Five US soldiers killed in mortar attack, Turkish army warns Iraqi Kurds

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=1&u=/afp/20040708/ts_afp/iraq_worldwrap_040708173222

SAMARRA, Iraq (AFP) - Five US soldiers and an Iraqi were killed in a major rebel mortar attack on the national guard headquarters in this restive Iraqi city as the Turkish army warned Iraqi Kurds against trying to change the demographics of the ethnically volatile northern city of Kirkuk.

Insurgents rained down 38 mortar rounds on the Iraqi national guard centre, destroying the building and claiming the lives of five US soldiers and one guardsman, Major Neal O'Brien of the 1st Infantry Division said. snip

Ankara, which backs the Turkmen minority who live mostly in and around Kirkuk, fears that Kurdish control of the area's oil resources could further strengthen the Iraqi Kurds whom it suspects of plotting to break away from Baghdad.


Turkey fears that such a prospect could fan separatist sentiment among its own restive Kurdish population in its southeastern corner, adjacent to northern Iraq.

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[daleo]

1. 38 mortar rounds sounds pretty serious

I don't know much about this stuff, but I was under the impression that the resistance was getting off a few rounds and skedaddling in the past. This many rounds seems to imply something new. Perhaps someone with a military background could make a comment.

[NNN0LHI]

2. I have no military background but I have been told by some...

...combat veterans that a mortar crew using a GPS is just about one of the most deadly weapons one can imagine.

Don

[Zynx]

3. Multiple tubes

No way would an Iraqi insurgent mortar crew dare to stay around and fire 38 shells. The US tracks trajectories and the insurgents know it. They normally do "shoot and scoot." This many shells, even with a well-trained crew, would probably take over two and a half minutes. Big risk.

Now, if you used five or six mortar tubes, this becomes safe and reasonable. You can fire all of the shells in thirty seconds or so and book well before the US can even target one site.

Sophisticated.

[tabasco]

8. When I read it I was thinking three tubes.

- I was mortar platoon leader for a couple years and three tubes were a mortar section. 16 rounds could be fired quickly without overheating the tube. Probably working in the same location with all three tubes "laid in" (oriented with compass) by the same section leader. JMHO.
- As this tragic loss shows, mortars are deadly and effective.
- RIP, Troops. We will do our best to punish the criminals that launched this needless war. :(

[Aidoneus]

4. it depends on the location

Baghdad near the Green Zone (dubbed the "Red Zone" by the resistance), maybe.. places like Samarra are very friendly to the resistance, they can move freely in almost all of the outlying villages and highways, so there's not so much a necessity for haphazard flight (there still is one, when it comes to the occupation forces retaliating blindly, and bringing helicopters into the matter). The occupyers do trace the barrage back, and can by estimating the trajectory, but it is more difficult when they are in territory hostile to the invaders. The gun-battle that follows is often half the exchange in itself and inevitably draws in more fighters than had been involved with the mortars themselves.

The aim of more experienced fighters by now should be near-perfect for the sets of occupation targets in whatever area the resistance fighters are in. Things like puppet police offices, military bases of the invaders, etc.. need only be scouted out in advance, then it is just a matter of basic mathematics to plan out the mortar/katyusha (longer range and far less accurate, not so much used yet except around Mosul) barrage. The military bases of the invaders in particular are hit almost on a nightly basis all over the country.

The fact is, the sort of operation as a moderate mortar barrage makes the "permanent military bases" idea the most insane death trap the crusaders could come up with. Just imagine a fixed target to practice on for the next year, or ten or fifty.. The plans are for the most expensive tombs ever built. They might as well put Marshall Applewight in charge of these bases (if anybody gets the reference without looking it up, give yourself a cookie--and I know, he's dead, but.. just go along with it, ok?).

[Zynx]

5. Agree

With a large fixed base (target) and a basically unlimited supply of mortars, you could eventually get ten tubes and fire for a couple minutes solid at the base.

That'll kill people.

[markses]

6. There's no question that this was a walked off target w/ multiple tubes

It is an impressive attack, to say the least. Six or seven teams (maybe more) at a variety of locations, all with accurate distancing and skill with a mortar tube. Wouldn't wanna be hanging around this place too long, especially if the friendlies are wink-winking the thing. A big shit sandwich.

[Aidoneus]

13. the aftermath is also of interest

I hinted at the possibility, and there was a more 'involved' battle following the barrage. The occupyers fired back in the area they guess where the barrages originated, destroying a house and killing 4. Later 2 helicopters were called in, one being forced down (safely but threatened) by small-arms fire. The strange thing is the casualty figures--18 other US soldiers wounded, 1-2(?!) Iraqi(s) killed, in a destroyed "Iraqi National Guard" local HQ?!

(on the side, I was mistaken in speaking above on a certain point--there are no nearby villages to Samarra or much else between Takrit & Balad, so that point is better applied to other locations..)

I wonder where in the city the event took place. The city of Samarra` is basically formed in quarters around the Great Mosque, one of the largest in the world, with a few suburbs beyond that. The US base nearby is outside the city, because they can't enter the area without the pesky side effect of being shot at and blown up. Where the "Nat'l Guard" base was here that was destroyed, I don't know.. most reports I can find aren't too descriptive.

A few days ago there was a series of highly coordinated attacks on the ex-Ba'ath institutions turned into the new organs of the local elites, those being pro-occupation parties. The HQ of the political party of the puppet Interior Minister was blasted, the office of the pro-occupation gang that threatened Zarqawi on al-Arabiya recently (coincidence?), the local police HQ, mayor's house, etc.. The US soldiers were even then afraid to intervene on the side of its local proxies and did nothing. This may be a last nail to their control in the area.

[markses]

18. Yes, I read the Juan Cole account with interest as well

Samarra has been a "restive" (read, Injun Territory) area throughout the occupation, and is basically outside the control of the US and its Iraqi proxies.

[Aidoneus]

21. there was a 'funny' line in that

funny in a "if people weren't dying" way, of course..
General Samarra`i claimed the city was won by a criminal gang of 300 gunmen.
...it's a city of 200,000 people.

No wonder they're fucked--they're fighting roving gangs of Desert Supermen out there!

[markses]

23. Yes, that line was completely absurd on several levels

First, that there were only 300 "gunmen" (I always love how the "good guys" have soldiers or troops, while the "bad guys" have "gunmen").

Second, that this was a criminal gang rather than an organized resistance against the puppet government.

[atreides1]

28. At Least We Now Know

Where some of the Iraqi Army troops are.

[Halliburton]

11. Damn Corporate Media!

I wish the journalists over there would have as much bravery as that Austrailian guy from Time Magazine. He is the only journalist that actually leaves his hotel!

[newyawker99]

27. Hi Halliburton!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[rexcat]

7. There appears to be an increase in the number of troops killed...

every week. Things don't look good in Iraq. It is too bad Bush* and his thugs got us into this. Do bad the Democratic leadership did't show any leadership in opposing this damn war!

[hansolsen]

9. media still only mentions Iraq when some U.S. troops are killed

No mention of other 30 or so attacks every day, the wounded, the Iraqi casualties, etc. And it is much worse after the "handover"

My guess is that the number of attacks is at least 80% of what it was before the handover, but the corporate media reporting of violence in Iraq is at about 8% or pre handover days. Damn them.

[quaoar]

12. NY Times story

The corporate media isn't all bad. There is a fabulous article posted on the NYT website today about how Fallujah has become a terrorist safe haven and car-bomb factory where Islamic fundamentalists run the city and frustrated Marines have to sit outside the city and take incoming fire.

[Aidoneus]

14. doesn't sound like a 'fabulous' piece, going by your tone

Not devoid of truth. The Marines and the quisling puppets of the occupation are shut out of the city, and the resistance forces do rule the day (and night) there. This is so even after the barbaric assault launched against it and periodic bombings by the invaders.

[hansolsen]

24. Yes, but it's only in the paper because five marines were killed

This is exactly what I am talking about.

There is no sytematic reporting of the war in Iraq. We are at war. Where the hell are the embeds now? Why don't we see a daily report on the number of attacks on U.S. troops? That is basic information and it is news worthy. Why doesn't the media report the news of the day?

They don't report it because facts on the ground in Iraq run contrary to the Bush administration's rose colored view of the war. The media doesn't report bad news coming out of iraq unless they compelled to report such news. The threshold they have set is somebody we care about has to die.

If an attack only results in a few GIs getting wounded it rarely makes the news, even on page 14. If Iraqis on our side are killed that might make the news if it meets some other threshold -- say at least 5 killed in a bunch. And if we kill any Iraqis, they are all bad guys. According to the Military summaries of the day, one would never know we killed any innocent civilians -- it is as if there was no such thing.

It is like being in Russia in 1950.

[quaoar]

30. My point was

That there is basic reporting of what is going on on the ground in Iraq. You just have to hunt for it.
Plus, the reporting has tailed off in large part because Iraq has turned into some sort of Mad Max hell on Earth where most reporters stay in the Green Zone -- afraid to venture out -- and depend on locals to relay them information.

[hansolsen]

32. I agree with that. N/T

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. It was just a matter of time before they tried this

Apparently these bases a shelled all the time, but it is just ones & twos. Eventually you would expect that they would go for the barrage.

[hadrons]

15. Is this 9 troops today???

[Aidoneus]

16. What were the other 4?

4 Marines were killed in al-Fallujah a day or two ago, could that be what you are thinking of there? There has been a steady stream of dead Marines coming from the province in the last couple weeks in particular, so it is easy to be confused.

There was a "vehicle accident" near ar-Ramadi today, with 1 death and a couple injured taken back to the nearby occupation forces' base. Haven't seen that mentioned, but if the 'accident' line is to be believed then that is technically not a result of combat.

[Aidoneus]

17. oh, I see (perhaps)

There was an earlier thread here about "4 dead" with a 5th unaccounted for, but that is speaking of the same event in Samarra`.

[hadrons]

25. Aidoneus, you're correct .....

the event in Samarra was first reported as 3 dead, then 4, and now 5 ... that's what threw me off

[Sagan]

19. CNN Headline News ticker said TWENTY killed!

Was this a mistake? The CNN ticker said that 20 American troops were killed in a Samarra mortar attack.

[Aidoneus]

20. that sounds quite high..

considering even early reports just suggested 4-5 killed (4 confirmed with a 5th "unaccounted for", now called killed) and 18-25 injured.. it could have been a mistake, the figure as 20 injured..?

[Disturbed]

22. Iraqi Puppet Govt.

I wonder what they will do if the Kurds announce secession? What would the US do if the Turks start attacking the Kurds? This situation is getting more complex.

How many dead US troops will it take in order for the majority of the American citizens to start shouting ENOUGH!!!?

[cthrumatrix]

26. does it matter if we are "in charge or them"...the losses are terrible....

leave now.

[Aidoneus]

29. it would seem a 6th has died from this (?) + more

if I am interpreting this paragraph from CNN correctly--

The latest reported deaths include a U.S. soldier who died from wounds in fighting Thursday in Baghdad, an American soldier killed in a Samarra attack Wednesday and another who died in a nonbattle-related incident Thursday.

:shrug:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/09/iraq.main/index.html

Of note, the operation against the Samarra` "Iraqi National Guard" base mentioned here was 3-pronged--a car bomb preceeding the barrage, the mortar barrage itself, and the larger battle that followed (already described above; the car bomb mention was new to me). Updated tally's seem to be 10 dead and 40 wounded (6/4 US/Iraqis, about 40 others injured, 20 of them American), then at least 4 Iraqis were killed when a US helicopter fired missiles and destroyed a house. Can't find any reports of deaths from the battle that followed.

In other recent matters (while I'm looking at Nasr's reported, having not found anything from Thursday yet):--`Alawi's home & office in the "Green Zone" was fired on with mortars Wednesday, as was the US military base of al-Taji north of Baghdad; four wounded in the former, five the latter (Iraqi collaborators, that is, not any known US forces hurt in the 2 events). There was a substantial battle late Wednesday night/early yesterday morning at the international airport in the west of the capital, but no mention of casualties. This is in addition to street fighting all over the occupied capital; a US armoured vehicle was reported hit and damaged in Baghdad, but with 2 US injuries and no killed. Five occupation forces were injured in a Humvee knocked out by a landmine just outside the northern neighborhoods of al-Fallujah, as bomber jets and widespread "security sweeps" (kidnappings) terrorzed the same neighborhood throughout the day and night in their snipe hunt to "find Zarqawi".

That seems about it for now from Nasr.

Now from al-Jazeera. The Friday khutbah's all over the country seemed united in their "`Alawi is a fucking useless puppet" stance. It is nice how something can bring the Salafis, Hanafi, Sadrist, and Sufis together on a united platform. There was more heavy fighting in Samarra` today, with 2 Iraqis reported dead and one injured from US mortar rounds.

And according to al-Hayat by way of Prof.Cole, some 400 Iraqis have been killed and 1600 wounded since `Alawi was promoted to his role as Ultra Grand Puppet just a little over a week ago.

[Gloria]

31. Thread died this morning,but my neighbor's grandson was injured in the

Samarra attack. He actually was in charge of the motorized brigade. He is now numb on one side of his body and they may fly him to Germany. He graduated from West Point 2 years ago; he was in the class that Bush addressed, introducing his "preemption" strategy. Little did they know...
He was accepted into med school, but decided to defer so he could be medic and get some field experience. He wound up trained to run a Bradley, then was shoved over to the motorized brigade.

My neighbor showed me an email she got from his mother....he wants to go back to what's left of platoon, he wants to be with his buddies. But not in his condition....

[Aidoneus]

33. sorry to hear this, Gloria

he would have been better as a med, for even in a war-zone that is at least a constructive position.