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CharlesGroce Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:22 PM
Original message
Democrats agree to suppress photos of US torture in Iraq

from http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/dems-m15.shtm...

Please read the entire article before commenting.

<snip>

Leading Democrats vocally backed the Pentagon in withholding the pictures. Senator Dianne Feinstein of California baldly asserted that there was no need for the American people to see the war crimes that are being carried out in their name, stating, I think its important that we see them so we know what were dealing with, but I think the nation has had enough of a sample.

Democratic Senator Charles Schumer of New York put forward an even more preposterous argument in favor of withholding the photographs. Schumer said he had been inclined to release the photos, but changed his mind when the military explained to us that to release would violate their privacy and the Geneva accord. Here the Democratic liberal invoked the Geneva Conventions to sanction the suppression of evidence of massive violations of the self-same Conventions!

The agreement to suppress the photos is part of a systematic, bipartisan cover-up of the crimes of US imperialism in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. The Democrats have, for the most part, gone out of their way to demonstrate their readiness to conceal, to the extent possible, the truth from the American people.

Indicative of the politically incestuous relationship between the two parties was an article in the May 12 New York Times extolling the amicable relations between Warner and the ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, Carl Levin. The article quoted a political scientist at Rutgers University who compared Warner and Levin to an old married couple. The article continued: Mr. Levin, of Michigan, did not deny it. Were very close, and we totally trust each other, he said, and thats the key to everything.

<\snip>
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Two things...
Edited on Sat May-15-04 10:32 PM by zulchzulu
One: Showing the photos does go against the Geneva Convention. So for any politician to say that they should not be released is actually OK.

Granted, Rumsfeld released photos from his other pet torture project at Camp X-Ray and violated the Geneva Convention and no one moaned.



Two: The photos will be released sooner or later anyway. Whether it's on BBC or some other site, the photos will be leaked and available.

I can't wait to see the guy's face half-eaten with the chick smiling next to him.

/sarcasm

PS. I'm still wacked from watching the Berg video. Do yourself a favor. Don't watch it. It ain't worth it.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Americans Don't Know Our Troops Raped & Killed Innocent Iraqis
Edited on Sat May-15-04 10:40 PM by cryingshame
so while on one hand I can agree the next wave of photos shouldn't be released...

on the other hand, I think Americans need to grow the hell up and face what's going on.

It's disgusting to hear mediawhores calling this crap "frat pranks" and JUST "humiliation.

Iraqis know what was happening to their neighbors being rounded up. It's imperative US citizens know what has been done in their name.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. If you don't know already...
...then you haven't been paying attention and releaseing more pictures won't fix that.

It is, as was mentioned above, a violation of International Law, individual privacy rights, and about a dozen other things.
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CharlesGroce Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. no wonder the...
Buckaroo Bonzaii theme songs constantly plays in your mind's walkman, your a cool and good person! Buckaroo would be proud!
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. It isn't if their faces are blurred out.
RC
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #36
46. Absolutely right. We would have not seen the first photos
if publishing the photos with obscured faces jeopardizes their privacy.

Someone is really desperate, hoping we've all gone brain dead, and will simply take their word for it.

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

These Bush people are shabby folks. Shabby, sneaky, murderous, and cowardly.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #46
68. Evidence of War Crimes MUST be public - Shame on Feinstein and Schumer
Democratic Senator Charles Schumer of New York put forward an even more preposterous argument in favor of withholding the photographs. Schumer said he had been inclined to release the photos, but changed his mind when the military explained to us that to release would violate their privacy and the Geneva accord. Here the Democratic liberal invoked the Geneva Conventions to sanction the suppression of evidence of massive violations of the self-same Conventions!

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #68
92. THEY ARE SCUM--ESPECIALLY SCHUMER
A real Dino and apologist.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
51. Not that I think Bush is a Nazi
but are holicaust and cambodian atrocity films a violation of the geneva convention. I don't buy it. Sorry.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #51
66. In the Holocaust and Cambodian films...
Edited on Sun May-16-04 05:57 AM by DarkPhenyx
...the people in the pictures weren't POW's. Additionally there were no longer investigations going on when the vast majority of the stuff held by the Government was released.
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YankmeCrankme Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #66
73. Is it just me
But, I get tired of the term POW, what war is it that was declared? Are we at war with Iraq? I thought only Congress had the power to declare war? What POW's are these? These are detainees, that's all. They aren't even arrested for crimes, just hauled off randomly because they are Iraqis and living in their own country.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #73
81. Not true.
Edited on Sun May-16-04 08:51 AM by DarkPhenyx
Or not entirely true. Unfortuante that you belive that.

Believe me. You want these people to be EPW's. Which is actually the proper term. Enemy Prisoner of War.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
89. Yeah, I guess those pictures are a hell of a lot worse than the actual
Edited on Sun May-16-04 11:09 AM by TankLV
atrocities that were committed. We should be more concerned about those pictures and how they make us look for what we did!

(sarcasm off)

Outraged over the outrage, huh?

You never disappoint us all.

Of course, the mere fact that if it weren't for those pictures, you'd be calling us all tinfoilers and Saddam apologists for even suggesting that bunkerboy's thugs and mercs are committing atrocities never crosses your (and people who think like you) "beautiful mind" anymore.
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CharlesGroce Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Actually
I believe it our duty to escalate the political situation here in the US (beyond John Kerry's representation of the solution to war being escalation) to save these poor mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters through boycott, political demands, protest, etc. since it is our fault that this has happened...allowing our capitalist interests to get out of hand.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. As citizens we have every right
to know what is being done in our name.
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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Right On! shraby
Congress gets to see the photos and we don't?

They work for us!

I don't buy that crap about violating the Geneva Conventions; Bush & Co suddenly find religion and want to invoke international law when it suites them.

Yet they didn't have any problem releasing the photos of Saddams dead sons.

If the Democrats lose this election, we'll know why.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
48. Those photos of Uday and Qusay were plastered across the tv screen
almost 24/7 for AGES. Couldn't get enough dead sons exposure.






They showed us before and after shots. I think this one is actually AFTER they had tidied them up a bit.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
72. our tax money paid for the atrocities
don't we have a right to see them?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Every damning bit of the evidence must be revealed
Edited on Sat May-15-04 10:49 PM by meluseth
People can make up their own minds if they want to look at it--I don't have to see the video of Nick Berg's alleged beheading to know that the man died horribly, and as part of someone's sick and twisted plan.

The torture photos and videos are the images of empire, of neo-Fascism, of something as yet unnamed but horrifying, just over the horizon.



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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
56. on the horizon
yes, i can see that too. i refuse to view the beheading video. what, is this fucking rome??
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #56
80. Trust me you've seen worse!
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. I agree. Most Americans don't know what the fuck happened.
They are too fucking lazy to read the Taguba report.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
84. it is important to know before the bushCo does the same thing to us here
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CharlesGroce Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. oh I haven't
and I recognize there is no need to do so to argue and convince others of the illegality and filthiness of this war, so I haven't and won't. It's actually not a censorship issue, it's an integrity issue. No need to see someone get fucked with a broomhandle to empathize what it might be like to experience such a thing (thank goodness). Thus the 'Halls of Debate', where one may talk of things, and not actually need to experience getting fucked by a broomhandle, nor even need to see such a thing, to know that it's 'bad'.

Thanks for reading nevertheless!
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demoman123 Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
58. Two things have to be done:
(1) There must be a full public disclosure, including pictures, of everything that happened.

(2) Those who are responsible from bottom to top, must be punished.

Only in this way can we expiate the crimes committed in our name. It is not enough for the BBC to post the pictures, or for some underground website to do it. The responsible party, the US government, must acknowledge what happened and admit responsibility. Otherwise, we, as a people, can never atone for these acts, paid for with our taxes and done by our public officials.

This is what is morally required. This will not happen under the Bush administration, and it may not happen under a Kerry administration, either, unless we make it happen.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Hear, hear! Well-said.
Excellent post.

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
70. Watching the Berg beheading was much milder than many
shows on tv or at the movies.

In fact after watching several times it indeed looked scripted and less real.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think we need a detailed list
of every photo but we do not need the phots themselves. Enough already. Furthermore - the Iraqis depicted in them do not need to be shamed further and forever on the internet. BUt we do need the info. And any pics that us the persecutors should be released with the Iraqi faces obscured.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I agree.
Written descriptions would be an answer here. I believe we have the right to know what these soldiers did, it needs to enter into the public consciousness, especially since the public is paying for this and making alot of people, particularly the contractors, very rich.

But the outrage happened because the IMAGES were released. Alot of people just don't, and won't read; this is the age of tv and people expect to be spoon fed.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
52. American respond better to picture then literature
We need pics, just like the we needed pics to grasp the atrocity of Cambodia and Viet Nam, and the Nazis.
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crossroads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Those hoods 'saved' most of the Iraqi torture victims I saw
from further public humiliation, but the harm done to their minds will stay forever IMO. These for the most part were ordinary Iraqi citizens, and not terrorists! I do think a list or photos with faces obscured would work. The public must be allowed to see these horrors so they will not dismiss this outrage as mere "fraternity prank's" as the media is beginning to call them! Voters must not forget this scandal. Rumsfeld must go!

:kick:
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
85. Rumsfeld is only a small part of this....there are many others to go
many others need to go along with rumsfeld. These sick policies were approved by bush, cheney and lawyers and others......they all are part of the ok'ing of this behavior......

We don't need an oliver north where it did not go high enough and one guy became the show trial for the rest.... they are ruining.... lower lifes..... to protect themselves...and they will continue this sick behavior elsewhere....again....again...and again
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exDinosoar Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Creative headline
I have yet to see or hear a single congressional democrat use the term torture to describe the prison abuse and sex shows. Has anyone other the WSWS heard any democrats describe the events as torture?
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CharlesGroce Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I believe
the quotes are enough of a description.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Welcome to DU! n/t
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
62. You bet!
Try this:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-t...

Look at the remarks of the woman who is the ranking Democrat on the armed services committee.

I have read a few of your posts here. I haven't alerted yet, but there is plenty of time for that.
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #62
86. The page is removed..
Edited on Sun May-16-04 10:13 AM by PaDUer
did you copy any of that article? It's important to start copying/pasting info from articles due to them being removed, and they're being removed for a reason so the people don't get all the important facts. They're trying to slip this under the rug more and more.

edit-
here's what popped up at the url you listed--
baltimoresun.com
Sorry, the page you requested could not be located.

If you are attempting to reach a page from a bookmark, the page URL may have changed. For current section addresses, please see our site index.

If you are attempting to locate an older news story, it may no longer be here. Free archives of articles are maintained for two weeks online.

If the article is more than two weeks old, you should be able to locate it in The Baltimore Sun's archive online. Searching is free, but there is a fee for downloading full text of found articles.
If you still have trouble finding what you need, please go to our customer service page.
Thank you for visiting BaltimoreSun.com.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. Privacy arguments are just excuses for cover-up
Most people won't believe these things happened, or equivalently will just shrug them off as "that's war" without seeing the pictures. If privacy is that important, the faces of the victims can just be 'pixallated out', or whatever it is that is done to obscure. This was done to make sure nobody could see (horrors) the genitals of prisoners being humiliated, so it is obviously not a technical problem.

As for the torturers, tough luck. If they were caught doing the same things in civilian life their images would be all over the tabloids. One of the things that helps ensure that this won't happen in the future, is the knowledge that exposure is likely.

Also, as long as the images are not out there, Rush and the others can babble on about "frat hijinks", and Rummy, Bush, et al can go right back to the torturing business.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. You forget, they committed crimes (I am talking about the guards)
They were the ones that were doing the actions, not having the actions done to them. As for the prisoners, I said they could have their faces obscured. I don't know if that wasn't clear, or if you feel that the persons doing the abuse some how "had it happen to them". If so, you might want to explain what you mean rather than offer abuse yourself.

As for that sort of thing happening to me, I expect I will never be put into the position of torturing prisoners for a war effort. If it did happen, I would hope that I would not follow illegal orders. If I did follow illegal orders and tortured prisoners, I wouldn't expect a lot of sympathy. I think most people on this board are of the same mind.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
79. Trying to censor what is going to trickle out is just plain dumb! n/t
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. In light of the games being played with the Berg video.......
We need to see all the pictures just for technical reasons. Americans who sit on juries of murder trials see way worse than this. It's time to grow up.
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CharlesGroce Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. no! there is no reason to see these pornographic pictures...
One can argue the illegality of the war without them, one could a year ago, without evidence of the future crimes to be committed in your name. Maybe if you can't you should stay out of the political representation field.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Democrats
"The agreement to suppress the photos is part of a systematic, bipartisan cover-up of the crimes of US imperialism in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. The Democrats have, for the most part, gone out of their way to demonstrate their readiness to conceal, to the extent possible, the truth from the American people."

Only 23 Democrats voted against a blank check for Bushco to invade Iraq. The majority of Democrats are on board with the colonization of Iraq and thus do not want the public to turn against the takeover. Democrats are mostly servants of the Multi-Corps as are the Republicans. Amerika is an Oligarchy and the two parties are servants to it.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
47. Well put.
BushCo is only the sitting regime. Blame for these atrocities is shared by those Dems who voted for this atrocious war--and who continue to sustain it.

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. So according to your "logic"
Images of Auschwitz and lynching victims are unnecessary, do not belong to the historical record?
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I Don't Think We Saw the Worst of Those Images
Edited on Sat May-15-04 11:20 PM by iamjoy
(added text on edit)

The Concentration Camps, I mean.
I think we saw a few pictures to get an idea of what happened, but the worst images weren't shared.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I've seen many, many images of torture from World War 2
On television and in books. Things that can in no way shape or form be classified as "humiliation." Things that americans have no qualms looking at or classifying as torture, performed by "savages," etc., when talking about the enemy.


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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Maybe I'm Just In Denial
Because I hate to think we're so easily cowed.

Why don't any of our Dem leaders have the courage to stand up and say what many here are saying. That just because Saddam Hussein used torture doesn't make it all right for us to engage in such practices. That just because some of these people hate us and take pleasure in our suffering doesn't mean we should behave the same. We're supposed to be better than they are.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. We're certainly supposed to be better, I guess
according to all the movies. It's been a noble experiment in many ways, even though tragically flawed from the start.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. To be fair, maybe I'm just too cynical. But it does worry me that "Not a single Democratic member of the committee responded to Inhofes fascistic rant." Why not?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. key words, there
"when talking about the enemy."

So very true.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. I think that's why some want so desperately to cover up the evidence
It seems that we have met the enemy, and he looks suspicously like us.

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. In light of WWII
The Hitler regime didn't have the photos disclosed to the population. If the physical evidence had been widely released to the German citizens Hitler might had been stopped earlier. That also includes other countries that refused to believe that atrocities were being committed.

If there is a problem with violation of international law releasing the photos I am sure that there are ways to satisfy any requirements.

How about the Iraqi's subpoenaing the photos before the International Court? Submitting copies of the cd's to the United Nations and the Hague.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:43 AM
Original message
That's a really good point--could history have been changed
if the images had been out there for all to see from the beginning?
There was certainly some information available, I think, for those who were reading widely. But would the actual images have made any difference?

Yes, I think the court usually decides how the evidence is handled, not the perpetrators of the crime.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
50. Even the Jews didn't believe the atrocities were happening
They heard about it but just couldn't believe something like that could happen.

That was part of the message at the Anne Frank exhibit here in town.

The total context of the photos would give the public a better idea of the truth and the severity of the situation.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
43. Not the issue
What has the legality of the war got to do with the torture issue? Nothing.

We are talking about crimes committed while guarding prisoners at Abu Ghraib. War drimes committed by Americans. They should be part of the public record.

Anyone who doesn't want to see them doesn't have to.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
53. This is the court of public opinion
and the public won't read reports. They will respond better the shocking images. We have four generations of television orietated non-readers to convince. If this is a violation of geneva then so are holocaust documentaries. So are those images of the little viet namese girl getting napalmed. This so called protection of victims is protection of Bush only.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
75. some Democrats are desperate to cover up the photos - why?
This coverup is strictly to protect "private contractors" who were hired for torture.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
74. why the Berg video is bogus yet genuine American pro-war propaganda
it is broadcast on Yahoo links. The real stuff is suppressed. Any rocket scientists out there scratching their heads over this?
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. Scylla & Charybdis
If they clamor to show the photos, than they are playing partisan politics with Iraqis being tortured. Maybe they are just so shocked and horrified by them that they can't imagine sharing them with the American people. I think I read somewhere (don't know how true it is) that jurists in murder trials sometimes suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (from the images/evidence they see).

And then the Pentagon comes and classifies these pics anyway and the Dems look stupid and weak. Some might say they look stupid and weak now. But, geesh, look at all the fuss over the flag draped caskets.

Or, they may be cutting a deal for some one's head to roll for this, not Rumsfeld, but some one high up. At least I hope they aren't just rolling over and play dead, that whatever reason they have it is a good one.

Really, why do we need to see the photos, anyway? To see how brutal we were? I can imagine well enough. Anyway, the right wing extremists will justify it no matter what. If they can't justify it as "playful" ( :grr:) because the picture is too gruesome, they'll just say how the Iraqi deserved it (as they already are saying.)
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. That is a problem...
The Pentagon/Military/CIA or whoever has no f**kin right to classify the photos.

Everyone needs to yell COVERUP everytime and continuously.
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
87. I concur..
the need for those photos/videos is a must. The longer the people sit down and shut up is giving these pukes to the go-ahead to do more. It's up to the people to demand the release of them and not allow this to continue. The silencing of the people is what got us here in the first place in 2000-everyone allowed the right winged pukes to do as they wanted and get away because they know thee D's are weak and will fall in line.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
41. You don't need to see the photos
Nobody HAS to see the photos. Nonetheless they should be 100% public record. This is bullshit.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
76. Photos must be 100% public record
exactly
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. Democrats almost always give in to what Republicans want
Edited on Sat May-15-04 11:52 PM by Democat
We need to get rid of these weak Democrats in office and replace them with some real fighters.

Can you imagine even a single Republican agreeing to suppress these pictures if Clinton was president?

Our side is weak.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Exactly!
If the congressional dems had half the discipline of the repukes, I'm convinced we would hold a majority in both chambers. Things haven't changed since Will Rogers uttered the phrase "I don't belong to an organized political party, I'm a democrat." Leaders like Daschle who's from a red state and engages in full-bore appeasment doesn't help either.
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Unperson 309 Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
30. There Comes A Point...
Edited on Sat May-15-04 11:58 PM by Unperson 309
When things have to be shown.

The crisp spring morning, with the scent of budding trees, the faint tang in the air, not quite identifiable...

Men, women, even many children, dressed warmly for the winter's chill was still in the breeze, filed slowly, unbelievingly, flanked by United States GIs, down a path that led between iron gates.

The faint charcoal-y scent they had become so used to in their small village was getting slightly stronger, along with another less recognizeable one.. the sick sweet stench of putrefaction.

Amazed, stunned, at first unbelieving, they filed through the gates into the main assembly area. Slowly the coffle of truth wended its way past a stack of bodies covered with quicklime, a whipping rack encrusted with blood, past barracks that had less protection from the elements than the chicken coops many of the viewers had in their own yards. Some thought of snow and shivered.

They saw emaciated men and women, clinging to walls for the strength to stand. They filed into, through and past buildings containing ovens designed to incinerate several human corpses at once. With slow, dawning horror, they realized that these ovens were the source of the funny smell they occasionally had commented on in the months before the fall of their country.

The first comments and questions were single words only: "Oh!" "Why?" but most notable was the silence. In a beech tree beyond the wire, a bird burst into song, celebrating the spring and the onset of nesting season. The notes of its song fell like razor edged ice among the viewers. Somehow, the bird's joy seemed almost... an obscenity.

No longer could they avert their eyes from the still boxcars on the siding. Through interpreters they were told of the men who had stood there, pointing with walking sticks or whips, choosing those who would live, who would die, who would work, who would be experimented on. No longer could they joke about the shifts of wind that carried ashes across their tidy houses. They now knew what the ashes had been. As they viewed the piles of glasses, the masses of hair, clipped to use in their country's military effort, the passports, the wedding rings, the shoes, the lampshades made of tattooed skin, the bars of soap... they saw their national character for thrift, prudence and efficiency transmogrified into the horror they had ignored up until now.

The question that had seemed so far-fetched, so unreal: "What have we become?" was face to face with the stark answer: "This!"

And in first one mind, then another, and another, came the dawning resolve "We must never become this again!"

The knife had been swift, the wound clean and painful. the healing could at last begin.

There comes a point when things have to be shown.

309
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #30
61. Yes. Exactly.
Exactly.

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
90. Exactlky - thank you - Hear that DarkPhoenix?
This is why ALL photos and videos must be released.
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think that there must be copies floating around somewhere.
According to testimony, soldiers were exchanging the CDs and DVDs like trophies. Do you think that one of them didn't keep a copy and will sell it for money? They will eventually appear on the Web, because now that they are "classified" the newspapers probably won't dare publish them.

And I think that Chaplain Yee probably had documentation of torture in Guantanamo and that is why the whole thing was brought against him.
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
88. I'm surprised with the number
of people in this forum that no one has been able to access a set of these pix since it seems that someone here knows someone who's in Iraq and has a set. Since they were making copies, someone has sent a set home to someone they know. Who has a set?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
35. The public needs to understand ...
were talking about rape and murder here.
- Republican Senator Lindsey Graham

This fact is the focus of the cover-up: the aim is to be certain that most Americans do not realize the full extent of the problem.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. I agree, without images it is just words
Words can be shrugged off, at least by the war backers and a good deal of fence sitters. Pictures are much harder to rationalize away. Would this debate even be going on if it weren't for the photos that have already made it to the public? And if the debate were going on, would it have one quarter the impact? I doubt it.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
42. They won't even call them "war crimes"
What has our party come to?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. When is someone going to have the fortitude to bring up Geneva 3?
Why is this such a taboo subject? We're in direct violation of an international agreement to which we're party.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
45. Wimps! And not hard to imagine why.
What did you expect? The presumptive nominee is for *increasing* troop commitments for this atrocious war. Given the prize of the oil fields, the party is hardly going to try to weaken support. It will settle for scoring points for the election.

Fortunately, we live in an age of amazing technology. Even if the party lacks the moral will to show Americans what is done with their tax dollars, sooner or later more photos will be leaked.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. The worst of it is Warner, Levin and McCain are listed by Kerry
as top candidates for Sec of Defense. The tide is turning against war no matter who is president however, and they won't be able to maintain this stupidity for much longer. Whoever is PResident will need EU and UN help to get us out of this mess, and they are linking it a more pro-active approach in Israel and the West Bank.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #45
63. I think only a revolution is going to wake them up.
It's coming. No doubt in my mind.

The only question is when, and how will it start?

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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
49. No Dianne.. I HAVEN'T seen enough!
I want every American to see those photos.. you know, the really awful ones.. because I want to know that those photos would move my fellow Americans. I want them to be moved in a way to stop anything like this in the future. I want the American people to remember, vividly, what Bush has gotten us into.. and I want them to forever stand up against the tyrants... I sometimes belive that if the internet had been invented decades ago, the Holocaust would not have happened... had those trying to help the Jews and the Gypsies had access to those kind of photos, and were able to distribute them with a click or see them in their living room, perhaps millions could have been saved. I vehemently oppose witholding those photos. Our government does nothing to stop the release of photos showing Saddam's dead sons, nor the video of an American beheaded. Yet, the flag draped coffins - our tragedy, and American soldiers abusing Iraqi citizens - our shame, will not see the light of day because of spineless politicians like you.
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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
100. Write On Caliphoto!
I agree with you 100%.
I'll never vote for "DiFi" again!
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
54. stuff it, di fi
your opinion is very suspect. you don't represent californians.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #54
64. She is no longer my senator. She's dead to me.
Sadly, so is Boxer, after the Yes on Negroponte.

Un-fucking-forgivable.

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othermeans Donating Member (858 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #64
83. Thanks for that
After Boxer and Feinstein got on the death penalty bandwagon and castigated a San Francisco prosecutor for not asking for the death penalty in a shooting of a policeman. This then brought a prompt investigation by the Republican higher ups and now Locklyer is going to take over the case.

I posted that they were just a couple of phonies.
God did I get flamed!

Feinstein's old man has a multimillion dollar contract for rebuilding Iraq and Boxer seems to go along with almost everything Feinstein does.

Oh well! I have to vote for them though I couldn't stomach a Republican Senator(s).
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
57. They're protecting Bush again
This is so fucking insane.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
59. Odd statement about Warner & Levin...
**The article quoted a political scientist at Rutgers University who compared Warner and Levin to an old married couple. The article continued: Mr. Levin, of Michigan, did not deny it. Were very close, and we totally trust each other, he said, and thats the key to everything."**

What's up with that, are they insinuating something more that colleagues. :shrug:

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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
65. I personally
have NO desire to view any more pictures of the TORTURE committed by our troops on other human beings; however, that is MY choice! Who the hell do these people think they are making that decision for me? I, for one, plan to make a scathing call to Senator Durbin's office in the morning. This is preposterous and I am so sick of the spineless Dems that don't tell this cabal to kiss our PATRIOTIC butts! :mad:

jenn
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
67. "Words can be shrugged off"
Yes! L. Graham has already backed off on his statements.

Both Dems and Repubs want to shove this down the memory hole, ASAP.

It isn't good for the take over of Afghanistan and soon Syria and Iran.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
69. Let see the photos
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
71. In the talking points already
Late last night I heard some far-right wingnut explain how Democrats are exaggerating the contents of photos for political gain. Before you know it, Rush will have convinced his audience that the photos show happy prisoners having a tea party with the guards.
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Alerter_ Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. yes, and they will get away with it unless the truth is shown
Neo-cons are using the coverup for political gain.
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jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
78. There. I said it. And I meant it.
Edited on Sun May-16-04 07:59 AM by jokerman2004
Yes. People in this country need to get over our infantile naivete about the world and the actions of our own government over the last century. Until the world sees, recognizes and emotionally comes to terms with the atrocities that occur when citizens and the press fall asleep at the wheel -- or allow themselves to be bribed or coerced -- Democracy will never have a chance.

We need to recognize that in a Democracy -- WE THE PEOPLE are ultimately responsible for the actions of our elected officials. The 2000 theft of the White House could never have occurred in the first place if Americans were fully cognizant of the profound responsibility we have embraced in voluntarily living under our Democratic constitution.

We need to refuse to be treated like children any longer. The callow childhood of this nation is at an end. This Democracy must either grow up of fail.

Face the horror and the tyranny square on. Burn it into our conscience. Ensure it NEVER happens again.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #78
91. Well said but don't let the word "hope" cloud your vision
Telling others that would listen is the best we could hope for. The people at my work are starting to see I was right all along. The fake pictures of the beheading of that poor man is what took them over the edge. Showing some of them how and why the propaganda was done blew them away. It feels :scared: when you realize how uninfored other people are. They found out how them vulnerable emotions were being used against them. Betrayal is one of the more baser instincts that can keep you from wearing your heart on the sleeve
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
95. The US has never been a Democracy......only a Republic!!!!
We have all been scammed!!!!

The wealthy aristocrats are the only that rule.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
82. I repeat a rumor going around law enforcement there are videos of SRA/
Satanic Ritual Abuse and the cultists are TALKING. SRA cases and investigations are proceeding, worldwide. Thanks for your service to the nation, Col. Aquino you POS.
NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.
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Entente Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
93. We need to poll the Iraquis on this
If they think americans should see it, then we should do so, but if they feel that having americans see their humiliation adds tot he insult, then there is no way I would want to do so.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
94. Every reason why ...........All of Washington nedds to be fired!!!
Scumbags!!!!!!!!!!!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
96. the WSWS thinks the Geneva Conventions are preposterous?
If I wanted to be as dishonest and hyperbolic as this article is, I would use this quote to prove that the WSWS has no regard for internatinal law:

Democratic Senator Charles Schumer of New York put forward an even more preposterous argument in favor of withholding the photographs. Schumer said he had been inclined to release the photos, but changed his mind when the military explained to us that to release would violate their privacy and the Geneva accord. Here the Democratic liberal invoked the Geneva Conventions to sanction the suppression of evidence of massive violations of the self-same Conventions!


The article fails to mention that the International Red Cross actually agrees with this "preposterous" argument.

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. No I disagree that this is part of the geneva convention
suppressing evidence of crimes has nothing to do with them. People are releasing them so the public knows what Bush did, not to humiliate victims. I really don't believe anyone who doesn't want to expose these criminals could possible by a serious dem.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. what about the Red Cross's position?
they agree with the privacy argument.

Is the ICRC a credible authority to you, regarding the Geneva Conventions?



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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
99. So wsws.org believes rape victims should be identified?
Apparently so.
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