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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:23 PM
Original message
AP: Clinton Adviser Probed in Terror Memos
President Clinton (news - web sites)'s national security adviser, Sandy Berger, is the focus of a criminal investigation after admitting he removed highly classified terrorism documents from a secure reading room during preparations for the Sept. 11 commission hearings, The Associated Press has learned.



Berger's home and office were searched earlier this year by FBI (news - web sites) agents armed with warrants. Some drafts of a sensitive after-action report on the Clinton administration's handling of al-Qaida terror threats during the December 1999 millennium celebration are still missing.

Berger and his lawyer said Monday night he knowingly removed handwritten notes he had taken from classified anti-terror documents he reviewed at the National Archives by sticking them in his jacket and pants. He also inadvertently took copies of actual classified documents in a leather portfolio, they said.

"I deeply regret the sloppiness involved, but I had no intention of withholding documents from the commission, and to the contrary, to my knowledge, every document requested by the commission from the Clinton administration was produced," Berger said in a statement to the AP.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040...
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g5jamz Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:29 PM
Original message
What the hell was he thinking? nt
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. Welcome to DU! Fasten your seatbelt and get prepared to face an incurable
addiction.









:hi:
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CityDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:00 PM
Original message
This looks bad
Berger and his lawyer said Monday night he knowingly removed handwritten notes he had taken from classified anti-terror documents he reviewed at the National Archives by sticking them in his jacket and pants. He also inadvertently took copies of actual classified documents in a leather portfolio, they said.

What the hell is he doing sticking classified documents in his pants? This will really be a blockbuster if they have this on video. Berger just made it a lot easier for the repubs to blame Clinton for the lack of attention to security prior to 9/11. Also, can Kerry keep Berger on as an advisor? I think not.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
30. He stuck the hand-written notes in his pants
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:07 PM by lancdem
not the classified documents. It sounds like those were notes he took as he was reading the materials.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
57. while the wording "sounds ominous", couldn't mean - his pant's pockets?
The wording seems to conjour up images of sticking paperwork into his undergarments (under his pants)... which sounds sneaky... have to wonder if the wording really meant "in his pants pockets" (which doesn't have the same connotations - esp if it is his own hand written notes - eg from his reviewing documents/in prep for the hearings - as you suggest.)
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
58. Yes. And that could be illegal... though "stuck them in his pants"
is probably a more enticing description than "put them in his pocket". I can just see him trying to stuff them down his trousers... though I guess that's possible.


The thing is... if you can't take notes out of the room... why would you be able to take notes at all?


BTW - He also admits to "inadvertantly" removing some of the actualy documets. Some of which are now "missing".
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cspiguy Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
124. those become classified documents
n/t
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
127. He took notes and put them in his pocket. This article is written in a way
to slime Burger as much as the author can. You'll *never* see an Associated Press article written like this about Republicans.
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
75. Sounds like a stupid mistake. What's the big deal?
:shrug:
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. You forget who we're dealing with here........
you can't give thoses f--kers anything to help them. Why was Berger so stupid? Did he think they wouldn't notice?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #75
84. he was the NSA head.....stupid mistake seems out of character
but then again, so does stealing classified docs. shit ...this can't be good.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #75
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #113
123. kinda' like losing and destroying military pay records, huh???
me-thinks a troll is lurking.....
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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
107. Would this be so great if what he was investigation is the
Bush Administrations inadequacies of taking over the Department of Homeland Security.

Ooops. That's right. George didn't even have that. He closed that Department, that is until 9/11 and then suddenly, George had this great idea for a Department of Homeland Security.

I really hope that the papers reveal a lot about Bush and Co. and this turns on those that are automatically taking the word of a person who "claims" this happened.

Of course, Rush Oxycontin Limbaugh, is blaming Clinton and, ALSO, Kerry made him do it too. He just cannot seem to make up his mind. Come on Rush, which is it . . . Clinton or Kerry?

He is having too, too much fun with this. I hope it comes back to haunt his fat, drug addicted, infidelity ass. Those in glass houses . . .
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
112. MAN! You can say that again! And Welcome to DU, by the way!
What the F--- was he thinking!??!???!!!?!??!?

Gee, THANKS, Berger. Thanks for the nice, shiny, new monkey-wrench. Watch how fast the investigations turn onto YOU and the Valerie Plame business gets COMPLETELY forgotten.

With friends like him, we don't need republi-CONS.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. This doesn't sound good...
What is this all about?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. This is about missing draft version of a report that the Archives has
copies of. If Ashcroft thought he could get a Grand Jury to indite - without making Bush look like a petty little prick that can lose Federal Docs that show he was AWOL, and then chase someone for pencil drafts that were tossed by Berger thinging he had made them (actually he had made those drafts - but they were orginal drafts and god forbid we are left with only copies - by the way Bush AWOL pay records seem to have lost all copies also!!!), he would have by now

The missing documents involve two or three draft versions of the report as it was evolving and being refined by the Clinton administration, according to officials and lawyers. The Archives is believed to have copies of some of the missing documents.









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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ashcroft has nothing better to do except stir up political trouble
WTF
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm sorry...
This stinks to the high heavens. What was he thinking?
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Berger said he accidentally threw away highly classified documents
It's bad.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. The doc that he threw away were his own pencil draft of the report!
But it was an original pencil draft and the Archives are left with only a photocopy.

HANG'EM HIGH!

I love our Justice Dept - and our media.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. I don't see where he says those were "pencil drafts"
"When I was informed by the Archives that there were documents missing, I immediately returned everything I had except for a few documents that I apparently had accidentally discarded," he said.

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. "pencil drafts" is a term used where I work for drafts more than one away
from final.

I am sure they were typed and most likely had Bergers Notes in pencil all over them - as he was the fellow who had ordered them written.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
59. Particularly damning.
It certainly LOOKS bad. The man isn't stupid. You don't get to that level (at least in a Democratic administration) if you are. It's not particularly credible that he "accidentaly" took and then inadvertanly "lost" classified documents.

If it's true that he was the source of the original documents that he has now lost... I don't know how he can avoid the impression that there is something in there that makes him (or the Clinton administration) look bad and he made them dissapear. My only doubt is that I can't believe the Bushites wouldn't have run with a prosecution if there was anything serious to this.


BTW - nice to bump in to you in a non-econ thread. :hi:

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pale reflection Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #59
114. The Bushites smell blood...
...which is why they are staying away from this. Why make it look partisan and run the risk of turning Berger into a martyr, when they can let some DOJ schmuck string him up without investing political capital?

I wish shrub would say something, but his handlers are sure to muzzle him on this one.
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axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. meaning folks
Like a movie, book, play, editorial whatever. People have rough drafts. Those are the ones that he put in his pants and shirt.

Imagine having to write your thesis all over again..He was just sloppy with his - notes.
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pale reflection Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
111. but that wasn't all
He took more than his notes, he took classified documents that he knew he should not have taken out of that room.

I can see the headlines now, "Berger Fried," and "Berger Cooked the Books."

Rushbots are going to have a feeding frenzy on this...
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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
109. Excuse me but I have worked in a records department, and
BY LAW, everything 2 years or older, are put on microfilm. So they want us to believe that they only keep the paper hard copy? They sure do not do this with medical records because they really pile up. What do you think about all the records in the National Archives? Don't you think these documents have been copied to microfilm? I do. So whatever the hell he took, they should already have it microfilmed.

Please, stop and think about it. Do you think there is a building with nothing but stacks of boxes? They have to put it on smaller documentation like "microfilm" or the storage building would be the size of Washington.

So wouldn't it have been easier to search for the microfilm, make a copy, and take that with him?

Just a thought.
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pale reflection Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
108. Sorry, but you are dead wrong!
Ashcroft may very well be the anti-Christ, but Berger ADMITS willfully taking these classified documents, according to the article at MSNBC.com. What's more, after action report drafts of the 12/1999 Millennium plot are still missing. That is bad, very bad.

This guy stole, and either lost or destroyed sensitive documents. He knew it was wrong; if it wasn't why would he stick them down his pants? This reeks of a cover-up of some sort to Joe Schmo on the street.

The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Kerry better drop him like a hot potato, and hope this doesn't come back to haunt us further down the road.

What a moron.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
125. why now? This has been under investigation since Oct. They haven't even
interviewed Berger about it (FBI) So why even mention it NOW if it's such a big crime. Why haven't they talked to Berger if it's so bad?

Those papers were copies of copies. My bet--no charges will ever be considerd or brought. This is just flatulence from the methane kings.

To convince people like yourself, no doubt.
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pale reflection Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. They have to talked to Berger
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. link? That is not being reported, in fact the opposite n/t
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 02:37 PM by librechik
"The Associated Press said that employees of the National Archives alerted the F.B.I. to the possibility that Mr. Berger had removed documents. Agents subsequently searched his home and office in early January.

Federal agents investigated the allegations that Mr. Berger mishandled classified materials, a senior government official said Monday evening. The official said that the inquiry had concluded and was now being reviewed by prosecutors at the Justice Department who will decide whether any laws were broken."

I see only searched his home and office along with direct statements from Gergen, for example, that he has never been interviewed. Also, the investigation was concluded in JANUARY--and no arrest.

show me the interview part.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/politics/20CND-BERG.h...
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pale reflection Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #132
135. I stand corrected. mea culpa
You are correct. He hasn't been interviewed, His house was just searched by the FBI and he is under criminal investigation.

I'll sleep much better now.
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arlib Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. Try bedding down
at Free Republic.
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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. whoa.
not good. just the perception of impropriety will equate to something very bad. i don't think this will effect the election numbers, however. but it will facilitate more clinton blaming for 9-11.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. He knowingly did this?
What reasonable justification could he have?

I'm withholding judgement until I have more information, but it doesn't seem kosher at all.
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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. He claims he took them to study in preparation for his testimony
so that he could more accurately provide details to the commission. Apparently he has returned most of them but discarded some of them believing that they were duplicate copies of originals. He calls it sloppy, I would call it incredibly stupid.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Thank you.
Yes, it is stupid and sloppy. At least it isn't malevolent or irrational, though.

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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
60. "Stupid and sloppy" because it LOOKS malevolent and irrational.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yuck, not good.
What in the world is the point of doing something like this?
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. Crap - What a stupid thing to do....
This one's gonna sting I have a feeling. Damn!
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Very stupid
and Sandy Berger's no dummy. :wtf:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. Just remember the first reports aren't always the truth of it when it
comes to Democrats.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
61. True,
but some of the most damning information comes freom his direct quotes (or those of his lawyer).

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ursacorwin Donating Member (528 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
97. ding ding! we have a winner...
let's recall:
-the rethug controlled media.
-ashcroft's insanity.
-rove's dirty tricks.
-and perhaps most importantly:
all news about intelligence matters has a deeper, hidden truth.

berger's no idiot. he knew what he was doing because while they pretend otherwise, all intel people do shit like this, and all the time. i can't remember which one, but a recent former CIA director was busted with all kinds of unprotected files on his home computer that he wasn't supposed to have. there are other examples.

no, this stinks like a set up, and more. i'll wait for more information before i judge berger or the rest of the clinton team.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #97
116. John Deutsch
was the CIA guy, and The Big Dog had to pardon him to get out of that mess as Deutsch was preparing to make a deal. While it may not be uncommon, it is still a serious issue. Berger is no longer an intel person, he was looking at this information to prepare for testimony, and definately knows better than this. This stinks like a setup? Berger ADMITTED to knowingly taking documents out of the archives that he knew he shouldn't take. Then he discarded documents that he knew he shouldn't even have. If this is a setup, then Berger has to be in on it, because all the mistakes were his. The biggest problem is that we don't have any access to the documents in question, so the freepers and FAUX can make up whatever they want about the contents.
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pale reflection Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #97
117. I wish I could agree with you...
...but Berger admits taking these documents, and he voluntarily returned most. Ashcroft and Rove had nothing to do with this, I'm sorry to say.

There isn't any conspiracy.

This was just stupid.

And it makes Berger look like he's the one with something to hide, or worse, working for someone else. He better fall on his proverbial sword, and quick, or this could get nasty if Rove has anything at all to grasp onto.
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Emboldened Chimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. Man, they're gonna have a field day with this one...
count on it.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. relax, everyone
it sounds very bad, because the story is written to make it sound that way.

Notice this part:

Government and congressional officials familiar with the investigation, who spoke only on condition of anonymity because the probe involves classified materials, said the investigation remains active and no decision has been made on whether Berger should face criminal charges.




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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Regardless of how this turns out
It is probably the dumbest thing I've heard that someone did in a long time and since Bush is our pResident-- that's really saying something.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. LOL
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Tippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I have to agree with you 100% n/t
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. I suspect there might not be charges at all
The point of this is to make the investigation public as a way of hurting the Dems. If there were going to be charges, they would speak for themselves. There would be no need to publicize the fact there is an investigation. Still, Berger should've known better, to put it mildly.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I agree n/t
n/t
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Notice that this investigation has been going on for months
if they had something, charges already would've been brought. I also think Berger was right to tell the truth in the story, even if it makes him look bad, rather than do a no comment, which would make him seem guilty.
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SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. You're right .. I read the entire article ... I smell a rat
Headlines are much worse than the truth ... Another way to try to blame Clenis as we prepare for the 911 report to come out.

Nice try Rove you *&^%ing A*&hole
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. We should be thankful that he's identified as a Clinton adviser
when he's also an informal adviser to Kerry. "Kerry adviser subject of probe" would be worse. It sounds like this investigation has gone on for some time. News probably was leaked now to embarrass the Dems before their convention.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. The news just broke...
Wait until Limbaugh, Drudge and Hannity get their hands on the story. They'll make sure to bring it up.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Yeah, the light was flashing earlier over at Drudge
They'll milk this one for all it's worth.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I'm sure they will
but most people don't know who Sandy Berger is, and his connection to Kerry is peripheral at best.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
87. The other underground is already on it..TROUSERGATE
is what they are calling it.
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Isere Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. Kerry will have to dump him pronto!
This is BAD! I don't know what the facts are, but until they are fully known, Kerry needs to distance himself from Berger pronto.

Fox is already having multiple orgasms over this story. And isn't it handy that the story provides a perfect distraction from the 9-11 Commission findings?

Who needs this on the threshold of the Democratic Convention?

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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I'm sure Kerry will handle this fine
The story obviously was leaked by Rove et al now for a reason. The investigation's been going on for a number of months, yet it comes out now? Hmmm...
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Bush was AWOL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. Convenient timing to let this slip into the news n/t
nm
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SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. This is were we distinguish ourselves from the Pukes....
If it's true, we want to kick his hiney to kingdom come and back more than anyone. If a puke does something like this ... well... it's excuse city ... they call in the Ted Olsons and send out the talking points ...

WTF was he THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. Dumb, dumb, dumb!
He was national security advisor...if anyone should know better!!

Just wait for the attacks!
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. this is seriously cheneyed up. what an idiot.
he has left himself wide open for whatever happens next. he should have been more careful if he had to steal documents to cover for Clinton. the bush people never get caught making things disappear.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. If he were trying to destroy them
he wouldn't have left them sitting around his house and then turned the bulk of them over when he realized they needed to be returned.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. The Bush people get caught all the time, but they control the media and JD
The right wing controls the media and the Justice Department, so they don't care if they get caught.

When we controlled the government, for example the Senate during Bush, we didn't do a damn thing about investigating the other side. When they are in control, they use everything in their power to take our side down.

When are we going to learn to fight as mean and dirty as they do?
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. well that's easy to answer. just as soon as we regain control of the
Presidency, the House, and the Senate. right about then i think we'll be in full fighting mode.
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steve6784 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
119. well that's easy to answer
As soon as you gain control, you'll make it all go away. Get out your big Hoover. You REALLY have a pile of dirt to clean up.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. If he broke the law, prosecute the bastard
I know I would. I already knew what he was doing was wrong. So if it turns out that it was also illegal, then he should definitely be prosecuted.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Except he won't be prosecuted
That's why there's a story. This is reminiscent of Ken Starr, who used the media to try cases he could never win in the courts. Notice the contrast with the Plame case, where there are no leaks.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Steno Sue Schmidt
now there's Steno John Solomon.

Columbia Journalism Review busted Solomon for writing a story just for the RNC.

http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000314.asp

John Solomon of the Associated Press wrote a piece Friday headlined, "Kerry's 1994 Effort to Cut Defense Eyed," examining an appropriations amendment Kerry sponsored in 1994. Recapping the sentiments expressed by Democratic senators at the time, Solomon reports, "The cuts would threaten national security. U.S. fighter pilots would be endangered. And the battle against terrorism would be hampered, opponents charged."

"And that's just what Kerry's fellow Democrats had to say."

Solomon pegs his piece to Sen. John McCain's defense of Kerry's record yesterday, writing that "As Kerry, now a presidential candidate, assails President Bush's stewardship of national security, his own voting record in the Senate is coming under increasing scrutiny. On Thursday, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona came to Kerry's defense, saying the Massachusetts Democrat wasn't weak on defense."

But that's it for current events. We never do find out who, exactly, is scrutinizing Kerry's record, nor does Solomon mention anything further about McCain's statements.

So what prompted the intrepid reporter to dig into Kerry's record? Just for fun, take a look at the headline to this March 9, 2004 Republican National Committee research report: "Even Fellow Democrats Warned Kerry About His Dangerous Cuts" (Italics ours).
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obelus Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
70. There are plenty of laws he may have broken...
Conspiracy, attempting to withold evidence from an ongoing investigation, spindling mutilating and destroying public property. Oh, this guy has screwed the pooch. Now Bush can gather steam behind the idea that the missing data in the notes is what exonerates his incompetance prior to 9/11. This is the mother of all strawmen.

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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
43. Notice how the media and Justice Dept. jump on any Clinton-related figure
Where are the criminal cases and news stories about Plame, Republican computer hacking, Tom DeLay, Enron, etc.?

The answer, those are all crimes involving Republicans, so the Associated Press and the Justice Department don't fucking care.

When we get back control of the government, we had better learn to come down on the Republicans as hard as they come down on us, or we might as well give up now.

The right wing plays hard ball, we play softball, and it's getting real old.
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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. you're so right..its getting VERY old! n/t
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. We on the left have to start CRACKING BALLS!!!
Attack them all, investigate these Nazis, and boycott sponsors who support GOP hate speech!!!
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
88. i agree about plame, the hacking and delay but ENRON?
come on....that story has hardly been buried.
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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
45. Perfect Timing..gotta hand it to the Repubs...
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:40 PM by Danieljay
they are experts at distraction. You can bet this will be played over and over again like a mantra. So much for the 9-11 commission report this week and the democratic convention. Its always something (terror alerts are losing their appeal I guess), and Dems giving them the bait to bite on doesn't help one bit. When are dems going to wake up and start preparing themselves for this? Every effing time we start rolling on something its one-upped by the repubs.

I'm a big believer in trying to affirm the best however I just don't know any more. Is it really possible to win this thing in November..forgive my doubt...but I'm really beginning to wonder. Whats it going to take? How many former Bush advisors and administration officials have come forward with the truth only to be trashed and discarded within a couple of weeks, and now this, The Republicans wet dream again rules the airwaves.... Its CLINTONS fault and Sandy Berger was covering it up! ARgggghhh..! I've had it!

Okay...I've vented. Time for a deep breath. much better now! What now?
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Democrats won't stand up and fight, Republicans will, that's the problem
Our side lets every "former Bush advisor" get discredited, sometimes seemingly without so much as a single strong word of defense.

The Republicans from the top down will defend their own and destroy our side.

We need some elected officials who aren't afraid of fighting.
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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. even when they do they are then portrayed as "angry"...
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:52 PM by Danieljay
well damnit...I AM angry is that an some kind of effing problem? They are actually creating an atmosphere that honest debate is somehow un-patriotic and being angry is some kind of liberal disease. Dont question anything, move on, there is nothing to see here (unless its about those commie liberals). I want my country back, the pod people have come and taken it away.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. They've obviously been saving this for now
As I said in several other posts, it's clear from the article this investigation is not new.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
49. Hannity
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:59 PM by creeksneakers2
Hannity is already insinuating that Berger was hiding incriminating documents from the 9/11 commission.

I hope there were back up copies. Once the GOP starts its always a battle to prove innocence while they just make up any accusation they want.

I remember the GOP didn't want to turn some Clinton documents over to the 9/11 commission.
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I don't even care anymore. Bush needs to go. That's all I care about.
I have a feeling that some massive excrement is about to hit
the spinning blades, I sense some real trouble ahead for Bush.
This incident will blow over in time. There seems to be a frenzy of look over there not over here information right now. Something is brewing.
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SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
50. This is good - hope the Big Dog pulls Wilsons bacon outta the fire...
Looks like the pukes are countering with the Sandy Berger non-story

It's heating up folks !!!!
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. I think you may be right
The Bushies release stuff like this when they know bad news is about to hit. It's an attempt to muddy the waters - a preemptive strike.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
54. This can't be right
Clinton IGNORED terrorism.How can there be documents existing that proves otherwise?
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Josh Marshall has some news on this. Still about as clear as mud.
It seems that this was a technical violation and that he had copies and not the actual documents? We don't know the whole story yet. <http://talkingpointsmemo.com /> I'm still with Hunter Thompson's big darkness come soon theory at this point.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. What is this theory?
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SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Yeah ! Inquiring minds want to know !!!
Sounds like a useful, apropos theory, especially as it relates to the Niger-Yellowcake-Wilson-Novak-Plame-Whatever's next affair ....
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Hunter Thompson ended one of his recent articles with that phrase
after recounting all the looting and havoc that has been created by the Bush family. I think he meant that there will be a point of no return with this bunch. The other less optimistic part is that they have created a mess that will take a lifetime or more to fix.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #54
133. Serious? Or did I miss the irony of something? Guess you don't believe
Richard Clark? Or Albright? Or others, including some in this administration who admitted that Clinton gave it a lot of attention, but was caught in the smears and his character assassination. If he attacked, they would call wag the dog. And in some instances, the CIA could not confirm connections.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
64. Why would he do this?
How important are these documents?

Was he trying to hide something?

Is he trying to expose a possible whitewash by the 9/11 commission?

Interesting.

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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Is he doing an Elsberg
a la Pentagon Papers.
I hope so!
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DubyaSux Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
66. My theory...
...it's possible the notes and documents had incriminating evidence.

But not against Clinton.

During the transition period, I'm sure Berger kept lots of notes. So, it's possible he can show Bush and Co. were full force on the Iraq bandwagon before he even took office.

Since Berger works for Kerry, he has a motive to do this. Bush could be devastated by documents showing he had every intention of invading Iraq regardless of what the intelligence showed.

Sounds plausible and possibly, legal if they were copies - not the originals.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
68. This is all bullshit
Mr. Berger spent his entire life in the national security system. He would have to be retarded (which he is not) to just take the docs for talking points. Since he is a democrat, jis motives are good and there is no reason to investigate him further. F'n repub nazis.
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obelus Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
69. This is as bad as it looks...
but possibly not for partisan reasons. Things have come to an ugly boil at the CIA with the Wilson/Plame affair, the number one and number two slots open after midnight resignations, and the infamous 16 little words. The CIA is now, I believe, on the offensive and not willing to take the fall for 9/11 or the rush to war in Iraq. From The Wilderness outlines this turnabout cogently as being the staging for criminal indictments to the uppermost reaches. A case can be made, perhaps, that the CIA has decided it will outlive any administration and will not simply roll over. They are willing to spill because they have been compromised and scapegoated and they are in the middle of something important.

It is altogether possible that senior executives--both Republican and Democrat may see jail. Berger's actions, if sustained, are clearly criminal. But there may be plenty of criminality to go around once Tenet starts speaking to a federal prosecutor. The spooks are angry.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Paul O'Neill
DIDN'T THE REPUBS ACCUSE PAUL O'NEILL OF TAKING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS? I BELIEVE THAT TURNED OUT TO BE UNTRUE. MAYBE THIS WILL TOO. THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY PANCAKE. LET'S WAIT AND SEE ON THIS.

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morcatknits Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #74
78. Just what I was thinking!
When all the dust up about O'Neill came about, there was to be a criminal investigation, but O'Neill stood his ground. Turns out, it was the government's fault, not his.

When the dust clears, this may be very different that it is being made to appear. I hope it is investigated out the wazoo.

Morcatknits
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #74
120. Paul O'Neill was accused of
taking classified documents from his office (not the national archives) and I believe that the resolution was that they decided to declassify those documents that weren't yet declassified and forget the whole thing. I'm sorry, but this is a much more serious issue than the Paul O'Neill thing. Besides, the direct quotes from Berger make it sound very much like he did something wrong, he knew it was wrong when he was doing it, and he did it anyway. If that's his side of the story, than I don't think this will turn out to be untrue. This will blow over, but it's still not good, and it will give the tinfoil hat freepers plenty of fuel in the meantime.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. Initial reports, blahblah - but there is no good in this.
Shades Fawn Hall! And not near as titillating. :silly:

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
73. It was an awfully long article
If they really had anything, it would have been short and to the point. This seems like the kind of thing the media does when it wants to hint at something, but doesn't really have much. It sounds like he took a copy of a copy. Maybe a technical violation that would never hold water if it was really pursued. Thus, the long article that hints at violation without being specific. I don't think it will amount to much but a day or two's worth of distraction.
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mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
76. The Dems always reveal everything and the pubs hide everything. I'll
take the Dems anyday of the week over the mystery criminals!
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
77. Sandy is no more a criminal than the rest of them
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 11:46 PM by nolabels
Who out there has the amount of 124,480,000,000 in their pocket? The corporations and the crooks (known as politicians) commited fraud and stole every damn dime of it and killed a lot people in the process

The War in Iraq Cost the United States
http://costofwar.com /



http://www.thecorporation.tv/trailer /
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ze_dscherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
79. RW already calls it "Whitewash-Gate"
Found that at WorldNetDaily when I googled for articles on the subject.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
80. I might have some insight.
I do a lot of research at the National Archives as well as in other places. I can't find the documentation online, but sitting all over the place in the actual NARA buildings--particularly at College Park--there are all sorts of flyers detailing how to handle documents and what you can and cannot do. Among them, if I recall correctly, are instructions for handling classified documents.

There is an entire rainbow of document categorization and regulations for handling each type. Some are protected due to fragility, old age and/or value. Some are "confidential" to American citizens only (I once saw a Chinese national get busted for photocopying engineering designs at College Park). Some are protected by copyright. And of course, some are secret.

With each level of importance, there is added a new and more stringent set of document handling regulations. They can be downright exasperating.

Sandy's situation was probably even more exasperating. He was allowed to look at documents in the possession of NARA which he himself had created and annotated. He was expected to testify before Congress about them.

And yet, I'm willing to bet, he was probably constrained by NARA regulations from taking notes about the documents he himself wrote, because they were classified.

It's still not excusable, but I have a hunch that Sandy Berger got angry with the pissant NARA regulations and took notes (maybe when he shouldn't have), maybe nicked a couple of extra copies, and maybe even pocketed some of his own original hand written notes, because like most humans his memory probably isn't good enough to totally recall what he was thinking at the time he created them.

The article is unclear about what exactly happened, so the above is total speculation.

Anyway, I hope this helps. I'm befuddled myself.

(By the way, I'll bet I wasn't the only fellow who noticed Bush's people pull the "look but don't copy" trick with his military records. It's a practical impossibility for most people to accurately recall more than a couple of pages of text, much less pull the minutae out of thousands of pages of military bureaucratese. Thus, allowing journalists the opportunity to examine but not copy the bulk of the President's records was an empty gesture--and deliberately so, I'll warrant.)

Oh, and one last thing. Something's fishy, all right, but Karl Rove has a feculent bouquet which I don't sense here. Documents can be damning, but they can also exonerate the accused. I wonder if Sandy was trying to set himself up with an insurance policy in case the Bush Administration tried to pin the 9/11 tail on Clinton's donkey. Since Bush's handlers have a bad habit of pointing fingers while simultaneoulsy witholding documents, having access to his own work may have appeared to be a golden opportunity....

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Sorry.
I think that last paragraph is totally unclear. Let me try again.

Among the many rumors which flitted about this town in 2000 were persistent ones which suggested that Clinton's FBI and CIA flat-out nailed al Qaeda before they could pull off any stunts on New Years Eve, 1999.

The article seems to imply that Berger lifted some draft copies of the after action report on those incidents.

It would be particularly embarassing for the Bush Administration to attempt to blame Clinton for 9/11, only to have a report of a highly successful Clinton-era counterterrorism operation surface. That's why I smell a good-tasting cigar rather than Karl's hogwash.

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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #81
118. NPR is reporting that he smuggled his own current notes out.
The jury is still out on the copies of the draft report, though.

But as I suspected, Berger was nailed for making notes while he was examining the documents and then leaving with them.

It's going to be pretty easy for Berger's defenders to skewer the knuckle-draggers over this one: a guy who recently held the highest security clearances in America took a look at the documents he helped write and smuggled notes about them out. He's not permitted to take notes on his own work so that he can properly inform Congress? Bullshit. It's not like the feller discovered anything he didn't already know at some point, right?

But, on the other hand, it really is a sloppy and amateurish mistake. His first damned mistake was getting spotted pinching the notes in the first place. You gotta lube up the archivist just like you would your bartender or your loan consultant.


________________________

That's the important part above, but if you're interested, I'll also point something else out which I already touched briefly upon. The regulations regarding the handling of these documents are sometimes absurd. What I didn't mention in full is that the bureaucratic garbage that Berger was hit with is a tried and true delaying technique which I have seen myself. I'll give you a concrete example.

The state of Connecticut, if it can be characterized in the singular, is the most racist state I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with, and everyone here should be ashamed that we count the likes of Attorney General Richard Blumenthal and author and wannabe Congressman Jeff Benedict amongst our Democratic ranks. Connecticut hates Indians; they're all in a state of denial about the fact that Indians exist even though several tribes have continued to hold state-protected reservations there since Connecticut was a colony.

These tribes were part of the original thirteen colonies and by an oversight were not officially recognized by the federal government. To be federally recognized today, a tribe must show that it acted as a social and political entity since first contact with non-Indians, which for Connecticut tribes means about 1632 A.D., when Shakespeare's sonnets were barely turning yellow on the shelf.

Naturally, the tribes need to have access to the records in the state archives to prove their own existence to the federal government. The state doesn't want any more tribes, because it's inconvenient for them. So, the state has over time continued to restrict access to the documents, citing a number of high-profile instances of document theft. (Never mind the fact that a whole lot of those missing documents are purportedly sitting on Assistant AG Dan Schaeffer's desk across the street.)

As a researcher in the employ of one tribal group, I was charged with finding useful colonial documents. I quickly discovered that great numbers of them were "missing." I called in the lawyers and lo and behold, they suddenly became available again. But I couldn't copy them (nor would I have--they're far too fragile for that). Nor could I have them copied by the state because they were changing out the camera bulbs or something. Nor could I take digital photos of them because electronic devices were not allowed in the document examination area.

And at one point, some smart-assed bureaucrat told me I was prohibited from taking notes because pencils and pens were not permitted in the viewing area. By then, however, it was too late, because archivists' jobs are to make information available to the public, not hide it. Unless you piss them off, that is, and the CT AGs apparently did a pretty good job of that, which helped me more than they ever succeded in hurting my client. Eventually, I found myself transcribing 300 year old documents written in 16th Century English at a masterful rate of perhaps one page an hour, and that was as good as it ever got.

We never did find a lot of information which existed by reference just twenty years ago, and that's exactly how the state wanted it. I know from hard experience that this is exactly the kind of horse shit that those people were pulling with Sandy Berger.

Does it even need to be noted that this is the modus operandi of the Bush administration and has been since before he was inaugurated, when he hid all of his Texas records in Poppy's library?

I don't blame Berger too much for the notes, but he hurt us all by getting caught doing it, and that's just from a researcher's point of view--I bet the spooks are twisted like clown balloons. And if he ever goes to Researcher's prison he's gonna be everyone's bitch for taking documents--that's tantamount to pedophaelia amongst my ilk.

It's a sad and ugly story and hell yes it's being used as yet another red herring by the people who seem to own the fishing fleet. You can take it from me.

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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. yes!
Timing: a little too good considering 9/11 report. I'd bet the ground rules were questionable somehow, someone said don't sweat it--a whisper in the ear--you wrote it, and then cheney'd him with that.

But we don't really know yet. Josh Marshall mentions that the actual docs were copies--which changes things a bit.

To those who say we distance from Berger as quick as possible, and such--I say why play their game? Or better put, why play the role they have selected for democrats in their game? Would a repug ever do that? No. At the least they'd employ spin and a massive cover-up featuring war, assassinations, global pillage and rampant destruction just to distract from the crime. Happens time and again. They protect their guys!

Perhaps we needn't go as far, but let's not offer his head up on a platter until real facts come in.

Meantime, be nice to fight back the spin instead of giving in--holier than thou, although it feels good (is good), gets us nowhere.

People screw up, so what? But he can be defended better than that, right or wrong.

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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. David Gergen on the Today Show this morning suggested that this is an
attempt by the Bushies to take the heat off the 9/11 report coming out later this week. He pointed out that Berger is a brilliant man who has served this country well and that the this investigation has been going on for months. He questioned why it had become public only now--just as the 9/11 report was coming out. He also said that Berger had only taken his handwritten notes and copies of existing documents and that he did not take any originals. It was a dumb thing to do certainly, but Gergen thought it was totally without criminal intent. You could tell he was really disgusted by * and his henchmen for the whole episode. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which this administration will go to cover-their-own-asses and to distract the public. Just when I think I've seen it all--I find out (sadly) that I haven't. This is going to be a rocky few months for us to November. You know the republican Noise Machine (Rush & Sean & Faux) will be all over this story pounding away at it for the next several days. Make no mistake they are out to destroy us all.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. "suspicious" I believe was the word he used
Gergen pretty much blew the whole thing out of the water. Of course OUR "friends" on NPR just reported that the investigation is just now starting...........when in FACT it is already over.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #89
137. Defund NPR!!!
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phillybri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. Gergen is a Repub and he's calling bullshits...
The documents were copies, and this timing is just a little too perfect...
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Timefortruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #91
100. Gergen is an honest man.
Which means the Republicans excommunicated him long ago.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #83
96. Seattle
Remember how they found the truck with explosives at the border? I never thought that was a serendipitous find.
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itcfish1 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
86. Bull Crap
Just another WH diversion. Halliburton is in trouble again, so let's focus on something else.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. I agree, but there may be more to it
I do think that they are making a big deal about something trivial, but that's what the Bush people do. On the Today show this morning, they were saying that he didn't take any original documents and just notes and a few copies to prepare for his testimony before the commission. He may have broken a rule or two, but he had no criminal intent. He just wanted to be prepared for testimony about events that had taken place a few years before, and which involved referencing data and documents that he had not seen in 3 years or so. Lots of data and documents.


Everyone who works for the government understands one thing: CYA. If it means keeping copies of documents at home because you're afraid that the originals may end up being altered or doctored by superiors or successors. It happens at all levels of government when the spotlight is on.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
92. I imagine that this morning Karl Rove and Karen Hughes are
rubbing themselves raw over one line that appears in the story:

"Berger currently serves as an informal adviser to the campaign of presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry."

By the time the two of them are done with this, Clinton will be responsible, Kerry will be responsible...I wonder how much BushCo paid Berger to be the "July Surprise."

:tinfoilhat:

Thanks, Sandy. You fucking idiot.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
93. There's MORE THAN MEETS THE EYE HERE
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 08:28 AM by Beetwasher
Berger is sharp as a tack. There's definitely more going on and we may never know what it is...On the surface it seems incredibly stupid, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a good reason for him doing what he did or he didn't really do what what's being implied and we don't have nearly enough facts to draw any conclusions.

I expect this story to disappear pretty quick.
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
94. How's That Plame Investigation Going, Gen. ASSCROFT?
they don't even hide their partisanship..
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
95. Big Deal!
They were his own papers. How could that be stealing?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Timefortruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. Do you have a link to that?
Much of it contradicts what I've been reading.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. Probably got the information from talk radio
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. OMG, it's worse than Watergate!!!!
:eyes:

He took docs that he authored!

He took classified docs that he had seen before and/or authored!

Maybe original and classified don't mean the same thing!

Maybe you could return to FR and participate in the gazillion threads there on this topic!

Maybe you are a farkin' moron (or moran if you prefer it in your own language)!
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Timefortruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
99. This has something to do with Plame.
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 10:34 AM by Timefortruth
There was an analyst on CNN just now who said this really might be nothing. Berger had the right to be there and was also permitted to take some stuff with him, what is classified isn't always clear.

That will be the essence of the defense if there are indictments in the Plame treason. The big difference is that there is no accusation that Berger disseminated the classified information, but that detail will be lost.
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Nightjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
102. I am sick to the point of being nauseas
Some of the more politically savvy here have made me feel a little bit better.
But the thing that nags at me is that when the public hears "Clinton" they pay more attention. And I suspect the Republican- Nazi propaganda machine will not let this fade away.
They have their own news network for crap sake! Fox is number one in the ratings! If the most watched cable news network won't let it go---it won't go away.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong!
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Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Richard Clarke
said that everyone in government at the time had read this stuff. It wasn't at all secret at the time. He seemed to think it was no big deal. (This is a paraphrase from a radio spot that was parapharasing him, so some if the detail may be wrong.)
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Nightjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. Thank you. That does make me feel better.
I literally had trouble sleeping last night because the last thing I saw was Aaron Brown (is that the CNN 10pm guy?)saying Berger was stuffing papers into his pants.

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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
110. This one sure brought out the usual suspects.
Did I read that this happened last October and they are just bringing it out now? Sounds like typical Rovian horseshit distraction tactics. The Plame indictments must be coming soon.

As for the usual suspects, and you know who you are, this ain't nothing to get excited about, so put down your dicks. Don't forget, the mellinium bombings were thwarted, unlike the idiot chimp's conspicuously poor effort before 9/11.

How do you spell DESPERATION?
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arlib Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #110
122. Yes it did...
...all of them at once. And they all have the same pretty logo too. Wrapping oneself in the flag again.
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
115. Josh Marshall now says the leak is highly suspicious
www.talkingpointsmemo.com

excerpt:

According to this article in the Post, the National Archives began investigating this matter in October and then referred it to the FBI in January. That is, needless to say, at least six months ago. The article also notes that the FBI has yet to interview Berger, which suggests that the investigation has not reached a critical stage, for good or ill, that would have brought it to light now.

The most obvious, and probably the only, explanation of this leak is that it is intended to distract attention from the release of the 9/11 report due later this week.
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Bombero1956 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. I just heard
on Franken's show that David Gergen said he took copies of the documents and that the originals were never taken.

David Gergen, who was an adviser to Clinton and worked with Berger for a time in the White House, said Tuesday, I think its more innocent than it looks.

Appearing on NBCs Today show, Gergen said, I have known Sandy Berger for a long time. He would never do anything to compromise the security of the United States. Gergen said he thought that it is suspicious that word of the investigation of Berger would emerge just as the Sept. 11 commission is about to release its report, since this investigation started months ago.

Breuer said Berger believed he was looking at copies of the classified documents, not originals.

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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Sleazy GOP senators just said Kerry campaign RECEIVED documents.
They didn't point to any proof, just said that they may have been received. Someone (I think it was the odious Saxby Chambliss) referred to "the Kerry administration." Freudian slip, Mr. Veteran-basher?

Anyway, the GOP seems to be wetting its pants with collective glee over this. We need to nip it in the bud before they exploit it.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #126
131. The problem with
nipping this in the bud is that the only real way to do this is either a) Sandy Berger has to be cleared of taking the documents, which will be difficult since I think he's already admitted to taking them, or b) For the documents in question to be released publicly, so that anyone can see that they are not sensative or damaging. The problem with this option, is that * will not allow the release if they are a genuine matter of national security or if they don't have anything damaging in them that he can score political points off of. He'd rather let people speculate about what they could be, rather than show that there's nothing damaging in them.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
129. Feh!
Great new "weapon of mass distraction" for the week, eh? The week before the DNC make it look like the Clinton administration is--once again--to blame for all the 9/11 shit. Don't you just love the way the media is set into a frenzy over a Democrat just when Cheney's continuous ties with the scandal at Halliburton is ready to be completely unearthed and shown for the lack of integrity that it was? No celebrities in trouble this week, so we'll go to what is essentially a back-burner item, sure to inflame the ignorant and inflexible.

I just wish that people were not just sheep, because it's THEIR demise that is inevitable if they keep allowing themselves to be lead the way they are. For crying out loud, this should be a NON-ISSUE, while Cheney and Halliburton should be in all the headlines.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. Regular people don't write headlines for the Associated Press
nor do regular folks write the articles like this, or host talk shows disseminating GOP talking points.

It really bothers me when folks see an article like this and immediately assume that the public is at fault. The folks who write the article and publish the article are at fault. We are all just watching.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
134. Why accuse Berger or go along with the attack - as of today?
It means the Repugs won again, if you think the worst about Berger. They are good if you don't raise an eyebrow of skepticism.

What needs to be known:

What are the rules of the National Archives about note taking?
What are the rules of this Commission about taking notes on documents in the Archives related to the Commissions project?
What was original without back-up copies?
Were there backup copies?
Which classified papers did he walk out with?
Which classified papers did he return?
Which classified papers, if any, were lost?
When did he return them?
Who say him put notes in his underwear or pockets?
Are they claiming that they were documents or notes?
When did they report it?
What is the claim of the National Archives vs the right wing?
What are the claims of the Commission vx the right wing?
If there were no back-up copies, was this made known to everyone who accessed the papers?
Did the Commission or the Natl Archives list, post, or convey the conditions under which the viewing or note-taking was to be conducted?
Did anyone else take notes?
What exactly is the difference between the accusation as it applies to notes vs documents?

Get the idea? We don't know much.

A guy who has been talked about as a VP candidate isn't going to mess up his reputation.

Remember, there are infitisimal government scandals coming out of the Clinton administration that aren't a joke.

The right wing is famous for changing rules and the story.
The right wing is famous for having their declared scandals not hold up under investigation, judicial law, or in truth. They are masters of wolf and implied guilt. They go for headlines whether they are on Drudge or Limbaugh or the Washington Post. They then convince their followers that the lie is the truth and there base buys it all.

Temporary skepticism is the call this early in the game.


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