.

That's my memory of Joe and Linda and I'm sticking with it.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. that part bothered the co-pilot's wife too
(I was in elementary school with her and even back then she had a very low tolerance for BS.)



"We can't imagine that passengers were able to get a cart out of its locked berth and push it down the single aisle and jam it into the cockpit with four strong, violent men behind the door," said Ms. Homer.

(snip)

"Whether or not my husband's plane was shot down," the widowed Mrs. Homer said, "the most angering part is reading about how the President handled this." Mr. Bush was notified 14 minutes after the first attack, at 9 a.m., when he arrived at an elementary school in Sarasota, Fla. He went into a private room and spoke by phone with his national security advisor, Condoleezza Rice, and glanced at a TV in the room. Mrs. Homer's soft voice curdles when she describes his reaction: "I can't get over what Bush said when he was called about the first plane hitting the tower: That's some bad pilot. Why did people on the street assume right away it was a terrorist hijacking, but our President didn't know? Why did it take so long to ground all civilian aircraft? In the time between when my husband's plane took off and when the second plane hit in New York <9:02 a.m.>, they could have turned back to airfield."

In fact, the pilots of Flight 93 are seldom mentioned in news reports -- only the 40 passengers. And Mrs. Homer says that hurts. "My husband fought for his country in the Persian Gulf War, and he would have seen his role that day as the same thing -- fighting for his country. -- It's my belief, based on what I've been told by people affiliated with the Air Force, that at least one of the pilots was very instrumental in the outcome of that flight. I do believe the hijackers may have taken it down. But stalling the impetus of the plane so it didnt make it to the Capitol or the White House -- that was one of the pilots."

(snip)

(She) later learned from a member of the Air Force who worked with her husband that "a couple of weeks before the incident, they were all sitting around and talking about the intelligence that was filtering through the military that something big was going to happen. For all of this to get ignored," she said as she swallowed a sob, "it's difficult to excuse that."


http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/M.A.Sweeney.html
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