Private disgrace (Lynndie England)

[Snazzy]

Private disgrace
The baffling turnabout of a small-town soldier seen in the Iraqi prison-abuse photos

BY JOE HABERSTROH
STAFF CORRESPONDENT (NY NEWSDAY)

May 6, 2004


FORT ASHBY, W.Va. -- The front license plate holder on Kenneth England's Chevrolet pickup truck holds a card: "Proud Parents of a U.S. soldier." The family's porch on their single-wide trailer is festooned with ribbons - yellow ribbons, and also red, white and blue ones in honor of their daughter's service in Iraq.

The patriotic scene stands in stark contrast to the graphic photographs of their daughter, Pfc. Lynndie England, 21, posing with naked and hooded Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison.

...

Lynndie England apparently is being detained at Fort Bragg, N.C., and unlike her boyfriend in the 372nd, Spc. Charles Graner, 35, of Uniontown, Pa., she has not been criminally charged with maltreatment and indecent acts.

...

Lynndie's family admits to some bitterness. To them, the apparent humiliations inflicted on the Iraqi prisoners pale when compared to the burning and mutilation of four U.S. contractors last month. Kenneth and Terrie England say the activities shown on the notorious picture would be justified if they resulted in intelligence that saved American lives.

....

http://www.newsday.com/news/yahoo/ny-uscumb063789512may...

[Kukesa]

1. CBS covered it too,

I just saw a report on CBS Evening News and I couldn't finish my dinner.

Her mother states that Lynndie is a good soldier and was just following orders.

Haven't I heard that somewhere before -- ya know, like Nazi Germany?

[TrogL]

3. That's called "the Nuremburg defence"

They hung people at Nuremburg.

[saigon68]

7. The women jailers of Bergen Belsen

The women jailers of Bergen Belsen



IRMA GRESE center HERTA BOTHE w/smirk on right

After the war survivors provided extensive details of murders, tortures, cruelties and sexual excesses
engaged in by Irma Grese during her years at Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. They testified to her
acts of pure sadism, beatings and arbitrary shooting of prisoners, savaging of prisoners by her
trained and half starved dogs, to her selecting prisoners for the gas chambers.
She habitually wore heavy boots and carried a whip and a pistol. She used both physical and emotional
methods to torture the camp's inmates and enjoyed shooting prisoners in cold blood. She beat some of
the women to death and whipped others mercilessly using a plaited whip.
After the Kommandant of Bergen-Belsen, Josef Kramer, Irma Grese was the most notorious
defendant in the Belsen Trial, held between September 17 and November 17, 1945. Grese was
convicted and sentenced to be hanged. She was executed on December 13, 1945.

The notorious Herta Bothe became a camp guard and soon acquired a reputation as
a sadist who beat prisoners without mercy. She had a good time shooting at weak
female prisoners carrying food containers from the kitchen to the block with her pistol.
And she often beat sick girls with a wooden stick. After the war Herta Bothe was
charged with having committed war crimes. At the Bergen-Belsen Trial she got
imprisonment for 10 years.

[Barrett808]

12. Thanks, Saigon. That's a keeper. n/t

[frankieT]

95. reminds me of Ilsa

she wolf of the SS, the classic bis movie of the 70's...
but with a Jerry Springer Show casting.

[RapidCreek]

56. yea gee seing as how she's from below the Mason Dixon

line I suppose it would be perfectly exectable to her parents if they were payed a call by the Black Panthers and hung from a light pole in front of their trailer house.

RC

[Leezamarie]

65. and the Nuremberg evidence against some of those hanged was weak ,

contradictory or uncorroborated

[shugah]

92. what do you mean?

could you elaborate, please? your assertion on this particular thread makes me wonder what you are saying? i would appreciate clarification.

on edit: nuremberg for most reflects the trials of the top nazi's - goering, speer, et al. the trials did go far deeper, but at the end of the day, "i was just following orders," was not a justification for committing horrible crimes. i've read many transcripts from nuremberg. i think, despite some of the political agendas present there, that nuremberg was a noble attempt to right wrongs that prior seemed to go unnoticed during war. it wasn't perfect, but it set some standards.

[TrogL]

2. The end justifies the means

typical Freeper thinking.

[TahitiNut]

28. Yes, indeed. Couple that with the pathologically codependent ...

... thinking that somehow the victim is responsible for the torturer's behavior and you've got the most rampant emotional illness in our country today.

"It's their own fault." "They only have themselves to blame." "They deserved it." "I had no choice."

These are the rationalizations of a person who accepts almost no responsibility for their own behavior. In giving away even the power over their own behavior, there is absolutely no degree of power that they can wield over others that can make up for this powerlessness.

I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all, of these soldiers were themselves victims of at least mildly abusive parents. I'd be willing to bet they had parents who habitually answered "Because I said so! That's why!"

Oh, you say that's very common? Yes, I agree. If that doesn't scare you, you just haven't gotten it yet.

We can read this kind of thinking on DU daily. Appallingly clueless and more a part of the problem than of the solution.

[Nashyra]

81. They are mimicking their commander in chief

the *'s attitude directly gave these people permission to do what they did. That is no excuse, however anyone capable of this behavior might be detoured if they thought they would be imprisoned. The * knew what he was doing, he encouraged these idiots to do his dirty work.

[kiahzero]

4. Torture does not "result in intelligence"

Just like poor questioning techniques of children, torture yields the answers the subject thinks you want to hear.

[lovedems]

6. Yeah, that stood out to me too.

Sorry, I know it is their daughter and the desire to make excuses for her is strong but the ends don't justify the means. The ends were wrong and the means were worse.

That is kind of pathetic.

[Leezamarie]

66. even if it did result in intelligence it is bestial and wrong

[Snazzy]

5. Awesome double entendre headline, isn't it? n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. Screw them and their denial.

Americans don't do that. Full stop. We do not torture. We bring torturers to justice.

I have no patience for people with such apparent denial. 1+1!=2 in this case.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

9. at least now we know

where she got her sense of ethics and humanity from.

Way to go mom and dad!

[liarliartieonfire]

13. Ya and a happy moms day to the mrs. So proud..so damned proud !

How does the rest of the neighborhood feel about the Englands darling daughter?

Would they ask her to babysit their children? Speak at their schools?

She is, at this point, NO different than those who burned and mutilated the Americans.
It is based in the same HATE and complete lack of respect for human life.
Orders to kill the enemy can do damaging things to one's value system, I realize. But to be seen taking such glee in the act of torture, is right down there with the Nazi supremacy mentality.

It is THAT serious.

[kikiek]

20. Probably responsible for increased violence against our troops

No doubt the people of Iraq knew what was going on there, and responded with increased violence. The Red Cross knew for months, and tried to stop it. Us being angry and speaking out about the prisoner treatment doesn't endanger our troops. Behavior like that does. The month of April proves it. What they did to the contractors bodies proves it. They may be responsible for more than torturing Iraqi's.

[paranoid floyd]

36. Excellent point

Timing could be everything in this case. Is it possible that the Iraqi people became aware of this humiliation of their countryman, and after getting no assurances that it would stop decided to take matters into their own hands? Strike out at your enemy, showing your anger in the most vilest of ways - dragging the dead through the streets. I by no means condone what happened to the contractors in Fallujah, but I think everyone there has just freakin' snapped.

[Leezamarie]

67. She is different. Those "contractors" were armed mercenaries

these prisoners were helpless and there was a "duty of care" imposed on the occupation forces by International Law. These mercenaries, whether American or no, have no legal rights and it is not a crime for Iraqis to kill them. Mercenaries are aware that they operate outside the law and willingly risk their live for money.

[Disturbed]

14. Pathetic

You know damn well there are millions like these folk in Amerika. They are Bushco's debased.

She isn't charged yet? WTF? I wonder if she will do some prison time?
I wonder if any higher ups than even Gen. Kapinsky (s) will do any prison time?

The humiliation events are the lower level torture that is being promoted by Bushco and the Media to keep the high level torture downplayed.

[Heidi]

116. Am I the only one . . .

who sees this whole thing playing out and wonders what we, as a culture, have been doing (or not doing) that yields this sort of barbarism?

One of my dearest friends is a Vietnam vet who suffers from PTSD; he remarked to me the other day that if we think Vietnam yielded a lot of PTSD victims, that number will pale in comparison to the psychological fallout of Iraq, on both sides. He reasons that the generation of U.S. troops fighting this war is entirely different than the generation that fought the Vietnam war.

In general, my friend says, the young men in Iraq were raised on combat video games (some U.S. Armed Forces websites even offer online combat games, I'm told), Ritalin, TV and the Internet, and those influences can make a world of difference in one's humanity and ability to deal with stressful, real-life scenarios. Further, he maintains that these cumulative cultural influences have, in effect, groomed a generation of young people to be used as pawns in the Right's power-grabbing endeavors.

I don't know whether my friend is right, but his argument seems worthy of consideration.

[Snazzy]

117. You're, by far, not the only one

And welcome to DU!



I'm doing a project for the local American Legion post, and was frankly amazed that not only can I talk openly about what a screwed up situation we have in Iraq and in this country, but most agree.

Maybe this post (in New York) is an exception--I don't know. Kept telling myself not to get into politics when I go over there, thinking I'll open the wrong can of worms (for my purposes there--I open cans of worms regularly), but a vast majority seem more pissed than me. (The commander very sincerely shook my hand for being a former Greenpeace guy--so maybe it is a weird post).

Your friend is onto something. What better way to demonize "the enemy" than to turn the fantasy of a video game into literal reality. Remember that flashy Marine recruiting ad, few years back, that had a video game of slaying a dragon morphing into a modern marine? Now there's an Army video game. And it's extraordinarily popular I hear. I think this is one of the most brazen and manipulative recruiting strategies the military has yet developed. The message is to visualize yourself in the game (join up!), to dehumanize the opponents and to not realize any consequences (game over? start over). Which in the view of DoD may be the real qualities they want in a killer, maybe an effective killer thinks just like that.

I wondered, for example, when Malvo was gunning down people in the Washington area, what inspiration he had from this wave of games (it's not just the military--seems like all the top games are no longer about killing aliens--also replete with sniper weapons).

But how come I can play the same games, (guiltily, perhaps) enjoy them, and remain a pacifist? Seems to me you friend is on the money with "cumulative cultural influences"--bad schooling, messed up families, messed-up economic opportunities, and lack of a guard-dog media offering some facts instead of PR and more conditioning. I worry about kids facing the flip-burgers, prison or military situation as our country becomes ever more divided by money and opportunities. How much of our volunteer forces fit that bill? How many there now believe Saddam did 9/11 and they ought to treat or slaughter Iraqi's like the space aliens they slaughtered as kids?

[Heidi]

118. Thanks for the welcome, Snazzy . . .

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I'm very interested in the connections between events, trends and history, and as American living in Europe, I'm more than a bit frustrated to be observing this stuff from so far away. It's just amazing to me how many Americans now seem genuinely afraid for their reputations, their businesses, indeed their lives, in the sake of 9-11. We're becoming the culture that fear built, and I've long believed that fear is the single greatest limiter of human potential. It's a lot to think about, but I'm glad to have a place to discuss these issues with other like-minded folks.

Thanks for the welcome.

[Snazzy]

120. Cheers. At least you get the objective, or world, take

I was blessed with being overseas for most of the OJ period. Came back and was amazed that most people in the US had little idea of what was going on around the world.

Should also mention that I caught a lot of hell for just being an American then. Can't imagine how bad that is today and will be for the foreseeable future.

[The Stranger]

10. Except that the Iraqis haven't tortured any P.O.W.'s while the U.S. has

murdered at least two P.O.W.'s, and possibly more. Jessica Lynch was given medical treatment. The recent releasee/escapee was treated well. It is the U.S. alone that is torturing P.O.W.'s.

The mercenaries who were killed and dragged through the streets were the victims of a mob of people that have been bombed, starved, invaded, occupied, gassed and now bombed again on a daily basis.

[MindPilot]

11. Oh yeah AMERICAN lives are SO much more precious...

I got as far as "single-wide trailer". Probably just another batch of inbred, mouth-breathing, pasty-white baptists.

[pacifictiger]

17. Now I should not have laughed so hard

but that's quite a mental picture you paint.
Sadly it may not be too far from the truth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. ALL STOP COLLECTIVELY

and think for a second... not to justify her, by the way... never will

But I sugest all read Hannah Arendt's "the Banality of Evil."

After that any of Jay Lifton's books on the SS.

Then Vanhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners."

Then find the experiments made in the fifties, in particular the Stanford Experiment, and the other on authority.

After that ask yourselves, if you came from a small town (or large one for that matter) and you are put in similar situation... would you be an extraordinary individual (the one who reported it to the chain and started the ball rolling), or the ordinalry individual who will use the Nuremberg Defense (which is NO DEFENSE?)

Now this came to be because of a culture that allowed for this to happen and Rumsfeld's declaration that Prisoners were not subject to the Geneva Convention, which is "antiguated" is where all this starts... and continues with the CiC, who'se apology came today because it is getting hot.

So think will you be that exraordinary individual in similar circimstances or just extraordinarily ordinary?

By the way, some about my past. As a Red Cross Medic I have been honored at seeing much that I will take to the grave with me, about the horrors that humans can do to others. I have written reports to those above me, after listening to people who have faced torture, sexual and otherwise... and I have taken care of victims of the worst of physical torture in the back of my ambulance, one of whom died in my care.

Worst of this, is... I will take their names and faces with me to the grave... as I cannot tell you more details than this.

One thing in common, this is a culture that is allowed to flourish

It is said, evil flourishes when men and women of good conscience refuse to speak out. Time that we all speak out... with even more force and with a stronger voice.

[kiahzero]

16. That's been my point all along

May have to read "The Banality of Evil."

I was actually bitched out in one thread for pointing out that the institution is more to blame in this case than the individuals in question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. They are equaly guilty

which is what is nuts about the wholoe thing.

Some for obeying orders, (Nuremberg Defesen) others for encouraging this.

Legally they are equally guilty, but what they are tryng to do is give people a face to identify with the evil PfC Lyndie England, and protecting Donald Rumsfeld.

[kiahzero]

19. I don't think it's fair to put a soldier in such an untenable situation

And then condemn them for failing to be a saint. And if it's not fair, it can't be called "justice."

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. They have to be punished to an extent

but their punishment should not and cannot be as serious as the
ones who put them there...

I know it is nuts... but it is quite clearly stated in Internatioal Humanitarian Law.

Those troops will be taken care of by the US Military System... but here is the problem...

We need a war crimes tribunal for those in charge and it goes pretty high, as I doubt we are capable of trying them now... and those trials have to be not only opened, but they have to pre-empt every television station programing. Yes Middle America needs to see what has been done in our name, yours and mine

[kiahzero]

22. Oh, certainly

They should be kicked out of the military, posthaste. I don't think they should face criminal charges, though.

I agree that the people in charge are much more accountable than the low-level people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. No they have to be tried by a General Court Matial

the UCMJ is pretty clear but what they are trying to do is to stop
with these six... see we are doing something, you wanna bet Rummy will testify to this effect TOMORROW?

[Just Me]

23. LET'S TRY "SUPPLY-SIDE" JUSTICE!!!

This "trickle-down" shit is the height of evil being showered upon all people.

It is way past time to hold "leaderships" responsible for their "trickle-down" perception.

Humanity does NOT deserve to be pissed on by these empty-hearted, depraved freaks!!!

*blush* just my point of view.

[progressivebydesign]

27. I don't agree with your fuzzy thinking..

.. you act as though the situation they're in excuses them for their vile behavior. I'm sorry.. If I was drafted to that place, I STILL would never, never do those things... AND I would not pose happily with those people I humiliated and tortured. "act like Saints"!!??? I'd be completely happy if they acted like HUMANS!

[Leezamarie]

68. Hold on there! Just because others are also culpable or more culpable

does not make her innocent. If she is guilty and punished that is justice. If others are guilty and not punished, justice has failed in their cases but not in hers. By your reasoning it is unjust to punish a contract killer, if you do not have enough evidence to convict the person who hired him/her.

[Barrett808]

29. Men of conscience cited in the Taguba report:

4. (U) The individual Soldiers and Sailors that we observed and believe should be favorably noted include:

a. (U) Master-at-Arms First Class William J. Kimbro, US Navy Dog Handler, knew his duties and refused to participate in improper interrogations despite significant pressure from the MI personnel at Abu Ghraib.

b. (U) SPC Joseph M. Darby, 372nd MP Company discovered evidence of abuse and turned it over to military law enforcement.

c. (U) 1LT David O. Sutton, 229th MP Company, took immediate action and stopped an abuse, then reported the incident to the chain of command.

http://www.antiwar.com/article.php?articleid=2479

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I have the full report and it is not easy reading

been going over it, and it is very hard to digest just how extensive this is.

Glad to see the troops who DID their duty, got a mention. All of them should get more than just a commendation and well done. Those are American Heroes and Extraordinary men

[Leezamarie]

69. So a decent American is a hero now! I am flabbergasted.

These people of good character deserve to be recognised as such. Medals and commendations would apply had they intervened and stopped or attempted to stop abuse of prisoners.

[SemperEadem]

107. well, at least someone demonstrated leadership skills

and didn't allow themselves to be led by those they knew were participating in actions beyond the scope of their warrant.

[legin]

33. Great point

One of the things this war is about is it's a war to humiliate the Arabs, make them eat dirt for 911, show them who is boss.

It is not stated openly, but you can feel it in the air. It's why Jerry Fallwell can go on mainstream TV and call Mahommad a terrorist with no come back what so ever. It's an attitude that permeates down through society.

So whilst these Lyndie Englands may be complete arseholes, they are only privates, if there was any leadership above them that frowned on this sort of behaviour it might have curtailed it. But there isn't, in fact the leadership above is working to exactly the same goals (without getting it's hands dirty) and that goes all the way up to bush*.

These photos would never have got out under Negroponte that's for sure, that's his speciality, and it is why he has been drafted into his new job.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

34. It CAN happen here?

It seems thats what your implying?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. It can happen anywhere, when men and women of conscience

refuse to take a stand, and it is time we all do...

Yes even the Holocaust could have been stopped

[pop goes the weasel]

43. it *has* happened here

It happens in jails and prisons and mental institutions and long-term care "homes" all the time. As members of the same culture that makes excuses for the continuation of institutionalized brutality here, we should not be surprised when it happens abroad under our flag. And we should especially not be surprised that it happens under the regime of the same man who mocked a death row inmate. The abuse of power goes all the way to the top.

[nodehopper]

48. yeah, I've been thinking of Milgram shock experiments

lately

[The Stranger]

54. The law is the law. If they violated international law, then they need to

be prosecuted for those violations. Any arguments of peer pressure or culture can be discussed after conviction and in sentencing, if necessary.

[sandnsea]

64. Dehumanize, then destroy

Or dehumanize and ignore. It is interesting that there's plenty of dehumanizing going on on this board in regards to these soldiers in order for people to be able to thoroughly destroy them. It is easier than looking at a whole systemic culture that creates a mindset that could do these things in the first place. Kind of like the mindset that says it's okay to spike trees in order to save them, regardless of the killing that might happen as a result. The logger has to be dehumanized before the tree spiker can act. No group is immune.

Recognizing that these particular acts were atrocious, but the pattern seems the same.

[duckie]

102. FYI

your analogy is lacking at best. tree spiking doesn't dehumanize anyone, especially not in the way that you suggest. the spikes are put in above where the logger should be cutting. it's meant to mess things up at the lumber mill. the whole point in almost every incident I know of that tactic being used is that a communiqué is sent out after the forest is spiked not only the the company who is logging, but also to mills and often news papers who will publicize the spikes so that no mill will saw the trees, making logging an area not profitable. even if a spiked tree does make it to a mill, there is almost no chance that the spike will kill or injure someone. it will most likely break the blade on the saw. in most mills, the saw operator sits behind a shield for safety reasons besides spiked trees. honestly, your parallel might be nice try at linked tactics of people from different political backgrounds, and it could in be an ernest critique on your part, but it's just flat out wrong. what you have said goes against the core beliefs of many people and groups who do environment activism on that level. The Earth LIberation Front, one of the most militant environmental activist groups out there, specifically states that their members must take all precautions that they possibly can to ensure that NO ONE, including workers of logging companies, gets injured or killed. please, if you're going to make statements about commonly misunderstood activities, groups or values make sure that you understand them. also, please do not take this as a personal attack, or an attack on the general gist of your comment, because I do agree with the idea behind your post.

[frankieT]

96. good observation

death & hate culture results in death & horror when you let it express itself without any constraints.
just remember Apocalypse Now.

[Disturbed]

24. Bullshit!!!!

Any soldier can refuse an unlawful order.
I know this because I was in the Army and refused lawful
oders and I damn well would have refuse unlawful ones.
In fact, not bragging but I stopped the blanket party of
a soldier in progress by turning on the lights in the barracks they all ran back upstairs but one and I challenged him right on
the spot. He said that they would get me later and left.
I told him fine but if that happens I will beat the fuck out of you
in the daylight. Those cowards never showed up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. I know hat, you know that,

You have a right, indeed a duty to disosbey an ilegal order, this is why the Nuremberg Defense will not work and why they should face an Article 32 and a General Court Martial

But those in charge are far more responsible for this than the troops, especially the low level troops. You were in the Army, you know a low ranking trooper will jump, say yes Sir and eat glass... now the Sergeant, he is the first one who should have known more than better and what about the Brigadier, she is GETTING A PASS...

By the way, you disobeyed orders on a barracks party... no comparison here... for the record I disobyed a direct order from a Colonel that could have gotten me killed....

Care to compare notes by the way?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

37. excellent point about change of command.

now the Sergeant, he is the first one who should have known more than better and what about the Brigadier, she is GETTING A PASS...

.....my big question..where was the NCOIC?

I see this as a real chain of command problem going on here, too...thats whats really disturbing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. the Taquba report is disturbing for this

and other reasons.... it is mandatory reaading for any person of good conscience

[PsN2Wind]

38. Damn Disturbed

that was sure a persuasive statement you made to the asshole.

[mike1963]

44. The problem with that situation is that the people who determine

what are 'lawful orders' are often the same people who issued them in the first place. Mea Culpa isn't something the military (or even the alleged civilian 'chain of command') is fond of admitting...

[Leezamarie]

70. Some did refuse the illegal orders , so obviously it was possible.

[Piperay]

30. What England did and the other soldiers and

the ones who gave the orders is not going to save one American life, it is going to cost Americans lives, over there and right here at home...DAMN them ALL!!

[Wind Dancer]

32. Outraged and saddened!

"Lynndie's family admits to some bitterness. To them, the apparent humiliations inflicted on the Iraqi prisoners pale when compared to the burning and mutilation of four U.S. contractors last month."

I am going bonkers listening to this constantly as a reason for the torture of these prisoners. First, we are told that insurgents are hiding behind honest, peace loving Iraqis, and it's hard to tell the good guys from the bad. Yet we round up the exact people, not knowing if they are innocent, degrade and humiliate them, all in the name of fighting terrorism. Does this make sense?

I have yet to hear anybody publicly state this. I have yet to hear anybody talk about the 11,000 dead innocent Iraqis nor the numbered severely injured. Did we cover the Iraqis in the media who were also outraged with the murder of those contractors by the insurgents? Of course not. These people have had their human rights and dignity taken away by Saddam, the insurgents and now this country. And we wonder why they hate us? And we wonder why Americans can't win their "hearts and minds"?

I am disgusted with some of the ignorance in our country and how the war criminals in the admin. has spoon fed so many people who believe everything that comes out in the media.

This WH has gone mad, half our country compares this to fraternity hazing, and I am just sick. God help us!

[Ms. Clio]

39. I'm bitter, too

I'm bitter that Kenneth and Terrie England are freeper scum like their disgusting daughter.

[MidwestMomma]

41. From a Bush devotee co-worker "It's not like we beheaded them...."

She then repeated almost for word the part about the mutilated contractors and how what 'we' did wasn't so bad. (Do these people have a collective mind? I'm starting to think I'm living in a bad sci-fi movie where most of the world has been taken over by a parasitic alien with a collective mind and I'm not part of THEM yet.)

Anyway, I looked at her and said "It was bad and we should be better then this" and left the room.

I think she's having a breakdown because she is completelty DEVOTED to Bush and she was watching his tv conference this PM and from the 2 seconds I watched he appeared to be..HORRORS OF HORRORS to his worshippers...apologizing. I think the emotional shock of seeing her great leader stumbling over words and coming as close to admitting a mistake as we'll probably EVER see, was too much for her.

I swear, I keep asking myself, is this how the people of Germany felt? We are teetering at the top of a slippery slope. The ONLY way to stop the momemtum is to elect Kerry in the fall. It's the only way to send a message to the world that we DO NOT support this regime.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. I fear we need to take to the streeets, en mase

[Disturbed]

45. I am not a pacifist.

If I would have gotten orders for Nahm I would have gone.
In fact, I did have orders to go but they got changed two weeks
before I was to go to Nahm and changed for Germany because I was a Cryptologist. Why? Dunno. The Army doesn't explain anything.

I just put that real life story in to make the point that we
do have choices even in the face of pressure from others to do the
wrong things.

[Snazzy]

46. BBC story: Woman soldier in abuse spotlight

(From a post in GD)



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3691753.stm

BBC telling sub heads:

Trailer Park

'Big Joke'

(her mother sez: "The government turned their back on her, and everything's a big joke," she added.)

[RebelOne]

52. That Trailer Park subhead irks me.

The press is constantly stressing that she lived in a trailer. Well, I live in a trailer--no, make that mobile home--and most people who live in mobile homes are not low-lifes.
It seems that people are always degrading those who live in mobile homes.

[Snazzy]

53. right!

And I've added to the stereotype in the way I pointed out the BBC thing. Which I should have thought about.

Hard to not get caught up in stereotypes when they are so prevalent, especially as a media shorthand, or take comics or other yahoos with "trailer park trash" which is just a hair from being racist and classist, if it isn't outright.

I lived in Florida for a while--tons of trailer parks, which was new to me. Some were beautiful, might add, which surprised me. Great locations, fixed up, etc. Some were areas of desperation, poverty, ignorance, crime and sadness, like the stereotype is maybe meant to suggest.

I'll make an effort to watch that--should know better (so should BBC, et al.). But mobile homes! Now that's a different story (joking).

[RebelOne]

71. Well, the park I live in is called Noonday Valley Mobile Home Park

I think that people stereotype trailer residents as downtrodden, poor and ignorant as you stated, but I am defintely not in that class. I have a good job, not poor, but could be richer, definitely not ignorant. There is very little crime in my mobile home park. There are quite a few Hispanics and they don't want any problems with the law.

I wrote to one of the British online newspapers (I forgot which one), because their headline was "Trailer Park Trash Shames U.S." I blasted them and said that the majority of the people in the U.S. who live in trailers are not trailer trash and that I resented that term. I am awaiting their reply.

[catzies]

80. You bet they turned their back on your girl, Miz England.

Governments always do sooner or later, and this one is one of the worst of them all.

But at least your kid came home.

[SemperEadem]

108. Dag!

"According to the Baltimore Sun newspaper, she grew up in a trailer parked down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, West Virginia. Her father was a railroad worker. "

That about paints the picture into effective context. Yikes!

[Beaker]

47. i feel sorry for lynndie-

she truly was in the wrong places at the wrong times-

it seems like she's mostly 'guilty' of posing with the prisoners for the camera- as i understand it, she's pregnant by her boyfriend who is one of the abusing bastards.

as far as her condoning it or 'going along'- true, she should have known better, but it also seems to me that it was all SOP at the prison(s) and they knew, condoned , and encouraged what was going on. in the eyes of the military, the only thing that was done wrong was that some lunkheads took pictures.

i'm afraid that these people in the pics, especially lynndie are going to be the scapegoats.

[saigon68]

50. SS Women helping bury bodies

Above. SS Women helping bury bodies at Bergen Belsen, April, 1945.

[Beaker]

59. your point?

because if it's to make a comparison, it's a ludicrous one.

you might want to think about it a little more...

[primavera]

79. Would you prefer My Lai?

There are any number of analogies throughout history of military carrying out human rights violations and then seeking to attribute their crimes to the unique climate of war. Hasn't held much water so far.

[Beaker]

82. i don't know, what's your Lai like?

comparing what has transpired in iraq, things like a naked human pyramid or a troublemaker with panties on his head, to Mai Lai or The Holocaust is what doesn't hold water.
Lynndie England is no Dr. Joseph Mengele, or even a Lt. Calley, so don't try to make her into one...she's just a regular poor west virginia kid who wanted a job and a ticket out of appalachia.

[primavera]

83. How so?

According to PBS, My Lai involved the rape, torture, and muder of civilians by US soldiers in Vietnam (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.htm... ). According to the ICRC report, Iraqi civilians in detention camps were sexually assaulted and tortured by US soldiers, with the result in many cases being death. Hmmm. Doesn't sound like that great a stretching of analogies to me.

[Beaker]

89. don't forget about the sky being blue in both cases either...

[frankieT]

97. it looks like

thes women are Kapos or Sonderkommandos, not SS. but maybe im wrong.

[leftchick]

51. she did way more than pose...

she and her boyfriend HAD SEX in front of the prisoners. Sweet girl, huh?

[Beaker]

58. i hadn't heard that one...

gotta link?

[The Stranger]

55. Uh, not to bother you with the facts, but the U.S. Army has concluded

already that at least two P.O.W.'s have been murdered in Iraq.

[Beaker]

57. ummm...not by lynndie.

she's the point of this thread, and my post.

do you know the background story on these particular prisoners in most of the photos with her? the six of them had beaten up another inmate- i'm not condoning what has happened, but it's also not representative of how each and every detainee is being treated. because of their actions, these guys were segregated from the other detainees, and "softened up"...i.e. Abused.

[The Stranger]

61. Please.

"not representative of how each and every detainee is being treated"?

Are you serious? Are you buying into the neocon lies about a few bad apples? This is an attitude, a culture that is passed around like a disease, the sense that the Iraqis are subhuman and can be treated that way. Someone, anyone, quote the German term for it.

[Beaker]

63. "Please", yourself...

Here's what one of the "abused" prisoners had to say:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&u=/ap/200...

...He said he spent the next three months at the Camp Bucca detention camp in southern Iraq, then was brought to Iraq's biggest prison, Abu Ghraib, on the western outskirts of Baghdad.

"Everyone treated me well," he said.

But when he and other prisoners beat up a fellow detainee who had been chosen by the Americans to run their part of the prison, Abed and six other men were taken from the tent camp where they had been held into Abu Ghraib's solitary detention area.

That's when their nightmare began, he said.

"First they beat us. They hit us all over," Abed said. "Then they tore off our clothes."...

but then, your pre-conceived opinions are probably more accurate than that of one of the victims.

[The Stranger]

73. You have got to be fucking kidding me.

The very quote you provide shows a war crime. "First they beat us. They hit us all over . . . "

They beat the shit out of him, but because they first "treated him well" it is supposed to be excused? Am I missing some sarcasm here? Because I can't believe what I am reading.

[Beaker]

74. apparently your comprehension leaves a bit to be desired...

"But when he and other prisoners beat up a fellow detainee who had been chosen by the Americans to run their part of the prison, Abed and six other men were taken from the tent camp where they had been held into Abu Ghraib's solitary detention area..."

these guys were treated well until they beat up another inmate, then their "trouble" started...I'm not saying it was right, or that it didn't go to far, but there was a specific reason behind it- and it's not the way that all the detainees are treated day after day after day, as some seem so eager to believe.

[frankieT]

98. concentration camp techniques

choose some inmates and make them Kapos.

[daleo]

85. Everyone treated me well...until they started torturing me

If it wasn't such a serious subject, it would be a great one-liner for a stand-up comic. Along the lines of those "Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?".

"So how was your stay? Pretty good, until the torture."

I mean, come on, he wasn't tortured, he was abused, and not only that, he was 'abused'?

[Beaker]

88. He was one of 6 guys who beat up another inmate...

THAT'S why they stopped "being nice"...

(is it a reading problem, or a comprehension problem???)

[The Stranger]

103. What concerns me is that it isn't a comprehension problem.

At least not a reading comprehension problem. There seems to be something profoundly missing from the justifications presented for beating (and in other cases murdering) prisoners of war.

It may be a problem of conscience or fundamental judgment, perhaps even character -- that is, these things seem to be missing from the justifications presented for beating people held in military captivity after being conquered and occupied.

Let me put it this way: It doesn't matter if he beat another prisoner. Let me type that part again: It doesn't matter if he beat another prisoner. It is against international law to beat someone whom you have taken into custody.

That's it. Over. Done. Right there. No need to go any further. If you do torture or beat or abuse that person, you are violating international law, and (if tried and convicted of such), you are a criminal.

And if you don't seem to comprehend this, then I am profoundly distressed that I find your posts on this BBS.

[Beaker]

119. do you know for a fact what training the troops were given...?

in regard to international law and the particulars of the geneva convention?

and how do you feel that violent prisoners should be disciplined...?
that is- how exactly would you do it, given the level of training and instructions many of the troops did or rather did NOT recieve?

just wondering...

[primavera]

84. "Niedermenschen" n/t

[Scairp]

60. Not me

There is an article on AOL as well, and although her mother insists this behavior is completely out of character the way she describes her daughter to me only confirms that she is the kind of person who would participate in such cruelty. And yes, the AOL article also said that she is pregnant and had been sent to Ft. Bragg but not charged thus far in connection with these incidents. I do hope she gets no special treatment because she is a pregnant female. She should be charged just like the men.

Edited to add this link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/07/national/07SOLD.html

[Beaker]

76. who are you to judge?

you've seen some pictures with her in some poses-

how does that equate to her being the torturer?

since i'm not in the situation that many of those people are in, and haven't gone thru what they have been forced to endure, I won't pass jugdement until all the actual facts come out.

[daleo]

86. Nobody here is a judge

Since this isn't a courtroom. However, we are capable of using our normal powers of observation and evaluation. Since Ms. England was in several photos, smiling for the camera, while prisoners were being tortured, it is logical to conclude that she was aiding and abetting the process, and certainly not trying to distance herself. If you aid and abet someone in the commission of a crime (which these activities certainly were) you are legally equivalent to the person committing the crime (whoops, and here I said I wasn't a judge). Her only defense will be to say that she herself was being forced to pose, but her smiling countenance in the photos will make that a tough sell in court.

[Beaker]

90. it seems as tho everyone here is playing judge jury and executioner.

what pictures has lynndie been in where inmates are being "tortured"?

i've seen the one with the leash, and the human pyramid, and lynndie pointing at their crotches...
but i haven't seen any pictures with her in them that include any acts of torture...

do you have a link?

[Leezamarie]

72. You "feel sorry" for Lynndie. Have the world's most compassionate Beaker

award. You are a fne human being, who is so understanding that you can feel even for torturers and murders. Yes they "should have known better" but nobody's perfect. By the way "scapegoats" are innocent. The word you are looking for is fallguy.

[Beaker]

75. what evidence do you have that Lynndie is guilty of being-

a "torturer and a murderer"????

You are way off base with those kinds of accusations against her, without some kind of specific information.

[SemperEadem]

110. she is guilty of collusion and complicity

just by the fact that she's demonstrating joyful participation, happiness and a "I'm part of the group" perception in the photos.

She doesn't appear to be stoic, upset, indifferent, put-upon, mad, angry, hurt, crying, scowling---anything that would lead a reasonably minded person to conclude that she was not a willing participant in the actions captured by the photo.

Her hand isn't up shielding her face, she's not wearing any means by which to disguise her features, which would indicate a reluctance to be identified as someone who was "part of the group" participating in the events.

Has she committed any crimes? Only forensic evidence will determine that.

[Deja Q]

101. She was smiling, clearly enjoying what she was doing. Just like

how other American troops, both male and female, took their time to pose with big happy grins on their faces. What were they thinking, making postcards to send to family and friends for a holiday or two?!

This is America's maturity? America's professionalism? America's superiority? America's quest to do the right things and to be a country people should look up to with reverence?!

What these "people" have done is to make a bad situation worse onethousandfold. These "people" are traitors, pure and simple. They have damaged America's credibility in ways Bush* couldn't even begin to dream of, and Bush* has done a LOT of damage already.

These "people" smiling, Lynndie included, DESERVE to be scapegoats because they were STUPID enough to pose in immature stances, often with big smiles on faces, clearly showing their delight in being malicious and cruel. Of course they're going to get more of the blame, even when others were involved. (Maybe the ringleaders chose not to have their pics taken? Or maybe Lyndie et al are the ring leaders? Their boasting by including themselves next to their trophies speaks volumes.)

You want to feel sorry for them? Your sorrow is misplaced. It's better deserved for those of us who did not want this "war". We are the injured party. We were all ignored by a group of selfish thugs who wanted conquest and glory and sleazy vengeance, who had no consideration for future repercussions, much less thought. Or even for those blindly supporting the "war" who don't know any better. The actions of these "people", and Bushko*, are only creating MORE terrorists. (and that leads to some very frightning hyperbole, especially after you take int oaccount what bushko* has said over the last 3.45 years...)

I am aware there are more "people" involved. They're just as bad. But those proud enough to photograph themselves DOING IT will get the most blame. That's going to happen and they shouldn't get a drop of pity from anybody.

[The_Casual_Observer]

49. This whole Lynndie thing is very weird

weren't this pictures mixed in with what looked like vacation pictures?

The identifiable military people, all the same people, seem to be in just about all the photos, it's her and the guy with the mustache and gloves. It would be a good idea find out how deep this all goes and how many people are involved.

[dansolo]

62. Is it worse because she is a woman?

My question is posed from the perspective of how the Muslim world would view it. Isn't the degredation and humiliation compounded by the fact that the abuse is at the hands of a woman, at least in the majority of pictures that are being shown.

[CJCRANE]

87. Don't think it makes a difference...

I can't imagine the prisoners thinking "if only it was a man abusing me, that would be better".

[SemperEadem]

111. yes

anyone with any kind of knowledge of the Muslim mind knows this. Those with only a Western Capitalistic Christian point of view don't. They'll marginalize the offense based solely upon how they were taught to view the world.

[nagbacalan]

77. So when does the family appear on Jerry Springer?

[maddezmom]

78. Female Soldier Charged With Abuse

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/07/iraq/main6162...

[BiggJawn]

91. Laws be damned, "American Law International Law!"

"Kenneth and Terrie England say the activities shown on the notorious picture would be justified if they resulted in intelligence that saved American lives."

So if the Iraqis had captured Lyndie and turned her out to 1/2 the Republican Guard to get info that would "save iraqi Lives" they would have been cool with that? After all, what gives us the "right" to break international law?

Oh...Yeah, I forgot. We're Murka, Our Pretzeldent is the "Left Hand of Gawd", and ummm, we have Nukes?

[paulie5]

93. prisoner abuse

One picture is worth a thousand words. There is right and wrong. In this case these criminal acts were recorded on film. They're guilty as sin. And so are the higher ups that let this go on under their very noses. OH, they knew what the heck was going on. Now it's the perpetrators trying to save their unsavory skins. As much as the US personnel in the photos their commanding officers are ultimately to blame. To show the world America even gives a rat's ass they should get rid of Rumsfeld right away then start a though investigation with people being held accountable and not waiting for the affair to be buried in the other news events of any given day.
I hear there were several homicides that need to be brought to the light of day.

Hey !!! They were caught with their collective pants down in the human rights department. The very thing we were suppose to bring to these unfortunate people in the cross hairs of GW Bush and his itchy trigger finger.


P3

[BiggJawn]

99. I see a trend starting in this...

The Army is going into "See? We're FIXING it! We're Court Martialing Privates and Sargents!" while the higher-ups are perhaps being allowed to quietly retire.

Rumsferatu "takes full responsibility".Big Fucking Deal. Unless he resigns, he might as well have said "Oh, my goodness! Do I feel bad enough about this to wanna commit Hare Kare? You bet I do! Am I? Why should I? I didn't commit the abuse personally...."

He's not gonna step down, not unless they (Rove's "team")get together Monday morning and decide "Hey, hey, ho, ho poor ol' Rummy's gotta go!" because of the weekend's poll numbers.

[SemperEadem]

112. So, Lynndie now speaks in Iraqi dialects?

"Kenneth and Terrie England say the activities shown on the notorious picture would be justified if they resulted in intelligence that saved American lives.

Exactly what information was she, personally, getting out of these prisoners? I dont see any paper or pens or recording equipment on tables in the pics.. I see mugging for the camera with detainees in humiliating poses.

[leftofthedial]

94. didn't thumbs-up Lynndie do her thang

months before the contractors were torched?


on edit: and it doesn't matter whether or not torture saved American lives. It's a war crime.

[Deja Q]

100. Hmmm, wouldn't US troops be PROFESSIONAL if it was about getting info?

If it is about extracting information, wouldn't the troops be a bit PROFESSIONAL about it all? What had been going on is far FROM professional. It's hurting the US as a country in terms of credibility, maturity, and a whole host of other terms...

And the fact some people use the "extracting information" card and others believing it so blindly is deplorable. Those pictures clearly show the events were not professionally done in the slightest. Those "people" were being cruel for the sake of malicious cruelty. I'm sure they'd kick kittens during their off hours too.

If her parents are still proud, then they're just as guilty as little Lynndie... Their spin is incredibly unjustified. Their "justification" by saying "Well, a couple of US contractors were harmed, so what we're doing to all of them is okay" is complete bull shit. We started this mess. We invaded their country based on lies and deceptions, for vengeance and purportedly some oil in order to pay for the war with. There were no WMDs. "Liberation" was a lie created by the people that * promptly took over when he couldn't think of a better lie to cover up the previous one he used. We haven't seen a drop of oil and prices keep going up. Where's the oil, Georgie, huh? And * still asks for more money. (Gee, I thought only liberals had the policy of "solving problems by throwing money at it". The last 24 years have shown republicans throwing lots of money around, with Clinton ironically balancing the budget his repuke forebearers made a big mess of. The truth is, repukes are the party of "fiscal IRRESPONSIBILITY".)

There's a big swindle going on in terms of the oil and money alone. Time, months ago, reported on the $20 billion (of the $87 bil * asked for) that was slated directly for Iraq. There was a ton of fuzzy math involved. Pity that issue had been forgotten too.

Hmmm, small town folk. For that I say this: The smaller the town, the dumber its inhabitants and the more readily they're able to be duped.

Sheesh, how many contractors were abused and hurt in Iraq? Then how many Iraqis have been? FOUR compared to DOZENS?! (or 734 US deaths compared to the Deaths of 10,000+ because of lies and deception and abeting corporate greed?!

No US citizen should feel bitterness for what's happened to our citizens. We caused this mess. We are the bully. We need to pay the price and lump it.

We, as US citizens should feel sorry for the soldiers who have morals and ethics. We need to support the honorable ones while also hoping we can get some sanity restored in that country.

But I will not support traitors like Lynndie and those who support her. They are dregs, whose personal quest for cheap thrills and glory are massively hurting the United States as a whole country. There's no way I will give her any respect. Not for what she has done against the US and against those prisoners. (not to forget the others involved in what's been leaked... and what hasn't been leaked yet.)

[saigon68]

104. SUPPORT THE TROOPS

SPEAKING OF THE MERCENARIES



work of Iraqi people against mercenary invaders


SPEAKING OF LYNCHING IN AMERICA (stringing up charred corpses in AMERIKA)





Spectators at the lynching of Jesse Washington, one man raised for a better view. (only 8,500 celebrants in attendance)

May 16, 1916, Waco, Texas.




Charred corpse of Jesse Washington suspended from utility pole.

May 16, 1916, Robinson, Texas.


work of white mob in disciplining an uppity negro

[abracadabra]

105. why is the mob not all white??

Just noticed-got any more info on that event in Waco 1916?

I do see your point that the human race has neither evolved nor progressed one bit since these types of things were commonly accepted..
Funny even after WWII &VietNam--
Even after al that's happened in the 20th Century.
The group consciousness apparently remains stagnant.
Some people try to point this out in the hopes that the die hard reptilians will move into the future-- but good luck with that...


We bring horror to the Iraqis
--They give it right back to us--
In their culture "an eye for an eye " is justice.

So any bets on how long before American troops are captured and video tape is release of U.S troops naked on the "recieving end" ??
I'll bet within the month--

[saigon68]

113. I don't know I wasn't there? were YOU?

I don't think at this stage the Iraqi Resistance forces or Muqtada al-Sadr's Patriotic Army will try to out do us in the torture Department.

They can now capture the moral high ground and world opinion as being more moderate than MEYERS military THUGS and HOODLUMS.

Remember it was Saddam who was the bad guy. Myers is chasing noises that go bump in the night








Iraqi Shi'ite's celebrate as they afix a poster image of the al-Sadr family members left-right,
Mohamed Baqir Al-Sadr, Mohammed al-sadr, Muqtada al-Sadr, in Baghdad's suburb of Al
Dorah, Iraq (news - web sites), Friday, April 23, 2004. The billboard poster was removed by US
Army soldiers last week. (AP Photo/Karim Kadim)

[DBoon]

106. She will be made into a hero to the RW!

Just like Ollie North.

I will bet money on it

[Failure]

109. Bitterness? They're confused...

"Lynndie's family admits to some bitterness. To them, the apparent humiliations inflicted on the Iraqi prisoners pale when compared to the burning and mutilation of four U.S. contractors last month."

for the last fucking time. Those were MERCENARIES. They get paid to kill. They get paid well, in fact, but in this case, the hunters became the hunted. And furthermore, the clerics issued a fatwa condemning the desecration of the mercenarie's bodies, almost IMMEDIATELY after it happened. How long has it taken * to apologize...to the Iraqi's, not the king of Jordan.

FCOL!

failure.

[Snazzy]

114. The happy couple

CAPTION: US Army Spec. Charles A. Graner, Jr (rear), and Pfc. Lynndie R. England are seen at Abu Ghraib prison. US magazines published graphic new reports of Iraqi prison abuses, including a photo showing a naked prisoner cowering under threat from two US military dogs and witness accounts of beatings and rape.(AFP/Washington Post/HO)

-----

Occurs to me he's 16 years older than her.

[Snazzy]

115. G.I. in torture case hires legal top gun (NY Daily News)

(instead of yet another thread, I'll stick this here)

G.I. in torture case hires legal top gun

By MAKI BECKER
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

CUMBERLAND, Md. - Lynndie England, the pixie-faced poster child of America's prison abuse scandal in Iraq, has hired an attorney.
England, who was pictured in several gleeful poses mocking naked Iraqis, has retained Giorgio Ra'Shadd, a lawyer specializing in military law, according to a source close to the family.

Last year, Ra'Shadd represented a Colorado woman in the Army National Guard who had refused to return to Iraq so she could take care of her seven children.

England, a member of the 372nd Military Police Company, was formally charged Friday with abusing Iraqi detainees.

....

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/191653p-165674c.h...

[Zerex71]

121. That's white trash for you.