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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:21 PM
Original message
85-year-old says she was strip searched at JFK
Source: Associated Press

85-year-old says she was strip searched at JFK
By COLLEEN LONG
(December 3rd, 2011 @ 1:14pm)
Associated Press

NEW YORK (AP) - An 85-year-old New York grandmother said Saturday she was injured and humiliated when she was strip searched at an airport after she asked to be patted down instead of going through a body scanner.

Lenore Zimmerman said she was taken to a private room and made to take off her pants and other clothes after she asked to forgo the screening because she worried it would interfere with her defibrillator. She missed her flight and had to take one two-and-a-half hours later, she said.

"I'm hunched over. I'm in a wheelchair. I weigh under 110 pounds," she said from her winter home at seniors community in Coconut Creek, Fla.

She added, "Do I look like a terrorist? This was the worst experience."



Read more: http://www.620ktar.com/509/1475314/85yearold-says-she-w...
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. How have we fallen into this weird universe. It seems like
insanity to think that an 85 yr old women whose id and history could be easily checked would be put through this. It is search without probable cause. It is nonsense.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Yes
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. How? Fear. People are so afraid of everything nowadays.
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 01:16 PM by krabigirl
The worst abuses are seen as "okay" because people actually think they are kept safe by these things happening. It's insane.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. That was criminal behavior on the part of the TSA. Period. n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Unless the story is BS
The TSA version is quite different from what she is saying.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. ... Transportation Security Administration said in a statement Saturday that no strip search was
conducted.

"While we regret that the passenger feels she had an unpleasant screening experience, TSA does not include strip searches as part of our security protocols and one was not conducted in this case," the statement read ...

Dec 3, 6:26 PM EST
85-year-old says she was strip searched at JFK
By COLLEEN LONG
Associated Press
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ELDERLY_WOMAN...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Ahhh...so she was playing the "Granny card" because Sonny didn't get her to the
airport on time! I think the son was a bit of a shit, dumping her there--he should have seen her to her gate.

And she shouldn't have made up stories about being strip-searched. She's done a disservice by engaging in hyperbole; now other, valid reports will be discounted because assumptions will be made that they were exaggerating as well.

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flpab Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #56
75. Granny card right, son is an arse
He could have gone with her with a pass from the gate agent but then he would have had to park and pay for his car....now she is going to sue.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Seriously - it wasn't the fault of TSA that she missed the flight -
"Zimmerman was dropped off by her son at Kennedy Airport for a 1 p.m. flight Tuesday to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., on JetBlue, she said. She arrived to the ticket counter around 12:20 p.m. and headed for security in a wheelchair, her small, metal walker in her lap."

TSA says the entire exam took 11 minutes. If so, this woman's story of a strip search is totally bogus!

We always get to our small regional airport at least an hour ahead of time for a domestic flight, two hours if we will be transferring to an international flight! Not to mention - typically boarding times are about 20-30 minutes ahead of flight times!
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Marnie Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. The point is that even a pat down of an 85 year old is absurd.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
43. Do you support profiling passengers based on age?
Only pat down those who fit a certain age profile?
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flpab Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
76. wheels up time is not boarding time people
People look at their ticket and it says 1:00 pm flight and they think the plane should still be there at 12:59...I don't feel sorry for people anymore
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. I thought the headline said "85 year old says she was stripped searched by JFK"
:hangover:

I think I need to go give my eyes a rest.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. The age is about right--if that was Chapter One of her memoirs! nt
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. Ow.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. lol
I'm sure she'd appreciate the joke. Might even cheer her up.
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BlueToTheBone Donating Member (196 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Once I was injured and needed a wheelchair to go throught
the airport. They seem to delight in putting invalids and old people through hell. The took the wig off an old woman who apparently had chemo and was bald. It was horrifying.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Extraordinarily disturbing that the administration would allow such blatant violations of
human dignity and universal human rights. :patriot:
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
85. see...
this is what really gets me about obama. why why why is he allowing this (among other things)?? he's like this smiling good guy who's doing bad things!
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JJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Don't complain
The Senators are working on indefinite military detention for all you complainers.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. LOL
:spray:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. If she had been "profiled" this never would have happened to her.
However, that's a Third Rail, right there, as "profiling" is regarded as "discrimination."

They do it at Ben Gurion all the time. They watch people's behavior, AND they take into consideration age, ethnicity, gender, purpose of travel, background, associates....every possible bit of info they can data-mine about a person.

That said, we as a nation oppose profiling. This kind of stuff will, unfortunately, continue to happen. People who expect it to stop are dreaming. It's embedded in the culture now, like seatbelts and "No Smoking in restaurants"--we're just not going back. If we're lucky, they'll find a way to make it less human-intensive, defibrillator-friendly, and not apparently invasive.

No shooting the messenger. This is an unfortunate truth.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. She WAS profiled. Asking not to go through the scanner put her in a suspicious category..
Profiling is not illegal. Doing so on the basis of protected categories, like age and national origin should be illegal.

That is the fortunate truth.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. What I am saying, though, is that if she had been profiled in the ILLEGAL fashion,
she wouldn't have had any trouble.

I am not necessarily advocating for profiling, so please don't start getting on my case--but let's be honest, here.

On the basis of her age, her gender, her infirmity, her travel, work and marital history, even her ethnicity, the odds are very, very good that she is not a terrorist.

Of course, you're not allowed to consider many of those 'protected' things when profiling a person. However, if you're interviewing her and doing an advanced screening, much of that information is available to the questioner.

If she were well and truly "profiled"--in the Israeli sense of the word--she would have whipped through that checkpoint like greased lightning.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
70. Sorry, what you call being "honest here," I call several other things, none of which are positive.
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 06:31 PM by No Elephants
And I find it downright gobsmacking that you assume that someone who rejects the usefulness of illegal profiling does so only because they are not being honest.

Being honest here, someone who does not want to go through a scanner has to be searched some other way, period, regardless of age or anything else. And letting her through like greased lightning only because of illegal profiling would have been thinking very narrowly, as well as dangerously.

You are also mistaken about the odds. First, not all terrorists are Muslim extremists. Second, not all Muslim extremists are Arabs. Some are even white (or "white looking"), American born women of a "certain age." Others are Filipino, Indonesian, Hawaiian, French, British, etc.

If I wanted to smuggle something aboard any means of transportation, I WOULD choose a person least likely to fit an illegal kind of profile. Doing otherwise would be the height of foolish arrogance on my part.

I might even choose someone, say, like me. And I may not be alone in that view because someone did approach me, albeit not in an airport, but in a bus station.

Yes, there is the lone nutter. But, even assuming that all lone nutter terrorists are Muslim, not all of them can be identified as such via illegal profliling.

Indeed Richard Colvin Reid did fit any illegal terrorist profile, unless English mums and Jamaican dads of African descent add up to an Islamic jihadist profile in someone's twisted mind.

Ditto Jose Padilla, a American born man, who converted to Islam. Or maybe anyone who has ever been in prison and/or a temple anywhere in the world should be profiled, too?

Oops. does having Arab countries on your passport count? If so, I would have been guilty of traveling to some of them at several points in my life.

Illegal profiling is like leaving the barn door wide open while struggling to be meticulous about putting misquito netting on the window.

Sorry, but a propensity to think in terms of illegal profiling is far likelier to get people killed than thinking in terms of acts and omissions, what is said and unsaid, etc.

Oh, and speaking of being honest, yes, you have been nothing but positive about illegal profiling so far. If you don't want to call it sdvocating, though, fine.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. I am gobsmacked myself, because you spent all that effort yelling at me
and excoriating me for VIEWS I DO NOT HOLD.

Jesus. Can no one read?

I guess you missed this part of my post

....am not necessarily advocating for profiling, so please don't start getting on my case...



Not necessariy advocating. Don't start getting on my case.

I also think you can't read a sentence for context. I did not suggest "hat someone who rejects the usefulness of illegal profiling does so only because they are not being honest."

Is English your second language? You completely MISrepresented what I actually said about illegal profiling. The "honesty" is not part of the equation. Substitute the phrase "let's be truthful" for "let's be honest" and try reading it again.

When I talk about "illegal" profiling, I am talking about the profiling that routinely occurs in other countries. Don't start yelling at me for talking about what actually is happening, as though I am a champion of these practices for discussing them.

Your last sentence is completely untrue. Apparently you are unable to have a discussion about a topic without playing Junior Debate Team. When you play the "For" or "Against" game, you lose all the nuance in a conversation.

So....whatever. This was a complete waste of time.

:eyes:
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. Lol, exerting constitutional rights now makes one suspicious. Awesome. Nt
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
52. IMO we should all put up with it rather than presume
men of darker tone skin colors are the only culprits possible.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. Oh, profiling--the illegal kind that they use in Israel and elsewhere--goes way beyond that.
That blonde haired, blue eyed twenty year old male with the Abercrombie and Fitch wardrobe and tassled loafers is just as much, if not more, of a suspect, if, say, he took classes in Arabic in college and has a ticket to Yemen.

That ginger haired girl on her way to Oman to meet her boyfriend's parents is fair game, too.

That mild-mannered Wally Cox type guy, enroute to ANYWHERE, would get "the treatment" if a prescreening revealed that he wrote messages of support for some of the more nefarious terra leaders on his Facebook.

Age and ethnicity are two "bozo no nos" with us, but they are just two of MANY factors that are used in profiling in other locations.

Data mining--it's coming into its own and they're using it.

Please don't yell at me because I point this out (I am not saying you would--that is just a generic pre-emptive strike on my part because I often get accused of "supporting" positions because I happen to impart information). I'm not advocating, I am simply the messenger.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Where does this info come from?
But for that, they need to know the individual.

Anyone with a ticket to Yemen is, I bet, going to get a lot of scrutiny. But better to not let the blondie off just because he's a blonde.

I like that the US treats everyone equally, even if it is very unlikely an 85 year old lady will be a terrorist, no one is making an age specific decision on that. Israel isn't like the US. Well I would not want to live in a place like Israel. It is a good thing that the US would go to the trouble of treating everyone getting on a plane the same way, not just singling out the brown skinned people as looking thereby more "suspicious."
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. You mean the datamining?
Facebook, twitter, "the internet," the FBI, travel records...

If you have any "Federal" presence, they can get info on you if there are records available.

If there's a newspaper article that talks about you attending an Eid festival with a bunch of rather vocal Islamic Studies professors at Bumstead University, well, they could go after you based on that association.

This is why they like to know who's flying well ahead of time. They don't just make up a list--they're checking it twice. Buy your ticket on the day you fly, and you're almost guaranteed a little extra attention.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
82. racial profiling is discrimination and we shouldn't take tips from countries
that dont guarantee the same constitutional rights to all its citizens, regardless of religion/race/ethnicity etc
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SoapBox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. I've seen shocking stuff...
I've been a Flight Attendant for about 28 years.

Before 911...after 911...I've seen amazingly stupid stuff out of the TSA.

This story would not surprise me. And, the statement issued by the TSA...well, we've seen
and heard the canned response to cover up incidents, many, many times before.
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flpab Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
34. to flight attendant
12:20 drop off for a 1:00 pm wheels up flight at JFK? Get real, she missed her flight and blamed tsa so she would not have to pay re booking fees. Ask a ticket agent about all the scams these people use.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. It sounds like the govt is trying to kill the airline industry. nt
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. TSA and their corporate backers could really give a shit.
As long as security is such a lucrative business, the schemers and greedy bastards who make all this happen will continue to make life miserable for us as a public.

Seriously, not until we communicate in a substantial way that enough is enough, this kind of crap will just continue.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. Pathetic ...like scared little rats ...fear the terrorist ....fuck that fear shit! ...
I fear our fucking cops more than terrorists. I can call the cops on a criminal but who do you call when the cops fuck you up?
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Dawson Leery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. +1
:thumbsup:
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
58. +1, completely agree.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. So, how many terrorist plots have been interrupted by TSA?
I think we need that information in order to do a cost-benefits analysis.

In terms of physiological capacity a wheel-chair bound 83 year old could be wired with a bomb. So could any of us. There can never be 'enough' done to protect safety.

It is the inability to tolerate unknown risk that leads to these indignities. Make the risk overt and let us decide on what to do.




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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
63. Not plots as such, but
Our officers found 23 loaded firearms in carry-on baggage since last Friday. (Not counting the unloaded ones we found). Heres a rundown of the loaded weapons we kept off of airplanes this week:
11/27/2011: TSA Officer at ONT detects a loaded .40 pistol with a round in the chamber.
11/28/2011: TSA Officer at IAH detects a loaded .380 pistol with a round in the chamber.
11/28/2011: TSA Officer at EWR detects a loaded pistol.
11/28/2011: TSA Officer at RIC detects a loaded .38 pistol.
11/28/2011: TSA Officer at GPT detects a loaded .22 pistol.
11/29/2011: TSA Officer at ABI detects a loaded .380 pistol with a round in the chamber.
11/29/2011: TSA Officer at BNA detects a loaded .38 pistol with a round in the chamber.
11/29/2011: TSA Officer at TPA detects a loaded .22 pistol.
11/29/2011: TSA Officer at CRP detects a loaded .40 pistol.
11/29/2011: TSA Officer at SAT detects a loaded .380 pistol.
11/29/2011: TSA Officer at DFW detects a loaded .40 pistol.
11/30/2011: TSA Officer at GSP detects a loaded .38 pistol.
11/30/2011: TSA Officer at MCI detects a loaded .38 pistol with a round in the chamber.
11/30/2011: TSA Officer at AUS detects a loaded .38 pistol.
11/30/2011: TSA Officer at IAH detects a loaded .38 pistol.
11/30/2011: TSA Officer at ATL detects a loaded .38 pistol.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at PWM detects a loaded 9mm pistol.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at CMH detects a loaded .380 pistol with a round in the chamber.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at CRW detects a loaded .380 pistol with a round in the chamber.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at STL detects a loaded .380 pistol with a round in the chamber.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at ACT detects a loaded pistol.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at AUS detects a loaded .380 pistol.
12/1/2011: TSA Officer at DFW detects a loaded .380 pistol with a round in the chamber.

http://blog.tsa.gov/
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Remarkably consistent numbers
so 4 per day give or take one and a fraction out of how many thousand flights?

Any idea of how many of those were the TSA testing its workers?


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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. it's texas
4 a day is what you would expect just from a certain number of good old boys in a hurry have been recently on a hunting trip or something (by car) and screwed up their packing, didn't check correctly when they packed for the airport

even harry connick jr. once did this (had a gun in his carry-on, i think it might have been at new orleans airport)

most of these events are forgetfulness not evil-doing, but of course it's well that ALL guns are kept off the flight

it does not mean that 4 potential terror events a day are prevented in texas, it mostly means that people being human screw up far more often than we would think

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #67
78. Yes, but it's remarkably consistent for 'rare' events
out of 1.9 million US passengers per day. That these events occurred everyday for that week with such little variation is rather surprising to me. Not saying that it couldn't happen that way.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. It makes perfect sense actually. If you have say, 20 guns among
1.9 million passengers, then that's 1 per 10,000 - so while it happens every day, the odds that any one passenger is carrying are low. If, as noted above, most guns are carried by accident, it would make sense that it's pretty consistent. That's how statistics works.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think America has gone into Paranoid Schizophrenia
when that happens it means a society is dying

dogs are cheaper and more effective and they know it
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
31.  lovuian
lovuian

In some cases I think US of today, is worse than the old USSR of old, At least in the USSR, they know they was under surveillance, and they also know, that they had a security system who kept them under surveillance under "state security"..

The same was the case in the East European nations between 1945 and 1989/91 where the also had their parts of security, who was pretty strict in large parts of the history after 1945... But they did know it, and even tho they had to accepted it, they had many inventive ways to go true the system, and many even managed to get around the systems... Or to leave for West-Europe over, under, and between the wall who divided Europe for more than 40 year... I remember, in the 1980s, when we was wisting Bulgaria at holyday mostly (I believe it was in the late 1980s, between 1986 and 1991) who strict it was to came in, a lot of guards (with weapon), strict pass control, and all the trimmings of the old East block. But even there, it was not as special as in the US for the last couple of years.. But we all know it, and accepted it as part of been able to have a Holiday. As Bulgaria was not exactly a democracy yet.. But I belive the old east block would be envy by how mutch US have to offer, when it came to survilance this days.. Even Honecer whould have something to say about US border control this days... In Envy for the most part..

I'm not sure if US are going into Paranoid Schizophrenia, even that US after 11 sept 2001 have acted in ways I doubt was believable just a couple of years before - when US was seen as one of the more easy country to fly in, specially if you had the paper in order... Last time I was in US, and it is a long time since, in 1992-93, it was a breeze to get true at Miami Int (KMIA) I was surprised how easy it was, just a custom officials, who looked at my passport, that everything was in order, and then Welcome to the US... And in i went.. Today I'm not sure if I even want to visit your amazing country - not because most of th 300 mill population, but mostly because of the hassle at the border... I can visit many other nations, fare more easily than US, and not even have the same hassle at the border to boot... I doubt even Syria or Iran have the same paranoia when it came to visitors this days... (And that say a lot as they do have their issues with the rest of the world this days)

Diclotican
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. lovuian
lovuian

In some cases I think US of today, is worse than the old USSR of old, At least in the USSR, they know they was under surveillance, and they also know, that they had a security system who kept them under surveillance under "state security"..

The same was the case in the East European nations between 1945 and 1989/91 where the also had their parts of security, who was pretty strict in large parts of the history after 1945... But they did know it, and even tho they had to accepted it, they had many inventive ways to go true the system, and many even managed to get around the systems... Or to leave for West-Europe over, under, and between the wall who divided Europe for more than 40 year... I remember, in the 1980s, when we was wisting Bulgaria at holyday mostly (I believe it was in the late 1980s, between 1986 and 1991) who strict it was to came in, a lot of guards (with weapon), strict pass control, and all the trimmings of the old East block. But even there, it was not as special as in the US for the last couple of years.. But we all know it, and accepted it as part of been able to have a Holiday. As Bulgaria was not exactly a democracy yet.. But I belive the old east block would be envy by how mutch US have to offer, when it came to survilance this days.. Even Honecer whould have something to say about US border control this days... In Envy for the most part..

I'm not sure if US are going into Paranoid Schizophrenia, even that US after 11 sept 2001 have acted in ways I doubt was believable just a couple of years before - when US was seen as one of the more easy country to fly in, specially if you had the paper in order... Last time I was in US, and it is a long time since, in 1992-93, it was a breeze to get true at Miami Int (KMIA) I was surprised how easy it was, just a custom officials, who looked at my passport, that everything was in order, and then Welcome to the US... And in i went.. Today I'm not sure if I even want to visit your amazing country - not because most of th 300 mill population, but mostly because of the hassle at the border... I can visit many other nations, fare more easily than US, and not even have the same hassle at the border to boot... I doubt even Syria or Iran have the same paranoia when it came to visitors this days... (And that say a lot as they do have their issues with the rest of the world this days)

Diclotican
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
68. diclotican, come visit, don't let exaggerations stop you!
if you are a financially secure retired or employed person from norway, you are not going to have any hassle at the border


customs is worried about people coming to work illegally (just as norway does not want americans to come to work illegally) but customs is not the agency accused in this article

you would have little or no contact w. TSA (the agency charged w. stopping terrorists) flying from norway to usa, you would be screened at your home airport or maybe at AMS if you connect at schipol (i don't know what flights go in/out oslo)

i would love to visit norway but my fears are of a different nature, as a humble american, i fear that i could never afford it

i bet you are seeing some lovely northern lights this time of year

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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. pitohui
pitohui

True, US is one of the country's I have on my list "to do" before I die.. At the moment I'm not exactly in the position to travel to the US, but hopefully I'm able to save up some money in a couple of years, and be able to visit your amazing country and at least look at some of the marvels US are so rightfully known for... US is absolutely a country worth visit.

And yes, long before I'm visiting your country, I would have been "screened" both with the visa thing, and at the home airport "who are Gardermoen".. And them maybe even in another airport on the way over, it all depend of which airport I'm flying from to US I guess.. It goes direct link from Gardermoen every summer, so I guess that will be the not a lot of hassle at least..

Well, our nature I think you will love to visit, but we are one of the more expensive country's to visit, and the US currency is not what it one was worth.. I think it is at 5.50 for each Dollar at the moment.. When i started to look at US currency a decade ago, it was almost 8.0 NKR for each dollar.. So either have the US dollar lost a lot of value, or the Norwegian currency got a lot stronger... I'm not sure ;) But even with the less value of the US currency I belive you can get a decent vacation here in Norway too. And most of us, know at least english good, with, or withouth an accent.. The younger generations tend to be better in english than I am ;) (yeah Im starting to be old :P )

But, even with all the exaggerations it is a scary thing to se, and I have the misfortune of having a bullsize on my, who says "border agents, please take him in for further check".. Even tho I never have any thing other than maybe a bottle of whine to much in my luggage ore some rather stinky socks.).. At one time when I arrived home I almost got the full 9 yard at the border, as the custom officials was rather intrusive (and that was Long before sept 11 2001) but thankfully it was hot she who had the upper hand, as the senior officer understood that I was not an drug currier from Sweden :P Oh, well, I got home in one piece then in the end, without the "bend over please" But it was not exactly funny to be in a tight spot. And it sounds like TSA is far worse than our own border agents in doing uncomfortable things with wisitors... It is sad, that many who might have visit your country, choose to visit other nations, rather than go true the TSA proses.. I can understand why US wanted to be more secure after sept 11, no problem to understand it at all..But I fear that the TSA was going little over board in their willingness to keep illegals out of the country - or people who wanted to to your harm.. Even my old, little gray heared foster mother who never had so much as a driving ticket to show for, was almost denied aces to US a couple of years ago - as TSA was not able to "read" her passport, they doesn't had the right tool for reading this new passport they demanded all to have, if they wanted to visit US. The whole group she was in, was detained in a room for more than 4 hours, before they, without as much as a apology was granted access to the US.. She was, without a say, rather annoyed been kept in a small rom for more than 4 hours, because TSA doesn't had the right tool to read the passports.. And, even tho some of the histories about TSA is been overtelling to make a statement, it is to many stories about outright misuse of the TSA power to just say "it dosent matter": When the agents ar frisking a 5 year child, who are absolutely NOT comfortable been tutched from a forreigher (it was a big case a year ago around thanksgiving/cristmas) then they might be little to strict in their "understanding"..Common sense tell that a 5 year old child are not a danger to the airport, or to the airliners as a whole, they are for the most part pottytrained and able to go to the bathroom on their own when needed. And for the most part act properly when not tired or irritated, or both. Even the bulgarian secret police was not frisking us, when we was wisiting their country in 1986, even tho they had all the tools to do so, and I was maybe 10 when we first wisited the "other side of the iron curtain" first time!.

Oh, well, time will show I guess ;)..

Diclotican
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
83. Dioclotcan you get it
did you ever see the movie 2001

the computer Hal the computer kills most of the astronauts because he becomes paranoid

Trust is an important component in a society and individuals psyche

and right now Trust has been broken


so now Paranoia reigns breeding more Paranoia

a country can't live with paranoia...it will disintegrate




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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
44. I think Paranoid Schizophrenics are more sane
Honestly - people who are mentally ill can be more thoughtful and less likely to believe in the bullshit that other people create.

There is something about fear combined with money, power and the herd mentality (which allows people to carry out this crap) that is esp. insidious. It needs its own word.
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SavWriter Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. Which is why I don't fly.
I'll drive. It takes longer, costs about the same factoring in food, lodging, and gasoline. Yet, I am not harassed, for my own safety. In the end, a clean wash in my book.

We should have followed through with our campaign promises to get rid of the PATRIOT ACT. The we should have followed up by abolishing the TSA instead of embracing them as vital to the security of the nation. PFUI. The ones I've seen couldn't secure the latch on a lunch box.
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. TSA victims unite! nt
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. How believable is this story?
What evidence is there that she is telling the truth and the TSA rep is lying?
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. At some point, the vast number of people who keep complaining
of incidents such as this has to add up to evidence in and of itself that there is a very serious problem.


The TSA, at this point, basically expects us to believe that all of these people imagined (hallucinated) incidents that never happened and then insisted on going to the media or internet to complain about these hallucinations.

Is it believable that hundreds of people are suddenly hallucinating events and having the compulsive desire to publicize those hallucinations?

If so, why isn't it happening to anyone other than the TSA?


We should recognize that the TSA has the bureaucratic authority to prevent proof from being available in individual situations, so the lack of such proof doesn't mean that an incident didn't actually happen, but the fact that hundreds of people have individually, separately come forward and said that these incidents happened when they had no incentive to lie has to add up to evidence at some point against the TSA.

It has certainly been shown often enough that people with arbitrary authority tend to abuse it, and that the TSA, in particular, seems to tolerate and cover up abuses when they occur.





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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. That is true
And I am no fan of what I have read about the TSA conducting ridiculous and invasive searches of people for no particular reason.

All I am saying is that in this particular case there seem to be some elements of this woman's story that are directly contradicted by what the TSA official is saying.

It is possible that the truth lies somewhere in between the two.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
73. It is also possible she is telling the absolute truth.
The TSA creates that doubt you're talking about by denying the possibility of any direct proof, and they create that doubt every single time. If you use that doubt as proof that she's wrong, then every single person who complains is wrong. But that is exactly the strategy the TSA is counting on for their defense.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. TSA is Government. Would you like a short list of Government
lies?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. There is a pretty long list of random people making stuff up as well
I still think this one could go either way.
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flpab Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. correct
If you could hear the bleeding heart stories we hear daily. Just last week a girl arrived 10 min before wheels up and could not print her boarding pass, boo hoo everywhere, mommy is dying. We took her itinerary and she had booked the flight three days before. We lost all compassion to help her lying arse out then. Get to airport on time. When you don't fix their problems they get mean and ugly on you quick. The tears go and the yelling starts. They hate those re-booking fees.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. If her mom was dying, wouldn't the ticket be recently bought?
I wouldn't buy a last minute ticket unless someone was dying.
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flpab Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #38
77. correct but
She was acting like she had just got the ticket but it was bought three days before so was not buying the I just got the ticket story. She was late getting to the airport and had no boarding pass. Some regional airlines kiosk shut down 30 min before the flight for the paperwork. They also shut the ticket counter down because they unload the plane and board it themselves. COST CUTS. Delta stays open and we are next to the USAIR counter so hear these stories all day long.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. I see your post downthread as well
I'm not sure that there is enough info either way to assert what happened, but you are right to say that not enough time was allowed to make that flight regardless.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
54. There is the preconceived desire to find the TSA wrong
and the desire to call the US a "police state." And that is why these paragraphs are not considered:

But the Transportation Security Administration said in a statement Saturday that no strip search was conducted.

"While we regret that the passenger feels she had an unpleasant screening experience, TSA does not include strip searches as part of our security protocols and one was not conducted in this case," the statement read.


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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
69. the story is not even remotely believable
it is not just the "tsa rep," it is such claims as she had to get medical treatment and there is no record of any such medical treatment being given at the airport and so on

all this stuff gets written up at the airport

there's no way this happened and then multiple people, including a doctor NOT employed by the TSA, would go along w. a coverup
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The Northerner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
24. Is this acceptable so long as it's done for our "safety"? n/t
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. If you were innocent, you wouldn't even ask that question. TERRA! TERRA! TERRA!
On the bright side, this is one issue on which Republican and Democratic voters are united.

On the down side, this is also one issue on which Republican and Democratic elected officials are united.
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flpab Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
33. BS on so many things...
Zimmerman was dropped off by her son at Kennedy Airport for a 1 p.m. flight Tuesday to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, on JetBlue, she said. She arrived at the ticket counter around 12:20 p.m. and headed for security in a wheelchair, her small, metal walker in her lap.

I work at an airport, rule # 1, 12:20 for a 1 pm flight. 1pm flight does not mean that is the time you get to the gate, that is the time the plane is suppose to be up in the air or as we call it wheels up. She had no chance in hell of making that flight so now she doesn't want to pay re-booking fees so she puts all the blame on tsa. I have never seen a strip search at my airport but 80% of the pax call the pat down the strip search. Get over yourself Grandma, they don't make you take your ants off, no one wants to see your ass, maybe the medics lifted her pants to bandage her skin.

WHY do people drop off their grannies that are this old? You can get a gate pass and go with them at any airport. Thanksgiving and Christmas it looks like the nursing homes released their people at the airport. We see so many people with dementia and worse flying alone.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Hey, not to thread hijack--for whom can I get a gate pass?
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 06:31 AM by MADem
Are the gate passes just for old people or people who need assistance, or can one get one to escort a country bumpkin who hasn't done much if any flying? If I can get one, how do I go about it? Ask at the front check in desks?

I think your theory about the rebooking fee might be right on the money. I always get to the airport a couple of hours ahead, and I need every minute!
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. How To Get a Gate Pass at the Airport
Who will be considered for a gate pass?

A parent with a child flying alone known as unaccompanied minor (under 18)
A companion for a passenger that has a disability (perhaps to push a wheelchair, etc)
A companion for a passenger with with special needs (cant understand signs and/or instructions or perhaps needs a sign language interpreter)
A companion for a passenger who is elderly and may become confused or disoriented
Family members of Military service personnel who are reporting for duty or arriving home from active duty

How To Obtain a Gate Pass

Since every airline and airport may have slightly different rules, it is always best to phone the airline first to obtain any special instructions.
As a general rule, gate passes are issued at the airline ticket/check-in counter.
You will need the passengers name and flight number, and a government issued photo ID (drivers license).
If you are escorting a departing Military service member, they should have their military orders available as well as government photo IDs for everyone over the age of 18.
You may wish to enlist the assistance of one of the airline greeters (usually dressed in an airline blazer and standing near the entrance of the ticket counter lines). They are there to help direct folks to the proper counter and should be able to point you to the exact location to obtain the gate pass.
When you reach the counter personnel, explain that you wish to obtain a Gate Pass and explain the circumstances.

http://www.wickedgoodtraveltips.com/2008/03/how-to-get-...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. I will just have to try for the "slightly different rules" scenario, then.
I'm talking about putting a rube on a plane, who doesn't meet any of the other criteria. A babe in the woods isn't technically "special needs."

Guess I will call the airline and see if anything can be done.

Thanks anyway.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I don't think special accomodations are made for rubes
But good luck in your endeavors!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I'm of the "If you don't ask, you're sure not to get" school of thought.
Thanks for the well wishes!
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demicritic Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
39. Alien
She may barely look like alien and not terrorist in her mid 80's.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
49. Must be a
sadist to work at TSA.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
51. At what age should one be exempt?
When do the rules stop applying?

As to "looking" like a terrorist, heck with that.

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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
60. Enhanced patdowns are punitive. They are intended to be so unpleasant that
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 01:48 PM by tblue37
people will be afraid to ask for them instead of going through the machines.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
65. How does TSA know that there was not strip search?
Do they set up videos in the private search rooms?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
66. that what she SAYS, all right
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 05:45 PM by pitohui
after reading this article i still don't understand if what she SAYS has any relationship with what actually happened -- SHE says she was strip searched and injured and had to receive medical treatment, and there is no record of ANY of this, is everybody lying except her?

in fact the TSA replies that she WASN'T strip searched and it was by HER request that she was patted down in private instead of in the public area -- i always request to be patted down in the public area, it's faster and then there can be no "he said, she said" -- if you are concerned that TSA is going to do something hinky in the pat-down why would you want to go into a private area?

there is also no record of the supposed medical treatment?

i don't like being searched either but yes, solo women travelers are considered to be suspicious for whatever reason, i suppose we are believed to be suggestible, we're gonna get searched and maybe making a scene about it is her form of protest but i think it's a pretty useless one in this situation, they're still gonna search solo travelers, no matter how pitiful they look and act

maybe she's hoping for a lawsuit lottery but i don't think she is going to have much luck, maybe i'm just not devious enough to figure out how i can get my 15 minutes out of being searched
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
71. this is just stupid. But then I was groped by TSA when accompanied by my sis-in-law & two teenagers
We all look like the typical American family and there was no reason for the TSA guy to grope me up, down and between my legs.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. so TSA should only grope people who look atypically american?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
survivorista Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
84. Micro-infringements>
They happen to women every day. And we're taught to accept it. :grr:
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