UMass Grad Student: Tillman's not a hero.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200&par...


AMHERST, Mass. -- A University of Massachusetts student has openly criticized Pat Tillman, calling the former NFL player a Rambo-like idiot in the school paper.


The column in question was submitted by graduate student Rene Gonzalez and published Wednesday in the Daily Collegian. It was titled "Pat Tillman is not a hero: he got what was coming to him."


Gonzalez writes that Tillman was a "Rambo" who probably acted out of "nationalist patriotic fantasies." In his own neighborhood in Puerto Rico, according to Gonzalez, Tillman would not have been considered a hero, but a "pendejo," or idiot.


The column drew harsh criticism from many on campus. University president Jack Wilson says the op-ed piece was "disgusting, arrogant and intellectually immature."

(more)

in this poisoned atmosphere in the New Bushamerica. The University Presidents remarks regarding a student "Op-Ed" piece were disgusting, arrogant, and intellectually immature.

A university president should recognize that a critique like that says nothing more than "I didn't like it" and "I don't like him", without providing a foundation for the criticism. Someone in his position should realize that more is expected of him.

He (the president) is no doubt afraid of losing funding, either from the government or industry, if he doesn't toe the line on this matter, though. We will probably never know what he really thinks.

The president of the university has just as much right as anyone else to comment on a student editorial. You make controversial remarks, expect to hear a lot of criticism. If this student were to be reprimanded, demoted or disciplined THAT would be censorship, but criticism of her writings does NOT constitute "censorship".

I said it was a critique that was short of content, and that a university president should provide a more thoughtful response (in my opinion).

That has always been one of the biggest misunderstandings of free speech. The response should be just as free. Thus, free speech exists

Gonzales had a free speech right to say what he did. At the same time, people who disagree with him have a free speech right to say what they think about his position.

Yep.

What do you call a poor republican?...a SUCKER!
Do you really believe that they have the working class in their plans?
If you do, you need to get your head out of the sand and look at what your selected goons have done to the middle/lower class.
But you won't, because the wingnuts tell you what to believe.
So much for critical thinking on your part. You are being lied to, and the ones telling the lies are laughing at you. Doesn't that bother you?, to be used?
Reality, it's a bitch, eh?.
And to call Tillman a hero without acknowledging the sacrifices made by the regular Joe's (and Jane's) is plain wrong.

in the boston area are ALL OVER this. Turning the views of one idiot into a "liberal" college thing.

and he's not only an idiot but also a complete and total jerk. I don't question his right to be an idiot or to write idiotic things but I'm not going to defend the piece itself. Why do you give a crap one way or the other about my opinion of the writer of an article that is getting way more attention than it deserves?

If you're gonna make comments like that you've got to expect some kind of reaction non?

Good to see you back here,
Redleg

I split my free time between watching hockey and enjoying the warmer weather outside. Life is too short.

He was pretty harsh in his opinion piece, but I'll defend his right to speak his piece no matter how harsh.

I'd never heard of Tillman until his death (football's not my thing), but I don't believe that he should be made into a plaster saint simply due to the circumstances of his death.

That is how liberals get unfairly painted and why we make easy targets sometimes. When someone on the left writes or says misguided drivel the rest of us get smacked with it.

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable for the far-right to act nuts. That's sort of what they are all about.

Tillman sacrificed for what he believed in. I doubt he was an ideologue. He was simply changed by 9-11 and wanted to sacrifice his career for his country. George Bush exploited 9-11, not Pat Tillman. I've been changed by 9-11 too. I read several newspapers a day, article after article, essay after essay, book after book in order to inform myself. I gave up chances to work in video and film to work towards a more political career. I worked as a columnist etc. After 9-11, we all changed and wanted to do something. Pat Tillman reacted the way he did out of love and integrity. I'm sorry that person wrote that garbage about him. The writer certainly has the right to do so, however, and I support that. The same as I support Safire, Krauthammer and the other glorious idiot's rights for free speech.

Sacrifice for what one believes in does not equal heroism. Were that the case the SS troopers who died in WW2 would be heroes but I think we all agree they were not. Sadly, 50 years hence, the American troops who die in Bush's War on Terra will probably be considered in the same sense as Hitler's soldiers. In fact, to a majority of the world's population they are considered as such now.
I believe Tillman was acting out of emotion and Rambo-like fantasy when he joined the army. Real heroes, like MLK or Mandela put their lives on the line for principle and reason and justice, not for the lords of Wall St.

for this statement:

"I believe Tillman was acting out of emotion and Rambo-like fantasy when he joined the army"

or because you don't understand how someone could fell a real need to stand up and fight for their country, it's just a Rambo like fantasy.

I doubt Pat Tillman's fantasy's ran to much more than scoring a touchdown in the super bowl.

I believe he was acting out of emotion because he joined the army after 9-11. There was not much logic or reason evident anywhere in those heady days. If he really was consumed with the need to defend his country why didn't he enlist after college? It took a large emptional event to convince him to enlist. Rambo fantasies? The guy was a college graduate, he could have been an officer, he chose the Rangers, and if you don't think Rangers are motivated by Rambo fantasies, meet some of them
I'm not a pacifist, if our country was threatened I would do what was possible to aid in the defense. But let's be honest, the soldiers in Iraq and the "Stan" are not "fighting for their country`" to believe they are is just more emotion and fantasy.e

Going on just belief is the way George Bush operates.

Show me some proof he was NOT acting out of fantasy and emotion. Fantasy and emotion is what motivates young men to war. They (and you) may cloak it however handy, but spare me.
Ever see the Marine Corps tv ad where the medievel (white) knight morphes into a modern-day marine? If that's not fantasy and emotion What the fuck is it? The ad must be effective, they've been running it for years. I guess a "lose your legs for Halliburton" campaign would be too realistic.

under your line of thinking, anyone who joined the military after 911 has a Rambo fantasy. whatever you may think of Tillman's enlistment, he choose the hardest path to get to afgahnistan....the army rangers, navy seals and marine recon...all of the special forces, are among the hardest tests one can take in the military. while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, you should realize Tillman could have went to Afghanistan as a typical grunt and not had to put himself through such demanding training.

fantasy and emotion are not the only motivators to war either...most certainly not fantasy....there is no fantasy in war...only death and destruction for either side. emotion can be used for just about anything under the sun...emotion motivates humans in every task they do in one form or another. your point is mute.

i joined the navy in 1988 because the job market in Texas wasn't exactly running on all cylinders at the time...hardly an emotional cause nor some Rambo fantasy, despite the fact that things in the gulf were heating up and the situation in china at the time wasn't exactly peacefull. i had a friend recently join the army to get money to finish his BS degree, knowing full well he is going to the desert paradise of Iraq.

if there was emotion involved, it was Tillman's wanting to do something for his country...something he thought was honorable. he gave up being a millionaire and a celebrity to do so. would you have made that sacrifice? personally, i doubt Tillman had fantasies about killing anyone except those who might have been responsible for destroying the towers. there were quite a few people in America, both liberal and conservative, who felt the same way.

although i respect him for his service, i also don't think pat Tillman is a hero, no more a hero than any other soldier who has succumbed to bush's war on terra. he was a soldier who died doing what he was told to do, what he volunteered for. every soldier and sailor who has ever served knows the risks when they sign the dotted line and raise their right hand.

Tillman wasn't stupid, just inspired by the events of 911...inspired in a way that only pat Tillman and god will ever know. you are certainly not qualified to think for him nor anyone else, or know why they did what they did. Tillman got more press than the average soldier because of what he was before he was a soldier. nothing more, nothing less.

you are making a sweeping judgment of a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds with your argument. this is the same as the stereotypical "all military is right leaning" debate. it is not always so.

Fantasy and emotion are not the only motivators to war either...most certainly not fantasy....there is no fantasy in war...only death and destruction for either side. emotion can be used for just about anything under the sun...emotion motivates humans in every task they do in one form or another. your point is mute.

In my opinion, much of American culture has been fueled by fantasy of guns and killing. From Foxkids (which we get in Europe and my kids are not allowed to watch) to computer games, to half of Hollywood. The Rambo metaphor has some legitimacy in my view. I don't blame Tillman, I blame the media and entertainment culture that breeds the killer mentality within American mainstream culture.

We Europeans understand more about death and destruction and war than most Americans having suffered through two world wars, and decades of terrorism. My great grandfather spend two years in a German camp for sending signals to England (he worked for Philips all his life after the war). Our cities were smashed. We had a hundred 9-11's.

And please, before you pipe into the 'we saved your ass' diatribe, Canadians liberated my city and they were in WW2 from the start... not after the Pearl Harbor fiasco of which your top players knew was coming and gave you reason enough to turn from fueling the war which made (Prescott) Bush, Harriman and Walker wealthy beyond belief selling guns.

Here's what war's about. The Bastard's have been doing it since WWI.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And the NRA, pro-gun, savage-inane-kill Chuck Norris, Rambo culture starts with the cartoons that are spoonfed to your kids (and to ours in Holland). You should take a minute and watch a little what they are showing kids... It's easy when they shut up in front of a TV. But what are they being programmed?

There is a lot of talk at DU about propaganda and the myth of the liberal media etc. Watch what you kids are watching.

Because that's what spawns the Tillman's of the world. He was in Afghanistan, he was where he should be, and that's the only reason I have an inkling of respect for your new American hero (wag the dog).

For the rest - I feel sorry for the kids who have been lied too in Iraq. As for the mercenaries, I feel nothing. The South Africans America has hired to do the dirty work are the lowest of the leftovers from the Boers and their racist apartheid regime. Don't you find it absurd that your tax dollars are going to pay thick headed Boers who are experts in killing Kaffirs? Because that's what the regime gave them the skills they have which are now useless in South Africa?

Your point is mute.

and where, oh where did i call tillman a hero? i couldn't give a rats ass about the mercenaries either...in fact i never once mentioned them. you have placed words in my mouth. there is little i support in this war, short of the individual efforts of soldiers in the field, and there was certainly no part of aparthied i respect.

here are my exact words...."although i respect him for his service, i also don't think pat Tillman is a hero, no more a hero than any other soldier who has succumbed to bush's war on terra."

what you consider to be mainstream in america isnt what mainstream is in my house. we are all not cowboys like john wayne or bloodthirsty killers, and we do not all have closets full of semi automatic weapons, although i do own firearms personally.

you do not need to lecture me about what has happened, terrorist attack-wise, in europe. i have traveled enough in europe to know this, and don't lump me in with some brain-dead fox news watcher, because most of my sources come from this site and sites like it, as well as raw news sites via the net. i gave up on the networks years ago. we had been very lucky here in the states prior to 911, and you and i are in agreement that it was only a matter of time before it happened here. i wish more people here could see that.

as for saving your ass...canada was part of the allies. the united states pretty much armed most of the allies, so in one way or another, we supported it. read up on the lend lease program, then get back to me. are you happy...you made me play a card for a game i never once mentioned anything about in the first place.

you know whats sad...the fact that i can not express an opinion about a fallen soldier without inspiring the wrath of the far wing of the side i have been a stallwart for since my early teens. i feel sorry for our soldiers over there, but god forbid i mourn their tragic loss via this war. it kills me to see them dieing for such a worthless reason. it hurts me that our government has seen fit to send them to their deaths, as well as the killing of innocents in the process. this whole thing is sad. i never said otherwise. chastise me if you will, but i will not piss on the grave of a fallen soldier....whatever his reason for enlisting. perhaps if mr. tillman had been dutch, you might be whistling a different tune.

war is sad. maybe you have a point about the fantasy part of it, but ultimatly it is all about death. i was correct there...show me i was wrong. our media inspires this, no doubt about it and no argument from me either, but one only has to look at the timeline of the rambo movies, or the swartzeneger war classics(sarcasm alert there btw)...all done during periods of right leaning administrations. it has now come to a boil here, but rest assured there is an even half of this country that does not support this administration or it's objectives. that part is left out and tucked away from view by our beloved media. you post here to, and there are a dozen or more active threads about media bias in these forums, so that should be painstakingly clear to you.

again, i refuse to feel guilty about feeling sorry for our soldiers who are killed or maimed in this non-war. i pity them all...i hurt for their useless sacrifices...i hurt for their families...i hurt for the innocents that are killed and wounded. there is nothing right about all of this, and i have been opposed to this from the start...it is all so senseless. no one in this mess deserves any of this, not our soldier, not the iraqi citizens...no one. i have never said otherwise

to go thorough life thinking people who do things you don't understand must be doing it for some low and base emotion. I don't know why he did but for some reason you insist you do, is it just him you feel this way about or is it everyone who does something you don't approve of or understand. This kind of stereotyping says a lot more about you than you could ever have to say about Pat Tillman.

Rest in peace Pat and thank you for your service and sacrifice.

How sad, to go through life believing the hogwash about service and sacrifice. If Tillman wanted to make the U.S. a better place there's a thousand and one things he could have done. Instead he decided to go shoot people in the third world. That song's been played so many times...it never gets any better. Instead of posting Mark Twain's photo on your post why don't you read some more of his work, especially his "War Prayer," that short piece was his take on the fallacy of "service and sacrifice" circa the colonial wars of 1898. Something tells me were Twain alive today he'd agree with me on this issue not you. He'd probably be quite depressed to learn after a century Americans are still falling for the same old tired lines.
Of course it's ALL AN AD CAMPAIGN. I understand that, you don't and neither did Tillman.

of The War Prayer, I understand it probably better than you. Think I've probably read every word Twain wrote. I'm not the person claiming to know Pat Tillman's motivation, you are, and can't even admit you really have no idea why Pat Tillman did what he did.

Service an sacrifice are not hogwash, believing so puts you in the same place on the left that the black helicopters believers inhabit on the right.

We'll leave Twain for another day. Service and sacrifice for corporate elitism is hogwash and I stand by that.
If you really want to continue this let's get back to my original post - let's say there was a semi-pro soccer player in Weimar Germany. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer and he really believes Hitler's agit-prop about the dangers communism and international jewry present to the Homeland. He believes the newspaper reports about the Polish excursions on the frontier. He's blond and athletic and he joins an SS commando unit. After serving in N.Africa he's sent to the western front where he's KIA. Would you laud his service and sacrifice as well?

You ask our colleague to defend the statement:
"I believe..."
and your evidence is
"I doubt...".

We're all free to believe and doubt here. I had my first-ever angry exchange on DU last weekend - w/ a bunch of Yankee fans.

They doubt, I believe. It is an unwinnable argument unless we bring facts to the table (which won't be available till October for the soon-to-be-longsuffering Yankees inshalla).

All of us can see a point in Gonzalez' column, but we know he expressed himself poorly.

Belief is only 1 side of the coin: doubt's on the other.

and much respect!

However, the guy's grandfather served in WW2; he had relatives fight in other causes and said that he felt he had done nothing in terms of sacrificing himself for our country. Now, whether or not you agree with a war or not, the guy gave up millions of dollars to do what he felt was the honorable thing to do. I will not debate about the definition of what a hero is, because we all have different ideals and convictions. Tillman was a unique man with a lot of guts and I salute that. That said, I do understand what you are saying and respect your point and opinions.

No one but Tillman himself knew what he was thinking in his heart of hearts, but you cannot deny the man had guts. Maybe he really was a Rambo-type, but from what people who knew him have said, he really believed in what he was doing and paid the price, even if many of us think it was wrong.

If you commit a crime when you belive you're being virtuous, are you a criminal or a hero? Neither. A tragic victim of your own complicity.

This leads to our biggest current ethical dilemma: keeping tributes to the fallen from getting more 'innocents' killed.
I weep for our troops as I do for the other victims of amoral governments. But beyond sheer emotion and because I'm willing to say out loud painful things that will cause some who read this to flame with outrage:

The deifying tribute is used to cover up and perpetuate atrocities. That is the painful truth no one wants to say out loud about the tragedy of our troops killing innocents and being killed themselves. Once our troops get killed, their deaths are used to recruit even more complicity to 'make it worth the lives already spent.'

While all of us have been lied to since birth about the virtue of 'our'government and our troops have signed up trusting red-white-and-blue to equal Godliness and Family Values Defended,...
our troops CHOSE to KILL ON COMMAND. Something that utterly defies any sense of rational humanity. This blind trust and obedience must stop. The lessons of Vietnam have been totally forgotten. Trusting 'our' government can destroy the whole bloody planet.

This is where complicity comes into it. I don't care how much you want to deify our troops for self-sacrifice, they also chose to BLINDLY SACRIFICE OTHERS ON THE OTHER END OF THEIR RIFLES.

As Rumsfeld would say:
Does this mean that is tragic? Yes.
Does this mean that they are responsible for the situation the neocons have put them in? Of course not.
Does this mean they didn't use their brains and educate themselves enough to find out whether they can trust the US chain of command with their own and other's lives? Sadly, yes.

You can say simple things like "hate the war, not our troops."
I sure don't hate our troops and I wish them safety and a speedy return to their loved ones because they are victims, too.

But there is some element of personal responsibility involved in opening your hands to our disgusting government and saying "TELL ME WHO TO SHOOT."

Again, yes our troops were totally lied to about why the were off to war. But I've known not to trust the US gov't since I saw the Pentagon Papers when I was 10 years old. In 1979 when Carter reinstated selective service registration in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, I signed up while my buddys did not. My attitude was 'come and get me, assholes. I'll make the biggest public stink about your policies I possibly can and fight you off or do my jail time to keep from fighting your fucking oil wars.'

I wish more people knew what the US gov't was all about and stopped helping it murder so many people.

I also think that in the Tillman case, there has to be some amount of connection with at least some people - He was a hero in Football = He was a hero in the Army.

While I mostly expect to hear that from right wing people, there seem to be some sports fans around here who make that connection, also.

I wish more people had knowledge about their own government, as well.

They NEED that knowledge and information in order to make informed decisions and in order to take any action towards change.

Moreover, right now, we are fighting an "enemy" that has declared a "War on Ideas". That extreme right-wing has actually declared a war on ideas. It's bad enough that the pendulum of our government has swung so freakin' far towards corporatism that it is literally starving its own people but to add such extreme right-wing "wars" to the brew is very frightening to me.

We are in serious danger of losing everything we supposedly stand for: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for ALL human beings.

"It's perfectly acceptable for the far-right to act nuts. That's sort of what they are all about." And they now own everything - coincendence?

don't need to feel the DU hate right now

I'm tired of this country worshipping mindless nationalism. It's killing us.

And looks at the other posts on here expressing the same kind of nationalism that breeds fascism. Not that there's any fascism on DU at all *cough* - it's so nice to be part of a liberal community.

We dissagree with you and we are facists, you disagree and you are a lone voice in the wilderness. Stop throwing around terms like "facist" just because you have a minority opinion.

are you a veteran? I'm just curious.

Army, 1972-75 and I don't think Tilman is a hero. I think (as far as I know) that he was a "stand-up" guy, who did what he thought he should do. And he was rich enough to follow his wishes. I don't know what motivated his enlistment, I do know that in so doing, he became a pawn, a tool, of the Bush crime gang. Was he duped? Probably. If he ever figured it out, he did not act on his enlightenment; if he never figured it out...well, he seems to have performed his duties well and for that his family can be proud.

but to imply we are fascist for disagreeing with this student? Nonsense.

I don't think that Pat Tillman's post-9/11 decision to join the Army was nationalistic or worthy of criticism.

In my opinion, the invasion of Afghanistan was different than the war in Iraq. Afghanistan was a defensive reaction to 9/11, Iraq was an opportunistic war that was draped with 9/11 as an excuse.

There has been no proof as to who perpetrated the September 11, 2001 attacks.

In case you din't know, there is a commission going on that is trying to find that out now.

I belive that the 9/11 commission is presently studying what allowed the break-down in secuirty, not who was behind the attack. That was my understanding.

we still have no proof as to who is responsible for the attacks on our soil, right?

If so, what was Tillman fighting for?

You said that determining who was behind 9/11 was the point of the 9/11 Commission and I was correcting you. At no time was I admitting that Bin Laden was not behind it. Based on communication intercepts and the fact that Afghanistan has no oil (if it did I might doubt the intel there like I doubted the intel in Iraq) I believe that Al Queda was behind it.

I will grant that I am not certain that Bin Laden was as much the brains behind Al Queda as we once believed but, I have no doubt that Al Queda was the party responsible.

Can you say, "Caspian Sea"?

Do you mind sharing your proof that it was Al Qaeda? A few links, maybe?

Or do you simply trust your government to tell you the truth?

Afghanistan, oil, and pipelines (which we were determined to get with "either a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs"; they refused the gold so we went in with the bombs)



The Taliban's unwillingness to accept US conditions frustrated the Americans. According to the author: "At one moment during the negotiations the US representatives told the Taliban 'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs'."

It is well established that the Bush administration, and President George W Bush's family in particular, have strong oil corporate links. Vice-president Dick Cheney was until the end of last year president of Halliburton, a company that provides services for the oil industry. National security advisor Condoleeza Rice was a manager for Chevron between 1991 and last year, while commerce secretary Donald Evans and energy secretary Stanley Abraham worked for oil giant Tom Brown.

As journalist John Pilger asserted, the Taliban were trained and supported by the CIA and SAS, Britain's intelligence agency. Soon after their takeover of Kabul in 1996, their leaders were entertained by the executives of Unocal in Houston, Texas.

With secret US government approval, the company offered them a generous cut of the profits of the oil and gas pumped through the pipeline that the Americans wanted to build from Soviet Central Asia through Afghanistan. A US diplomat said: "The Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis did." He explained that "Afghanistan will become a US oil colony; there would be huge profits for the West, no democracy and the legal persecution of women. We can live with that."

Although the deal fell through, it still remains an urgent priority of the Bush administration. The Caspian Basin has the greatest source of untapped fossil fuel on earth and enough, according to one estimate, to meet the US's voracious energy needs for generations. Only if the pipeline runs through Afghanistan can the US hope to control it.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy...


Here's a link to get you started: http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/front.htm

,...so to speak, in addition to Pakistan funding. I will definitely give Tillman the benefit of the doubt and presume that he had no idea how contrived was the decision to hit Afghanistan. No American citizen would want to believe the real underlying motivations for such decisions.

Tillman was a pawn. I will believe his motivations were sincere. But, personally, I view him as an unfortunate pawn whose trust and talents were abused by USA authority.

I feel very sad, for that.

What a nice way to put it. I think historians might call it a retaliatory attack, but your phrasing seems so much nicer.

Right, we should have just sat still and apologized for letting our buildings get in the way of their planes.

Bad Americans attacking those nice Al Queda folks...

You are so adept at reading people's minds. Not accurate, but adept nonetheless.

why did the US bomb Afghanistan and not Saudi Arabia?

Remember, Afghanistan offered up Al Qaeda to Bush on two occasions, both times the offer was rejected.


Still don't think it had anything to do with getting that oil pipeline installed?

The war against Afghanistan was unnecessary.

It could have been done without killing so many.

And don't forget: Bush needs their oil, and their land for the pipeline.
(Clinton invited the Talibs in 1998 to negotiate that. Bush gave them $43 million in spring 2000.) There was nothing "defensive" about killing thousands of Aghanis then, just like there was no defensive aspect to killing thousands of Iraqis from 1991 till now.

The Afghan "war" like the Iraq "war" could have been solved by negotiations.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/07/ret.us.taliban /
U.S. rejects Taliban offer to try bin Laden
Nic Robertson Kelly Wallace | 10-07-2001


http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,5739...
Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over
Guardian Staff | 10-14-2001
"Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US.
"If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added."

would have been to bomb Saudi Arabia back into the stone age since a majority of the hijackers and Osama himself are the products of Saudi society.

most especially one who chose to serve our country in the military for very modest pay - are not helpful. They are hurtful, especially to the family and friends of the deceased.

I cannot imagine speaking so unkindly about any of our soldiers. Mr. Gonzalez should, in my opinion, be ashamed of himself.

you may disagree on the definition of the word HERO but to denigrate the service of Mr. Tillman - to say he "got what was coming" - is unbelievably despicable.

out of line, unacceptable

Gonzalez has shown nothing more than immaturity to a massive degree, and undermined liberals in general with this moronic column.

I think "Mister" Gonzalez was just trying to stir up some shit and gain a little notoriety.

The guy is a victim of this stupid war... the same as the other kids killed and maimed.

The gung-ho-for-war media and the phony-tough Bushco rhetoric push these kids into the military where they become brainwashed by the military ethic.

I know... that was me long ago. I outgrew it after "seeing the elephant" for myself.

I'd like to see a more balanced letter that asks the question "Why did beautiful, brave kids like Tillman have their service and their sacrifice and their lives thrown away on a stupid blunder like Iraq?"

Or.... paraphrasing Kerry in 1971.... "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

But whatever our own feelings, it's smarter not to say things like this. I'm happy to praise Tillman as a hero -- pull the troops out of Iraq. I have no idea what he was like personally -- putll the troops out of Iraq. Support the troops -- pull them out of Iraq.

Besides, anyone who gives up a salary that size to serve their country has true convictions and is not a chickenhawk. Besides, he died fighting the real enemy, Al-Qaeda and he should be honored for that.

Speaking his mind in a time when it could very well cost him and his family dearly. And I guarantee it will, in this case.

See how easy it is to create a hero? Heroes, heroes, heroes everywhere...



(on edit: typo)

(at least)

know so little about? (Okay- I know I ended that sentence with a preposition- so sue me, allright?)

That's an example of some very careless and stupid free speach.

I'd like to read the whole article before commenting.

http://www.dailycollegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/...

Though the server is busy now.

patriotic fantasies" and taught dance class in Switzerland and made a porno movie when he could have gone to Viet Nam.Tillman turned down millions,acted on what he believed in,and was killed for it.
Personally,I believe we should have gone after OBL with surgical strikes rather the all out war we waged,so I guess I disagree with Tillman,but I still admire and mourn him for making the ultimate sacrifice in his country's service.

And WTF does money have to do with it?

what ESPN quotes from it), you end up with this: If Tillman was not defending the U.S. from invasion by fighting what's left of Afghanistan (which is an entirely plausible premise), was his service in Afghanistan really necessary? And, if his service really wasn't necessary, then why was he doing it?

Maybe that is a pretty good question.

So now he has to revisit the law of physics; every action has an equal/opposite reaction. Hope he's ready for it.

You are correct in that it is a common right-wing tactic to attack the person to avoid the issue (just consider Michael Moores and the attacks he has come under despite some good issues he has raised or watch FoxNews for five minutes), so what about the question as it is now presented?

This was to get a reaction. Basically the author mind reads Pat Tillman on the basis of his picture then extrapolates motives and uses as much inflammatory rhetoric as possible.

Its a Peta style op-ed.

Of course, deciphering the author's precise motives -- that sounds like an extrapolation. Now, about the question presented again . . .

The question wasn't presented by the author, you "extrapolated" it.

But it is already there in the article.

Gonzalez also says that Tillman's service was not "necessary." . . . "It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. . . . He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200&par...

Which leaves us (yet again) with the question of why he thought it was necessary to go there. Maybe it didn't have anything to do with a war movie. But, then again, what was it?

That would depend if you fall into the US is at fault for everything camp and Bush MIHOP, wouldn't it?

Otherwise, the context was a guy from a military family decides with his brother to forgoe their normal lives and enter the military after this country was attacked.

Why he did so beyond that? You would have to ask his family and friends. He refused all interviews after his decision.

how does that make him a hero?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Very sad

'69, huh? Oh, the "Old-school Quagmire."

when one refuses to pay attention and understand.

too bad people get so worked up in an effort to appear
all patriotic

Maybe we should all go overseas and get killed
so we can die hero's too!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

it seems others willingly champion such insane doings, and, astoundingly, even uphold as heros the people that DO go willingly to kill and murder.

So what would you risk your life for?

Because of people like Pat Tillman, there is no draft and you get to have as much time as you want to criticize the dead. Is that reason enough?

I don't support the war in Iraq but, we weren't in Iraq when Pat Tillman volunteered. He joined because his nation had been attacked and, for all he knew, could be attacked again.

The idea that there are real life Rambos is idiotic. Most soldiers' dreams of glory on the battlefield end when the first bullet passes their head or when their first friend gets hit.

Soldiers fight because the guy next to them will die if he or she doesn't fight. You don't have to love war, you just have to love your fellow soldiers.

Pat Tillman joined the Army because his nation had been attacked. He didn't join to enforce Bush's policies in Iraq, he just joined to protect his country and his countrymen.

Don't blame our men and women in uniform for being led be a fool. Blame the fool.

This should get big time play with this crew. A perfect foil for their jingoistic platitudinous cliches.

Why crap on somebody like that for following his ideals instead of the cash? If we crap on everybody who puts their beliefs ahead of the Almighty Dollar, we won't have anyone to defend us. Mullah Omar and the Taliban leadership of Afghanistan provided material support for an attack on U.S. soil. If we are not justified in fighting back after that sort of attack, my question would be: Is there ANYTHING worth fighting for?

I don't understand people sometimes. I'll fully admit, I would have taken the $9 million, instead of being a warrior. But this is what makes Tillman a hero. He did not make the easy choice.

is justification of an attack on our soil by perpetrators unknown?

To this day, April 29, 2004, WE STILL DO NOT KNOW WHO DID IT!

Yeah, our government told us it was OBL, w/o proof. And because they thought he was in Afghanistan, bombing that country is justification?

Tilt, tilt, tilt.

Who is responsible, any one out there a more likely culprit. Evidence against Al-Queda may not be court room strong, but is strong none the less

..until very recently. But now, I'm thinking we should have tightened intelligence up on our side, and just focused on the Al Qaeda leaders. Turns out that we got a lot of minor targets. Terrorists aren't in certain places, like governments are. Are we going to stay there forever? So far, things aren't as under control as we thought.

Tillman lays down his life for something he believes in and he is a hero...
Rachel Corrie does the same thing and is labeled an idiot by wingnuts and such.

Far as I am concerned they are both patriots who died for what they feel was right.

That when the Arizona Cardinals complete their tax-payer subsidized stadium that they will name the front entrance area :

"Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza"

Sounds like a good idea to me.

the nerve of kids these days...

Tillman hunted for terrorists in the mountains of Afghanistan -- what we should be doing instead of starting wars in Iraq -- and this moron denigrates him. A little outrage isn't "worship at the altar of nationalism," thank you very much.

change! nothing stays the same! yeah change!

think what you want

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Buy then I guess some people will laugh at anything, no matter who it hurts.

The general nature of the post was what was being laughed at.

I found that post funny, too. I love it when freepers invade. They post stuff like "THIS GUY WAS A TRUE HERO, IF YOU QUESTION THAT YOU'RE A COMPLET A$$HOLE". Not as funny as "you're all morans" but still funny.

just like all the rest of bush's willing executioners who sign up to go kill defenseless povery-stricken third-world civilians (while the "real terrorists" are escorted out of the country by pakistan's isi; see http://propagandamatrix.com/the_getaway.html )

usa usa usa!!!

Is that all you got?

Stop paying attention to what others might think, and do some thinking of your own.

You should try it.

that way, you might get the whole concept of independent thought.

How can he say Pat got what's coming to him? What an ass!

Nice post. Succinct and to the point

I know it can sometimes be a contentious point here at DU, but goddammit, I will always remember him as a hero, and a patriot.

He had served previously in Iraq, but joined the US Army (enlisted, in fact, even though he could have gone in as an officer, if he wanted to) to fight in Afghanistan. The war in Afghanistan has been diminished by the Bush Administration, but Tillman's sacrifice has certainly not been diminished in my eyes.

If we want to bitch about bad soldiers, we need look no further than the disgusting pigs involved in this ugly story:

60 Min II - US troops tortured Iraqi prisoners - mp3 & vp3 video here

It's likely a personal thing, and I doubt we'll ever reach consensus on this issue. But in the eyes of this American, Pat Tillman was a hero.

is that he personified the selflessness that can be great in a human being. I would say that 99.999% of people wouldn't turn down 4 million dollars for any reason. This guy did. He was a courageous young man who didn't live for material things, but instead lived (and died0 for something he believed in: America. Humankind's greatest hope!

I actually have a brother in the army in Iraq. I think what he said sums it up best: "The difference between Pat Tillman and everybody else over here is that noone else would have given up what he did to come here."

I am gonna go with a hunch here and say that you wouldn't have either.

You were the one who brought up money. You know, the "great thing about Pat Tillman."

Sorry, the rest of your post is about as factually sound as me claiming I have a 12" inch penis. (I do... really!) Excuse me if I don't take your word at face value, on an online forum.

I give you my word, my brother really is in Iraq, and he really did tell me that. Not the exact quote, but basically the same thing. I probally shouldn't have put it in quotes, but I wasn't trying to be dishonest about it. I was trying to say it from his point of view.

Your brother was not the subject of our debate.

may have been to kill, not to have been killed?

frankly, i have no idea if he was one of those who showed up to boot camp wearing a "kill them all, let god sort them out t-shirt" - but that mentality is beholden by a sizable minority of enlistees.

and it's not easy legally shooting someone in this county. about the only opportunity is if you live in utah - and then if you're real lucky, you may be selected to serve on a firing squad:


"On the 17th of January 1977 Gary Mark Gilmore became the first person to be executed in the U.S. for twelve years after putting up a strenuous campaign to be allowed to die. He chose shooting. Under Utah law in force then, the condemned man had the choice of shooting by firing squad or hanging. He was executed by six volunteers in the old canning factory in the prison grounds using Winchester Model 94 lever action repeating rifles loaded with Winchester Silver Tip 150-grain .30-30 caliber cartridges. Only five of the rifles had live ammunition, the sixth containing a blank round so that the firing squad would not know who had fired the fatal shots.
He was tied to a chair and had a white target pinned over his heart. After the death warrant had been read to him he was asked if there was anything he wanted to say and uttered the famous line "Lets do it"
His execution renewed the capital punishment process in America and was graphically described in the Norman Mailer book and subsequent film "The Executioner's Song".
19 years later John Taylor became the second person to suffer the same fate.

more http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/shooting.ht...


so wouldn't it be "safer" for those who wish to kill just to "volunteer" for firing squad duty? well, according to the "Utah Peace Officers Association"

"it was the responsibility of the Sheriff of the County from which the condemned man was sentenced, to furnish a firing squad. Our present law places this responsibility upon the Warden of the Utah State Prison to make all necessary arrangements for the execution. To my knowledge there has never been a prison officer who served on any firing squad and I feel confident that there never will be. Such a duty would place the officer in a very difficult position as it is necessary for him to work with an inmate population each day. However, a firing squad must be selected. This is done from a list of volunteers who have agreed to serve on such a squad. "

http://www.upoa.org/archives/Haueters/MercyonSoul.htm

with only 2 executions in the past 3 decades, there's got to be a lot of frustrated would-be killers out there. rumor has it that last time around, cash incentives were being offered so that certain "volunteers" would be more likely to be selected. sure, the $$$ involved weren't in the $4million range - but in principle, what's the difference?

is at the level of somebody who volunteers for a firing squad - interesting thought clueless but interesting.

Folks who put on this countries uniform are heroes till proved otherwise.

in both cases the goal is to kill somebody you envision as a danger to you or your way of life.

if you regard such a person as a hero, fine.


to me, heros are those who work to make our country safer through spreading peace and justice, thereby removing the root cause of terrorism. in that respect, rachie corrie is a true hero.


someone like mr. tillman, on the other hand, is surely a hero to the right-wing nutso who depend on perpetual war to gain a good measure of their political standing. surely the concept of "blowback" must be known to a university graduate with a 3.83 gpa? and yet he went, knowing that he was sure to make the usa less safe. did he never learn that you just can't go fuck up somebody else's country, and not expect there to be consequences. here's a description of afghanistan in the fall of 2001:

The U.S. war on Afghanistan is a brutal attack on a country that has already been almost destroyed by more than 20 years of foreign invasion and civil war.' The Soviet occupation, which lasted from 1979 to 1989, left more than a million people dead. Millions still live in refugee camps More than 500,000 orphans are disabled. Ten million land mines still litter the country, killing an average of 90 people per month. At 43 years, life expectancy in Afghanistan is on average 17 years lower than that for people in other developing countries. The countryside is devastated and is currently experiencing a severe drought, with 7.5 million people threatened with starvation. The death and destruction wrought by the U.S. bombing campaign-and the cut off of food aid deliveries it has caused-have already killed hundreds and produced thousands more refugees scrambling to escape into Pakistan.

But not only is Washington attacking one of the poorest countries in the world, past U.S. government actions are in no small part responsible for the current situation in Afghanistan. The Bush administration claims to be targeting Osama bin Laden, who it says masterminded the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (even though it has offered no concrete evidence to back up this accusation), and Afghanistan's Taliban government, which is sheltering him. But as the Economist magazine noted soon after September 11, " policies in Afghanistan a decade and more ago helped to create both Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." An examination of this history will reveal the extent to which U.S. foreign policy is based on hypocrisy, realpolitik, and the short-term pursuit of narrow interests.

more at:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanist...

basically, the usa (starting with carter luring the russians into the "afghan trap") has inflicted 25 years of sheer misery on the people of afghanistan. and to you a hero is somebody who volunteers to go continue the atrocities? very strange.

all you want, but the simple fact is none of us have any idea why Pat Tillman did what he did. You can decide that he did what he did out of some base and low emotion, but you don't really know. My question to you is: Does everybody who does something you don't approve of or understand get sterotyped in this fashion?

Your sterotyping Pat Tillman this way says a lot more about you than you could ever have to say about Pat Tillman.

Pest in Peace Pat and thank you for your service and sacrifice.

edit fixed typo