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Cardinal: 'Rainbow Sash' wearers won't get communion

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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:54 PM
Original message
Cardinal: 'Rainbow Sash' wearers won't get communion
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-040525rain...

Tribune staff reports
Published May 25, 2004, 11:57 AM CDT

Cardinal Francis George has instructed priests in the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago to deny communion Sunday to those who wear a so-called rainbow sash indicating they are gay or lesbian, WGN-Ch. 9 reported.

In a letter to pastors, the cardinal said those who wear the sash signal their opposition to church teaching and should not receive communion, WGN reported.

The national Rainbow Sash Movement has asked gay and lesbian church members to wear a sash made from rainbow-colored cloth to show their sexual orientation this Sunday, which is Pentecost on the church calendar.

***
I'm not Catholic, so I'm not sure how this works. Has Communion always been this much of a weapon? (I know you're not supposed to take communion if you've got a sin on your conscience, but is this pushing it?)
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Communion is only for the PURE
like the phalanx of sexually twisted priests that the Catholic Church has spawned and done its utmost to protect over the years.

To understand this, you need to think like a Republican.
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pllib Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. for sinners
Church teaching since Vatican 2 is pretty clear on this point - communion is for all Catholics (unfortunately still can't invite everybody to the table - yet). The idea is that we need Jesus - and this is a powerful way to meet him - therefore you do not need to be "pure" to receive communion. Jesus said that he came for the sinner, not for the just. He would be happy to break bread with anybody wearing a rainbow sash. This comment by this bishop is quite suprising - the church does not, as official teaching, condemn people with a gay or lesbian orientation (although it does condemn any sexual activity that occurs outside of marriage).
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. The right has really stirred this up huh?
Kerry is pro-life so they ask if he can't receive communion. After much deliberation (and different voices making statements) they say NO!.

Now this.

The odd part is that the issue of the death penalty hasn't been raised and there SEEMS TO BE NO REPUBLICAN CATHOLIC LEGISLATURES THAT IT WOULD APPLY TO.

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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
91. Kerry should tellem all to "Go to Hell"
He can pick another religion. There are so many others to choose from. Hell he should just become Muslim. I'll bet he'll have no problems with the Middle East after switching over. Then we'll all be safe.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
109. Not just the death penalty
I seem to recall the Pope being against the Iraq invasion as well. But I guess some in the Church are more interested in cherry picking the issues over which to deny communion and embarrass Dems. Has the Opus Dei sect really taken over? It's certainly starting to look like it.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cardinal George can blow me!
In fact he probably already has!

Fuck him... I went to Loyola and absolutely 90% of the Jesuits were gay and one chase me around the Jesuit residence! I have not had a problem with this until I read this article!

I think I might be going to Church on Sunday with a ribbon ... FUCK HIM.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. I, too, got a Jesuit education....in the 70s.
Definitely had their share of gays, but most just like to booze and bullshit.

Seems like all the liberal priests/scholastics have been run out, leaving only the Republican corrupted hypocrits in charge.

Needless to say, I parted company with this institution a long time ago.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I've never cared about any of this until I read this.
I am deeply offended and hurt. It is simply shocking and violates everything I ever knew about Catholicism.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
104. Not me. It validates most of what I know about Catholicism
Witch Trails (hundreds of thousands of innocents killed)
Jew Burnings and Blood Libels (more hundreds of thousands of innocents murdered)
The Crusades (now enjoying a revival--my favorite part of the First Crusade Story is where the Crusaders marched through modern-day Bulgaria...there they were met by Arab-looking people who they slaughtered also by the thousands...WUPS! They were COPTIC CHRISTIANS)
Oh, and let's not forget the Chruch's 1992 admission that the Earth wasn't Center of the Universe (now, I am all in favor of Enlightenment but isn't 500 years too late a bit much to be considered "enlightenment").
Child molestation and the COVERUPS!

Oh, there's SO MUCH MORE, but you get my idea.

NOTE: This is NOT a blanket condemnation of Catholics. There are Good People in every walk of life and clearly there is much positive about the Modern Chruch.

However, this latest Bushevik Frenzy resembles so many frenzies of long ago.

At least this one, for the moment anyway, isn't as grotesquely violent as the Witch Trials of the 15 and 1600s...
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. they are being VERY political
very bigoted

No one asks but the church is making an issue...and should lose their tax exemption...they have and are working on making church and state one....

This bigotry, and discrimination is what brought the rw and catholics together to help the rise of hitler....this is what happened leading up to Nazi germany.....maybe they are among us still and starting it again......they never went away...just moved to other countries.....
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romantico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. There is no doubt in my mind
this Cardinal is going to hell!
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. Any diocese where the bishop has threatened politicians should ...
lose its tax-exempt status. That is violating the conditions for that status.

Refusing communion for actions undertaken in the church, such as wearing the sash, is a church matter. But, then, so would be further actions, such as a kneel-in by those so refused and those who support them.
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jeanmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
88. They always have, really
I'm an ex-Catholic that varies from agnostic to atheist. The Church has always seen fit to shape and control and even be part of the politics. They've ruled, they've governed those that rule, and right now, they are attempting to govern those who rule right now.

I have a respect for those with faith, but I will never submit to this blackmail.
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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not Catholic and not gay but maybe all those in the Catholic church
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:07 PM by efhmc
who think this stinks should wear a sash in solidarity.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. sure are stirring me up enough to go back to church just to p**sss
them off....they are so unChristian...they are joining the RW in very unChristian behavior.....

these guys are becoming poster children for BIG reasons not to be Christian.....just like the Fundamentalist in ALL religions do.....very sick behavior...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Me too
I don't go because I wasn't married in the Church and I just have this goofy thing where I understand that particular sacrament so I don't take communion anyway. But I sure am thinking about finding me a little red coat hangar pin and a sash and showing up at every altar within 60 miles of me. Grrr, this is truly pissing me off.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. I always take communion if I go to a service
I have never given a hoot for what the church says. Communion is to give you God's grace and figure God would want me to have that...

I am divorced but not in the church....and probably have broken a number of their rules.... but I know God loves me and that is good enough for me....

These guys must be very scared their won't be any more little catholics to help them have a job......

They aren't against killing (at least adults) only little potential catholics.....

this is like eating meat on fridays.....so did all of those after they changed their minds....did they then get to go to heaven....

Churches really have lost it when it comes to spirituality....and their behavior is showing a lot of people good reason to not be in a church.......

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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
74. I refuse to take communion from pedophile and sinner priest.
Now we're even.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. And those with the pro-war buttons, too?
Or did they get rid of that whole Thou Shalt Not Kill thing?
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. What's the point?
I'm as puzzled by in-your-face gay Catholics as I am by Log Cabin Republicans. What part of "you're not welcome here" is too difficult to understand?

Censure of homosexuality is a central tenet of the Catholic church, so Rainbow waving activism seems rather pointless. Either you accept that the Catholic hierachy will never bestow official approval of your orientation or you leave the church.

--Boomer
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. No it isn't
Homosexuality is accepted in the Church as a state of existence, the way you are. It is not, in and of itself, a sin. The sex part is the sin, because you can't "be fruitful and multiply" and therefore have a "godly marriage". Obviously if you aren't married, any sex you engage in is a sin. A gay person is expected to accept that they're gay, but not ever have sex, as crazy as that is. But that's Church teaching.


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ze_dscherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
97. "Be fruitful and multiply"
Catholic Italy has the lowest rate of birth in Europe. And probably not because they all have become celibate ...
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mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Censure of homosexuality is NOT a central tenet of the RC church
Censure of homosexual sex is.

If censure of homosexuality itself was a central tenet of the church, a very large percentage of the seminary students who attended my jesuit college back in the '70s would have been drummed out.

These idiots have no way of knowing if someone wearing a rainbow sash is having sex, any more than they have any way of knowing if a straight couple uses birth control, engaged in pre-marital sex, etc. etc.

This is not a "faith-based" move. It's pure politics. For further information, read any of Andrew Greeley's recent columns.

I'll bet he'll have a lot to say about this! }(
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Yeah, right, big difference....
So if you remain celibate your entire life, you're welcome to stay in the Catholic church. Excuse me for being a little underwhelmed by that prospect. It's a very fine distinction to make, and not condusive to self-respect.

I'll rephrase my point to read "censure of homosexual acts" and ask this question instead:

Why would any sane, healthy, loving gay person want to remain in an institution that would condemn them to a life of self-denial? Why would anyone seek the approval of a church hierarchy that equates sexual expression of love with sin?
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mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
82. You're right, it's not a big difference
but it's enough to prove that their actions are not motivated by church teachings, get it?

IOW, they are liars. I don't know why any self-respecting gay person would belong to the Catholic church, the Baptist church or the Republican Party, to name a few. But many do, including friends of mine who are gay and devout Catholics.
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4_Legs_Good Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
63. Where can I read Fr. Greeley's Columns???
I'd love to hear what he has to say!

david
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Here's his website
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4_Legs_Good Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Thanks!!!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
111. I think we Catholics ought to have a lot to say about this, too.
Edited on Wed May-26-04 06:28 PM by calimary
Like asking them if they don't mind kissing their tax-exempt status goodbye if they're going to do politicking during Mass?

REALLY!

I wonder what my congressman has to say about that? He's quite an excellent liberal. I think I'll phone his office tomorrow and make a comment. Then, I'll start on the congressmembers from Chicago...
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
59. That makes sense if, but only if, one accepts the Church's definition ...
of who should run the Church. As it is, Catholics reject many of the Church's teachings (abortion rates are higher among Catholic than among Protestant women, and so on), and just let the bishops yammer on about it. What IS unusual in recent years is that RW bishops are trying to strike back by denying communion. What's needed is for lay people to resist that as well. Something like a kneel-in might really take the bishops back a bit.

The LC GOPs are also trying to dispute who runs the GOP; but they have less likelihood of effective action.
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. this is absolutely wrong!!!
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:07 PM by ithacan
Even according to official church teachings, it is homosexual behavior that is wrong, not actually being a homosexual.

And for someone to be denied communion just for openly stating their sexual orientation has no place in the church at all.

And this whole denying communion thing is absolutely ridiculous.

The cardinals, bishops and priests who are doing this are sinning very grievously, and should be openly denounced by the US Conference of Bishops and the pope.

What we need to see is a bunch of married hetero couples with kids wearing the rainbow sashes and going to communion. Kind of like the Danes all wearing yellow stars under the Nazis. See what the Cardinal does then...

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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I think what they are doing
Is openly stating opposition to church teachings and THAT is why they aren't getting communion.

How are they sinning by doing this?
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. No.
Read what the sashes mean to those wearing them, and how the cardinal is changing that meaning:

to those who wear a so-called rainbow sash indicating they are gay or lesbian, WGN-Ch. 9 reported.

In a letter to pastors, the cardinal said those who wear the sash signal their opposition to church teaching and should not receive communion, WGN reported.

The national Rainbow Sash Movement has asked gay and lesbian church members to wear a sash made from rainbow-colored cloth to show their sexual orientation this Sunday, which is Pentecost on the church calendar.


Note that the meaning of wearing the sash according to those who are calling for the sashes is only to indicate sexual orientation. Nothing more or less.

It is the Cardinal who is twisting this and incorrectly saying the sash "signals their opposition to church teaching."

Now the people wearing the sashes may or may not agree or disagree with church teachings. But the sash indicates only that they are gay.

That is not a sin, nor is it against church teachings to be gay.

Finally, if the church is going to start withholding communion from every person who is opposed to church teachings, they'll have to start counting kids and withholding from every married couple who does not have many kids and who cannot provide a doctor's note that they are infertile...

And what about all of the people who oppose church teaching on the death penalty (which the church opposes), and on the war in Iraq (which the Pope and the US conference of Bishops declared to be wrong), etc. etc.

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. RE: communion.
I'll bet 95%+ of those that receive, don't go to confession. People do it because they don't want to be the only person in the pew not receiving....as my mom would say, "do you want people to think you've committed a mortal sin?"

Much better to be a lying hypocrite and receive, then to be honest with yourself.

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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. I go because I like to
I have not been to a confession in over 20 years....probably......I do what I feel like and trust God will accept me even if the Church does not..... God loves me and you! And Christ said to love your neighbor as you love yourself and these church figures must not love themselves...
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
47. But they don't broadcast it
If you wear a sign saying you didn't go to confession, many priests will not give you communion.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
71. Couldn't possibly happen
Confession is for mortal sins only and it is possible to get through a whole week without committing a mortal sin. It's actually only required to go to confession once a year. So you could certainly wear a sign saying you didn't go to confession and be perfectly fine with the Church. And somebody who is gay and wears a sash to say so ought to be perfectly fine with the Church too. It isn't indicative of a sin at all, if the Church means what it says about gays.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Then ex-communicate them
Follow Church teachings or don't. That is what the Church does if they think they need to withhold communion.

And the previous poster was exactly right, it is not a sin to be gay or lesbian in the Catholic Church.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. The teachings they choose to follow are up to them
And no it is not a sin to be gay in the Catholic Church, just to act on it.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Pedophiles taking the high ground on matters of sexaul morality?
Are all the religions on the world trying to be more intolerant than each other?

The world gone mad.
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liarliartieonfire Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. This is sickening..I can just see Jesus Christ breaking bread with
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:12 PM by liarliartieonfire
all those who come to listen to him, picking & choosing who shall be included or excluded from his gracious circle.
Jesus Christ would have offered communion, blessed them ALL, and FORGIVEN them, while inviting them to return for more of his wisdom.

Jesus was not here to decide who was superior. He was on earth to teach,and forgive.
We are all made in the likeness of our God.

Unless Cardinal George is equal to God, I don't think it is his place to refuse those who seek communion with other believers.

Sin is a matter of personal conscience.

Those who wear the 'rainbow sash' and still hold enough faith in their chosen church to attend, participate and donate, well understand the art of forgiveness.
They've had to look aside and forgive lesser minds all their life.

Forgive, teach, offer communion and include all who walk through the doors of the Church for its grace.
Move on Cardinal.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. You are so right. The teachings of Jesus get more and more lost...
...in today's Christianity.

It's all about conforming to the dictates of the Pope. It's tragic.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. Excellent post!
These edicts about who is eligible for communion anger me so much. Jesus welcomed all and sought out those shunned by society. It is not for a priest to decide. If I were Catholic, I would wear a rainbow ribbon on Sunday.

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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Bush cabal is bringing out the worst in everyone !
These religious scum have little compassion. They only care about power and money, like the repugs.
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Mokito Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. On the other hand; if you suck on an over-sized lollipop and
wear a catholic schoolboy-uniform, something can be arranged. :evilgrin:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. You know, the gay-bashing crap is really stepping on my last nerve!!!
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:22 PM by Just Me
As a heterosexual woman who had a brief experience with marriage to a complete asshole,...and a person who has worked in the arena of domestic abuse (99% of which involved heterosexual relationships) I totally support any monogamous relationship where LOVE is the ruling force!!!

Moreover, if the "religion" that has replaced Christianity seeks to ignore fundamental principles and play politics,...I, for one,...will not mourn the death of such "religion".

BAH!!!!
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Speaking of abuse....
As a gay woman, and ex-Catholic, I can't help but think that any gay person who stays in the church is choosing to stay in an abusive relationship. What possible justification can there be to subject oneself to this kind of abuse over and over again? Get up off your knees and leave for a church that will treat you with dignity and respect. (Personally, I recommend the Unitarian church.)
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. the rituals of the service are fun to watch sometimes....
I haven't been in a long time....but I like the symbols....God would like that part just not the people running themm...

When I am at a service I always go to communion....God approves... that is all that matters...
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Ritual is fine, incense is even better
And I can happily enjoy all those aspects -- along with the splendid architecture -- on those few occasions when I wander into a church.

But I don't feel the need to demand some kind of approval from the unapproving hierarchy or to shove my fundamental disagreements with the Church into the face of the nearest priest. I accept our extreme differences of opinion and, conversely, respect the right of the Church to call me a sinner in their eyes.

It's this burning desire to force a confrontation with the Catholic church that puzzles me. Why bother? If you can't, or won't, play by their rules, then leave or keep your heresy to yourself. 'Cause they aren't going to change their minds on this issue.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. you are right....when I go and get communion they have no idea
I just do what I want. I am not telling them I am divorced. I just ignore that part of their message..
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
72. I had not gone to a catholic mass
for a good 15 years. I forgot all the exercise one gets at a service. Up, down, kneel, stand, kneel, stand, rest, stand, rest, kneel, stand, kneel, up the aisle for communion, back down, kneel, and then at the end the people in the middle of the row push at you to get out of there.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
79. The teen Catholic Service
Up, down, kneel, stand, kneel, stand, rest, stand, rest, kneel, stand, kneel...
and out the back door while everybody else is head up the aisle!
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. I found a fabulous church,...
,...called "The Center for Spiritual Living" while I lived in Washington State. After a short marriage, fascinating divorce (oh, and I do have a story to tell about THAT *LOL*),...nose-dive financial circumstance,...and heart-breaking move back to the folds of the Appalachias,...

I MISS that church,...so much!!! "LOVE" was the principle by which everyone operated and the diversity was delicious. Spirituality should always produce inspiration. "Religion" seems to just kill minds and hearts and spirits.

In my humble view.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. That is so wrong on so many levels
First, the official Church teachings recognize that one's sexual orientation is not in and of itself sinful. Second, not all wearing the sash would be g/b/t. Third, the Cardinal is an ass.

Damn, I'd wear the sash if I were in the Chicago Archdiocese...with all my kids. I bet I could get Hubby to go and wear one for that!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Absolutey pushing it
Because it isn't a sin to be gay or lesbian in the Catholic Church. The mere wearing of the sash saying that you are is not against any Church teaching.

The sexual acts are against Church teaching and I don't think any priests will be asking about that at the altar.

And I have never heard of withholding communion, that's what ex-communication is for. They should officially do that or shut up.
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
64. Yeah, what's up with the w/holding of communion?
Is that something some Protestant churches do? Don't tell me that somebody trying to get a cheap headline against Kerry just pulled some fundy rule out of his ass and tried to tell the Catholic Church to use it. Those bishops are showboating, as you point out, excommunication is how breaking church law is dealt with. This is just political meddling.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
78. Nobody does this
The Catholic Church did this kind of quasi-excommunication hundreds and hundreds of years ago. But now it's supposed to be a completely official act. I've heard of some fundy churches kicking people out, I forget the term for it. I had a friend who wore a spaghetti strap summer dress to a fundy church and the "elders" had a coronary and called her in for some sort of special meeting. She's like 5 feet tall, tiny little thing, mother of 4, and they got upset over spaghetti straps. She quit. Jehovah's totally ostracize their members, literally don't even speak to someone who leaves their church or gets kicked out. Bizarro. I'm sick of the whole mess. If a God couldn't come up with a better relgious plan than this, he's not all that smart.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Churchmembers can vote with their feet
If they don't like it, they can leave. The Catholic Church is not a democracy.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #80
94. What is your point?
You've been proven wrong at every turn. Withholding communication isn't Church doctrine. Being gay isn't against Church doctrine. The only people who aren't abiding by Church doctrine are the priests and bishops threatening to withhold communion. They're the ones who need to get out of the Church. It isn't a democracy and they don't have the right to make up the rules as they go. If they want to excommunicate people, do it. Otherwise they ought to shut up and do what the Church teaches them to do, which is give communion to anybody who shows up at the altar to receive it. Even people with rainbow sashes on.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. Every turn?
I've hardly posted at all, good buddy.

As I said, being homosexual isn't against church doctrine. But proudly, IN CHURCH, proclaiming you disagree with church doctrine can and should get you sanctioned. If you disagree with the church, either work from within or move on. It's a private group.

As for the rest, if the pope feels that the rank and file church leaders -- priests and such -- aren't obeying the rules, then he is empowered to act on it. Since he has not done so, I'm thinking he doesn't disapprove.

And no, they don't have to excommunicate people. This could easily be seen as a mid-range sanction and that is extreme.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. There's NO doctrine to disagree with
That's the whole point. Being homosexual isn't against Church doctrine so what could possibly be wrong in proclaiming that you are at the altar. I would think that's the most honest communion that has ever been made. There's no changing of the Church required, only acknowledgement of true Church teaching.

Excommunication is the way the Church officially states a person cannot receive communication in the Church. There is no "mid-range sanction". I'm thinking the Pope is a pretty wise man and knows this is opening a can of worms and hopes the whole thing goes away before he has to intervene.



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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Being "actively" homosexual
Is against church doctrine. Wearing the sash in this case merely indicates anger about church actions and the church doesn't have to tolerate that.

Excommunication is but one way the church punishes a person. It isn't the only one. Actually, there IS a mid-range sanction. For years, divorced people were not supposed to receive communion. Nor are they to remarry and they can't remarry in the church unless they get an annulment.

If the pope decides to intervene, then we shall hear from him. In the meantime, his lack of action indicates agreement.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. A sash doesn't mean "active"
It means what it says, a person is gay. Period.

A divorced person has ALWAYS been able to receive communion.

If that person decides to engage in sexual activity afterwards, they are in sin. And nobody in sin ought to receive communion. But they do, all the time, and that's the reason the Church has never denied anyone communion at the altar or named individuals publicly in modern times. What they are doing now is completely outrageous and any Catholic ought to be able to see that. Do you think people ought to have to fill out a checklist at the altar before they receive communion? Premarital sex? Affairs? Drunkeness? Gambling the food budget away? Vasectomy? Birth control? Condoms? Get real.

The Pope is doing what he usually does, which is to stay out of political firestorms as much as possible. Because he knows full well this withholding of communion is unenforceable, against Church doctrine and immoral.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. Not in my churches
Divorced people have always been told that they can't get communion if they remarry. If they are divorced and not remarried, the church still considers them married.

As for your checklist, if you are in OPEN opposition to the church, then you should not receive communion.

By not acting, the pope is acting. He is endorsing the actions of his bishops and priests.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-27-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #110
118. Yes in your churches
I'm just going to skip the married thing. You can go ahead and continue to believe divorced people can't receive communion if you want to.

As to being Gay this about says it all. Why would these people be required to pretend they don't exist at the altar when the Church is ministering to bring them to the altar in the first place?

The Baltimore Archdiocese has Gay & Lesbian Ministry for crying out loud. Why should the very people the Church has set up a ministry for pretend they don't exist at the altar?
http://www.archbalt.org/content.asp?id=251

"With a progressive congregation of 1,200 families at St. Bernadette Catholic Church, Ms. McDonald said there are plenty of ways for gays and lesbians, no matter their religion, to find acceptance and learn that being gay is not a sin.

With dozens of pamphlets about gay and lesbian issues in the church office and vestibule, straight congregation members have numerous opportunities to educate themselves and realize being gay is not an evil choice, Ms. McDonald said."

"Reclaim is a good gateway to educate people on the church's teachings," said Deacon Paul A. Weber, director of the Office of Ministry with Gay and Lesbian Catholics for the Archdiocese. "Many communities, quite frankly, are unfamiliar with issues of same-sex orientation."
http://www.nacdlgm.org/capital113003.htm
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. Gee, what an unfortunate time...
...my alma mater, the Catholic-run Saint Louis University, just sent me more begging magazines and letters.

I haven't been with the Catholic Church emotionally since they told my sister, who was being abused by her husband, that it would cost her a fortune to have her marriage annulled. I've only gone to Mass about once a year since then, when I visit my aged mother, to keep her happy. And when I have gone, I notice fewer and fewer teens and college-aged people.

The clergy have been complaining about "cafeteria Catholics" for a long time. I think they're no longer eating out; they're cooking for themselves and eating a healthier diet.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
25. Straight people should get sashes and put them on for church
...until they can't figure out who is who.

Just a suggestion...
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Yes, like the legend of the Danes in WWII
The Christians didn't actually all wear the yellow stars, but the spirit was the same (Denmark smuggled its Jews out of the country to protect them from the Nazis--see the story at http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/denmark.htm )

And following a good man like Bernadin...my sympathies, Chicago.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Star-Bellied Sneetches!
n/t
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
49. Great Suggestion! I know similar was done for Jews in WW II by Danish?
I'm a recovering Catholic...I wrote the church off years ago, and this just confirms why I "left" the church...Maybe I'll go again this weekend w/ a sash on to let them know what I think...

:angel:
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
28. I was looking for a rainbow tie...
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
56. On Ebay- "Rainbow heart" tie- great for Gay Dads or those w/ a Gay Dad
...grrrr...I've been pissed at the Catholic Church a lot, but this really makes me mad...
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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
38. you know... if the gays confess
to sex before marriage (just don't say what kind!) and don't have nookie until communion then they are in a state of grace.

The church hasn't refused anyone communion for a long time. I think even people who have major doctrinal disputes don't get this treatment.

Time to stop putting money in the basket and time to ask the IRS to investigate the church.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
58. Time for Catholic Church to refuse Communion to the likes of Rumsfeld...
..and the Bush Administration..seemss like a much better place to start than Catholics just because they are Gay...
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. As we evolve toward a more rational view of God & self ...
Edited on Tue May-25-04 03:54 PM by DemsUnite
The predatory criminal syndicate known as "organized religion" will become more and more desperate to herd the sheep. As cultish superstition gives way to personal empowerment, their antiquated, back-water notions regarding personal faith and collective morality will become transparent and essentially obsolete.

We will certainly see more bribery, black mail and strong-arm tactics from the Vatican. It's S.O.P. when a corrupt and bankrupt ideology finds itself in crisis. After all, the flock must remain fearful and guilt-ridden or the holy grift is reduced to a farce.

(on edit: typo)
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. well said - lately we're seeing alot of corrupt institutions going through
what I can only hope are the last stages before actual death throes.

I love the idea of the entire congregation showing up in sashes. That would be so beautiful.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. You certainly appear to hate organized religion
Many of us do not and I find your post offensive.
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. I don't hate "organized religion."
Edited on Tue May-25-04 05:15 PM by DemsUnite
I dislike profitting from fear-driven, guilt-ridden manipulation.

My God knows no such motive.

(on edit: Want to really be offended? Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... )
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. I'm offended by both
The Catholic Church has at least tens of thousands and possibly even more priests. Inevitably some of them will seek to break the law, commit crimes, sin, etc. However, using such instances to demonize a whole religion and religion in general is bigotry.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. I love it - to demonize bigotry is bigotry. What a load of crap.
Make victums of the opressors.

That's rich.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. The oppressors?
You must belong to a different church than I do. The Catholic Church is not oppressing. It is helping people however.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. Tell that to it's gay parishoners.
Nice try.

Helping people hate and vote repuke.

They should stay away from all those little boys and concentrate on saving their own souls.

Hypocrits.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Belonging to the Catholic Church is voluntary
If gay parishoners don't like it or don't agree with the doctrine then they should change churches or they should wait for the Catholic Church to change its view and that could be centuries if ever.

BTW, this is not new for the church to be against homosexuality. Most organized religions in the U.S. are.

And again you throw in the hate speak about little boys. There are child molesters in every walk of life, probably including posters here at DU. So unless you include that comment in every post, you are singling out the church unfairly.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-27-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #51
116. Playing the "hate" card again
In another thread, BB accused me of hating gays
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. I'm still waiting for an official Vatican statement on this.
I know one guy AT the Vatican made comments about this issue, but I don't think it's church teaching to deny communion without ascertaining that someone has broken church law, nor has the Pope spoken out. If he does, I hope he mentions all those pro-choice Republicans out there, as well as his own statements against the Iraq war.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
41. I'd say...
don't put the sashes on until after you've taken communion and gone back to your seat. Then, when the priest finishes up at the altar and sits and listens to the last of the hymn being sung, stand up and put on all of your sashes.

You never have to attend his church again. Go to another parish and receive communion.

It's time to break with Rome.
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mike1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
42. My cat is an expert cardinal catcher/eater. Wonder if he'd like a little
vacation in Chicago...
:eyes:
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
43. Vatican struggling for relevancy
That's all.

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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
48. Sounds like it's time for a kneel-in.
Anyone denied communion should just kneel in place (stand in place?).
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Since God is everywhere, we can bless our own bread and wine,...
,...and know the God within each and every one of us!!!
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
55. It was just a matter of time...
The Roman Catholic church is imploding, parish by parish.

Last one out, get the lights.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
60. I predict a New Catholic Church will rise from this.
Yes, a new Protestant faith, one that ordains women, marries gay people (and demands monogamy from them) and which allows abortion for medical necessity is the most likely result of the current attempt by the Catholic Church to throw its weight around.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
61. Going by these rules, no one in my church could receive the eucharist
Edited on Tue May-25-04 04:50 PM by jpgray
Perhaps the priest, and some of the children would qualify as obeying Catholic codes of behavior.
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. Oh really?
Only as long as your priest keeps his hands off those children, perhaps. No sure thing these days....
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. No, no extra-curriculars there
Edited on Tue May-25-04 05:29 PM by jpgray
I'm not a practicing Catholic, and I never got into the church scene, but our priest was a great guy.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
65. they are going to take this stuff to a place
Edited on Tue May-25-04 05:12 PM by xchrom
where every one is going to regret it.
what do you think will happen when more mcveigh types begin to do more than sit on their hands when they consume new and ever increasingly legitimate sources spouting hate?
extreme anti women, anti gay, anti free thinking hate speech will create a child i think the church will regret.
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Citizen Daryl Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
77. What color sash do you wear ...
... if you molest altar boys?
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
81. I'm no longer a Catholic.
..was I ever, i wonder?

This is just too much of an in-your-face of a rejection by the Church, or one of the "princes of the Church".

I protest this, so I guess Im now a protestant ! ;-)
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skippysmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
83. Are the bishops trying to chase everyone out of the church?
First Dem politicians can't get communion.

Then all Dems.

Now gays and lesbians.

And then they wonder why Boston is closing 60+ churches?

The Catholic church I kgrew up with is all about inclusion. Not exclusion.

My 64 year old mother, who goes to church every week is about ready to give up on the church because these idiots tell her that even though she has been a model Catholic, she isn't a good Catholic because she has been a Dem her whole life.
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Southsideirish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
84. Why don't we ALL wear rainbow sash's????? What would they do?
As a card-carrying Chicago Catholic I must say I don't recognize MY church anymore. First, there was the conservative pope - well, ok....then there was EWTN and Relevant radio stridently pushing their hard right views down our throats. Now its getting into this freeper thing about who gets communion and who should be reported if they distribute same to Catholic's whose faith is being questioned by the wingnuts.
"My" church isn't vengeful and filled with rage and hate - its filled with love and forgiveness.
I don't know who the hell or what the hell is going on but I think if, for starters, EWTN and Opus Dei would go away most of this viciousness would disappear.
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thebaghwan Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
85. I'm Catholic and I would say that fear of excommunication or withholding
the Eucharist has been a big gun for the Church over the ages. Now I say fuck them and their extremeist views.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
87. I'm thinking God's not going to be granting many front row pews
to current religious leaders when they get their final reward.
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
90. Some of us "Gotta go Hell".................n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
92. Liars and adulterers have nothing to worry about!
They will get communion so that then they can go on their merry way cheating and lying to others.

This homophobic orgasm that the Church leaders are engaged in seems disproportionate when compared to their paralysis when it came to protecting children from pedophile clergy.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
93. We have a Cardinal like him in Sydney - George Pell is his name.
He was Archbishop of Melbourne, and he refused communion to gays
who wore rainbow sashes. When families and friends of gays also
wore sashes to Mass and went up for Communion, he refused them
as well. Theologically, I don't think he had a leg to stand on,
but the Pope thought he was so wonderful that he moved him from
Melbourne to Sydney to bring us into line as well.

As yet, there's been no confrontation, but it will happen at some
time, I don't doubt. Our parish priest has recently been demoted,
and most parisioners believe it is because he was too progressive.
We know that Opus Dei go round to different churches and report
back on anything they think isn't toeing a very orthodox line, and
they reported our priest many times. He says it wasn't because of
Pell, but nobody believes that.

I just think some people have very strange priorities. I also think
that in the end, the Church will lose - people will either continue
to make their own judgments, as they do now, or they will leave.
Threats of burning in Hell don't have much effect on educated
people.

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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
96. another shining example
of why these big corporations, I mean "churches" need to start paying their share of taxes. Most are nothing more than blatant extreme rightwing political machines.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. You mean like black churches?
That lobby for Democratic candidates?
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. Yup them too.
Believe me that one is trotted out whenever I say that corporations .. I mean churches should be taxed if they want to push a political agenda and I stand by it. The power and money of all these rightwing Protestant and Catholic churches is WAY more of a threat than the benefit received from more liberal ones. Its just not right anyway, for the record I DO believe in a Supreme Being and even Jesus but I do NOT believe in organized religion and am sick of seeing the hate and money machine they often run taxfree. I find it kinda ironic they are working SO hard to take away the rights of actual taxpaying citizens while all the while contributing NOTHING of positive value to society.
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. I fail to see a difference between a moral agenda and a political one
Nor will I ever.

I have a sense of morality instilled by parents, teachers, nuns, priests, etc. So, if I believe in helping the poor, that is my morality, but in politics that also is a political agenda. The church advocates that and it is even more so.

Sorry, I don't see religion in America as a threat. It has helped us found and grow our nation. Sorry that you see it that way.

You last comment about churches contributing "NOTHING of positive value to society" is ludicrous.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. Really, I say
Edited on Wed May-26-04 10:27 PM by dusty64
it again, this story is a shining example of what I am talking about. Espousing hatred against citizens of this Country which is founded on the Constitution NOT the Bible. Pushing an extremist and divisive, not to mention blatantly hypocritical standard in order to take communion. Funny how they don't consider pro death penalty and pro illegal war politicians in that equation isn't it. Churches have done positive things in the past, but I ain't seeing anything lately.

I really don't want to pursue this further cause I'm tired, but it seems to me if helping the poor was REALLY the goals of some of these churches they might be willing to sell a few artworks to buy food and shelter for them, maybe. Or possibly stopping their insane opposition to birth control in third world countries perhaps. At least the Catholic church pays lip service to poverty, most of the rightwing Protestant ones don't even pretend to give a shit. As I said, I have NO use for organized religion if you do I respect that, but shouldn't have to subsidize it through their tax exemption status.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
98. Oh, my....
A note to the church:

Evolve or die out.

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DFWJock Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
100. Perhaps the
church is trying to save money by not serving gay parishoners. Just think of the billions they've paid out for the sexual abuse on children.
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user Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
103. Remember

The church is against the death penalty and the Pope said the invasion was wrong so add any of those people to your list. Cardinal if you don't look out you may end up alone.
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
105. All good Catholics should withhold dues and contributions
for as long as this BS continues. The Catholic Church just
loooooves their money.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. kicking
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
113. My question is, "Should Gay Priest be giving Communion"?....
Edited on Wed May-26-04 09:20 PM by Tight_rope
I truly believe in "Separation of Church and State", if the idea ever truly existed.

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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
114. I'm sorry... who needs THEM to give Communion?
Edited on Wed May-26-04 09:32 PM by Caliphoto
Does anyone that believes in God really believe that these politcal chowderheads are agents of God? They can do their own communion, if they'd like. Anyone can say a prayer, eat a wafer and drink grape juice, if it's meaningful to them. They are not God.. they are just employees of a church. They should be ashamed of themselves.. if they'd like to pick and chose what they want to believe or enforce out of the Bible, then they should at least pick the parts where we're supposed to be nice to each other.

I don't believe. But, if I'm wrong, and Jesus comes back... he won't have a beef with the Rainbow Sash people, it'll be those that were cruel and political in his name.. they'll be "left behind", as well as those that are raking in MILLIONS in his name.

Like the Log Cabin Republicans and the GOP, I can't fathom why any Gay, Lesbian, or pro-abortion people WANT to be part of a church like that.. run by a bunch of ignorant old men.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-27-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
117. First they came for the ....................................

http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/hitlerspope.htm
HITLER'S POPE

Long-buried Vatican files reveal a new and shocking indictment of World War II's Pope Plus XII: that in pursuit of absolute power he helped Adolf Hitler destroy German Catholic political opposition, betrayed the Jews of Europe, and sealed a deeply cynical pact with a 20th-century devil.

BY JOHN CORNWELL

One evening several years ago when I was having dinner with a group of students, the topic of the papacy was broached, and the discussion quickly boiled over. A young woman asserted that Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, the Pope during World War II, had brought lasting shame on thc Catholic Church by failing to denounce the Final Solution. A young man, a practicing Catholic, insisted that the case had never been proved.

Raised as a Catholic during the papacy of Pius Xll - his picture gazed down from the wall of every classroom during my childhood - I was only too familiar with the allegation. It started in 1963 with a play by a young German author named Rolf Hochhuth, Der Stellvertreter (Thc Deputy) which was staged on Broadway in 1964.

It depicted Pacelli as a ruthless cynic, interested more in the Vatican's stockholdings than in the fate of the Jews. Most Catholics dismissed Hochhuth's thesis as implausible, but the play sparked a controversy which has raged to this day.
(snip)
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