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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:19 PM
Original message
GOP critic threatens impeachment over 'Fast and Furious'
Source: CNN

Washington (CNN) -- A top GOP critic of President Barack Obama's Justice Department cranked up the political heat Thursday on Attorney General Eric Holder, threatening possible impeachment over the handling of Operation Fast and Furious, a severely flawed and now discredited federal gun-sting plan.

"Heads should roll," Wisconsin Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner told Holder during an appearance by the attorney general before the Republican-controlled House Judiciary Committee.

"There is really no responsibility within the Justice Department. The thing is, if we don't get to the bottom of this -- and that requires your assistance on that -- there is only one alternative that Congress has and it is called impeachment."

Sensenbrenner did not make clear if he was referring to the possible impeachment of Holder or other top Justice Department officials.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/08/politics/congress-fast-an...
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Iliyah Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yea, and it start
with the goper party first, ummmmmmmmm, darth chaney, et al.,
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Heads should roll,"
But an illegal war looking for WMD'S and not finding them YET is fine. Or not investigating 9/11, or the 2.3 Trillion that went missing on 09/10/01. Or torture. Yes heads should have rolled.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. What in the hell ...
is he talking about,they should have rolled his big ass out of there years ago.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. another trophy for the invisible talk radio megaphone- while the left brings out the occasional limb
limbaugh racism and stupidity they play catchup to what used to be karl roves political 2x4 and the results of giving a free speech free ride to 1000 coordinated radio stations blasting away all day, distorting and lying and creating whatever distractionary national buzz, along with well-misinformed constituencies, to push whatever they want.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Fast and furious is a real issue, people are dead because of it.
Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695... /

I don't doubt the that the right/repubs have latched on to it, but they're not making it up, either.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. it started with the bush admin and in some angle it was probably justified as a moneymaker for someo
someone/thing in the weapons biz.

our history is full of CIA etc. 'infiltrating' by starting and participating in profitable criminal enterprises, using the excuse that they're going after the big fish.

thanks for the rundown. i wouldn't be surprised if the holder bunch were the ones who decided to use it for regulation purposes and that's one of the things that got the gunrunning republicans hot. they control the general media take on this and in general, although it is a real story, it is being investigated because republicans want to takes shots at obama via holder. that is the only reason this is being investigated.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. There was a large difference though.
"our history is full of CIA etc. 'infiltrating' by starting and participating in profitable criminal enterprises, using the excuse that they're going after the big fish."

Without a doubt.

"it started with the bush admin and in some angle it was probably justified as a moneymaker..."



As I said in another thread, the previous operation was called "wide reciever. Under "wide reciever":


ATF attempted to interdict the guns.

ATF attempted to track the guns.

ATF attempted to follow the suspected traffickers to learn who they were dealing with.

ATF informed and coordinated with Mexican authorities about the traffickers or the guns headed their way.

ATF informed and coordinated with their own agents in Mexico.

Where as under "fast and furious":

ATF made no attempt to interdict the guns.

ATF made no attempt to track the guns.

ATF made no attempt to follow the suspected traffickers to learn who they were dealing with.

ATF actually purchased some guns which they apparently transferred to traffickers.

ATF did not inform Mexican authorities about the traffickers or the guns headed their way.

ATF did not inform their own agents in Mexico about the traffickers or the guns.

ATF ordered their agents in Mexico not to disclose analytical information about the surge in guns coming from the Phoenix area.

ATF did not shut down the operation until BPA Brian Terry was killed.

ATF made no arrests in the operation until after BPA Terrys death.

ATF made no arrests beyond the actual straw purchasers.

Two semi-auto AK-style rifles were recovered at the scene of Agent Terrys murder. Both of those guns had been sold under ATF supervision by a dealer who had expressed concern about making the sales and suggested that someone even a federal officer could be killed if these guns were allowed to enter the black market.

ATF gave strong reassurances that the guns would be interdicted before harm could be done even though they knew that was not true.

ATF encouraged gun dealers to sell large quantities of guns to suspected gun traffickers even though the gun dealers objected and would not have made the sales on their own.

The two cases are apples and oranges, and would be apples and oranges regardless of what administration they were run under.



Speaking of moneymakers, check this out:

U.S.-Backed Programs Supplying the Firepower for Mexicos Soaring Murder Rate

Posted by Bill Conroy - April 14, 2011 at 8:16 pm

Felipe Caldern's Drug War Has Become Hot Market for U.S. Arms Trade


The dollar value of U.S. private-sector weapons shipments to Mexico in fiscal year 2009 exceeded the value of private arms shipments to two other major conflict regions elsewhere in the world, Iraq and Afghanistan, and even outpaced the value of arms shipped to one of the United States staunchest allies, Israel.

U.S. private-sector suppliers shipped a total of $177 million worth of defense articles which includes items like military aircraft, firearms and explosives to Mexico in fiscal 2009, which ended Sept. 30 of that year.

By comparison, over the same period, private arms companies in the U.S. shipped $40 million worth of weapons to Afghanistan; $126 million to Iraq; and $131 million to Israel.

The onslaught of weapons that hit Mexico in fiscal 2009 via these legal commercial exports is multiplied even further by the thousands of additional illegal weapons that the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) allegedly allowed to cross the border into Mexico, unchecked, as part of what appears to be a seriously flawed operation known as Fast and Furious which was launched in October 2009.

This flood of weapons, including high-powered assault rifles and even military-grade munitions, coursing into Mexico in fiscal 2008 and fiscal 2009 via the DCS program and ATFs Fast and Furious seems to have been, in part, the catalyst for a huge spike in narco-related bloodshed in the country.

(MUCH more at the link)

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2...

Anyway, gotta go pull someone out of a ditch in my front yard...have a good one, sir.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. thanks for all that. and in your description of the Fand F it loos pretty unnoficial
and since it did start under bush it looks like one of their things and trying to blame dems for it would be standard operating - to go after holder is political and typical republican.

and they make it impossible for this to get a full impartial investigation.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Think of the Bay of Pigs - which administration do you immediately think of -
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:50 PM by karynnj
yet the plans were all developed and the time table set in the Eisenhower years. Here, it looks like this continued until after Brian Terry was killed in December 2010. That is nearly 2 years into the Obama Presidency. By then, it was there program.

I appreciate the postings that were made explaining it. I think that Obama needs to get Holder and everyone else to completely get out everything there is to get out on this. It seems like a very stupid plan - but it won't be the first very stupid plan. It is unreasonable to think that a new administration would be up and running and completely informed of every program that the career people in any department are doing. Here, they need to get the time line of what they knew when out and respond openly. In all these things, it is usually the cover up that hurts the most.



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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. the bush admin put a lot of political ops all over justice, etc , in their long term plans to polit
politicize and destroy and privatize and de democratize- they just took a big bite out of the PO in that ongoing effort, the shits...
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Not surprised in the least
Also completely aware that a new head has so much on his/her plate that it is near impossible to learn all the details of every ongoing project the career staff is doing. Still - this continued another almost 2 years.
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Great Point
I have been trying to impress the power of the radio medium upon progressives till I turn blue to no avail. They made a half assed effort with Air America and let it die. Low power progressive stations get gestapo like raids from the FCC. Maybe they'll listen to you, give more info on what. They SHOULD be doing in radio and why when you post. Your post is nearly always the same, your point is valid, so share it! :-)
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. thanks for the encouragement, been going blue too. i'm beginning to think there's a way...
i am beginning to think the limbaugh monopoly is very dependent on university sports- i don't know the numbers but 15 of 16 NCAA BB teams last year were limbaugh stations.

how can any of those unis or any other institution of higher ed justify to their communities and students and faculty not breaking those contracts ASAP considering increasing urgency to do something about climate change and the fact that ALL of those limbaugh stations are dedicated to global warming denial all day. not to mention limbaugh's racism and sexism and th efact that all those stations are licensed to operate in the public interest and a totally partisan.
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. you could not be
...closer to the truth. Open up, Brother! Tell the why radio can make the diffference between life and death!!!
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The Jerry problem
May bring this all to light. :-)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. You mean, it's not too late to impeach Bush and Cheney? Wonderful! Go for it.
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unionworks Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Let the indictments
Of Bushco fly!
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COLGATE4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sensenbrenner makes a bag of rocks look positively
brilliant by comparison. Knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, bible-thumping, Fundie pandering son-of-a-bitch.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Pres Obama's DOJ is a disaster. nm
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. These guy totally own hypocrisy.

Seriously you fat asshole, where were you when the Gonzales DoJ was committing major ethics violations and condoning torture?

I wanna tear my hair out every time one of these asshats spouts off indignation.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. "if we don't get to the bottom of this...impeachment" ---Sen. Nonsense will impeach without getting
to the bottom of this, i.e. without knowledge of what happened?

Nonsensenbrenner says you're guilty first and we'll find out the facts later.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. "if we don't get to the bottom of this...impeachment" ---Sen. Nonsense will impeach without getting
to the bottom of this, i.e. without knowledge of what happened?

Nonsensenbrenner says you're guilty first and we'll find out the facts later.
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