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King of New Orleans Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:33 PM
Original message
Kerry aide: Bush 'flat out lied' on Iraq
That Kerry aide? Max Cleland

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/2004...

Cleland, a national co-chairman of Kerry's campaign, described the Bush administration's arguments that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and ties to al-Qaeda terrorists, as a "pack of lies."


The former lawmaker from the southern state of Georgia defended the vote that he, Kerry and others cast in the Senate to authorize military intervention in Iraq, saying the Congress was "flat-out lied to."

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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Go MAX!!!
I wish he was still in the senate.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. can even a repig dominated congress ignore this...?
They crucified Clinton for lying. Wouldn't the hypocrisy of not acting be too much even for the party of hypocrisy?
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Eh? That would be nice, but no.
Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Viva Max! eom
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Speaking of Max...

I wonder what position he'll hold in the Kerry administration. He certainly deserves one.

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King of New Orleans Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Probably Veterans Affairs
eom
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markdd Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Been there. Done that.
Under Carter, after that he was Sec of State in GA. Then he ran for Senate.

I think he needs to be more out front than VA.
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luaneryder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. And he did his best for his fellow vets.
I would love to see him at the helm of the VA once more, but as you say he needs to be in a prominent spot. Ha, so I'm sure the freepers will be dissing his combat service next. Go Max!!
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BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. LAtimes magazine did a great peice on Max yesterday
http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/l...

Max Cleland has just finished speaking at the Veteran's Memorial in downtown Anchorage when the swarm begins, people lining up 14-deep for a chance to meet the former Democratic U.S. senator from Georgia. He looks almost regal, perched on a white pillow as members of the audience stand reverently before him. He greets them one by onesmiling, bantering, posing for snapshots for more than half an hour, or three times the length of his speech to the Saturday crowd. It is a typical Cleland appearance.

As a young man, he stood 6 feet, 2 inches tall. Today, Cleland roughly measures 4 feet, having lost both legs and his right arm to a grenade in Vietnam. He seems tinier, though, seated in his wheelchair alongside Alaska's strapping former governor, Tony Knowles.

There is a bit of awkwardness as people approach Cleland, unsure of the proper etiquette. Do you extend a left hand to shake his left hand, or squeeze his left hand with your right one, or skip the ritual altogether? In the few seconds it takes to decide, Cleland hollers a greeting"Hey, boss!"and his big paw is wrapped around his visitor's neck, reeling him in for a hug.

It is so sudden and so natural, Cleland can't seem warmer or happier or more at ease putting others at easenever mind how he feels inside.

-- condt --
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. OMG!!!

That picture! I hadn't seen that one before. I'm glad it was only water that flew out my nose this time. :-)

Anyway...good article, thanks.


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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. FINALLY!!!!!! Bob Scheiffer in The Week (Sunday) challenged McAuliffe:
ARE YOU CALLING THE PRESIDENT A LIAR????? McAuliffe did a good job of converting the answer to something milder... I wish he could have said: yes, he lied...ergo he IS A LIAR!
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Well, it's taken too long, but it is now out in the open
The press wasn't going to say it, and Kerry didn't want to go first.

Bush is going to have a hard time with this. His only defense is that he was simply interpreting the CIA intellegence and drawing the same conclusions as everybody else. How much longer will this ignorance-of the-facts defense hold up? The sheer stupidity of thinking they could get away with all of this because Iraq would be a "victory in the war on terror" and nobody would care is astounding.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. "Is the President a liar or just an ignorant ass?"
Let's have that debate.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Freeper argument
Either he is stupid or he is smart. It makes no difference, the result is the same.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Freeper argument?
Bush could be both. My point was that either way he's unqualified and unfit for office. He led the country into war knowing he didn't need to, and/or he demonstrated a catatrophic lack of judgment.

Bush: Idiot or Liar? That should be the national debate.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. chimp has a criminal mind
All the while doing tricky shitty things that are at the same time amazingly stupid.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I agree
but as long as people understand that he has to be at least one of the two, that's what counts for me, anyways. Get the bastard out of office, and let historians and prosecutors deal with his corrupt ass.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
41. Whenever I see the words freeper and argument in the same vicinity
I'm always reminded of the title of an incredible Joe Walsh album (anyway, I had an album). "You Can't Argue With a Sick Mind".
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Bush is shrewd, and doesn't mind lying
I don't think that he's either stupid or smart. He's always had his way, and he's not going to stop now just because he happens to be the president. He's an opportunist to a great degree.
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billybob537 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. That would be all of the above.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Their
response will be that the Senators should have known better.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't forget to vote the article a "5"
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 12:48 PM by RationalRose
So it remains on Yahoo's front page!!!
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Done
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. Damn, too bad he didn't lie about something irrelevant like sex or...
...
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billybob537 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. What goes around
comes around. Time for Bush* to get his.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Good, It's Out There!
Now repeat ad infinitum and we might get somewhere!
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. EVERY Democrat has to say this!
This is how DAS RETHUGS get things done and we must do the same.

Hound and Kick Wolfie in his small nuts. That's what we must do to win!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sweet.
Will really enjoy seeing this in the news. If it's given much airtime, that is.
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. America, the Bushieful
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Welcome to DU
:hi:
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Thanks
Thanks for the welcome! (Anyone know how many posts I have to make before I can post a thread?)
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young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. When will others say this?
Bush has effectively blamed the CIA and all the media are going along with it. Maybe a few other people with a spine will speak out!
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. Max Cleland is a true patriot.
God bless him!!!
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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. Why do so many RW'ers have a hard time..
accepting that Dubya lied about Iraq, from whence he has such an obvious reason to benefit, when they had no trouble asserting that the Big Dog lied about private behavior?

hy poc ri sy
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. Viva La Max
about time they started firing back at this bunch of thieves
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
34. Someone needed to bust that bubble... The GOP KNOWS Bush lied,
So they are taking a stand of injured sanctimony and shock, for damage control. Yes SHOCK!!! That anyone could EVER call that lying SOB, a lying, well, he did'nt call Bush an sob, but I would have. But they are so appalled, and amazed, and SHOCKED, that anyone could call the pResident names! Oh my!

The GOP are all a bunch of phony, lying assholes themselves, for taking up for that criminal.

John Kerry needs to make a campaign add calling Bush a liar: "Hello, I am John Kerry, and I paid for this add. I want the American People to know why we are in Iraq... We are there, because George Bush lied to Congess, and to you, the American People, about the WMD Saddam Hussein was supposed to have. He lied to us, then took us into a completely unnecessary war, where tens of thousands have already, needlessly died. George Bush (looks directly into the camera), You owe us all, in this country, and Iraq, an answer-why did you lie."

I'm sure the pros can improve on this, but I think something to the same effect would constitute a smackdown of George Bush's entire campaign. Look-he lied, and if we pursue it, they cannot defend it! Are we too good to call Bush a liar?! I hope not, because he IS!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. They know that if they speak up they will be punished
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. In what way? By who? How?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Any deviation from the party line can mean
being left off committees, not invited to functions, or campaign funding withheld.

The GOP leadership is good at such things. They did it to Jeffords. During the 80's one was drummed out of the party because he was pro choice. I can't think of his name right now. Worn out from precinct walking.

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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Office of Special Plans
The invasion was a top priority before 911 Attack and the Pres. directed his staff to gather info. to convince Congress and the American that the invasion was necessary and urgent.

Rumsfailed created the OSP and VP Cheney pressured the CIA for raw data. Even when members of the CIA told the VP much of the info was shaky at best the leaders of the OSP took the raw data and fashioned it to fit what Bush wanted to present in a report to Congress and the world in order to have reasons to invaded Iraq.
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Yes to all that...much worse than merely lying, I agree...
They connived and lied. They lied for personal gain. People died, because they lied...on and on.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. Let's check in with the always honest Scott McClellan, shall we?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/2004071...

Q Scott, in a conference call sponsored by the Democratic National Committee earlier this morning, Senator Max Cleland, former Senator Max Cleland, who has been a campaign surrogate for Kerry, is saying the he and Senator Kerry were "flat out lied to about the war in Iraq." Let me quote again also what he theorized about the war. The President went to war "because he concluded that his daddy was a failed President, and one of the ways he failed was that he did not take out Saddam Hussein, so he would be Mr. Macho Man." What is your reaction to all that?

MR. McCLELLAN: My reaction is that all they can offer is more political attacks. The world, the Congress, the administration, all shared the same intelligence and all looked at the same intelligence, and concluded that there was a threat. And that threat needed to be addressed. The United Nations Security Council gave Saddam Hussein one final opportunity to comply.

It's been shown, since we went into Iraq, that he was still in serious violation of Security Council Resolution 1441. But I would remind you that the President's opponent looked at that same intelligence and made the same decision to support the use of force to remove that regime from power. I know he's been all over the map since that time frame, trying to justify his positions, and giving some tortured responses with regard to that position, particularly with his lack of support for the troops in voting against the $87 billion.
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hansolsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. Interesting moment when reporter asks Kerry if Max is right.
Kerry will be put on the spot to stand by Cleland on the lie statment, or repudiate it. I hope he stands by his friend.

The easiest case to make is simply to say Bush lied about the "certainty" of the evidence on his desk. We know now (and plenty of DU bloggers knew then) that the WMD evidence was thin gruel that wouldn't hold up a spoon let alone support a case for aggressive war.

Yet Bush and the boys came out day after day and told the American people there was no doubt that Saddam was armed to the teeth and dangerous as hell. Bush said in effect, "trust me; if you only knew what I know, you wouldn't hesitate to support the war."

But we know that on Dec 22, 2002, Bush looked at at Tenet and said, "is this all you've got?" We also know Tenet produced no new evidence of WMD in Iraq between Dec 2002, and March 2003, when Shrub starting dropping bombs. They had no new evidence of WMD; mostly they just had some theories about WMD.

Bush lied to the American people when he told us he had hard, incontrovertable evidence of WMD in Iraq when all he had was a pile of theories. That is a lie of a certain kind. It is a "Big Lie", and "Orwellian Lie". The problem is, Bush and his supporters have never read George Orwell, and think 1984 is just one more year. But we know better.

I hope John Kerry stands by his friend and doesn't hesitate to lay the lumber to George Bush from now 'til election day. Let 'm have it. He's got it coming.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. "I have complete confidence in Max's judgment!"
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:18 PM by TahitiNut
That's how Kerry should answer. When he's asked again, he should repeat the answer.

If pressed, he could ask them (in return) why they don't find it 'convenient' to question Bush when he says such things. Is it possible the press knows they're being fed bullshit?? Is it because bullshit sells papers and gets viewers?
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hansolsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Yup! N/T
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. why doesn't he point out the obvious lie bush told
in front of Kofi Anan, when he said that Saddam REFUSED to let inspectors in?

that's a videotaped, easily provable lie

then ask the media if they care to check on it and DRAW THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS

btw, he repeated that one at least once, maybe twice, cause the media REFUSED to call him on it, AFAIK

I never heard/saw refutation by any media outlet OR dem op on this
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hansolsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Yes, and there are many more specific acts of deception.
It is time for the Dems to call a spade a spade, and let the chips fall where they may.

Kerry has been reluctant to do that so far, in part because of his own vote for war resolution, and in part because so many of his personal backers supported the war. Some supported it because they saw the attack on Saddam Hussein as being in Israel's best interests. Others supported it to avoid being called weak on defense. Still others bought the WMD lies hook line and sinker, and now are ashamed to admit their own gullibility.

Well all these reasons are so far washed overboard by the storm of great events on the ground in Iraq, that it is now a fool's errand to try to cater to each of these refined sensibilities all the way to election day.

Many Kerry supporters need to wake up, smell the roses, admit their mistakes in backing the war, and give John Kerry room to wage an aggressive campaign.

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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
43. Max the Man
It's about time somebody started trading body blows.
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SalmonChantedEvening Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
48. Max Cleland
Is what being an American is all about.
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