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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:05 PM
Original message
Bill aims to put God-related mottoes in schools

Bill aims to put God-related mottoes in schools



Saturday, May 15, 2004
Julie Carr Smyth
Plain Dealer Bureau

Columbus
Ohio schoolchildren could take tests, eat lunch and watch assemblies under "God," if a bill up for a House committee vote next week becomes law.
The legislation calls for the state and national mottoes respectively, "With God All Things Are Possible" and "In God We Trust" to hang in every classroom, cafeteria and auditorium of every public and charter school in the state.

State Rep. Keith Faber of Celina, the bill's Republican sponsor, said the mandate would not apply unless the signs were donated.
Faber said that the intent was to inspire "a historical context discussion with regard to the founding fathers and these mottoes" and that placing them liberally around schools would assure "they aren't stuck in some obscure corner."

More: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/ba...


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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. I am so fed up with all these fundies. They do not care about
any good for our country or the world. I hope the rapture comes soon.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Will they be putting
a poster saying "Blessed Be" next to them?
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. I will never understand Christians
How they can cry about being oppressed while they are ramming their religion down everyone elses throat I just don't know. What purpose does this bill have other being a giant middle finger to all non-Christians?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. They have been taught that the US is a "Christian" nation
They do not care about other cultures.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. Washington, Adams, Jefferson,Franklin, Madison
WERE NOT CHRISTIANS!

These are usually the guys that people talk about when they say founding fathers. I can't believe they are allowed to get away with this revisionism.

I was raised a fundie, and I can tell you the evangelizing is directly inspired by promises of riches and crowns and thrones in heaven. The base materialism that describes heaven ("streets of gold", etc) appeals to poor people, I guess, and your stack of wealth in the afterlife is directly affected by how many souls you win, or try to win, to Jesus. It's all about the posthumous benjamins, when you get down to it.

Ohio is also probably suffering from an over abundance of fundies because so many super poor people migrated there from Kentucky and other parts of appalachia, exchanging rural poverty and the isolation ( which religious fundamentalism requires) that goes with it, for factory jobs in the cities.

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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. They should try heaven on earth
Mark Twain's heaven http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm
(heaven described at "Letter II")

Everyone singing tho most stink at it, all playing harps tho most have no musical talent, all constantly praying tho on earth most can only stand to pray a few minutes a day. So it's a nonstop church service but with this horrible nonstop noise going constantly.

And it's lacking the things man loves most - discovery, creativity, competition & sex.

Of course Twain describes it better than I.

Anyway, these churches should get themselves a bunch of harps and try it for 48 hours or so.

Any idea how they plan to spend the posthumous benjamins?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I worry about their insecurity.
How weak is their faith if it can stand no competition, no disagreement, no alternative.

They feel a screaming need to remove all temptation which only says they are endlessly tempted and don't have the strength to withstand it.

It's a poor faith that crumbles when placed next to any other faith. And yet they seem sure theirs will.

That's just pitiful. And panicky.

And panicky people are dangerous.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
50. Bullies are always hopelessly insecure n/t
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. evangelizing is an integral part of Christendom .
Unlike the other monotheist faiths BTW.
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kysrsoze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
56. Once again, lumping fundies in with all other Christians. What's new?
Edited on Sun May-16-04 05:48 PM by kysrsoze
That's as dumb a stance as lumping all Muslims in with extremist Muslims, or talking about how "concerned about money the Jews are." Guess what - some atheists are assholes too.

The whole point of religious freedom is that it shouldn't matter what religion you are, or whether you have a religion at all. Everyone should have equal rights, and that does NOT include the right to slap some religious symbol/words on a public building.

Please try to keep your personal agenda out of the discussion.
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why can't these people understand that these are *public* schools?
Children of many faiths, or without any beliefs, attend along with Christian children.

If people want a God-centered education, there are plenty of private religious schools that serve that purpose.
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Dawn, they do understand that.
Edited on Sat May-15-04 01:42 PM by nownow
There are enormous numbers of evangelicals, here in Ohio. They believe it's their duty to evangelize -- to 'spread the gospel' to everyone, far and wide. I grew up in an evangelical church in Ohio, and I know that it was insinuated to me, growing up, that it was my fault if some of the heathens in the world didn't hear the 'good news' about Jesus. It wasn't my fault if they didn't accept the message -- throwing a sop to the freewill my church claimed it believed humans had -- but if I didn't tell every single person I met about the 'mercy of Christ' I was as likely to go to hell as the heathens who'd never heard it.

Hanging it on the wall absolves them of not (edit) directly evangelizing every single kid in every single school. It's more practical. And less likely to get little Christian kids beat up on the playground.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. I grew up in rural Ohio and I witnessed what nownow describes.
I saw many of my friends and classmates raised with these beliefs. In my opinion, it is a form of emotional and psychological child abuse. These children are told by their parents, pastors, and every important adult in their lives that they are always just one misstep away from eternal damnation. Any "wrong" thought, comment, idea, or friend can put you over the line and into the clutches of the devil, who seems to be a far more potent presence in the lives of many fundamentalists than Jesus.

Can you imagine fearing that you will be damned to hell if you fail to convert others to your parents' particular religion? It's usually not enough to simply convince people to become Christians - your recruits have to belong to particular, special sects, usually non-mainstream Protestant churches, in order for the conversion to "count."

I think it is about time that social service organizations, state legislators, and local officials started questioning the fitness of parents who raise their children in what are essentially cults. Rather than caving into the screamers at school board meetings and town council meetings, maybe local governments need to start pushing back and protecting children.
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Philostopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. It's certainly a well-honed form of psychological conditioning.
I'm agnostic now, for what it's worth, and finally admitted I was about ten years ago. It was difficult, after twenty years of constant marinating in it, but I'm at peace with what I believe now (or don't believe, I guess is more accurate).

My church wasn't especially 'out of the mainstream' as these things go. But there was no question we were to consider ourselves responsible for telling every single human being we ever encountered about Jesus, whether s/he accepted what we were saying or not. Incidentally, my church believed in full immersion baptism as the only way to heaven, too, and chastised other churches for things like sprinkling and believing the immersion wasn't necessary for salvation. And you didn't even want to get them started on Catholics.

I came to hate the simmering hate below the surface of what they were telling me, that's one thing that turned me away from organized religion altogether. The thing that finally turned me away for good was when the minister asked me about the Eastern philosophy class I was taking in college, and I mentioned something about Zen Buddhism being interesting when contrasted with Christianity. He smirked and nodded, and he said, 'well, it's only interesting until you consider they're all going to hell.'

I didn't necessarily believe they were, and I think that started me on the road to ceasing to believe in hell at all. Because if he was going to heaven, I preferred the thought of frying for eternity.

But that's personal, and I'm not anti-religion -- I just don't think anybody knows the answer, and I'm comfortable with the spiritual ambiguity. Much more comfortable, for that matter, than I was with what I believed the first 20 years of my life.
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. good for you!
Edited on Sun May-16-04 03:59 PM by dawn
I'm glad you were able to escape that sort of thinking, and are still able to not be anti-religion. It just doesn't work for you.

I was told the same thing about Buddhists by a Catholic priest in CCD. It's what prompted me to leave the church.
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Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
49. They seem to expect to find evil everywhere
Thankfully my parents didn't subject me to this kind of abuse growing up, but two of my sisters have raised their children in a Baptist church. It seems they are always looking for evil, or devil's work, in movies, TV, music, and just about everything else. It certainly doesn't seem like a healthy way to grow up. One of the kids saw the light once he got out of the environment, and is now someone who can speak intelligently about many religions and see other viewpoints with an open mind. I still hold out hope for some of the other nieces and nephews.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. I never thought of it like that.
Edited on Sat May-15-04 05:33 PM by MGKrebs
They just don't want to go to the trouble of actually proselytizing. This way they can do it wholesale!

edited because I have no reason to know how to spell "proselytizing" off the top of my head.
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
51. Yeah, it's like that here in Orange County, Ca., too.
But they can't be allowed to get away with it. I feel sorry for those kids!
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Shameful.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. and Allahuakbar, and
several hymns to Apollo, Zeus, and maybe a little something to Vishnu while you are at it.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. And Kali.
Kali's pretty big these days, even if no one says so.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. Krishna and Kali
and don't forget a quote from Darwin for those who believe only in Science! :)
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. I attended public school in Ohio
....In the early 60's my 4th grade teacher told us that God hated the russians.
I believed that until I graduated the 5th grade. By that point I was probably smarter than my 4th grade teacher.
Are those "the good ol' days" to which the conservatives wish to return.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. I attended public school in Ohio in the late '70s
and a private (beatnik hippy) school earlier during the elementary years. I think all my teachers back then would have rolled their eyes at the absurd suggestions being made by their reps today (those are the "good ol' days" I'd like to return to)!

What a long, sad slide into the dark ages my home state has taken!
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. Beyond the issue of US becoming a Theocracy, I worry about 'historical'
reasons for doing things. Historically, women, people of color and in some cultures, non-landowners didn't get to vote. So because something has historical precedent, we should accept it? I don't think so.

Historically, there were feudal lords and everybody else was SOL.

Historically, there were cultures without any written law.

Yeah, let us put things in a historical context: Civilization is supposed to improve upon itself or what is the point of being civilized? How about we all retreat into our caves and worship our personal fertility deities? Now, there is a historical context for these theocratic bozos to deal with.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. They just want "us" to oppose it, then they can say
that we are godless heathens, just like the terrists.

And when I say "us" and "we", I mean any of us who would be inclined to oppose this.
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Invalence1 Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
45. Is that a real button?
Are there more? Where? I do SO want one!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. We must strongly condemn these heretics!

The Ten Commandments clearly forbid believers to "Use the Name for a Vain Purpose."

No purpose could be more vain than political gain.

Faber proposes to trivialize religion by turning it into mere public school slogans. This can only drive children away from the True Faith!

We separated Church and State to prevent opportunists like Faber from inflicting their blasphemous views on others.

:)
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Very well said...
Thank you and Amen!
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joefree1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. How about this religious saying from Thomas Paine
"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion, but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."-- Thomas Paine


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think they need to look closer at the founding fathers' attitudes
Particularly Thomas Jefferson:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagations of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

We pay taxes for our children to attend school. Whether the signs are donated or not is irrelevant. They would be on public property.

With God all things are possible? Oh, I see. That explains our great success in Iraq.
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peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. When prayer was ruled unconstitutional in public schools
President Kennedy replied to the unpopular decision by stating that the remedy, rather than a constitutional amendment, be a renewed commitment by Americans to pray at home, in their churches, and with their families.thus, as it should bewise words that I wont be hearing any politician utter today.regardless of party.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. Quote from some book I read once....
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
-Matthew 6

But what do I know?
:shrug:
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Welcome to DU, livinginphotographs !!!!
That quote does get the fundies spluttering! :toast:
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. that should be part of the lords prayer
which immediately follows it.

But Matthew was the beginning of the end for me. "Pastor? why do we care about all this begat begat begat begat joseph if he didn't begat jesus?"
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Thanks livinginphotographs! I was looking for that
quote just the other day. :yourock:

And welcome to DU! :hi:
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. I swear to God
:P
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Danieljay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. In Texas..my sister teaches and it is required of..
Edited on Sat May-15-04 03:10 PM by Danieljay
all students to recite the pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the Texas flag, followed by a 60 second moment of silence. It isn't optional.

She says the schools are severely underfunded, requiring out of pocket expenses for teachers. She also says that drug use is rampant....she's just North of Dallas.

So, the question is... IS our children learning? I don't think they is.
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Invalence1 Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. Ain't chu gotit yet?
They ain't sposeta!

<If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.> Thomas Jefferson
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. these are "the state and national mottoes respectively"
The fight may be in the schools, but is the solution there?

Faber said that the intent was to inspire "a historical context discussion with regard to the founding fathers and these mottoes"

Dude, the founding fathers were long dead when these motto's came up in 1956 and 1959.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?...
http://www.worthynews.com/news-features/ohio-motto-2.ht...
http://www.geocities.com/cadfile/humanism/motto/mottode...

The court refers to a national tradition of "ceremonial deism".

I think a better approach might be to start getting St. Valentines day kicked out of school. They can have a nice 'historical context discussion' on that 'tradition' and maybe decide a generic 'god' is not as good an idea as they thought.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. "In God We Trust" has been on coins since 1864
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mrbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. "in god we trust" was first used a on united states coin in 1864
The "motto" first appeared on the two-cent piece in 1864. Its presence on the new coin might have been largely due to the increased religious sentiment during the civil war crisis.

It took a long time for the "motto" to end up on the rest of us coinage.

It's not on the indian head cent (1859-1909). Didn't show up till 1909 on the lincoln cent.

Not on the buffalo nickel (1913-1938). Some strange word "liberty" instead. The "motto" first time on a nickle was the jefferson nickle in 1938.

The first dime was the mercury in 1916.

Paper money didn't have the new logo until 1956.





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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. Great idea!
I would also suggest the occasional "Allahu Akbar" And "Bismillah" poster placed in prominant locations on school grounds.

But, considering the religion of the bushler cabal, a better poster would feature a picture of a hundred dollar bill with the caption in bold:
"WORSHIP YOUR GOD"

Or would that just be too blatant?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Er-Rahman Er-Rahim
Good point about the money, Brother! I'd like to see Mercy and Compassion practiced by Bushco rather than hanging up signs in schools.
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. Religious dumbshits!
We have to oppose all dumbshittery, wherever it erupts.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. I'm officially an athiest or maybe a agnostic..
These people have pushed away every last ounce of Christianity I had from my childhood days as a guest in all of my friend's churches. I never found my own religion.. though I enjoyed Unitarian quite a bit. Why don't these idiots leave us alone???? Put their precious spawns in private school and leave the real schools for the thinking children.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
37. OUTLAW THE CRUSADES/JIHAD. -oh...read my sig. quote. shit...
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
39. Ohio is hemorrhaging jobs but they are worried about God
how about working on something that would help their constituents?

I really wonder about some representatives...
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AlFrankenFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
40. Excuse me while I vomit
I mean I'm all for religious expression but there is a separation between church and state you know...
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TexasBushwhacker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. Since it's all about historical context
perhaps they'd like to include this quote from Thomas Jefferson:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
43. How about a motto that has something to do with applying
yourself to learn things in the interest of the betterment of mankind
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I vote for "Blessed are the Peacemakers" and 'Love Your Enemies" nt
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leetrisck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
48. Maybe we should put algebra & geometry
lessons up in all Churches.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
53. Hmm...
what would be the reaction if signs reading "There is No God" were put up in every classroom?
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 04:39 PM
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55. American Taliban alert!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:46 PM
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57. More Church Welfare
Apparently, some Christians are so frightened that their religion can no longer compete in the marketplace of ideas that they are desirous of welfare in order to propogate their ill-fated religious beliefs via government sponsored religious indoctrination.
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