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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:07 PM
Original message
Obama agrees with Sebelius on decision to limit morning-after pill
Source: The Hill

President Obama said Thursday that, as the father of two young daughters, he supported his Health secretarys move to limit access to the morning-after pill.

I did not get involved in the process, this was a decision of Kathleen Sebelius, Obama said, referring to the secretary of the Health and Human Services Department.

I will say this. As the father of two daughters, it makes sense to apply some common sense, Obama said.

He said Sebelius could not be confident a 10-year-old or a 11-year-old going to a pharmacy would be able to buy a medication that could have an adverse effect.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/abortion/198147-ob...
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. An adverse effect -- as opposed to a preganancy, you mean?
:eyes:
rocktivity
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Apparently
the effects of pregnancy are acceptable from their point of view. I think they are out of touch with the realities of the year 2011 (soon 2012).
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. But are they in touch with what voters want?
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. They are in touch with dodging an issue that would drive right-wing voters to the polls.
As usual, they do not give the tiniest bit of a fuck about the effect of this latest example of their moral cowardice on left-wing voters.

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Left-wing voters don't have anywhere to go, and Obama knows it
He's aiming for voters in the middle.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Agreed. But it's not 'voters in the middle' who
would have trudged to the polls dragging their knuckles to vote against the Kenyan Muslim Teen-Sex-Approving Socialist had Sebelius decided differently. That's who this decision was made to appease (appease is actually the wrong word - avoid inflaming is more appropriate).



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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
69. Wanna bet?
There ARE more than 2 parties. (NAME REMOVED . . . 5,4,3,2 . . .)
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #69
75. Not going to happen. People are smart enough to remember what happened in 2000
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. But that wasn't your claim, was it?
You stated people have nowhere else to go. I merely pointed out that they do, indeed, have somewhere else to go.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Fine, but they aren't going to go there
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24601 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
102. No place to go - as in there ain't nobody worth voting for, so
we stayed home and didn't go anywhere on election day.

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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
85. I think it was a very wise decision. n/t.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
70. I'm guessing that, if polled in 1840,
most Southerners would vote to uphold Slavery too but that didn't make it right or moral. You're (and Obama's) willingness to repress inaliebale rights guaranteed by the Constitution in exchange for political expediency speaks volumes about both of you.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. So, you are equating children having to get a doctor's prescription with slavery?
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. Is there something about inalieable rights
that you're not understanding?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. When did access to the morning-after pill for kids w/o a prescription become an inalienable right?
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Roe v. Wade. 1973
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. fuck obama. coward. bastard. all the unwanted babies. more change to believe in
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. So he would rather his daughters become pregnant than use a safe drug to prevent it? What a TOOL
I thought he was smart and truth driven.
I was WRONG
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I may be a concern troll but do you really trust the for profit pharmaceutical industry
or government? I haven't had time to look over all the evidence. If you had daughters would you allow them to take this pill?
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. The industry and the government both said this is safe and effective. This is a POLITICAL decision.
If I had a teenage daughter who was raped or allowed herself to engage in unsafe sexual activity;
You can be dammed sure I would allow her to avail herself of every available remedy,
WOULDN'T YOU?
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Safe and effective when used properly. I think the concern here is that
younger teens will not use this medication properly.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Your concern is noted. I believe the concern was that of BO trying like a jilted lover to get the
mushy middle to like him. The GOP will never like any black man.
GET OVER IT BO.
If he doesn't quit chasing the RW nutz who will never succumb to his charms he may actually lose to the clown car that is chasing him.
He (Like the RW) will believe (As his commercial says) That it is somehow MY fault and has nothing to do with HIS ACTIONS.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Tylenol will kill you if used improperly, and it's very easy to use improperly
Yet Tylenol and it's generic equivalents are on every store's shelves, were the kiddies can buy it and eat 'em like Pez. 1 bottle of Tylenol will kill an adult. Aspirin and Ibuprofen require multiple bottles to kill an adult, so it's easy to argue that there are "safer" pain relievers.

Plan B requires an enormous number of packages to be lethal. Probably more than the store will have on the shelf.

So unless Obama's about to ban Tylenol, this argument is false.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
58. Am I supposed to believe
a pharmacist will not have instructions on how to take a pill? Oh, pull-eeze. Every time I pick up a prescription it is buried in instructions, warning tabs attached to the vial and a pharmacist asking if I've taken it before.

This has to be the lamest excuse coming from this administration.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Thank you Vincardog
This decision was SOLELY political and it's the kind of political caving I have come to expect from BHO. What a tool.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I suppose that he or Michelle would take their daughter to a doctor and get an Rx
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Betty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. I suspect most of the young women
who would need this are not 10 and 11, though that can happen. Notice he doesn't way anything about a 16 year old. He uses an extreme example to back up this decision.

And I wonder if it is against the law for under age kids to buy other over the counter meds.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Can anyone here guarantee that a 10 year old understands how to
use the Morning after pill? I can imagine dumb kids thinking that they need to take it after kissing someone!
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. There is no guarantee an 18 year old can understand
instructions any better.

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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The law has to be written to cover the majority of cases, not the extremes.
In this case, the assumption is that most 18 year olds understand that the Morning After pill is not meant for frequent use. It is, after all, simply a very large dose of the same hormones in birth control pills. Birth control pills are given under prescription because some women shouldn't use them because of the risk of stroke.

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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. No but we set certain limits
on behavior in society based on how people of different age groups typically react to situations for their own safety. There are always those on the upslope of a bell curve we can only try to make sure that those in the peak at least are covered.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
86. sometimes some of the arguments on du are a little crazy. it's like
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 03:46 PM by okieinpain
people are looking for anything to raise hell about. kids have to wait till they are 16 to drive, but you want to give a 16 year access to abortion pills on demand. doesn't make sense to me.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. You put it in your mouth and swallow, is that too difficult for people where you come from?
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. How many of em?
how often? What happens if the kid figures that it's not working so she goes to another pharmacy for a second or third dose?


I'm surprised that you managed to make it to adulthood with that kind of attitude. Clearly you aren't much of an endocrinologist.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. No not really
but a kid that's 10, 11 or 12 who's just been assaulted by a "friend" in school might.

Just because you use the 18 year old as an example doesn't mean they're the only ones that can access the drug w/o a prescription Jack.

When you talk about a pediatric population it includes children under the age of 18.

I'm surprised you ever got a second date, maybe you haven't going by the juvenile nature of the replies, but kids can get pregnant at surprisingly young ages.

Apologies for questioning your level of knowledge about endocrinology I didn't realize that middle school "health" is still in the future.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. a kid that's 10, 11 or 12 who's just been assaulted by a "friend" in school should report to the
POLICE and be provided with the Plan B pill anyway.
Why are you so hot to defend this POLITICAL decision by BO?
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. There ya go
we agree... and they would be provided with the pill, there is nothing in the HHS decision banning young girls from getting the pill. The problem being that kids that are assaulted in this way are among the least likely to actually report the assault because they think they'll get in trouble.

In addition kids, especially girls, in the process of undergoing puberty are in greater danger of serious side effects by overdosing on hormones. Hormones generally aren't that dangerous but there is some concern that just a few extra Plan B pills can tip the balance to permanent damage in this case.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. So you are defending BO's POLITICAL decision because of concern that "just a few extra Plan B pills
could hypothetically tip the balance to permanent damage in SOME cases". Reach much?
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I'm sorry
I'm finding myself unable to convey my meaning to you because you don't seem to be able to see any reason other than a political decision.

And now I'm finding myself no longer giving a shit.
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thesquanderer Donating Member (647 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. You could say the same thing about aspirin.
There are tons of OTC medications that a kid could buy and take too much of. Why single this one out, other than politics?
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. True
although you need a pretty large number of aspirin to do any real damage. A young girl, especially at certain stages of puberty, can show some pretty toxic effects to a hormone overdose and the Plan B pill can overdose a girl in this situation with only a couple of doses.
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. You are so out of touch
Kids as low as age seven know about sexual activity.

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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Can you guarantee that a 10 year old understand how to use Tylenol?
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:15 PM by jeff47
I can imagine dumb kids thinking "if two pills make the headache go away in 30 minutes, the whole bottle will make it go away right now".

That, btw, will kill them. Liver transplant in the next 2 days or they go into the ground, and there's not that many livers going around.

On the other hand, taking a unneeded dose of Plan B has minimal side effects. And is definitely not lethal.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. Right! They could choke on the water when they swallow it!
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bummer. I just emailed the White House via Feminist Majority`
and Obama only concedes. But guess what? If Romney or Gingrich make it to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue the restrictions would be even worse.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
71. How?
They're not going to outlaw Roe, despite their rhetoric, because it's too useful as a carrot to lure in the fundamenalist crazies. This is an action that would be IDENTICAL to what a Republican president would do. So exactly, how are we better off?
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Has the drug been tested on pediatric populations?
If not it shouldn't be available to them.

I'm kind of torn on this, I want the drug available but I don't really like the idea of kids self-medicating with stuff that plays with the endocrine system.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. Yes, the drug maker tested it on a group of 11 to 16 year olds.
Btw, what exactly do you think most over-the-counter medications do? A huge portion of them "play with the endocrine system". A huge portion of them play with far more complex systems that have far more lethal consequences when used improperly.
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. Exactly
Once more science and evidence takes a beating.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. Where/how did they find this many test subjects?!
Did they just advertise for sexually active, possible pregnant girls? Taiwan?
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
83. One can test the safety without testing it's birth control efficacy.
In addition, you can give it to a non-sexually-active person and see if it does the same stuff that prevents pregnancy (prevent ovulation, expel uterine lining)
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. This is the old republican/fundamentalist attitude.
We heard the same thing from them about the pill, about condoms. You know. If they know they can avoid pregnancies, they won't have sex. And having sex is the worst thing in the world.

Problem is that now it is coming from our guys.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. You still can't get the pill without a prescription
And for good reason, considering the risks involved.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. You don't know the difference between a prescription requirement & an age restriction? Sheesh!
Plan B instead will remain behind the pharmacy counter, as it is sold today -- available without a prescription only for those 17 and older who show an ID proving their age.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/07/hhs-secretar...

It's like cigarettes, proof of age is required!
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I'm quite aware of the difference
And this is nothing like cigarettes. This is like parental notification laws for an abortion.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. And just what does that have to do with my post?
I didn't say you could. Please show me where that was the point of my post. Maybe you are replying to the wrong post. Surely you wouldn't be just trying to change the subject and avoid the obvious problems with this action.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. ***crickets***
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. . . .
:rofl: Seriously, dude. This is the first time I've seen this graphic. THAT is hysterical.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. Before you ask. Yes I'm a disgusting person.
:evilgrin:
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
79. The establishment sucks, period.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
26. I suspected as much.
I did not get involved in the process, this was a decision of Kathleen Sebelius

Sebelius is hiding behind a pretty weak argument about safety in young teens. "Kids might just take 'em like candy if they can get them OTC, and we have no data on the safety of such abuse of this pill." Well, are 17-year olds taking them like candy? Are 11-year olds likely to have the financial resources to purchase these pills several times per week or more?

I may be assuming a bit about Sebelius's motives here but I strongly suspect she would have reached a different decision in about 11 months' time... after the election.

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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
29. more in depth article by Washington Post
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:23 PM by alp227
"Obama defends administrations refusal to relax Plan B restrictions":

Susan F. Wood of George Washington University, who resigned from the FDA in 2005 because of delays by the George W. Bush administration in relaxing restrictions on Plan B, said she was beyond stunned by the decision.

There is no rationale that can justify HHS reaching in and overturning the FDA on the decision about this safe and effective contraception, Wood said. I never thought Id see this happen again.

Opponents of easier access, meanwhile, hailed the decision, saying relaxing the rules would have exposed girls and women to risks from taking high doses of a potent hormone and misusing the medication; interfered with parents ability to monitor their children; and made it easier for men to prey on vulnerable minors.


Plan B has long been controversial and was the focus of one of the most contentious health disputes during the Bush administration. It works primarily by preventing an egg from being fertilized. But critics focus on the chance that it might prevent a very early embryo from implanting in the womb, an action they consider equivalent to an abortion. As a result, some doctors refuse to write prescriptions for it, some pharmacists refuse to fill requests, and some hospitals refuse to provide it to patients.

Wednesdays decision came as the administration is trying to defuse rising tensions with the Catholic Church over several issues, including a proposed mandate that private insurers provide women with contraceptives for free and a federal denial of an anti-human-trafficking grant to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.


You know what? This is why we REALLY need separation of church and state. If religious leaders really had any strength they would stop whining to the government all the time for help in getting their agenda out.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. "separation of government and state" - methinks you have a typo. (nt)
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. fixed
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. I agree with the decision too. n/t
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Shoe Horn Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
41. "We, the undersigned, pledge to break the law by giving our Morning After Pill..
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:36 PM by Shoe Horn
...to a friend."
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/04/aug04/082604...


And the main search page for the FDA.
http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=Plan+B&x=0&y=0&client=F...


What can I say? I trust the scientists at the FDA. Obama should, too.
But, hopefully they'll write another law??
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
46. Ugh.
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
49. I believe this could be abused by some minors...
In the mid-1970's my best friend in highschool got pregnant 3 times by the same boyfriend before she turned 18. She aborted them all. The babies nor the procedures meant nothing to her. They were barely a blip on her radar. Her parents never knew about any of them. It was a classic case of using abortion as birth control.

Today, teens are having sex at even younger ages. They are having all kinds of sex, group sex, oral sex, its nothing to them and far more condoned by their peers. For many of them, I suspect that knowing this pill was available would only encourage more promiscuity. Parental notification for minors is not a bad thing. Intervention by a parent may be just was is needed for these girls to prevent disease or stop an abusive relationship.

Regardless, I'm sure minors would still be able to find some way around the parental notification problem.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. But then sometimes it's the parent that's responsible for the pregnancy in the first place..
What then?

:shrug:
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. That's another problem altogether.
I would hope, that depending on the girl's age, that someone in the process of prescribing or approving the pill for her would red flag and report to child protective services, and in that case, requiring the parental notification still wouldn't be a bad thing.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Two words..
Jerry Sandusky..

How many kids did he rape before anyone said anything?
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
101. Nothing says that a parent has to buy it for them
I oppose parent notification laws. But, I think that it would be appropriate for a much younger girl to discuss the situation with an adult- or young adult preferably female. If not mother- aunt, sibling, friend, etc who has more experience.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
52. I cannot take an adult dosage of Tylenol
because I am only 100 lbs. I take "children's" dosage of OTC meds. It took me many years, and adverse reactions, to learn this. Hell, I have had DOCTORS over medicate me as an adult. It's your SIZE not your AGE that determines the dosage. Don't have a medical degree but life experience has taught me that.

While I don't like the religious undercurrents of objections to Plan B, I can understand the need for SOME oversight on this. I also had problems taking the pill decades ago. Trial and Error. I couldn't the combination pill (bleeding) because of the estrogen. I took the mini pill. NOBODY can know THAT, not even doctors, until you have a reaction to it. I would hope a licensed pharmacist, non-religious one, would be the best person to dispense these to VERY YOUNG girls. I did take the pill when I was 10 for amenorrhea and had a bad reaction to it, but again, even a doctor cannot know this beforehand. SOME women WILL have reactions, but that doesn't mean ALL women will and that we should go overboard because of the few. Greater good applies.
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
55. Common sense prevails...
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. you need to meet some teens who are pregnant with no skills, no hs diplomas
and you'll see how much "common sense" it makes to keep this pill off the counter.

Take a trip to your inner city low income areas where there is high unemployment, high crime, high drug use. Get back to me after you visit awhile and let me know how much "common sense" it is to ensure low skill girls ages 12-16, from low income families, will remain pregnant.
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I have yet to hear anyone make a logical argument for governments to sweep away parental rights
and assume control for making the decisions that affect minor children.

November 29, 1937, Wadenberg, Germany - A court has taken parents away from their children because they refused to teach them Nazi ideology...The court accused them of creating an environment where the children would grow up 'enemies of the state.' The children were delivered into the state's care.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Welcome to DU..
Most people wait a bit longer before they go full metal Godwin on a thread about birth control.

Auf weidersehen..

:hi:
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #59
67. bertriebene auf den Punkt zu machen
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. Ja, genau.
;)

:hi:
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. parental rights I'm for but some parents don't act responsibly--cases in point:
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 09:28 PM by wordpix
I teach teens in an area of high unemployment, poverty, and low skills in the inner city. I've got kids I care about whose parents are drunks, they smoke crack in front of the kids, they take the kids' money and don't give the kids a bed or a mattress, they don't care if their 12 y.o. daughter skips school and has a line of boys out the door to see her, they ridicule their kids who are trying to stay in school and learn, the fathers beat the mothers, one parent tried to commit suicide in the home and the boy had to cut him down from the rope, one boy resorts to fighting (like cockfighting, only with young men) to make money to eat, some truants have ZERO high school credits at age 18, and there are LOTS of girls walking around pregnant with no skills, no boyfriend, no diploma, as young as 12 and 13...ALL these are true stories.

You're all for parental rights but some of these parents have poor decision-making abilities that are worse than their kids'. If Plan B is safe, put it on the shelf.
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #60
65. "If Plan B is safe, put it on the shelf."
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 08:35 AM by Bogart
I agree--for women (>18), but not for children (<18).

Also...in the scenario you described above, would it not be necessary for this hypothetical child to engage in some sort of inappropriate behavior in order ensure that Plan B is a profitable endeavor for Teva Pharmaceuticals?

Finally, the fact that some parents behave in an irresponsible manner is not a valid justification for abridging the rights of all.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
94. OK, YOU pay for the kids born to irresponsible teenage girls living with irresponsible parents
Let me guess----you don't want to shell out those billion$ to raise the kids properly and give them what they need when their parents can't or won't? Tough--- you'll have a lifetime of shelling out b/c often these poor children are often unproductive and low-skilled by the end of high school, and/or end up in jail. Not all, but many.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. hyperbole, much? We're talking about a safe drug & you bring up Nazi Germany?
:crazy: geesh, you're not looking smart with that analogy
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. Sometimes it is necessary to exaggerate to make a point.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
93. however, in this case it makes your argument look ridiculous
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
88. Parent's rights only extend as far as it doesn't endanger their child's health and welfare....
the example you provided is an example of overreach, which is NOT what this thread is about.
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Indeed, I exaggerated. However, the state and Teva Pharmaceuticals do not have the right
to strip responsible parents of their rights, simply because a small segment of the population is irresponsible.

That IS what this issue is about.
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. What rights are those, the right to deny their child health care? The right to violate their...
child's right to privacy? Really, tell me what rights you are talking about here.
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. As minors, by law, children do not have the autonomy, or the right
to make decisions for themselves in any known jurisdiction on this planet. While it may not be clear to you, most rational people understand that children do not have the intelligence, experience, or emotional development necessary to make their own choices, independent of their parents.

The "caretaker" view of children's rights was articulated by John Locke. According to Locke, all humans are "born infants, weak and helpless, without knowledge or understanding." Therefore, parents were "by the law of Nature, under an obligation to preserve, nourish, and educate the children they had begotten."

Thus, children have what are known as "dependency rights" rights--as dependents, they will be provided with what is required to ensure that they grow and develop into healthy and functioning adults. According to most state laws, upon reaching the age of 18, children become, and are endowed with the rights of adults.

I am very troubled by the fact that so many people hold statist views that you espouse...very troubled.



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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Statist, what are you, a dumbass Libertarian?
See its that whole "developed into healthy and functioning adults" issue. Put simply, parents may fail in this responsibility, and its our job as a society to ensure that children are protected, even from their own parents.
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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #92
97. I agree with your premise that a responsible society must have the means to protect children
from irresponsible parents. However, a wise policy should focus on the irresponsible behavior of the few, rather than casting a net of control over everyone.

If protecting the rights of parents from the transgressions of pharmaceutical companies and states is something that you classify as "libertarian," so be it.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. "a wise policy should focus on the irresponsible behavior of the few"
The child may be carrying the child of her father.

And that's your "few".
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Humanist_Activist Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. How is it supposed to focus on the few, we aren't psychic...
you write laws to cover everyone by default so that those few irresponsible ones would be the ones affected the most. For example, its against the law to murder people for everybody, but only those who actually commit murder would face this law and the consequences later. You can't have laws that "focus on the few", that's simply impossible.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. "children do not have the intelligence, experience..." & therefore they must bear children?
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 08:39 PM by wordpix
Take your pick: the unintelligent, inexperienced child gets pregnant as an 11-16 y.o. If the parent does not know/do anything about it/is a religious fanatic, the child will have to bear the child and become a young mother, most probably unemployed and on welfare due to a lack of skills and lack of money for child care.

Or, the newly pregnant girl is free to get Plan B, a safe, FDA approved drug, off the shelf.

I know what my preference is. And having taught in a school where "surprise" pregnancies are common, I can only tell you that most of the girls I know who get pregnant and have babies are low-skilled kids without a boyfriend, hs diploma, or prospects. Their babies are doomed from the start. Yes, there are exceptions---I know one girl living with her grandparents and they helped her out, along with her ex-boyfriend and his family. But most of these girls will continue to have major problems as young mothers, and their babies will be raised in poverty and ignorance.

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Bogart Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. "Or, the newly pregnant girl is free to get Plan B, a safe, FDA approved drug, off the shelf."
In all likelihood, "the newly pregnant girl" will not have the means to acquire Plan B. Let me guess: The state will pay for it--right? And let me venture another guess: Teva Pharmaceuticals' campaign $$$ is the ultimate driving force behind all of this.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. you're concerned with the cost of an over the counter drug but not of supporting a child for 18 yrs?
Edited on Sun Dec-11-11 04:15 PM by wordpix
"The state will pay for it "---I'd rather the state pay for that than 18 yrs. of a child brought up by a teenage mother with no skills living in poverty.

No doubt there's a pharma corp. behind this but that doesn't mean Plan B should not be available to 12-16 y.o's who stupidly get pregnant.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. . . .
:cry: :hug: Your input is vitally important on this topic.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
82. God-fucking-dammit!!! When will this guy get a clue...
I am sooooooooooooo done with this bullshit kow-towing to the religious-right fundie asswipes that won't vote for him anyway "nuanced" ninth-level Ninja-Chess bullshit... :grr:

Supported the banks, big oil, big pharma, fucked the poor in the NE with their heating oil assistance, fucked the environment too many times to mention, supports nukes and 'clean coal' (whatever the fuck that is), doesn't have the balls to tax the rich back into the stone age, and now he decides to side with this decision...

Un-fucking-believable...

Hope and change? My arse, I've got a bridge to sell ya...
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
87. Is he entering the repuke primary?!
He said Sebelius could not be confident a 10-year-old or a 11-year-old going to a pharmacy would be able to buy a medication that could have an adverse effect.

What in Hell would a 10- or 11-year-old be doing buying Plan B?! :dunce:
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
96. Awful. This will create more unintended pregnancy and nothing more.
And to rationalize it as an action motivated by "common sense," as opposed to pathetic attempts to score bonus points with conservatives and the anti-choice is sad. Really, really sad.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
104. As a dude, the prez should
just STFU. Michelle might feel differently.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. unfortunately, it's the men in positions of power - just look at the presidents, Congress
CEO's, etc. Not many women there and that's the problem.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Did you know that OWS
wants to have a 'Congressional Meeting' this summer. They want a male AND FEMALE from each Congressional District. Isn't that cool?

The Political World desperately needs women. DESPERATELY. But try to convince da boyz.

I'm writing 51 Reps/Senators in Ohio who are ready to pass HB 125....the most hideous law in the nation against CHOICE. Rape and Incest...no reason for an abortion. It's sickening.

I ran out of stamps...I'll finish up tomorrow. 32 more to do. I'm using quite colorful language and illustrations w/ stickers!!!!

I feel hope w/ OWS...they stopped the West Coast Ports today....good for them! Like we need more crap from China..I don't buy it unless I absolutely have to.

Thank you for your response.
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