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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:57 PM
Original message
WP: Knowledge of Abuse May Go Higher Yet
Sunday, May 16, 2004; Page A01

Army intelligence officers suspected that a Syrian and admitted Jihadist who was detained at Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad knew about the illegal flow of money, arms and foreign fighters into Iraq. But he was smug, the officers said, and refused to talk. So last November, they devised a special plan for his interrogation, going beyond what Army rules normally allowed.

An Army colonel in charge of intelligence-gathering at the prison, spelling out the plan in a classified cable to the top U.S. military officer in Iraq, said interrogators would use a method known as "fear up harsh," which military documents said meant "significantly increasing the fear level in a security detainee." Their aim was to make the 31-year-old Syrian think his only hope in life was to talk, undermining his confidence in what they termed "the Allah factor."

According to the plan, interrogators needed the assistance of military police supervising his detention at the prison, who ordinarily play no role in interrogations under Army regulations. First, the interrogators were to throw chairs and tables in the man's presence at the prison and "invade his personal space."

But then the police were to put a hood on his head and take him to an isolated cell through a gantlet of barking guard dogs; there, the police were to strip-search him and interrupt his sleep for three days with interrogation, barking and loud music, according to Army documents. The plan was sent to Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez.

A spokesman for Sanchez declined comment yesterday, and so it remains uncertain whether the plan was one of 25 requests for unusually tough interrogations that Army officials in Washington have said he approved between October and the present. All involved prolonged isolation of detainees, the officials said on Friday, adding that Sanchez last week issued an order barring requests for approval of particularly severe questioning tactics.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29988-20...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. All I can say is
Edited on Sat May-15-04 10:05 PM by nadinbrzezinski
Daming and how we know where boykin was hidden... Intel, how ironic
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. The details keep coming out...
there is NO way this is not going to continue to grow until it reaches the Oval Office.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. We have to be careful here...
Look at how this is being worded, even Sy Hersch's article had portions of this "tone" in it.

"knew about the illegal flow of money, arms and foreign fighters into Iraq."

"But then the police were to put a hood on his head and take him to an isolated cell through a gantlet of barking guard dogs; there, the police were to strip-search him and interrupt his sleep for three days with interrogation, barking and loud music..."

Oh how totally EVIL!!!

This isn't the kind of torture that I'm concerned about. The real cases of torture, the murder, rape and sodomy, are being buried in all this sleep interruption, loud music and uncomfortable postures.

I'm very worried about this. Americans can so easily decide to forget the written words about the worst of the torture and think that all that was going on was being left naked in a cell with loud music playing.

This is very dangerous. Don't you think?
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It's a demonstration that the approval for "unconventional methods"...
...came from the top down, and contrary to testimony, was NOT the act of a "few isolated bad apples".
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'm speaking politically
Not about long drawn out investigations and where they will end up.

If the American people decide the "torture" of being left naked in a cell while listening to loud music is what this is all about, we lose. That simple.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. then it is our task...
...to make sure that they know that this went beyond the methods used at Waco. Rape, beatings, slayings...we can't actually prove, at this point anyway, that those were done "under orders". But we can demonstrate that there were orders for these techniques, and remind people that many of these detainees treated in this manner were completely innocent, held without formal charges without representation for months at a time. Would they be ok with that technique being used on them? An administration that uses that excuse to justify such methods against a people we are supposedly "liberating" can't be trusted to not use the same methods against the "already liberated" here at home...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Excuse me?
"we can't actually prove, at this point anyway, that those were done "under orders"."

With everything that's been published already, you don't think the rapes and sodomies and beatings were ordered? Well if you don't think so, how do you expect mainstream America out there to think so?

And in the mind of most Americans, these aren't people being picked up for jay-walking. Yes, they will think being left naked in a cell with loud music playing is no big deal.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Actually, no, as Woodwards book says...
..."Rumsfeld doesn't leave fingerprints". Legally speaking, I'm sure they are covered on the technicalities. I'm not saying orders to torture didn't come from the top. Heck, I'm one of those that believes that BushCo isn't above hiring murderous thugs from human rights abusing regimes through corporations that contribute heavily to him, and having them kill American citizens for their political purposes. But I also think they do a good job of covering their tracks in most instances.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Definitely a concern.
We'll need to be writing letters to the editors, and keeping the truth alive however we can, but we must also hope that brave souls with clout (and access) step up to the plate.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Your button
I love it. lol. I can't get the URL for some reason. If you want, I'll submit it to the Kerry forum for use as an avatar. But I need the URL.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Try this:


If that doesn't work, go here:
http://beatniks.typepad.com/photos/randomly_disoriented /

Otherwise, I can email you a higher resolution version.

Glad you like it. :-)
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. I understand whatyou are saying, sns
The foreign fighters in iraq, well folks could look at that and think:terrorists. Which takes all bets off the table

I noticed that in the diary of Joe Ryan, one of the freeper prison guards,who was blogging from Iraq during the times these abuses were taking place.

He kept harping on the "foreign fighters" thing, propping up the admin line, 'prolly justifying the treatment in his mind

NPR had a piece on this , how since 9/11 Americans would be willing to take the gloves off with respects to terrorists, no holds barred.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bumbling Stumbling Stupid Generals? - Or Smart as a Fox General's?
""We've got no proof that a person in authority told them to do this activity," Lt. Gen. Keith Alexander, the Army's deputy chief of staff, said on May 11."

This same General Alexander also said that he heard of the Red Cross Report only a week ago. This was at the hearing last week. So Alexander is either covering up, lying or he doesn't know what's going on in his command.

What I find strange in this Washington Post Article is that never once were the Civilian contractors talked about or their roles in the scheme of things. Why?

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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Higher, like right to the door of the oval office!
Absolutely no doubt about it. Bush had a hand in this shit. He is real in touch with prisons/executions. Why else who there be such a perverse interest in setting up a bunch of new rules and a place like gitmo. The bastard is really in to fucking with prisoners.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. Where Rummy blew it was he lost control of his animals.
That, I think, is what he's vulnerable to.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. We know where all the pointing fingers will lead to.
To 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. The "temporary home" of BeelzeBush who is about to get evicted. His lease will expire on October 31, 2004.

Please go to the thread, 'Rumsfeld approved of harsh tactics'. This should hopefully be the end of Raging Rummy.

I thought it was interesting to read about Sivits, who will plead guilty but will rat out his co-conspirators. He said, "oh no, we thought all this up on our own. If our superiors knew about this, there would be hell to pay".

Yeah, right. Rumsfeld had a little "talk" with Sivits before he's about to appear in court.
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. Lie Detector Bush just like FBI/CIA agents normal get.
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