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gp Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:54 AM
Original message
IRAN massing troops on IRAQ border

Iran massing troops on Iraq border

Beirut, Lebanon, Jun. 15 (UPI) -- Iran reportedly is readying troops to move into Iraq if U.S. troops pull out, leaving a security vacuum.

The Saudi daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat, monitored in Beirut, reports Iran has massed four battalions at the border.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040615-055649-4707r.htm
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Toilet paper has more credibility ...
than a moonie paper.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. It's a UPI wire story. (n/t)
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DavidFL Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Moon owns UPI (n/m)
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh my, this is going to be interesting
Granted, it's the Washington Times but just the same...
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. Everything old is new again.....
the human race has become completely redundant....
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. Ah, ... the Saudi paper reports ...
"IF American troops withdraw ..." (fat chance).

BANDAR on the run ...
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is bad . . .
If Iran takes power in Iraq you can definately expect the shit to hit the fan in the Middle East.

Next stop? Saudi Arabia.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. It is bad if it is true....it isn't true though.
This story can easily be discounted by using satilite images.
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. Owner of Washington Times declares himself to be surrogate of Jesus...
say no more.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The owner
claims that he was sent to clean up Jesus' mess.
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Funny....I would have thought that a madman wearing a gown...
and a funny looking crown would have been sent to clean up Dubya's mess.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Rev. "I'm too stupid to be real" Moon
says that Jesus actually worships him! Says Jesus bows before the Rev. AND MRS. Moon! Yeah, those Iranian deathstar troopers are already in your backyard, better vote Bush.
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. Chicken Little Repukes Scream "We must pre-emptively attack
Iran next!! Hurry, before they kill us all!"

idiots..
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ahhh...Ahhhhhhhh...Ahhhhhhh
Achoobullshit.

Gezundheit.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Ahhh...Ahhhhhhhh...Ahhhhhhh
Achoobullshit.

Gezundheit.
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Abbalon Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. Heheheeee
Four Battalions won't hardly be enough.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
12. Don't tell me the are using the WTimes to run this up the flagpole
We need to be working with Iran to settle IRaq down AND to get access into their nuke sites not drumming up an attack.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. Who's "We?"
YOU and I might need to be doing that. Bush needs to be hoping someone will invade somebody so he can act like a warrior king. This is perfect for him, if true. Imagine his arousal at getting to invade Iraq next. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, and practically Pakistan. And if Saudi Arabia erupts in civil war (as the media is claiming they are doing)...

Look at a map. Bush is intent on conquering the world. If he can control the Middle East, he can shut down China and Europe any time he wants. And if Iran did invade Iraq, we might have a serious war, not one of these little video game genocidal campaigns going on.

That's how Hitler would do it. His first few campaigns were nothing, too.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
13. I think we should let Isreal take this one.
nt
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slipperduke Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. Al-Sharq al-Awsat quoted "reliable Iraqi sources"
So that's alright then, they've never let us down.

I'm a little dubious about this one. Mind you, if you like a laugh and your faith in human nature is completely spent, head over to FR and see their reactions. They want to break out the nukes in advance. Sheesh.....
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Welcome to DU!
I never go to Freeptown, nothing there worth my time. Morans and 'tards should be pitied, but never validated. They are simply too stupid to worry about - oh and they're limp-wristed, cowards. Still pity is almost a waste...
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slipperduke Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I like the place, strangely.
I've always loved any kind of political discourse, right or left and it's certainly not short of that.

Mind you, I posted a couple of times and didn't get particularly pleasant responses until I altered my persona significantly to the right. Very scary bunch, but compelling. Kind of like slowing down to look at a car wreck.

Nuke Iran? I love that leap of logic!

Thank God they're not running the world, eh? .......what's that?


Oh shit....

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
56. Yeah
Just what is a credible Iraqi source, exactly?
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
18. MASSING four battalions? That headline writer could pen Shrub's speeches.
Hope they mass lots of food and water, if they are waiting for US troops to leave.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. Yeah, a few more platoons and they should be ready to invade.
I expect the coalition troops would be almost grateful to have
a conventional adversary they could just blow the hell up.

Moon could at least get some propagandists who have a clue to
write this shit.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. Watch what
the more credible news sources do with this story....especialy TV news.....CBS knows it has been lied to in the past and may try to verify/debunk this story.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
21. 4 battalions is hardly "massing", even if this is true
And anyway, after terrorizing and bombing Karbala` and Annajaf for months as the occupyers have, I wouldn't be surprised if many Iranians took it upon themselves to get involved, but I would be quite surprised if the government itself would do anything like that.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. Yeah, what is that, about 3,000 guys?
Who knows, maybe they're just running some exercise.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. if even that..
I'm not familiar enough with the Islamic Iranian Ground Forces or Pasdaran divisions to know what exact battalion sizes are, but I can't imagine that this would be any more than 2,000-2,500 fighters anyway. If this is even true, that sounds more like a standard deployment level for the border. They've typically kept around 70-80% of their army on the western areas anyway, I can't imagine how 4 battalions would even be noticed except as a typical piece of propaganda from a typically desperate source.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
22. Preparing the October Surprise? nt
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. did Bill Gertz ghost-write this article?
Edited on Tue Jun-15-04 08:40 AM by UpInArms
he's the lead propagandist at the Moonie Times.

Didn't see his by-line, but ....

(edited to add info)

http://www.regnery.com/authors/bio_billgertz.html

Bill Gertz

Author of

Breakdown: How America's Intelligence Failures Led to September 11

The China Threat

Betrayal: How the Clinton Administration Undermined American Security

excerpt:

Bill has broken a number of stories with international implications. As former CIA Director R. James Woolsey put it, “When I was DCI Bill used to drive me crazy because I couldn’t figure out where the leaks were coming from. Now that I’ve been outside for two years, I read him religiously to find out what’s going on.” Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson told the author: “We talk about your stories at Cabinet meetings.” And White House spokesman Michael McCurry once called the author “a straight shooter” who has written “more interesting reporting on national security than anybody on the beat.” Radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh also has described Bill as “one of the best national security reporters in the country” who has produced more scoops exposing the Clinton administration’s foreign and defense policy failures than any other reporter.

<snip>

Bill has written numerous articles for journals and magazines, including National Review, The Weekly Standard, and Air Force Magazine. He has lectured on defense, national security, and media issues at the Defense Department’s National Security Leadership Program, Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, the FBI National Academy in Quantico, Virginia, the National Defense University in Washington, DC, and at the CIA in Virginia.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
24. Oh really!
Doesn't this seem a little far out? Drum roll please -
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hadrons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. when did Colin Bowell freelance as a writer???
just rehashing his Iraq massing troops on Saudi border story

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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. Haven't we heard this lie before??
I wish they would get a new edition of the play-book already.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
29. The Rev. Moon Daily. By the way, 4 battalions is hardly "massing".
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jukes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
31. four battalions
is a light brigade. figure 1700 to 2000 troops, not counting support personnel, & depending, o/c, on their TO&E. 3000 tops.

that's infantry estimates, btw. i know little of armor units. most decent size american cities have more cops than that on the street, not including surrounding munies.

even if true, who cd possibly care?

:shrug:


:puffpiece:
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Mithras61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Let's see. According to the CIA Factbook...
The Iran/Iraq border is 1,458 km long. That means that Iran with your numbers could put approximately one man every 1/2 km along that border with this number of troops.


Golly, that's almost scary, huh? :eyes:
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. How to count this please?
Squad is like 8-10 troops
Platoon is two or more squads (16 - 40?)
Company is two or three platoons (32 - 120?)
Battalion is three or more companies (96 - 600?)
Plus platoon, company and battalion headquarters. (120 - 700?)

Are there clearer definitions that don't have so many 'or's and 'or more's in them? thanks :-)
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Mithras61 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. In my personal experience...
a squad is 10 persons. A platoon is 4 to 5 squads. A company is 4 to 5 platoons, or about 250 persons (HQ company is usually a little smaller at around 180-200 people). A battalion is 3 fighting companies and one HQ company (at least in Field Artillery), or about 800 persons. A brigade is usually 2 or 3 battalions, depending on the specialty (field artillery, armor, infantry, etc.).

At any rate, we aren't talking more than a couple thousand fighting troops, and with a border close to 1500km, that isn't very many, and we've been doing a bit of sabre rattling about Iran needing to stop the influx of Al Quaeda into Iraq...
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Has changed over the years....
Edited on Tue Jun-15-04 10:06 PM by happyslug
Prior to WWI Armies tended to follow the patterns set down during the Middle ages, a Company of 100 men (A company was called a "Troop" if Calvary formation, A "Battery" if Artillery). A regiment was made up of 10 companies (i.e. 1000 men) with the Regiment capable of being reduced into three battalions depending on tactical deployment.

An example of this division is Custer's deployment at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Custer divided his Regiment into three battalions, one of Five Troops under his own command, Major Reno had three Troops with Major Benteen the remaining two troops with the pack mules.

Now Each Troop (i.e. Calvary Company) under Custer's Command had only 66 men in it instead of the "Normal" deployment of 100. This was due to budget constraints. After his defeat each company of the US Army was increased to 100 Officers and Men (and reduced back to 66 men whenever the Indians were back on the reservation within a year of Custer's defeat).

Thus under Custer's Command was no more than 330 (Actual losses were 210 Officers and men for these Units were not even up to their Official Strength). For more on the Battle see http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/custer.htm

This show you one of the problems when looking at unit "size". People come and go in a Military unit, people get sick, people die. Thus you will normally see numbers that reflect what the unit is suppose to have, or a number what the unit tended to have, instead of any exact number (Which would only exist for the moment in unit history that count was taken). Thus each of those units were to have 66 men, their averaged just over 40 at the time of the battle. Even today it is NOT unusual for unit to be below strength (and some units may be above strength, for example during the Cold War it was not uncommon for US Units in Germany to have 13-14 men in a squad that was only to have 12 members. These extras were kept in the unit to cover the losses a unit would incur if combat was incurred, thus keeping closer to the ideal size for a longer period than if you just had the "Correct" number in the unit).

This is further complicated by some countries calling units different names. For Example the Traditional pre-WWI US Regiment (which I have been using as an example) followed French and German Military Traditions as to what was a regiment. A British Regiment was and is much smaller, in fact a US "Battalion" would be the size of a British "Regiment" and a US "Regiment" would equal a British "Brigade".

Another factor is a Unit "Name" may change over time. For Example during the US Civil War, a "Brigade" could consist of anywhere from Two to Five Regiments, but the Brigade strength was around 2000 men. The reason for this is during the Civil War the US refused to "replaced men on the line". i.e. if a unit had a casualty, no one replaced him except from within the same regiment. Thus a Regiment would start at 1000 men (Two Regiments per Brigade) but slowly go down in strength till it fell below 400 men (Where it was five Regiments per Brigade). Thus during the Civil War a "Brigade" consisted of 2000 men of 2-5 Regiments (which each had ten companies so you could have companies of less than 40 men).

During WWI General Pershing thought the Divisional size of the English and French were two small at 15,000 per Division. Pershing came up with the "Square Division" of WWI (And the standard Division in the US till the start of WWII). A "Square Division" consisted of four regiments organized into two Brigades. Total number in the Division, 25,000 men. The British Division of WWI consisted of Three Brigades of Three Regiments per Brigade (Remember US Battalion Equal British Regiment etc).

Just before WWII the US changed its Divisional formation once again. Dropping the Brigade and adopting the "Triangle Division" of three Regimental Combat Groups (Which consisted of one Regiment of three Battalions each). The Regimental Combat teams came out of the experience of the Tank Divisions. It was found greater flexibility was important so each regiment had been divided into three Battalions but each battalion was trained to operate as independent of its regiment. Thus while a Regimental Combat Teams (RCT) generally would consist of all three Battalions of that Regiment, the Regimental Combat Team (RCT) could also be in command of Battalions NOT of the same Regiment.

During the 1950s the US experimented with Different size units to better survive a nuclear war, these all tended to fail in comparison to the earlier Triangular Division so in 1964 in was reinvented as the "ROAD" Division (I forget what ROAD stood for but it is unimportant for this discussion). The major difference between the WWII Triangle Division and the 1964 ROAD Division was the name "Regimental Combat Team" was dropped and the name "Brigade" Adopted.

Thus the Brigade consisted of 2000 men in 2-5 Regiments in 1865, In 1918 a "Brigade" Consisted of two Regiments of three Battalions each (Six Battalions total), and today a Brigade contains about three Battalions (With the term Regiment gone except as part of each Battalions name or as an independent Regiment).

Now this is further complicated by the affects of WWI in increasing the number of personal at each level of a unit. Early on in WWI it was found that the traditional numbers and organization was no longer sufficient for the Battlefield. The Machine Gun came to dominate the Battlefield, and the Infantry "Section" changed from being a straight Rifle Grouping to a unit design to protect and support the Section's Machine Gun. To counteract the machine gun, various efforts were made in ways to throw grenades further and further. These involved into the modern Infantry Mortar by 1916.

In addition to the introduction of the machine gun and Mortar into the Infantry Company, a more rigid command structure was introduced. The Battalion became a "real" unit instead of a unit made up based on the tactical decision of the Regimental Commander. The same happened to the Platoon which in American, French and German tradition was used as an subdivision of a Company used on an ad hoc basis (in the British usage Platoon and Company were interchangeable).

Thus by 1918 the typical western infantry "Section" was 8 men, formed into a Platoon (24 men plus headquarters of 6 total 30). Three Platoon to a Company with Headquarters of 10 with attached machine gun platoon and Mortar Platoon (Total of about 150 men). Three Companies to a Battalion with a "Heavy Weapons Company" (roughly 700 men). Three Battalion to a regiment (about 3000 men). In the US Service two regiments to a Brigade (7000 men). Two Brigades to a Division (14,000 men in the Infantry Brigades with 9000 in Support functions total 25,000 men.

In non-US Divisions it was three regiments to a Division, 9000 men in the Infantry Division, 6000 in support functions.

When the US adopted the Triangle Division during WWII, it also decided that the "Section" was two small and replaced it with the infantry "Squad" of 12 men. Three Squads to the Platoon with Headquarter (total 42 men), Three Platoon with Heavy Weapons Platoon to a Company (180 men). Three Companies to a Battalion (with a Heavy Weapons Company of 250 men, total for Battalion 800 men).

Thus do to the addition of weapons into the Squad, Platoon and Company during WWI, each increased in size from its pre-WWI size (almost doubling in size in most cases).

Now the squad has also changed since WWII. In leg units it tends to be 12 men, but in armored units it tend to be the number of people that can fit into a Armoued Infrantry Combat Vehcile (In the case of the M2 Bradly 9 men, in case of the Soviet BMP 7 men).

Notice I used the term "Western Armies". The above tend to be true of non-Soviet trained armies. During the Revolution the Red Army abolished all ranks. Commanders were referred to as "Comrade in Command of a Regiment", or "Comrade in command of a Company". Ranks were NOT re-introduced till 1943 where Stalin decided the problems of His Generals Not being Generals when it came to meetings with British and American Generals was worse than the Czarist idea of ranks.

One of the affect of this lack of ranks for 20 years was that the Soviets could form their units into functional size units without having to worry about the fact that a Company had to be commanded by a "Captain", a Regiments had to be Commanded by a "Colonel" etc. Also the fighting on the Eastern Front during both WWI and WWII was more mobile than the Western Front of 1914-1918 thus the greater flexibility of Smaller units was appreciated. Thus Soviet units tended to be 1/3 smaller than their Western units of the same name. One reason for this was the Soviets preferred to introduced the new weapons of the Heavy Machine Gun and Mortar as independent units instead of directly into the Infantry Company or Division. Thus a Soviet Infantry Regiment would be smaller than an American or German Regiment for the primary reason being that the German or American Regiment would have Heavy Mortars attached directly to the Regiment, while the Soviet Mortars would be in an independent formation that was attached as needed.

Thus the size of a unit depends on several factors including its history. Below are the best guess for the size of most units, but remember the above when using these numbers:

Section = 8 men
Squad = 12 men of two fire teams
Platoon = 42 men of Three Squads or Sections
Company = 180 men of Three Platoons
Battalion = 800 men of Three Companies
Regiment= 3000 men of Three Battalions
Brigade = 3000 men of Three Battalions
Division = 15000 men of Three Brigades or Regiments
Corp = 100,000 men of Three Divisions)
Army = 300,000 men of three Corps
Army Group = 1 million men of Three Armies
Front = Soviet name for Army Group.
Demi- = name used in front of one of the above that indicates a smaller than normal size for that unit. For example a Demi-Battalion may consist of to companies of 500 men instead of the normal 800 size units. Mostly used during the experiments of the 1950s.
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Thanks
So theres no simple answer, but at least the complicated answer makes sense now :)
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. This is all great and interesting,
You've given me a lot of info I never knew. But, it was chiefly about European and American forces...how are Iran's forces divided? Do they follow the American model exactly? Or the British model? Or the Soviet model?

I'd like to know more about Iran's military capabilities...what's their strength? What kinds of weapons do they have, and how many? What about planes? (I know they have at least a rudimentary air force.)

I'd like to know, because it does sound like it would be a serious war if we engaged with Iran.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. According to the Records I have read
Iran tends to follow US Patterns (This goes back to the days of the Shah). On the other hand it is common for US pattern Countries (Especially third world countries like Iran) to reduce the size of the support unit at the Divisional level. For Example the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN, the South Vietnamese Army) follow US patterns on Company and Battalion levels but they eliminated some of the Support elements (i.e. supply, engineering etc). This tended to make the ARVN Divisions smaller than even the Soviet Style Divisions (About 10,000 men compare to the 12,000 for a Soviet Division and 15,000 for an US Divisions).

The Reason for this was the ARVN units really did not expect to move far from their bases thus the Supply and Engineering units were not needed at DIVISIONAL Level (And was one of the reason South Vietnam fell so fast in 1975, these units did not have the needed Supply and Engineering units to fight a war of maneuver that the Vietcong and North Vietnamese entered into in 1975).

As to Iran please note the main MILITARY formation since the time of Napoleon has been the DIVISION, not the Regiment, Battalion, Company or even Brigade. The reason for this can be seen in the Division's Name i.e. It is a DIVISION OF THE ARMY. Literally Just before Napoleon the French had divided their army into little armies called Divisions. The reason for this was that it was found that the most an army could be was 50,000 men. At that level the 50,000 stressed out the resources of the area it was operating in AND stressed out the supply line to supply such an army. The French solution to this problem was to divide their army into mini-armies of 10,000 men (The Original Division Strength). Each Division had supply elements, support elements, Artillery Elements, Calvary Elements, engineering elements, in addition to Infantry units.

Units smaller than a Division do not have these other elements. Regiments, Battalions, Companies, Platoons, Squads tend to be of one type of soldier i.e. Infantry, Artillery, Calvary, Engineering, Supply, Support etc. It is in the Division that these units come together to work together as a mini-army able to fight.

Now Divisions are formed in Corps (Which is derived from the French word for "Body" for the original name for a Corp was "Corp de Armee" i.e. "The Body of the Army". A Corp would be consist of three Divisions (Sometime more sometime less) and additional supply and support units (including Heavy and/or Siege Artillery). In the 1800 the units attached to the Corp would be less than the size of a Division (and the Corp was the more important unit than the Division) but by the time of WWI The Division was the more important unit with the Corp actually growing larger with the increases caused by addition of Heavier Artillery Pieces (And Missiles after WWII), aircraft (and Helicopters after WWII) and increase medical care in the form of MASH units etc (and lets us not forget repair facilities for Vehicles that can not be done at lower levels).

Since WWII an Army Corp generally consist of three Divisions (Roughly 45,000 men in three Divisions of 15,000 men each) AND Corp level support elements of Roughly one man per man in the Divisions. What I mean by that if when the Divisions total 45,000, the Corp tend to have another 45,000 in various units to support those Divisions.

Now you may ask why have I gone through the above? The reason is you do NOT move Battalions, you do not move Companies YOU MOVE DIVISIONS OR CORPS. It is only at the Divisional Level do you have a unit capable of fighting AND PROVIDING ITS OUR SUPPORT. Thus It is DIVISIONS that are moved. Now the actual fighting is done by Squads, Platoons and Companies but it is the Division that provides artillery support to these units, supplies food and Ammunition, Supplies Medical Care and even Helicopter support (Close Air Support tend to be a Corp Level Function).

Thus a division is made of 9 Battalions (Formed in three Brigades) But A Division is something more than 9 Battalions. It can fight and support and supply those Battalions. Thus the Fact that someone moved nine Battalions someplace is meaningless. Nine Battalions can not fight alone. On the other hand a DIVISION (Which has Nine Battalions) is something else. It is to be watched for it can attack and support that attack.

Thus the report that 4 Battalions have been placed at the frontier means nothing. 4 Battalions without supplies and support can just watch the Frontier, they can not even really cross it without running into supply problems (Problems that the Division was designed to solve).

I will try to get more details on the Iranian Army, but to fully understand the significance (Or more precise, the lack of Significance) the movement of 4 Battalions means I why I wrote the above. If the Iranians had moved a DIVISION or even 1/2 of a Division of Four Battalions to the Frontier that would be something to watch, but not 4 battalions.

Please note some counties use the concept of "Reinforced Brigades and Reinforced Regiments" as opposed to Divisions. The US even has some of these. "Reinforced Regiments" is a Regiment (or Brigade) with the addition of Divisional level units attached to such units. Tend to be in areas where a full size Division would be to large. The classic example is the "Reinforced Marine Battalion". It is a Battalion (about 800 men) WITH Attached Artillery, Engineering and other Divisional level units attached to it (Bring the Reinforced Battalion up to almost 1500 men). The Marines do this do to the limitation imposed on the Marines given the limited amount of Amphibious Transport Vehicles. Please note even the Marines drop such "Reinforced" Units if they can get a Whole Division involved in the Situation.



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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Iranian Army Information 1987
Edited on Wed Jun-16-04 07:29 PM by happyslug
According to these sources the Iran follows US Patterns for Army Units and in addition had the following unit in 1987

3 mechanized divisions, each with three brigades,
The First Brigade in Each Division has three armored Battalions (With Tanks)
The Second and Third Brigades each has 3 “mechanized” Battalions; (With APCs)
7 infantry divisions (Nine Infantry Battalions in 3 Brigades);
1 Airborne brigade (Three Battalions)
1 Special Forces division composed of four brigades;
1 Air Support Command;

"and some independent armored brigades including infantry and a "coastal force." There was also in reserve the Qods battalion, composed of ex-servicemen.”

http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~ico/history/5natinoalsecurity.html

http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~ico/homepage/index.html

This looks like the US Division either under the 1964 ROAD concept or the more modern “Air-Land Battle” Concept (With more emphasis on Leg infantry than the US has under the “Air-Land Battle” Concept). Under both concepts Tanks and Armored Personal Carriers (APC) or Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicle (MICV) are mixed together. Each in their own Battalion (so to minimize repair parts for the Battalion) but able to call on each other for support. I.e. Tanks units can call on a Mechanized Infantry when such infantry support is needed and the Infantry can call on Tank support if tank support is needed. Except for the Soviet Union it is rare to have 100% Tank Division or 100% Mechanized Infantry Divison.

Definitions:

Armored Battalions - A Battalion of 3 Companies of tanks each tank in the US Army has 17 tanks (The Soviet and English Armies tend to have 10 tanks).

Mechanized Divisions - Units of Infantry transported in Armored Personal Carriers (APC) or Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicle (MICV) . Roughly 1 Squad per Vehicle, 3 Vehicles per Platoon, 10 Vehicles per Company.

Armored Personal Carriers (APC) - A Vehicle (Generally track but can be Wheeled) that is design to haul infantry inside its armored body. The M113 is an APC.

Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicle (MICV) Similar to a APC but with the capability of the Infantry to fight from inside the Vehicle. The M2 Bradley is a MICV, as is the Soviet BMP.

Note: I hesitate to evaluate the Special Forces Division based on the usage of the title “Division”. When it comes to Special Forces all types of names are used for units more to reflect the level of Command than the men involved. For example the Special Forces Division may be under a Lieutenant General (Who normally command a Division) but the total command may be only 1000 men. Each Special Forces “Brigade” may be under a Colonel or Brigadier General but only have 200 men. The reason for this is Special Forces Operations often has to be approved at a high level of Command. It is easier for a General to tell another General what his unit can and can not do than it is for a Lieutenant Colonel to tell a General what his unit can or can not do. Rank sees Rank Not the size of the unit under that rank.

The classic example of this was Jimmy Carter’s debacle in the Iranian Hostage Attempt. Various reason for the Failure has been given but the big underlaying problem was the Command of the Mission was under a Colonel not a General. A General could push his rank around the Pentagon to get what he needed to get the job done, but a Colonel had to obey what his senior commanders told him to do (and what he would get to do the job with). More than anything else it was this lack of stars on the Commanders Uniform that doomed the Hostage Rescue Attempt. A General could have forced the Pentagon to provide the needed extras to make sure the mission would succeed. A General would not have to rely on a Hanger Queen of a helicopter (One of the Helicopter in the Mission had been a hanger Queen for years, i.e. a Helicopter that the ground crew took parts off to keep other Helicopters running while waiting for needed parts. Like most Hanger Queens when actually used it crashed).

My point here is the designation of Special Forces units often reflect the rank of its commander NOT its size, and the rank of its Commander reflects what the military believes a Special Forces commander needs as his rank to get the needed respect and support needed to make sure that the Mission of the Special Forces is completed. Thus just by its name you can NOT determine how many men are in a “Special Force Division".

For more information see the Federation of American Scientists on US Army Organization:
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/index.html


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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Iranian Equipment
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 06:46 AM by mulethree
That FAS site, that Happyslug refers to for US army info, has info for the military equipment of many nations including Iran. It usually lumps 'rest of world' into one category and then seperated them by their flag.

Iranian flag looks like :



General Iran stuff - http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=161
Army equipment - http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/index.html
Rest of world - general - http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=325&projectId=22

Navy - http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/mideast/iran.htm

Globalsecurity has a section on Iran though most of it seems to have 1987 info and little on changes since then - except in regards to special weapons. But know that some of Iraq's air force flew to Iran - some pretty capable soviet-built stuff. They have pretty good relations with China, NK and Russia and some domestic weapons capabilities i.e. artillery.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/index.html
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Comment on FAS and Iran
The Military Equipment cited at the FAS Site is for what is produced in that Country NOT WHAT THAT COUNTRY HAS.

Iran had adopted the British Chieftain Tank during the 1970s with Ceramic Armor (The same type of Armor that is used on the M1 Tank). The British had invented this type of Armor but thought it to expensive for their version of the Chieftain Tank. Thus the British Chieftains did NOT have Ceramic armor while the Iranian Chieftain's did (Both version of the Chieftains used a RIFLED 120mm Gun compared to the 120mm Smooth bore Gun used in the M1 and German Leopard II Tanks).

With the Revolution imports of Western Tank ceased (Mostly British Chieftain Tanks) and since that time Iran has used what tanks they had (Including American M-60 and M48 Tanks along with the Chieftains) and T-55 tanks either captured from Iraq or imported from Russia (And upgraded to use American/British 105 mm Ammunition). I have also read reports of Soviet T-72 Tanks being used and produced by Iran but that may be the result of confusion caused by the Iranians calling their conversion of Captured T-55s, "T-72Z Safir-74".

I will try to get more details, but it looks like the Iranians have Converted one of their leg Infantry Division to an Armored Division between 1987 and 1997. Iran appears to have increased its Airborne Brigade to a Full Division AND made a Second Special Forces Division (Commando is just the British Name for Special Forces).
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. Propaganda buildup to attacking Iran?
BFEE needs a distraction desperately, considering recent polling results. The Reagasm is over, which just leaves:
- Ossama capture.
- Saddam trial.
- a fresh war.

That's all I can think of at the moment anyway.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Okay, I am reading up ;-)
http://www.mapinc.org/propaganda/propaganda/proptech.htm

PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES

"Propaganda Techniques" is based upon "Appendix I: PSYOP Techniques" from "Psychological Operations Field Manual No.33-1" published by Headquarters; Department of the Army, in Washington DC, on 31 August 1979
(snip)
SELF-EVIDENT TECHNIQUE

Appeal to Authority. Appeals to authority cite prominent figures to support a position idea, argument, or course of action.

Assertion. Assertions are positive statements presented as fact. They imply that what is stated is self-evident and needs no further proof. Assertions may or may not be true.

Bandwagon and Inevitable Victory. Bandwagon-and-inevitable-victory appeals attempt to persuade the target audience to take a course of action "everyone else is taking." "Join the crowd." This technique reinforces people's natural desire to be on the winning side. This technique is used to convince the audience that a program is an expression of an irresistible mass movement and that it is in their interest to join. "Inevitable victory" invites those not already on the bandwagon to join those already on the road to certain victory. Those already, or partially, on the bandwagon are reassured that staying aboard is the best course of action.

Obtain Disapproval. This technique is used to get the audience to disapprove an action or idea by suggesting the idea is popular with groups hated, feared, or held in contempt by the target audience. Thus, if a group which supports a policy is led to believe that undesirable, subversive, or contemptible people also support it, the members of the group might decide to change their position.

Glittering Generalities. Glittering generalities are intensely emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. Though the words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people, their connotation is always favorable: "The concepts and programs of the propagandist are always good, desirable, virtuous."
Generalities may gain or lose effectiveness with changes in conditions. They must, therefore, be responsive to current conditions. Phrases which called up pleasant associations at one time may evoke unpleasant or unfavorable connotations at another, particularly if their frame of reference has been altered.

Vagueness. Generalities are deliberately vague so that the audience may supply its own interpretations. The intention is to move the audience by use of undefined phrases, without analyzing their validity or attempting to determine their reasonableness or application.
(snip)

http://www.mapinc.org/propaganda/propaganda/proptech.htm#index
(snip)
Section Index
The above sections may be referenced directly in urls, etc.

accomplishment_technique
additional_info_needed
animosity_technique
appeal_to_authority
assertion
authority_technique
bandwagon
card_stacking_techniques
card_stacking_to_increase_prestige
celebrity_testimonial
change_of_pace_technique
characteristics_of_simplification
civilians_as_plain_folks
common_bond_technique
concise_technique
conclusion_based_on_favorable_facts_technique
dangers_of_name_calling
demonization_technique
direct_name_calling
disapproval_technique
ego_technique
enemy_leader_testimonal
ethnic_difference_technique
evident_over_time
exploitable_vulnerabilities
false_testimonial
fear_of_change_technique
fellow_warrior_testimonial
few_gain_many_suffer_technique
glittering_generalities
guilt_by_association_technique
hide_info_technique
homey_words
humanizing_leaders_technique
ignorance_of_threat_technique
illustration_technique
inanimate_object_technique
incredible_truth_technique
indirect_name_calling
individual_powerlessness_technique
insinuation_devices
insinuation_technique
lacks_naturalness
leading_question_technique
least_of_evils_technique
lost_opportunity_technique
lying

malicious_rumor_technique
name_calling_technique
native_dialect_technique
nonpersonal_testimonial
official_sanction_technique
only_favorable_facts_technique
opposing_leader_testimonial
other_side_technique
oversimplification_technique
people_vs_bureaucracy_technique
photo_technique
pinpointing_enemy_technique
plain_folks
planned_spontaneous_error_technique
plausible_testimonial
political_difference_technique
pure_motives_technique
rationalization_technique
repetition_technique
ridicule_technique
ruling_elite_difference_technique
scarcity_technique
selective_omission_technique
self-centered
self_evident_technique
shift_of_scene_technique
simplification_technique
slogan_technique
social_difference_technique
social_disproval_technique
sources_of_testimonials
special_favor_technique
stalling_technique
stereotyping_technique
take_action
terror_photo_technique
terror_technique
testimonal_technique
think_for_others_technique
transfer_technique
types_of_name_calling
types_of_plain_folk_techniques
unequal_taxes_technique
vagueness_technique
vernacular_technique
virtue_words
vocal_technique
warriors_as_plain_folks
(snip)
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. It is a short article, how many propaganda techniques can we spot
"Beirut, Lebanon, Jun. 15 (UPI) -- Iran reportedly is readying troops to move into Iraq if U.S. troops pull out, leaving a security vacuum.

The Saudi daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat, monitored in Beirut, reports Iran has massed four battalions at the border.

Al-Sharq al-Awsat quoted "reliable Iraqi sources" as saying, "Iran moved part of its regular military forces towards the Iraqi border in the southern sector at a time its military intelligence agents were operating inside Iraqi territory.""

At a minimum:
- Appeal to authority: The Saudi daily, I suppose.
- Assertion: asserts troops will move in if U.S. pulls out, without evidence. Also, the claim that its military intelligence agents are operating inside Iraq.
- Obtain Disapproval: Just the mention of Iran is good for that.
- Vagueness: "reliable Iraqi sources" I suppose.

I admit, I throw the term propaganda around in a pretty general sense, so it is nice to see a breakdown of the actual techniques.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. The moonies (UPI) at work
How could we have known? :crazy:
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. Gee, It Seems To Me Once Upon A Time.....
That the Iraqi's were massing on the SAUDI Border. You remember that. And they had Satellite photos to prove it, so it's ironic someone would bring that up.

There was one problem.

The Satellite Photos were faked.

There were no troops.

And I would be willing to bet the farm that the sense of Deja Vu that I am having should be all I need to know about the credibility of this story.

This is a Trial Balloon.

The Desperate Spiral Downward Continues.....

God Bless 'Murika.....
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Very Good Point.
But it's unlikely you'll hear the media whores admit they helped bamboozle the public once already over false claims of troop buildups by parroting Pentagon propaganda.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
40. April Glasspie in Tehran recently? nt
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. LOL!


U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

(Saddam smiles)

SOURCE:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. ChimpCo showing its October "surprise" hand early?
Bullshit detector really blaring over this one!

:puke:
:crazy:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. Iran Denies Report of Troop Buildup on Iraq border
Iran's state-run news agency IRNA quotes what it calls "an informed source" as denying a report in a Saudi-owned newspaper that says Iranian troops are massing on the border with Iraq.

The report in the pan-Arab Asharq al-Awsat, or "Middle East" newspaper, quotes what it calls "reliable sources" who say four Iranian battalions have moved to the southern border with Iraq. The sources say the troops are preparing to move into Iraq to fill a security vacuum if U.S. forces pull out after the transfer of sovereignty on June 30.

But IRNA quotes its source as saying the report is "fabricated and baseless" and is meant to help the United States continue its occupation of Iraq.

Iranian officials have previously said the Tehran government supports full sovereignty for Iraq.

http://www.voanews.com/index.cfm
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
47. A rump brigade can't take Iraq, but...
I think I have a pretty good idea what part of Iraq Iran really wants.

Take a look at this map:



See those three oil fields right there on the Iran-Iraq border, and the pipeline leading to Basra?. A rump brigade might possibly be able to assume stewardship of that comparatively small sliver of Iraq, particularly when one considers the Shiite leanings of that region. I'd be willing to wager that such an acquisition would increase Iranian oil reserves by a significant percentage.

The Neocons, of course, wouldn't like that very much, but who knows? It might prove to be a President Kerry's first international test.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
49. I can think of certain chimps that would like to invade Iraq, too
Oh, sorry, he already did.
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Mokito Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
55. This sounds eerily familiar...
Watch for incubator-stories or Ambassador's daughter-posing-as-victim-testimonies!
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