France Rejects God Reference in EU Draft

[baldguy]

snip

France wants to stick to the current text which says the EU draws "inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe."


British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw also backed the current text, warning that any mention of Christianity would mean "we have to bear in mind other religions as well."

more:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=9&u=/ap/20040525/ap_on_re_eu/eu_constitution

I knew it! They're all just Godless Communists!

[markses]

1. Sounds eminently reasonable

Recognizing religion while recognizing religious and cultural diversity.

Too bad they ban headscarves and treat their former colonial populations like shit. Let's not romanticize. Racism is a severe problem in Europe, as it is a severe problem in the United States.

[Imperialism Inc.]

4. Yes I remember that about the scarves.

I was quite shocked and still think that is shitty.

On Edit: By the way, what is the plural of hijab? Is it hijabs?

[DiskDefrag]

15. Yes, the French are SO horrible

trying to stop female subjugation. Bastards.

Meanwhile the Americans are headed by a nut case comitting war crimes against a civilian population... but my god, the head scarves!

Every nation will have a policy you don't agree with. Show me a nation that doesn't. In any case I would far more prefer a nation that bans head scarves vs a nation run by right wing fascists that have never heard of the geneva convention. When the americans get their act together then they can complain about the french. Until then seeing americans complain about head scarves is laughable.

This is like complaining about the neighbors 10 decible stero being too loud while you are running mega speakers at 150 decibles.

[msmcghee]

30. Hi Defrag - good point.

Welcome to DU.

[Just Me]

31. Can't disagree with you.

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[Dirk_H]

21. Religion and State in Europe

Hallo from Germany!

I'd like to provide some clarifying information about the scarves-discussion because we had quite the same discourse here in Germany (with a similar decision of the Constitutional Court about it).
First of all one has to know that there is a strict seperation of state and church in France as well as in Germany and a.f.a.i.k. in most EU-countries. This seperation has constitutional rank and is commonly considered as beeing crucial for an open, pluralistic society. Religion is a strictly private matter and the state must not interfere with it by its institutions and its officials. Therefore state officials like teachers at state schools (almost all schools in Germany and France are state schools) are not allowed to express their religious beliefs in an offensive way which may influence others (their students in this case). People have of course every right to do so in their private life but not in their function as state representative. Since the islamic scarve is considered to be a quite aggressive symbol of fundamentalist islam it is absolutely consequential to not allow officials to wear it in their official function.
This is absolutely NOT intended to oppress or discriminate a certain religion or a religious minority but in contrast to protect everybodys right of a private choice and exertion of religion without any influence of the state and its institutions or officials.
With the same reasons the German Constitutional Court decided a few years ago that cristian crucifixes in classrooms are not allowed.


BTW,
i am following the discussions on DU for quite a long time now, and it has become a beacon in the dark for me. It shows me, that there is still hope for America in these frightening days, that there are still a lot of self-thinkink people in the US.
GET YOUR COUNTRY BACK! KICK THE NAZIS OUT OF THE WH!

[BonjourUSA]

24. Nothing more to say about our relations with the religions

I had renounced to explain that our strict and rigorous separation of state and church(es) is one of the components of our basic freedom.

It's very difficult for our friends DUers to understand in France we very very rarely talk about religion. And, for instance, I don't know what is the religion of my friends, except for very few of them because a day we spoke about this subject during five minutes.

[PassingFair]

26. Big Welcome, Dirk!

I'm with you, and separation of church and state, 100%!
The climate here is creepy. Children being forced to recite a pledge that was re-written in the 50's to include "god". At my kid's school, they risk detention if they don't stand and say "under god". It's not supposed to be legal, but they threaten it anyway. I tell my kids to "lip-sync", just to avoid a hassle.

[BonjourUSA]

27. Is your kid's school a public one ?

[msmcghee]

32. Tell your kids . .

. . to insert the word "no" in front of "God" in the pledge when they are required to recite it.

Then let Asscroft's attorneys try to figure out how to prevent them from saying what they believe to be true.

Rather than run from coercion - it's sometimes better to co-opt it.

[pacifictiger]

7. I saw a recent documentary about the headscarves in France.

The upsurge and insistence on girls and women wearing them is coming mostly from fairly recent immigrant imams who want to promote fundamentalist muslim teachings. At the same time they are discouraging integration into French society. The stories of the increasing movement to suppress young muslim women, and indeed in some cases condone outright abuse was quite shocking. The headscarf outrage seems to me to be a hidden agenda about female control.

[Rochambeau]

18. Exactly. Very accurate analysis Pacifictiger. n/t

[lumpy]

34. Isn't it obvious that the French

wish to remain French and indicate there is no room for diversity ? Language restrictions, apparel restictions, the desire to continue ethnic French stability. It's their business, not mine.

[BonjourUSA]

38. You are telling idioties, my friend

;-)

[lumpy]

40. LOL ..you'll have to

interpret that sentence. Idioties ?

[BonjourUSA]

41. "no room for diversity"

If you want to find someone with French origne you should look for in the deep countryside.

% of foreign population (naturalized or not) to the total population, in the world we are the first for : Chineses, African and North African, all the continental Europeans and we have a new invasion of Britain, peaceful this time.

Our language changes and the French Canadians are better defenders than us.

Apparel restriction, did you walk in our streets a long time ago ? To ban religious symbols in the public schoosl and the public jobs doesn't mean to do it everywhere.

[Flagg]

42. There's no such thing as "ethnic French"

And, unfortunately we have make laws to prtotect our culture or else we'll end up like Italy or Germany where local cinema is almost dead.

[Vladimir]

43. There is this side to it, yes

I don't know about France, but its interesting to note that in Britain, the wearing of headscarves only really took off in the 1990s. The first generation Muslim immigrants tended not to wear them.

[dumpster_baby]

2. DAMN, I wish I had EU citizenship

France, Netherlands, Scandanavia, Belgium, all these countries and more have RATIONAL governance. And a great safety net, universal healthcare. As a child, I was taught to thank god for being born american. How foolish of them and of me to believe it.

[Jmeyers130]

5. hey wait a second!

You're supposed to hate France, erm, Freedom, i guess. They don't like American policies...

oh wait, neither do i. I've never liked Freedom more...too bad we don't get much of it here

[tritsofme]

3. I guess I don't see what the big deal is with this...

I mean Christianity has been kinda important in Europe for the last 2000 years or so.

Don't most European states (excluding France for sure, maybe others) have state churches?

[Imperialism Inc.]

6. Which part don't you get?

Why "inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe." isn't enough for some? Or why they are resisting references to Christianity?

If the former, I agree I don't understand why it specifically has to say Christianity.

If the latter, then really the answer is one word(one country): Turkey.

[playahata1]

11. Christianity as practiced and propagated in Europe

is not the Christianity that is practiced and propgated in America. While there is no separation of church and state, and despite the Catholic Church's strong influence in countries such as Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Ireland, and France, the people are pretty much left alone when it comes to spiritual matters. No one tries to tell you what you can and cannot read/see on TV/listen to on the radio/learn in school/that you have to stay in the kitchen and make babies, the way the Fundies do here.

[corriger]

14. because you fundamentally misunderstand

that there is this separation but not in your context of 'government' as you understand it

[playahata1]

19. My mistake and my misunderstanding.

All I know is that Europeans don't go around parading their particular faiths for all to see and hear. Religious leaders don't go around telling people to vote a particular way or else suffer eternal damnation.

If I read you correctly, what you are saying is that there is no "state" church in any of the (Catholic) countries I'd mentioned, or in Protestant countries such as Great Britain (Anglican) and Germany (Lutheran). Please elaborate. I kind of understand where you are coming from, yet I need to be clear about the relationship between church and state in your country and other European countries. How much influence does the Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, Greek Orthodox, or Russian Orthodox hierarchies really have with these governments? Thank you.

[Kellanved]

20. well

I can only speak for Germany.

Basically there are three religions (Catholic church, the Protestant Churches and the central Jewish Council) which can be seen as "State Religions", as they obtain their funds from taxes collected by the Government.
Most German States offer Religious instruction in schools, some even in Buddhism, Islam, ... . And: and there is a cross hanging in courtrooms, until recently in southern school rooms as well (The supreme Court stopped that one).

So much for the official part, the unofficial part:
Northern Germany is pretty secular and mostly protestant (both due to Prussian heritage), southern Germany is a completely different story. Censored Sex-Ed schoolbooks and such things are not unheard of there.
Conservative politicians tend to be quite religious (and leave no chance to tell you about it). The conservative party(ies) has a "C" for "Christian" in it's name. However they don't listen to the churches on most topics: Immigration, Social Agenda - even the southern Head Scarf ban.

The conservatives are very much in favor of the "God Reference", with their majority in the upper house they can demand it.

As to the churches themselves: The Catholic church even had a policy that could be seen as "pro-Choice" (it wasn't really, but still...) . Eventually the Vatican ordered them to abandon it.

[BonjourUSA]

25. We began to use the guillotine for them in 1789, you're late

[Rochambeau]

17. Yes, no state churches in France...

since the 1905 law ( Loi de séparation de l'Eglise et de l'Etat ) no clergy from any religion is neither supported nor even paid by the state. One exception in Alsace, Moselle provinces where the concordat between state and church signed by the german empire after the annexion of those regions in 1870 has been left effective when those regions went back to France in 1918.
In Germany as far as I know the state is paying the clergymen.

[kintaro]

23. germany ...

Sorry, no. Germany is not paying the clergymen and never done that.

The goverment collect the "taxes" for your church (catholic, protestant, jewish(not sure about this)) and this is based on some really old laws straight back from the middle age. It was often discussed, but people like it that way to support their church, and the goverment offered to take over the work of collecting the money.

If you don't want to pay theses taxes, you can just tell the administration and you will never have to pay it again. I have done that.

[leesa]

8. I think I am going to have to move to Europe.

They are so wonderfully sane over there.

[femmecahors]

9. I love France . . .

With all her problems, she's a progressive bastion . . .
Yeah, there are a lot of right-wing bastards here too . . . but they get overwhelmed by the left most of the time.

Vive la France!

[TahitiNut]

10. Moi aussi.

:thumbsup:

[corriger]

13. religion in europe has less place

in government and politic than in america. It is just this way. Similar towards the originals poster of this thread, the outlaying Iman in france, the american fundie is the same.

[steely]

12. Zoot alors

"....I was a free man in Paris..."

[Pert_UK]

28. Bad Zoot, wicked Zoot........

And so forth....

Errr...."zut", n'est-ce pas?

[usregimechange]

16. Maybe I will move to France... nt

[NuttyFluffers]

22. c'est magnifique!

sounds like france has it's head on straight, rock on. knew there was a reason i felt compelled to start learning french. sounds like a great place to visit - or stay for a while. ;)

[Terran]

29. If they were to recognize Christianity specifically,

they would need to acknowledge the debt European civilization owes to Islam as well. And what about the great pagan religions that preceded the Christian era? Were those of no influence on European culture?

[msmcghee]

33. Dirk, have you ever heard of a book called . .

. . "The Utmost Island".

It's a very cool historic novel about the time that Christianity overwhelmed the pagan religions of the northlands of Europe.

[Terran]

35. No, I haven't

but it sounds interesting. I'm very into historical novels, especially ones set in the ancient world (Mary Renault is one of my favorite writers). I will check it out, thanks msmcghee!

[msmcghee]

39. Cool . .

I found my copy at a garage sale for 25 cents and it's turned out to be one of my favorite books.

It's full of interesting tidbits.

Like - north, south, east and west are named after Norse Gods.

And the difference between the pagan notion of "giving your word" and the Christian notion of "telling the truth".

If you "gave your word" to someone, and what you were saying was not true, then you could not speak - until that person gave your word back to you. They owned your voice.

Also, "going berserk". Berserk means a "bear's saark" or cloak. You put it on when you go crazy and act like a bear.

Anyway, that's just a few of the gems - and I've had too much coffee - so I'll quit with that.

:hi:

[DaveSZ]

36. .

The attack on the separation of church and state in America by Bush is really unprecedented, and we also have a constitutionally protected separation in this country as well.

Many people are too stupid though to realize that it protects one of their most basic freedoms.

BTW I hope our Supreme Court takes "under God" out of the pledge, but I predict it will be 5-4 overturning the 9th Circuit ruling.

We have to try to replace either Rehnquist or O'Connor if we can.

[ze_dscherman]

37. Many non-christians living in Europe

Many people living in Europe are not christians. First, there's a huge number of atheists or agnostics. And of course, there are millions of muslims, immigrants from North Africa and Turkey, that have become EU citizens. Some of the Balkan states (not EU yet) have Muslim population, and Turkey may well become a member state.

So, why exclude these people by insisting to specify "christian" values?