Ralph Nader Calls Israel a "Puppeteer"

[Dardi]

This is interesting:

On Tuesday, as broadcast on the American cable network C-Span, independent presidential candidate and environmental crusader Ralph Nader said the following:

"What has been happening over the years is a predictable routine of foreign visitation from the head of the Israeli government. The Israeli puppeteer travels to Washington. The Israeli puppeteer meets with the puppet in the White House, and then moves down Pennsylvania Avenue, and meets with the puppets in Congress. And then takes back billions of taxpayer dollars. It is time for the Washington puppet show to be replaced by the Washington peace show."

The rest here:

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=64895

Edited to fix link.

[JohnLocke]

1. JohnLocke calls Ralph Nader "dumbass"

[Hornito]

2. Whoa Ralphie!! As much as I despise the man, he has his....

moments!

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

3. Sounds like the jerk is losing it even more...

Is he going to read from the "Protocol of the Elders of Zion" next?

[leesa]

77. Ya think?

[Moderator]

4. The link did not work

[struggle4progress]

11. Here's a link that contains similar text from 3 June

NATIONAL PRESS CLUB LUNCHEON WITH 2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE RALPH NADER MODERATOR: SHEILA CHERRY, NPC PRESIDENT LOCATION: NATIONAL PRESS CLUB BALLROOM, WASHINGTON, D.C.
Federal News Service
June 3, 2004

<snip>
On the Palestinian-Israeli, there needs to be a change of attitude in this city. This city is composed of people who know a lot about the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and they keep private their concerns, and they make these public statements that are like ditto statements. You know the pattern; many of you have seen it again and again.

A conflict that is eminently resolvable with U.S. leadership is constantly postponed because of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the cycle of violence that keeps getting more and more grievous. And if we don't break that cycle of violence, we will become continued prisoners of it, just as the Israelis and Palestinians are prisoners of the cycle of violence.

The Palestinian peace movement and the Israeli peace movement have been in close touch. The Israeli peace movement is deep, broad, distinguished; they put 120,000 people in a Tel Aviv square protesting the other day. They represent members of the Knesset, mayors, former military officers, intelligence officers, businesses, religious figures. They represent people who have turned B'Tselem into one of the most respected human rights investigative groups in the world. They represent Rabbis for Justice, they represent the refuseniks, now 1,300 Israeli reserve combat soldiers and officers who have refused to serve in the West Bank or Gaza. And to illustrate the point I'm about to make, in their famous proclamation, "The Courage to Refuse" -- these are the combatants' public letter -- they made the following statement, quote: "We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people." End quote. For this courage, some of them went to jail. Others are involved in the Israeli peace movement. They are almost never invited to meet members of Congress, and most certainly never invited to meet anybody in the administration. And those of you who are interested in the complete statement, the website is seruv.org.il .

This used to be a localized conflict. Then it began to affect the Middle East, and now it's affecting much of the world. Whether by pretext or excuse, on behalf of the Palestinian and Israel people, they deserve better, they deserve better leadership, and our government deserves to stand up and think for itself.

<snip>
http://www.knowledgeplex.org/news/28624.html


"Israeli puppeteer" language follows immediately afterwards; perhaps best if others read it all. My natural reaction to the top of this thread, of course, was "Would you please jam a sock in it, Ralph?" But after reading the Press Club talk to provide context, I believe it chiefly shows that RN has a tin ear and is simply oblivious to potential anti-semitic interpretations of sentences like those quoted by the original poster. This means that he isn't at all ready for prime time (which everybody already knew) and that he really ought to control his rhetoric more tightly if he intends to continue playing in the limelight; I don't think it shows much else.

[struggle4progress]

20. Correct refusenik website address appears to be

http://seruv.org/english/default.asp

(not seruv.org.il )

[daleo]

24. This all seems eminently reasonable

Unless a person is very locked into supporting one side or the other.

[Zerex71]

33. Criticizing a government's policies is not anti-Semitism.

[kiahzero]

45. Nader didn't "criticize a government's policies"

He argued that Jews were running the government, a traditional anti-Semitic argument.

[struggle4progress]

50. The original link provides ONE SINGLE paragraph, extracted

from a speech RN gave, which is perhaps immediately suggests nonkosher intent. One of my comments in this thread asks if anyone has a link to the whole speech; nobody has bothered to respond.

I found similar language in another speech RN gave (in early June at the Press Club) and argue that perhaps the Press Club speech might serve as a surrogate. In the Press Club speech, RN carefully distinguishes between the Israeli peace movement and the Israeli government and complains that the US has apparently abandoned efforts to broker peace in the conflict. He further apparently complains that the Washington establishment ignores its substantial knowledge of affairs in the Middle East and chooses instead to simply cooperate with the Israeli government, ignoring in this way a popular will for peace expressed by both Israeli and Palestinian activists.

It is simply dishonest to claim that RN says "Jews were running the government," since in fact the word "Jews" appears nowhere in the Press Club speech.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. Your facts are wrong

he said "the head of the Israeli government" was the puppeteer, not "Jews". Go back and read the quote again. Criticising an individual is not anti-semitic.

[Dardi]

12. Updated it

Sorry about that.

[West Coast Democrat]

5. Why doesn't Nader pick Buchanan as his VP running mate?

Makes sense, since only conservatives are backing Nader this year.

[Dardi]

25. Speaking of which

I wonder how Camejo is enjoying the ride so far.

[Fenris]

6. Methinks that M. Nader is about to get pinned with the pale-blue "A".

Many would interpret his remarks as an allusion to a Zionist conspiracy.

[sui generis]

7. I agree with that assessment

although I'm not giving any extra points to Nader, I do think that Israel has had their hand so far up Bush's ass he can't swallow without getting a hangnail.

As a half-Jew I can say that I disagree with bad Israeli public policy and worse American foreign policy on this issue. I wouldn't put it past the Mossad to have freshly made-up child-porn files on anyone that they need to squeeze in our administration, because our support of that particular government has been so inexplicable and irrational. If the Israelis are sitting on a powder keg, it's one of their creation, and they keep working at making it worse.

It is unfortunate that there are good, peaceful people there of many faiths who must live with the consequences of Sharon's policies.

[Jacobin]

8. A lot of what he says is true

That is an obvious piece of truth, which mainstream politicians cannot utter.

However, he needs to go away so we can get rid of Bush*.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

9. Even a busted clock is right at least twice a day...

Ralph has lot it completely. I think his ego exploded.

That being said, he's very right about the above statement. I'm sick and tired of our foreign policy being dictated to protect a sh*tty little piece of land in the Middle East. Israel is quite capable of kicking ass themselves and DO NOT need our taxpayers money to aid in the process.

JB

[leesa]

78. So true. Israel is apparently digging it's own grave with bad behavior.

I hope their resistance can thrive. It had it's promise at one time.

[Jim Sagle]

10. Nader ain't nuthin' but Nazi filth. Fuck'm.

[Forkboy]

13. Yeah,he's a nazi

Like anyone who criticizes Israel.

[Jim Sagle]

14. No, like anyone who says Israel is all-powerful.

See F 9/11 and get back to me.

[The Stranger]

17. Yes, interesting how Michael Moore's movie failed to utter "Neocon" even

once, focusing solely and exclusively on the Saudi Arabs and indirectly exculpating PNAC and company. The driving force behind the Iraq war was whitewashed, and the silence, Mr. Moore, the silence is deafening.

Otherwise, just ignore Ralph Nader. He'll go away and resume his role as a consumer activist given time and enough ignoring.

[The Magistrate]

21. In Other Words, Sir

Mr. Moore is simply one more tool of the Conspiracy, eh?

"There is a Hidden Hand in the affairs of the world."

[Dardi]

23. Yes, clearly

Mr. Moore is an Israeli operative working to get the Saudi puppet out of power ... why didn't I see it before?

[The Stranger]

31. Mr. Magistrate, ("Sir"), where have you been all this time?

Interesting that the Michael Moore's omission is used to exonerate the Neocons. Those are the words. Try to stick to them.

[The Magistrate]

35. Perhaps, Sir

Mr. Moore simply lacks your well-honed instinct fot the capillary in these matters. He may have considered the thing you find of such all-consuming importance to be peripheral; he may have felt the points he concentrated on would be of more value in propagandizing his intended audience. His purpose, after all, is to rouse in people a sense that they already agree with the view he presents, and a distaste for Saudi Arabia is pretty widespread among the people, even on the rightward portions of the political spectrum. Getting people to view the criminals of the '00 Coup as tools of Arab royals who hate the West and the United States with a passion will pay better at the polls, and is a far easier sell today, then limning the same events as issuing from some policy paper with a "suspiciously large number of Jews" among its signatories....

[geek tragedy]

39. Not to mention that

making Bush seem at once the tool of the Saudis and the Israelis would provoke severe cognitive dissonance.

The basic point that it was Saudis on those planes, and that AQ (for those of us silly sheep who believe in it)was funded and founded by a rich Saud is something that Moore can sink his teeth into.

Moore is also not an Israel-basher, as hard as it is to believe.

[Classical_Liberal]

44. He didn't mention the neocons

but he did disguss specific neocons. No he ain't covering them up at all.

[geek tragedy]

48. I'm sure Paul Wolfowitz (and his comb) are glad

Moore didn't pick on Neocons.

[The Stranger]

60. Try these for something perhaps more substantive than personal grooming.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

Both viewable as streaming video online.

[geek tragedy]

61. If it was appearing on something as bland as PBS

it didn't need Michael Moore to spread the word.

The misdeeds of the Neocons are well-known.

[The Magistrate]

80. Why Should He Mention Them, Ma'am?

They are your hobby-horse, and the hobby-horse of a very small number of people. Mr. Moore is aiming to propagandize a broad audience. Therefore it will hardly suit his purpose to veer off into arcane matters of position papers, and present the U.S. government as the puppet of Israel, dear as that view may be to some. That would rouse the greater part of his intended audience to angry disagreement with what he presented, rather than make its members feel that what Mr. Moore has presented is what they really thought all along, which is the aim of the exercise of constructing fine propaganda. Hard as it is for some to accept, in the U.S. it is only in radical and racialist circles that affiliation with Israel is sure to rouse feeling that that is a bad thing in the audience.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[Jim Sagle]

32. The Jooooooos are coming! Mooooooooo!!!!!!!

[Forkboy]

28. I saw it,thanks

Have I ever said Israel is "all powerful" Jim? Why,that would be as stupid and kneejerk as calling Nader a Nazi :crazy:

[mitchtv]

29. Isreal has WMD's let's get'm

WMD, WMD,WMD, WMD,

[geek tragedy]

19. A Nazi? A crank and egomaniacal sellout, but not a Nazi

He's pandering to the America Firsters/Buchananites. But calling him a Nazi is just absurd.

[Classical_Liberal]

46. The America Firsters hate immigrants.

Ralph doesn't, though for all his excellant analysis, he doesn't have a clue as to how to win an election and not become a spoiler. He is really speaking to those of us who support the peace process. The old Jimmy Carter wing of the democratic party. I simply hate this tendency many pro-settler types have to try and rewrite History.

[geek tragedy]

47. Check out his interview with Patty Patty Buch Buch

He gives the old "America is full--no more immigrants" line.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. When Nader bemoans the loss of white culture maybe I'll take you seriously

as it was all he did was observe the tendency of employers to use immigrants to depress wages, and call for immigration limits. I don't know what the answer is to the problem but I myself have seen employers use immigrants as scab labor against employees trying to start a union. The employees that were trying to start the union were immigrants themselves, mostly mexicans, though they were more settled and secure and had been here more than 5 yrs. The Salvadorans that replaced them were imported by the grocery store chain directly from El Savador. Consequently these Mexicans lost their jobs and were unable to improve their wages or their prospects in life. Does that make sense? Do you have a fucking answer for the problem? America is suppose to be the land of opportunity, but if people can't hope for better prospects in life, that all goes out he window.

[geek tragedy]

52. You should read more closely before getting snotty

<snip>
PB: The U.S. population now—primarily due to immigrants and their children coming in—is estimated to grow to over 400 million by mid-century. Would that have an adverse impact on the environment?

RN: We don’t have the absorptive capacity for that many people. Over 32 million came in, in the ’90s, which is the highest in American history.
<snip>
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_06_21/cover.html

[struggle4progress]

57. ???

PB: Should illegal aliens be entitled to social-welfare benefits, even though they are not citizens and broke into the country?

RN: I think they should be given all the fair-labor standards and all the rights and benefits of American workers, and if this country doesn’t like that, maybe they will do something about the immigration laws.

PB: Should they be entitled to get driver’s licenses?

RN: Yes, in order to reduce hazards on the highway. If you have people who are driving illegally, there are going to be more crashes, and more people are going to be killed.

[goforit]

75. Hey ...I don't like Nader either....But Cheney/Bush is the nazi-fascist!!!

Ahhhhhh......I see what side of the fence you're on.

Mirrors are great for image problems.

[struggle4progress]

15. Have a link to his full speech to the Council for the National Interest?

Is the speech substantially the same as his 3 June speech to the National Press Club?

[dolstein]

16. I also hear he "urged" Sharon to try a homeopathic dandruff remedy

NT

[struggle4progress]

18. Whoa, dude! Like, that really is SO shocking! eom

[geek tragedy]

22. The bigger scandal is that he called Saddam an anti-Communist dictator

Hello, Ralph. How do you think all of those Soviet tanks and weapons systems got there?

Not leadership material.

[daleo]

26. How did Saddam ever get American weapons and intelligence?

I thought he was anti-American, thus the need to invade.

[struggle4progress]

27. Omigosh. SH couldn't have been playing two sides against each other, ...

could he?

[daleo]

30. Inconceivable

That would make him a hypocrite and a liar. National leaders just don't do things like that. Do they?

[geek tragedy]

37. He was never *anti-Communist*

He was always a client of the Soviet Union. They provided far more weapons and political support to him than did the US.

He was anti-Iranian, and that was why the US supported him during the 80's. But he was never hostile to the interests of the Soviet Union.

To call him anti-Communist is simple factual error, and demonstrates a complete lack of familiarity with Saddam and his relationship with the Soviets.

[daleo]

41. Granted, he was probably never anti-communist

But he wasn't pro-communist either. I suspect he was primarily pro-Saddam.

Your post did imply that possessing Soviet weapons was somehow significant as to his feelings about the Soviets or communism in general (you may not have meant that explicitly, but the post did tie the two ideas together). I would say he used who he could, when he could. I think that went on a lot during the cold war.

[geek tragedy]

42. He wasn't a Communist

But he certainly was willing to do business with them, and they had a pragmatic yet testy relationship.

I'm sure Saddam liquidated Communist dissenters, but globabally he tilted a little more to Moscow than Washington.

Nader makes him sound like Marcos or Suharto.

[daleo]

43. Agreed, Saddam may have trusted Moscow over Washington

Considering who has him in jail now, his instincts turned out to have been correct. I don't doubt that Nader was either exaggerating for effect, or didn't pay a lot of attention to this kind of geo-politics at the time and thus may have been mistaken in his contention.

[geek tragedy]

59. His instincts were actually incorrect, arguably

He turned to the Soviets for protection. If he had sucked up to Uncle Sam and offered unlimited, cheap petroleum, he'd probably still be in power.

[sangh0]

73. Saddam was a Stalinist

His govt provided cheap electricity, gas, food, and most of the jobs. He may not have been a card-carrying Marxist, but he sure wasn't a capitalist

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. He wasn't anti-communist - he just killed them???

"The fall of Saddam Hussein saw the Iraqi Communist Party (ICP) re-emerge after being banned for 35 years."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/post_saddam_iraq/html/secgroups_communist_party.stm

"The CIA quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraqi communists, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former US intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam Hussein, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/how_the_cia_found_and_groomed_saddam.html

Sounds pretty anti-communist to me.

[geek tragedy]

58. Internally he was anti-everyone-

Globally, he tilted towards the Soviet Union and tended to fall within their sphere of influence. The Communists in Iraq, like all domestic opponents, got massacred. But, that didn't stop him from being strategically aligned with the USSR.


So, in terms of the Cold War, he was not anti-Communist.

[SOS]

63. No USSR alliance since 1978

"In foreign affairs, Saddam sought to have Iraq play a leading role in the Middle East. Iraq signed an aid pact with the Soviet Union in 1972, and arms were sent along with several thousand advisers. However, the 1978 the executions of Iraqi Communists and a shift of trade toward the West strained Iraqi relations with the Soviet Union, which took on a more Western orientation from then until the Gulf War in 1991."

[geek tragedy]

67. He always went back to the Soviets, though

Notably, his shift towards the west was mainly towards France. So much so, that it led to his best friend there being nicknamed "Chiraq."

[struggle4progress]

69. Saddam key in early CIA plot

By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
Published 4/10/2003 7:30 PM

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.
<snip>
http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r

[keithyboy]

34. I still don't like Nader, even when speaking the truth.

But this truth is going to nail him. You are free to speak your mind in the US unless it's speech against Israel. Watch as AIPAC McKinneyizes him.

[dand]

36. Ralph is right.

The Sharon brigade never stops spouting bullshit, Wolfowitz, Pearl, Adleman, Safire, and the various and sundry politicians purchased with the billions in aid that we send, making the world safe for Israel, even if it takes the last drop of American blood and the last dollar in our treasury.

[notadmblnd]

38. even a broken clock is

right twice a day.

[MrSlayer]

40. He's right about this but still a douchebag. n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

51. Its fairly easy to maintain true and puristic perspectives ...

no compromises! But only when you don't have to worry about getting the next pay check. Nader, Chompsky and Zinn are far to ozone intelligent, purist and separated from real people struggling to survive in the "here and now."

Yes, I admire Nader's acomplishments but the man is doing both a disservice to himself and all of us who respect him by running. Dammit the right wingers are raising money for him and trying to get him on the ballot in swing states. It that's not a wake up call - "Maybe I may be hurting progressives." I don't know what is ... although I'm constantly pinching myself, I regret he does not have the humbleness to see the realization of long run goals or the big picture benefits for *all* of America by him bowing out ... allowing Kerry to win.

[NNN0LHI]

54. Hows come none of the Nader apologists here will comment on this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x657367

Group: Bush allies illegally helping Nader in Oregon


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/30/bush.nader/

Complaint filed with Federal Election Commission
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 Posted: 8:19 PM EDT (0019 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Efforts by two conservative groups to help President Bush by getting independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader on the ballot in the key battleground state of Oregon prompted a complaint to the Federal Election Commission Wednesday by a liberal watchdog group.

[keithyboy]

56. Come on, you know who they are and how they helped Bush...

I know this must be a 'tongue-in-cheek' comment, right?

[truthspeaker]

62. Well he's right about this one

Instead of running for president, he should write speeches for Kerry.

[Dardi]

64. You think that a speech like this one would help Kerry?

Seriously?

[struggle4progress]

65. How could anyone tell without looking at the whole speech?

Is there a link to the full text available anywhere?

[truthspeaker]

71. telling the truth would hurt Kerry? Please explain.

[Dardi]

72. Whether it's the truth or not

Claiming that a foreign government, be it Israel or Saudi Arabia or Japan or any government, pulls the strings in Washington would effectively end Kerry's campaign. Saying it about Israel would end it emphatically since it would be widely perceived as a rehashing of the old anti-Semitic "Jews control the government" libel. He'd get the Buchanan and David Duke vote, though.

[struggle4progress]

74. I agree. But the main point made by RN in the NPC speech ...

... is one which Kerry can use: BushCo has failed to use diplomacy to push peace in the region.

[Dardi]

83. That's a very different point

n/t.

[struggle4progress]

85. Can't tell what point Nader was making from a sentence ...

... or two out of context. Have you got a link to the entire text of the speech. Or must we be content with this silly surgery?

[The Sushi Bandit]

66. Ralph hits the nail on the head!! RIGHT ON!!

I am sick and tired of our tax dollars going to Israel!

It perpetuates the endless cycle of violence and retribution that has now washed up on our shores (world trade center)

[Ganja Ninja]

70. And the same goes for the Cuban exiles in this country.

Time to stop having a foreign policy by and for outsiders. We need to set policy based on what's best for Americans. Israel is not our fifty first state. We don't need to fall on our sword for them.

[Gyre]

76. Sorry, I agree

The circumstantial evidence of this relationship is overwhelming. All you need to see it is an objective lens (that would mean free of bias). The evidence is manifold and is readily apparent in the ease with which the White House communes with AIPAC, how often Bush bald-faced lies to provide some sort of spurious cover for Israel, as in the mantra, "Ariel Sharon is a man of peace." oft stated by the shrub, and the intertwining of our military services.

IMO, the tail (Israel), is wagging the dog (U.S.) harder than at any time since it's founding. The fact that the whelp/Bush is of low intelligence and doesn't even know when he's being dissed (by Sharon), as well as AIPAC's stranglehold on Congress has set this unhealthy relationship up.

This country has been brainwashed over the last 4 decades to associate the welfare of Israel with the welfare of the U.S.. If you don't believe me give yourself a little test. Ask yourself if you think it's in any way treasonous to say something negative, though truthful about Israel. Now reflect on your feelings about that and remember folks, you're American taxpayers forking out billions a year in cash and military hardware so support a foreign government.

Gyre

[No Passaran]

79. As much as I hate that he's running for President

his statements have impressed me and my friends.

[Liberal Classic]

81. I can't help but think of Larry Niven's Pierson's Puppeteers

So Sharon is Hindmost?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

84. Nader speaks the truth on the subject and is despised

while Kerry, who panders and assumes right-wing positions is rallied around?

Who does it serve to marginalize those with Nader's positions while forcing you to ignore Kerry's?

Do the issues count for anything? And what if Kerry's issues are closer to Bush?

[Dardi]

86. Are you suggesting that we not Rally around Kerry

and support Nader's candidacy? I see a lot of question marks at the end of your sentences. How about an affirmative declatetion of what you propose DUers should do? What if Kerry is close to Bush on some issues; do you propose not voting for him?

[The Zanti Regent]

87. Nader shows his true colors

and it proves he's a NATIONAL Socialist appealing to brown shirts!