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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:22 AM
Original message
New photos show more Iraqi prisoner abuse
Edited on Thu May-06-04 07:26 AM by ixion
CTV.ca News Staff

A new group of pictures of Iraqi prisoners has surfaced, showing more apparent humiliation of the prisoners at the hands of U.S. soldiers at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.

The digital photographs were published today by The Washington Post. They show prisoners handcuffed or shackled, most of them naked. Among the images is a picture of a female soldier holding a leash, tied around a man's neck.

In another photo, a group of naked men is bound together on the floor of the prison. Another shows a hooded, naked man handcuffed to a cell door; another man is naked and shackled to the top bunk in a cell, with a pair of women's panties over his head.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/108...

"I don't know if it is correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that there's been a conviction for torture. And therefore I'm not going to address the torture word."

-- Donald 'Vlad' Rummy


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pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am confused
There is no doubt that this is despicable, embarrassing and wrong. I understand the outrage as I am disgusted. what I don't understand is where is your outrage about our guys being mutilated and dragged threw the streets.

why is this so much more appalling than the gruesome murders of our troops and contract workers?

If my son was captured I would rather see him stripped and humiliated than physically tortured and maimed, but I guess that is just me
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. another voice
from the educated ones.

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. There was outrage,...
,...don't you remember? Approximately 700 Iraqi men, women and children paid with their lives for the atrocity committed on those four American contractors. Of course, alot of people tend to have short memories. Even I keep lists. :D
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pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. right
we went nuts on them after that.
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. That is what is known as a straw man argument.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:32 AM by MiddleMen
You throw something out there that you offer no support for. That there wasn't outrage here over the contractors deaths. There was plenty of outrage. Both at the people who did it and at our President for starting the war in first place. So your argument is a straw man. You hypothesize something that never happened and then base your argument on it.

Now why on earth should we still be focused on that event? Why should that event in any way effect response to torture by American troops? In fact, isn't the reason for the dead contractors and the resistance in the first place due to the poor behavior of our forces in "running" Iraq? Because everything I've read indicates that most Iraqis were willing to give us a chance. They hated Hussein and I remember one article where someone in Fallujah said they didn't resist at first simply because, as a long time US/Europe supporter, he wanted to do the opposite of what Hussein told him to do. Now, he is a resistance fighter.

Now, it take a lot of incompetence and/or evil intentions to destroy such broad support and attitudes and create the situation we have today.



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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. Nice post. More on logical fallacies here.
One of the treasures of the Net:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
62. But I must pass along something another poster here has pointed out.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:30 PM by calimary
This prisoner abuse has apparently been going on for quite some time. The Tagura report on this, that people are seeing all over everywhere (and apparently know more about, more quickly, than our own lovely Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard Myers) was, according to Seymour Hersh, THE THIRD INVESTIGATION. Amnesty International, I think it was, was trying to get into the prison to inspect and check out the rumors about this - last summer. July, I think I remember from somewhere.

When those four contractors were killed so horribly, was that an isolated case, too, or was it in reaction to what lots of people may already have been well aware of? Yes, that was an atrocity, too. But was it a stand-alone atrocity, or was it revenge?

on edit -

By the way, Pebbles, Welcome to DU! Believe me, NOBODY here would EVER wish ill on your son or any of our troops that have been fed into this meat-grinder. NEVER NEVER NEVER. I am terribly sorry about your son, and the loved ones of other DUers here who've been sent over there. I'm sorry for THEIR loved ones, too, who'll be picking up the pieces with them if they're among the "lucky" ones to return home by other means than "transfer tubes." Believe me, we are PRAYING desperately for this whole damn thing to end, from top to bottom. The war, THIS REGIME, especially, that aggitated for war and lied for war and manipulated and deceived for war and screwed us all for war. Some of us fought this on our own "front lines" - in the protests and marches and repeated petitions and emails and faxes and calls to our reps and so forth. That was the point. We didn't want this to begin with. Because some of us were around for Vietnam, and fought against that, too. Some of us who weren't or weren't aware or weren't old enough, still fought this. Because we didn't want YOU and others like you to have to go through this, and CERTAINLY didn't want to see you and others like you watching or listening to EVERY newscast, dreading what might be reported or knowing what your dear ones were forced to see, do, and endure over there.

It's not meant as a criticism. Keep in mind, too, dear friend, that many of us are just angry beyond belief about this. Angry at ourselves, also, perhaps, that no regardless how hard we fought, we weren't able to stop this. Or maybe angry at ourselves that some of us were also, even though briefly, taken in (like my husband, who really was convinced for awhile, by watching Colin Powell's presentation at the UN last year - now he knows better). Angry at our fellow citizens, too many of whom are still in denial, and STILL behaving like some anchor I just saw, within the last hour, on MSNBC I think, who was still trying to grasp at the straws of "but weren't these photos STAGED?"

I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're questioning. There's LOTS of info and links and alternative information sources - MANY highly credible ones as well as the off-the-wall, tinfoil-hat stuff - usually from overseas where the media hasn't been squelched, leaned on, or threatened and intimidated into submission. I hope you'll gain new wisdom and perspective here, and more importantly - SUPPORT. Moral support, and validation. Nobody should have to go through this. This was completely unnecessary. And we're STILL trying to stop it. I pray we'll all succeed in that, come November.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
67. We invaded their country illegally on a pretext to steal their
oil.

They are fighting to rid their country of invading hooligans. We have maimed and burned thousands of their countrymen from the air or from tank shells.

Why do they need a justification from you or from me to kill invading soldiers and mercenaries?
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
41. How ironic that sexually explicit material will bring the lunatic fringe
in the administration to their knees. Remember the $8,000 breast cover-up.

The Universe is good!
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Gin, I love your post!
I might just print it and hang frame it.

And how true. It's rather symbolic of what's gone wrong with the Rat-publican party, isn't it?
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
63. I think maggrwaggr posted on this very thing -
we thought that only a sex scandal would bring down the bushies. And because there was no Monica, well, that was the one thing he seemed innoculated against.

Not now!

Sex! Shit!

Unbelievable.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. we throw parties to ceLebrate our deaths
:eyes:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. You wouldn't mind if your son was sodomized or your daughter raped either?
Excerpts of US military report on Iraq jail abuse


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04517066.htm

<snip>Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. snip

Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees; snip

A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee; snip

Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

more



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pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. I just want my son home
with all the pieces he was born with and breathing. That is all I pray for
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I hope he makes it home safe
My husband came back from Iraq in March. I know how tough it is. :hug:
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pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. I hope your husband can stay home
God what he must have seen
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Welcome to DU, pepples1. I am sorry to hear about your son
No matter what side of the political spectrum you are on...I am hoping that your son will be alright.

Those soldiers (and mercenaries) who did the torture just made the situation so much worse. Most Iraqis hate them already and this just adds fuel to the fire.

Any abuse and torture of ANY human being (no matter the nationality, race, religion, etc.) is utterly despicable and disgusting.


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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. well then why don't you help stop this immoral occupation

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
42. This treatment of helpless Iraqi prisoners puts your son at MORE risk
Edited on Thu May-06-04 09:01 AM by Stephanie
Whoever made the decision to hire INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS as interrogators, and allowed THEM to direct the American military stationed at the prison, has put your son at far GREATER RISK than he was before. Why do you think they are using HIRED MERCENARIES as interrogators in the prisons? Do you think it is because they are outside the military chain of command and can do things that are against military rules without being court martialed? Someone in the BUSH administration, in the DEFENSE DEPT, made the decision to privatize many operations in Iraq that should have been handled by our military. Now look at what's happened. And it is our TROOPS who will become targets because of it. Look to the CAUSE of the problem.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
65. We do, too!
We do, TOO! Can't tell you how much. We want them ALL home. NOW. We are praying right alongside you - for the same thing. Because you're going to have to live with the aftermath, every bit as much as he is. And as a mother myself, I know, myself, that anything bad that happens to MY son hurts me - probably MORE than it did him. And I'm not even talking about war - he's not near old enough.
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
77. I'm sure everyone at DU...
wants to see your son come home safely. The right-wingers accuse us of not caring about our troops...that is a lie! We were the ones who fought against them being sent to Iraq in the first place. When this abuse scandal erupted, my first reaction was horror at the increased danger our troops will be in as a result.

I wish you and your son the best... :hug:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. The photos were taken long before the merceneries were killed.
In fact, contracters/merceneries appear to have had a role in some of the abuses. More has happened than we've seen & these things have been known for some time. In Washington & in Iraq.

Could the killings & mutilations at Fallujah have been revenge for the ongoing rape & torture by people representing the US, civilan & military?


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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. I asked those same questions yesterday to a Boo$h
supporter who "refuses to look at those pictures" because it "can't be as bad as what they did to our guys".

I tried to point out that our government/media is not as forthcoming on what exactly is happening in Iraq but this person would have none of it.

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. You must not have been here...
When those contractors were captured, burned and displayed on that bridge. There was outrage here.
If you stick around here long enough you'll see the outrage whenever any horrendous acts are committed against human beings.
The reason why this is so despicable is because the American public has been told over and over by the crap running this country that everything is just peachy and we are doing such a great job liberating those poor people.
As for how the Iraqis are treating their prisoners, just read a bit from Thomas Hamill. He was captured, his wounds were treated, he was given water and food and was not in bad shape when he escaped. After this fiasco, I doubt many American prisoners will have any good chance of coming out alive.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. I'm confused, too, about you.
How can you favor a preemptive US invasion of Iraq based on Saddam's treatment of the Iraqi people, especially in Abu Ghraib Prison, when the U.S. is mimicking Saddam's behavior? How can you support sending our troops into a country where our government's promotion of torture inspires attacks against our troops?

Here's a little something from one of our military police in Baghdad. He's repulsed by the behavior. Why aren't you?

Leadership gone bad

I have to say this stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq is an example of leadership gone really bad. I cant believe for one second that those troops didnt know what they were doing was wrong. Nor can I believe the command was not aware that it was occurring. It sure doesnt help our cause here in Iraq or the perspective of our being humane and following the codes of conduct. It really angers me.

Of course this type of behavior has happened in past wars when prisoners were interrogated. But I believed we were above this level of abuse and maltreatment by now. Apparently this is not the case.

I remember when I was attached to a military police company while in the reserves years ago. We were given instructions as to the laws of prisoner treatment and the Geneva Conventions, as we continually do today. The 5 Ss secure, silence, segregate, safeguard, speed are taught to all MPs, and the Geneva Conventions laws of prisoner treatment are taught to all soldiers, military interrogators and civilians alike.

It really turns my stomach to think that Im in the same Army as these people, let alone the same military occupational specialty, and at a level of leadership that allowed it to continue. To use ignorance as an excuse is totally lame. Its shameful, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Sgt. Kevin McCue
Military policeman
Baghdad

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article...
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Was Jessica Lynch tortured? No. Was the recent escapee tortured? No.
None of the prisoners of war that the Iraqis have taken have been tortured. At least two of the prisoners of war the U.S. has taken have been murdered.

The mercenaries who were killed and dragged through the streets were victims of a mob of people who have been invaded, occupied, and murdered now for decades, much of that time either by the U.S. government or by despots with U.S. government support.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Great post, TheStranger
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funkybutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. i thought i remember hearing that Jessic Lynch was raped
anyone else?
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Yeah, let's go through this ONE MORE TIME.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:23 PM by Ripley
No she was not raped. Rush and the other Hate Radio mouths LIED about that. Read her book. Find me one piece of evidence from Jessica or her doctors that proves she was raped.

To the contrary...she, like the truck driver who was released or escaped, whatever...were given MEDICAL CARE...not abuse.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
76. Interesting how the right wing media lies are what is remembered.
Devilish, hideous, hatemongering, insidious right wing lies.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. sorry ,our guys
i think you are talking about the "contractors"- they have no legal status in Iraq. they are paid mercenaries who under the rules of war are offered no protection. if there were a functioning independent Iraq court system they would be tried in that fashion but since there is none the people spoke. blame bush and his thugs for destroying law and order.
we all want everyone home...we never wanted this war..we support the good ,honest guys and gals who are just doing what they have to to stay alive..those pigs in those prisons are no better than the Nazi`s or the Japanese during ww2 and should be in front of the world court not the hand slaps they will get in the USA. everyone who is responsible should be branded war criminals and tried
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. I agree. One World One Law is the only real way to combat
terrorism.

The hatred toward and attacks on America wont stop until we finally agree to hold ourselves accountable to the same laws everyone else is accountable to.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. those four "contractors" were mercenaries and they got caught

these mercenaries were killing people for money
they were not our troops



by the way, this is all about destroying America's image and you
obviously don't care about this country or you would be outraged
at the damage this does to American credibility


Your are in total denial pebbles1.

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pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. America's credibilty and image
was damaged long before the rapes. I am not sure we have any credibility in any country. Well there is England and Israel so I guess we do
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #31
45. AMERIKA HAS HAD NO CREDIBILITY SINCE 1930 ???
WONDER NO MORE.


PUT THESE FUCKING ASSHOLES IN A MOB AND THIS IS THE RESULT.



Lynching 1930

A mob of 10,000 whites took sledgehammers to the county jailhouse doors to get at these two
young blacks accused of raping a white girl; the girls uncle saved the life of a third by
proclaiming the mans innocence. Although this was Marion, Ind., most of the nearly 5,000
lynchings documented between Reconstruction and the late 1960s were perpetrated in the South.
(Hangings, beatings and mutilations were called the sentence of Judge Lynch.) Some lynching
photos were made into postcards designed to boost white supremacy, but the tortured bodies and
grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting as many as they scared. Today the images remind
us that we have not come as far from barbarity as wed like to think.


?On Edit: This is a photo taken 15 years before I was born, this type of sport existed until the late
1960's well into the Viet-Nam war, when men of color and others were busted out of jails and
STRUNG UP to entertain cheering mobs and provide white girls with justice.

The Caption is from Life Magazine and a book of 100 pictures that changed AMERIKA

WHAT HAS CHANGED??? IN MY HUMBLE OPINION NOT MUCH

Look at the adoring faces in the picture.

This could be the Prom Night Entertainment for all we know.

Look at smiles on the faces of the young women.

Everyone is having a good Time ( A Mob of 10,000 people)

The EXTREME RIGHT WING is playing off peoples fears and ENCOURAGING RACISM
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Yep. Ozzie and Harriet and the boys are in that crowd somewhere n/t
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. Excellent post. This is our society's dark soul...
...revealed.

The sinister parallels between that 1930's mob lynching and the mob prison abuse this year in Iraq are creepy and deep.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. Wouldn't like to speak for my compatriots but ..
... I wouldn't bet that your views are appreciated in England either.

Still, you'll always find an appreciative audience in Israel (as long
as you continue to pay them). Let's face it, the tactics are the same.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. Yes, you are confused.
Why do you focus on the false notion of who is outraged and who isn't? Is this about the political litmus testing of various members of the public or the sanctioned behavior of a nation's uniformed military forces?

First and most irrelevantly, those who're appalled at the behavior of people in this immoral "war" have been appalled since before it began, many having foreseen events of this precise kind. In case you weren't looking, millions of people marched and demonstrated against this illegal war since even before it first began. We (many of us as Veterans) foresaw precisely these kinds of abuses by this rogue administration.

Next, there's a significant difference between uniformed military personnel, under a nation's military command structure, abusing civilians who're imprisoned, shackled, and helpless, and the desecration of the already-dead bodies of non-uniformed combatants who have absolutely no protections under the Geneva Conventions. Even if this were a "legal war," those four mercenaries would be regarded, at best, as spies and not afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions. In a "real war," they'd be immediately executed -- they have absolutely no right to even the protections of POWs.

On the flip side, it is illegal to wage war against civilians. As the occupying force, the US has an affirmative legal (and moral) obligation to ensure the safety of the civilian population, and an even greater legal (and moral) obligation to ensure the safety of people who're detained awaiting trial and due process.

If you can't comprehend any distinction between the torture and abuse of people bound hand and foot in the custody of a military force and the mob cremations of the bodies of illegal combatants who've assaulted indigenous civilians ... then I don't think your 'politics' are much of a mystery.

Sieg Heil? :eyes:
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Yes it may indeed be just you.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:47 AM by Misunderestimator
We are in THEIR country for one. And what they did to the bodies of combat troops at war with them was surely awful. But to abuse captured and defenseless prisoners is quite different.

Comparing how you would feel about the sexual and psychic humiliation of your child to how a Muslim parent would feel just does not work. I'm sure many would rather die than suffer this sort of humiliation.

And none of it is more appalling than anything else. I have been daily appalled since the end of 2000.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. Maybe Something Happened BEFORE That Angered Them
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:49 AM by Dinger
Did you ever think of that? Those pictures were taken BEFORE the sickening display at Fallujah. Were those soldiers who were displayed in such a disgusting fashion? Or were they "contractors"? There's been so much news lately, that I confess I forgot, but if my memory serves me correctly, they were not U.S. soldiers. Correct me if I'm wrong. I can take it.
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Tina H Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
37. Because it is fair to expect higher standards of behavior . . .
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:51 AM by Tina H
from a relatively wealthy army that suffers relatively few casualties, than from a conquered civilian populace that has suffered relatively many civilian casualties.

This is especially so when the conquering army is supposedly there to stop the torture that occurred under the previous regime.

Of couse, torturing prisoners and mutilating corpses are both despicable types of behavior. However, understanding the larger context tends to make one somewhat angrier at the smiling US war criminals than the frustrated Iraqi civilian criminals.
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birdbrain Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. We're supposed to be the good guys, right?
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Why are you setting the standard for our behavior relative to the outrages commited against mercenaries in Fallujah? What they do wrong, doesn't make what we do right.

Next GOP talking point please.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
43. What they did was bad
but remember that the bodies were mutilated AFTER they died. They didn't torture live people.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
46. Those weren't "our guys"
who were mutilated and dragged through the streets. Either you're not paying attention or you're deliberately trying to confuse the issue. They were mercenaries, that's all.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
47. unrelated on the one hand... and frightfully related on the other
there was great sorrow and outrage expressed by many at the time of the mutilations of US workers in Iraq. This is Latest Breaking News - so the current discussion reflects the current news, and not somehow a reflection on the discussion of the previous news. In that way the discussions are unrelated.

One sad, potentially tragic way these are related, is the reaction on the ground in Iraq to the news of the sadistic, humiliating treatment of those imprisoned - often civilians picked up in sweeps that have nothing to do with the insurgency - but have no recourse for quick release (this has been reported - see Sy Hersh's article in the New Yorker which is based on the military investigation's report.) The tragic likely result is what now will happen (be done to) any US troops captured by others? If those in Fallujah were so angry as to engage in, or at the least cheer on such horrendous treatment of those captured and killed... what will happen next.

The Geneva Conventions protect US troops who get captured, as well as protecting those captured by US troops. Some of the outcry against the current situation in Guantanamo - is based in fear of what happens in future conflicts when US troops are captured? Do their captures also claim some special term to avoid having to follow international treaties and the Geneva Conventions? Our policies have made things much more dangerous for our troops serving on foreign soil. This current controversy - and the additional pictures and implications that it is more widespread than a few incidents - make things even MORE dangerous to those serving.

Reading how the President's speech was received in the Arab world is not comforting. Apparently it was seen as being words more for domestic consumption (US and elections), than an appology and declaration to be followed by actions that will hold people accountable, and will prevent future such incidents. Be that true, or not, that impression is what the people resisting/rebelling see /hear/ respond to. Does that make the next captured US soldier or employee more, or less safe?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. 'Our guys' are civilians contracted by the US
military to do the dirty work, pebbles. Don't be confused, the Iraqis are not confused about who are their friends or enemies. Of course, mutilating burnt bodies is despicable. So is mutilating and killing children with bombs and bullets. Do you really think that may not infuriate the Iraqi people? it is amazing that there has not been more despicable acts by Iraqis. Nothing justifies such despicable acts whether committed by the US or the enemies we create.
This nation is supposed to consist of people of integrity and conscience and I would hope, and no doubt, you follow the same concepts.
Think about US leadership that would invade a country that has proved to be no threat to our nation. The results of that invasion has been thousands of dead Iraqis, innocent children, women and men. Iraq is left with a destroyed infrastructure and little hope for a peaceful future thanks to US leadership. Is this right? Think about it. Think about the whole picture. Are we to be a nation that is so degraded that we will attack and diseminate a nation that has not attacked us or is no immediate threat to our well being?
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. The difference is the 4 American mercenaries were already dead...
...when they were mutilated and dragged through the streets. They were killed instantly in the initial attack.

The abuse in the prisons involves mostly innocent people who are alive and being held without charges. Regardless of what the Iraqis do to us, that does not give us license to ignore the Geneva Convention. After all, we are supposed to be "one nation under God," not Nazi Germany.

:kick:

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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
66. Where is your outrage for the guy dragged to death in Texas
I think we should brutalize someone because of it don't you? :shrug: What does one possibly have to do with the other?
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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
68. Well, there is a difference...
The difference is that this is America, and contrary to what seems to be the popular belief, we don't tolerate torture of those entrusted to our care under the guise of "liberation". With this sort of activity going on is it any wonder our guys are mutilated and drug through the streets? Do you think the actions of these animals will win us favor with the Iraqi's? How about the organized resistance thats kicking our asses?

Additionally, those 'contract workers' you mentioned are very well trained mercenaries who don't play by the same rules as the military and have partaken in their fair share of torture and abuse. I'm sorry, but I don't have any compassion for them. Read more about those 'contract workers' here:

http://www.blackwaterusa.com /

Stripped and humiliated? Surely you have seen the pictures? No? Here are a few for you:



Maybe your son would like to be drug around on a leash?



Or maybe you can explain how this picture is somehow humiliating rather than some kind of torture? (Ill give you the stripping part...it makes the electrical conductivity so much better)



I suppose that using a pair of womens underwear to cover a Muslims face is just 'humiliation' right? Or does it cross the line to torture when he is apparently stripped down and strapped to a bunk? Are you aware of how the Muslim faith views things like this? Probably not...if you do, you don't care.



And this individual looks so embarrassed to be HANDCUFFED to a cage wall. I forget...is this humiliation or torture?

I was nice and didn't include the photo of the individual that was allegedly murdered.

If the torture by our troops has been going on as long as it is rumored to have, then I certainly cant blame the Iraqi's for taking out their aggressions on our troops when they are caught. Karma is a bitch and this is one of the main reasons why this shitty administration needs to go. We will have no standing in the world and our citizens will be (have become) targets for decades to come.

Liberators indeed. "Meet the new boss...."

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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
75. I certainly remember...
most DUer's being outraged by "our guys" (actually contract workers, I believe) being burned and mutilated.

I'm pretty tired of hearing that lame accusation.
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. Here is the Thing

This was about humilating people to their very core. Muslim men don't show their bodies in their households - stripping and exposing themselves is not just about stripping and exposing - it is about undermining their beliefs, their traditions. Consider your own faith, and ask yourself, what if I was forced to do something that violated one or more of the major tenets of my faith?

Then our mantra is - no more torture, Saadam was about torture - we are about freedom, we care, we are there for you -- and then this behavior shows we are doing something different than what we say (hmm. first we were exposed for our wmd lies, now our alternative reason for war in Iraq is being undermined by our behavior).

I am sick about what this is doing to the vast majority of men and women who are in Iraq or elsewhere for us - to be without family, food, protection, to be told you have to stay longer, to be shot at and bullied, and then to have to deal with this further insult to your reputation - digusting.

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pebbles1 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. wonderful post
This kind of post is what I expect from this board. May I ditto your post?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. You may ditto this too
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:50 AM by saigon68
How many Thugs are in this picture?

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I6126-200...

I count 8

And 3 helpless Iraqi POW's
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. Actually it's nine!
:)
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. YOU ARE RIGHT 9
What are the odds of 9 people out of 130,000

just happpening to get together to do a FEW WAR CRIMES ???

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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
74. and why do a couple of our troops look so fat and out of shape?
these are our warriors? Looks to me like there is a steady supply of beer available to these. They are totally out of shape.
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. what disgusts me
is that people do not seem to know the EXTENT of the abuse. They seem to think it was limited to making men lie on top of each other naked in a pyramid. After listening to Imus, Mancow, et al, they seem to be clueless about these creeps forcing the men to pose as though performing oral sex on each other, RAPE of men with a broom or chem light, RAPE of female prisoners, and MURDER.

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. wasn't one of *'s big beefs with Saddam the 'Rape Rooms'?
Edited on Thu May-06-04 07:56 AM by ixion
Seems like they're still there, only we're running the show now. :-(
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. exactly
I wonder if Saddam raped the men, too?
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Bush was planning on riding Saddam's torture and rape rooms...
...right into 4 more years. Now every time he mentions it people will envision a picture of our soldiers torturing and raping Iraqis in their mind. Not a very pretty picture.

Don

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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I'm just afraid not enough people know about the rape
it sure doesn't seem like many know how bad this is (I'm talking outside of DU). I dunno, I'm just so frustrated. My husband could do nothing but shake his head and stare in silence when it first aired on 60 Minutes. He's a soldier and he knew their excuse of not being trained in the Geneva Convention was bullshit. He was in Iraq. He knows how bad this makes all U.S. troops look to the world.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
73. Yep, the media has changed focus to Rumy...Will he stay or Go! nt
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
51. *sigh* and just last Friday the pResident declared that there are no
more torture and rape rooms in Iraq. Not sure if the statement demonstrated intentional ignorance, arrogance, or the assumption that the American people are not paying attention to the news. Keep in mind - the pictures and report (including the reports of the sodomizing with objects (torture) and witnessed rape) were already in the public domain.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. After * is voted out, we must insist on free higher education for everyone
just as it exists in civilized countries.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. CALL TO ACTION: Allow cameras into Abu Ghraib Prison Now!
This is important. We must demand that the ICRC, the UN and Amnesty International be allowed access to Abu Ghraib, NOW. TODAY!

They must be allowed to go in there with cameras and they must be allowed to take pictures of the prisoners, NOW. Not next month, or next week or even tomorrow. NOW!

Everyday that we lose, is another day we lose valuable evidence. There are way too many reports of prisoners being severely beaten and even killed. In any brutality case, about the only way to prove it in a US court of law, is if you have pictures. And the pictures must be taken inside the prison in order to prove that that was were the brutality was inflicted.

The reason this is so urgent is that bruises fade, prisoners can be moved, the worst cases are being hidden right now.

Please write your reps and the media and demand that they send in cameras? Thanks!


http://www.house.gov/writerep /

http://www.caan.org/letterto.html
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
22.  link to Wash Post
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
39. Lynndie England and her Merry Band of Thugs
Edited on Thu May-06-04 08:58 AM by saigon68
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I5628-200...

Click Link to see Lynndie Disciplining Iraqi POW with a leash










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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #39
52. Oliver North, I believe, took part in this torture. Live web cam tapes
where are they? Most soldiers had these cameras attached to their helmets. With 100,000 or live camera feeds in Iraq are you telling me not one recorded the tortures? Where are the tapes? Being erased/deleted!


Or at least he, North, knew about it from the beginning.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
70. SOMEONE JUST DELETED THE NASTIEST PICTURE OFF THE SERVER
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:21 PM by saigon68
NICE CENSORSHIP asshole

but I still ahve it

click link

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I6126-200...
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
53. Sy Hersh said on O'Reilly
that this scandal would get much worse, that there are many pictures and videos that are even more appalling.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Sy's one of the most well-connected war journalists
And in particular, he's well fed by dissidents within the US military--the sensible guys who hate our extreme politicial ideologues.

If he says those images exist, it's very likely they do.

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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
55. Your tax dollars at work!
Well, geez, Washington, if you're going to commit unspeakable human atrocities with our taxes, why didn't you say so? Here, take all our money! At least we know it's going for the cause of democracy!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
69. * has a contingency plan...
I light of the revelations depicted in the photos hidden agenda classified as Bush policy.

Bush and his minions have been bracing for the backlash from Americans for a very long time and have no intention of relinquishing power anytime soon.


If you remember just last week, * on the campaign trail heavily promoting the renewal Of PA1 and approval of PA2.. If you think living with PA1 was bad enough, the tenets in PA2 guarantee Bush himself can designate by virtue of sole decree, your status as an enemy combatant for doing nothing more than peacefully protesting at an anti-Bush political rally.

Included in this broadened power is having you trucked off to N.C. stripped of your right to counsel, incarcerated until you are processed and sent to a designated combatant holding camp, perhaps never to be heard from again.

As bad as these pictures are of the tortured civilians and prisoners and the revulsion we feel at the degradation on both sides of humanity. These pictures are but a window into what may be in store for all of us.

We should think long and hard, using what we have learned about this administration's definition of American; as the impetus of shedding light onto the "dark" side of the Bush Administration, and the Republican Party that supports this unholy fascism.

What may have been uncovered here is more than meets the eye. These photos may serve as an introduction to the cruel and unusual punishment they intend be visited on anyone not of their ideology, including us.
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The Blue Knight Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Words cannot describe how utterly disgusted this makes me.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Knowing what we know now of Bush's capability...I might have understated
Bush's vision of communicating punishment to those not of the same ideology...
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