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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 07:47 PM
Original message
4 children dead in Texas mass shooting
Source: CNN.com

(CNN) -- All four of the children wounded in a mass shooting in east Texas have died, police confirmed Thursday.

Lt. Andrew Lewis, a Bay City Police spokesman, said the deceased children were 2, 3, 4 and 5 years old. He did not identify them. The 2-year-old was a girl and the 4-year-old a boy, he said.

The children's mother was wounded in the shooting Wednesday afternoon and airlifted to a hospital in Houston, according to police. Her condition was not available Thursday evening.

The apparent gunman, who killed himself at the scene, was identified Thursday as Jose Avila, 24, the mother's husband. His relationship to the children, if any, was not disclosed.

The shooting occurred at a mobile home in Bay City, about 65 miles southwest of downtown Houston. Police responded at 3:18 p.m. (4:18 p.m. ET) Wednesday to a call that a woman had been shot.


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/01/justice/texas-mass-shooti...



Jesus...
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, those poor babies...
My heart goes out to the mom...

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auntAgonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. My heart aches for those poor defenseless children..
what on earth possesses people?

thoughts going out to the children's mother tonight.

An all round tragedy :(


:cry:

aA
kesha
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another senseless tragedy, thanks to the United State's lax gun laws. The 'gun rights' crowd in this
Edited on Thu Dec-01-11 07:54 PM by apocalypsehow
country are absolutely shameless in their indifference to the widespread carnage and mayhem their immature, deadly little hobby causes.

Edit: typo.
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes, but that's just the way it is. We must endure these things to accommodate their gun fetish.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. What's saddest about your spot-on reply is that's basically what the "gunz rulz!" crowd's arguments
Edited on Thu Dec-01-11 08:22 PM by apocalypsehow
boils down to: We want to own them, so to hell with the social costs!!! It's extended fit-throwing as a political argument.

Excellent post. :thumbsup:



Edit: duplicate word stricken.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Since gun violence is at a 50 year low and steadily declining
I don't understand the angst against gun ownership. Over the past two decades gun violence has steadily decrease while gun ownership has skyrocketed.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Quote your irrelevant statistic to the mother of those four dead kids in Texas - I'm sure she'll be
greatly comforted.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. How large must the number of deaths be before "angst" is justified?
How large must the number of deaths be before "angst" is justified?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. We calmly accept many other things that kill many more people
If your only concern was to save the most lives, guns wouldn't even be in the top 10.

Guns seem to elicit a response well out of proportion to the actual threat. The odds of you being shot have never been lower - you have never been safer. And that is even before you consider how much the gun death rate is skewed by the drug trade and the resultant violent criminal gang activity. Most gun violence is criminals shooting other criminals. Stay out of certain neighborhoods and your very low probability of getting shot gets even lower.





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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. That's nonsense, but putting that aside, we take positive steps to reduce/mitigate the deadliness of
things that are likely to cause large numbers of deaths. That's why seat belts are mandated in cars, and the BAT is legally .08% in all fifty states.

So your argument is really not for less regulation of guns, but more, along the lines of what we now do with cars: you must be licensed to drive a vehicle; must register to drive your vehicle with the state; and you must pay a yearly fee to the state to keep that vehicle in your possession; and you must report to the state whenever that vehicle goes out of your possession to another licensed driver.

Hey, I'm all for even that minimum level of government scrutiny being levied on guns! The NRA, however, would go sky-winding if such common sense laws were to be proposed. Their right-wing agenda precludes giving the slightest care of the mayhem their fondness for deadly toys is wreaking on this society. Right-wing scum is usually like that: selfish and non-civic minded.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Let's discuss the flaws in your logic.
Edited on Fri Dec-02-11 05:09 PM by hack89
Just like guns I do not need a license nor do I need to register a car if I keep it on my property and do not drive on public roads. Just like a drivers license, a concealed carry license is required to carry a gun in public.

So present gun laws are just as you want - why are you unhappy?
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Find some flaws, and we'll discuss them. I don't reply to non-responsive fictions. n/t.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. So guns are regulated like cars - got it. nt
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. So popcorn is sugared like cotton candy - got it. Meanwhile, #54 awaits. n/t.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I laid it out in black and white- show me where I am wrong. nt
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. You've been shown, but refuse to heed. This is a common feature of obfuscation. n/t.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I showed what you wanted is existing law. Not complicated at all. nt
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. You showed no such thing, but rather asserted it without the slightest evidence to substantiate the
claim made.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. So you maintain I need a driver license and registration for a car I never drive on a public street?
really? How many cars have you seen parked on a lawn or driveway for years?
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. *Yawn* Is the phony rhetorical question, like, the only reply you know when you're back into a
corner in a debate?


:boring:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I got it now - sorry I didn't catch on earlier
have a good night.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Your concession is duly noted. n/t.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. I love a good sense of humor. nt
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. In my state such cars still need to be registered and insured
Even if it has no engine or wheels and is clearly not drivable.

Frankly, I'd like to know what state allows people to own functioning cars to sit in a driveway or on a lawn for years while unregistered and uninsured.


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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Perhaps a better example would be farm vehicles
they don't need to be registered and you don't need a license to drive on the farm - my 12 year old nephew drives an old pick up all over his parents farm.


Some cities do have laws like you mention - but they are anti-blight laws designed to prevent their streets becoming junk yards.

My city does not do that - my neighbor is a cancer patient who has not driven in 3 years. His truck has not moved in that time and its tags still read 2008.
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Gringostan Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
56. With all due respect
With all due respect can we not leave the gun argument out of the discussion and grieve for the children; the issue is important, but do we need to bring it up at this time???
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Gun violence is at a 50 year low and steadily declining
the only indifference here is you indifference to the facts.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Your talking point really doesn't impress me - tell it to the mother of those four dead kids. n/t.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. So tell me exactly what law would have prevented this? nt
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Oddly enough, in most civilized countries on this planet earth they have laws that prevent these
Edited on Fri Dec-02-11 03:51 PM by apocalypsehow
kinds of massacres - which are something of a routine in the Unites States - on a daily basis.

Imagine that! Sensible gun control laws, keeping firearms out of the hands of folks who really don't need them. Funny how we haven't heard about a lunatic with a gun going on a rampage that kills anybody lately out of places like Japan, Australia, Canada, the UK...gosh, a pattern emerges!

Anticipating the deluge of nonsense:

1. Would be delighted with Switzerland's gun laws, that would require a citizen (a) to be a trained, enrolled member of the equivalent of the American National Guard to store a weapon at home, (b) safely store, locked up, firearms and ammunition separately, with only 50 rounds of the latter available on hand, (c) the firearms is registered and in a database, i.e., traceable to a person responsible for it, and (d) liable for unannounced compliance checks by authorized government agents into the home of the firearm possessor to make sure the storage laws are being complied with.

So you might as well spare me the "what about Switzerland?" business: I say, bring on Switzerland's gun laws! The NRA would hate it.

2. Don't care what they do in a state that makes up less than 1% of the total aggregate population of the United States, so not interested in hearing about Vermont.

3. Not interested in hearing how Japan, Australia, Canada, the UK, etc., etc., all happy, safe, prosperous democracies, are somehow failing in their job to keep their citizens from being slaughtered by gun mayhem because someone in London got knifed with a switchblade. It's a bogus argument.

4. Comparing industrial democracies comparative rates of gun violence, or lack of, is not an "apples and oranges" argument: Google it and find out what one is before you assert.

Gosh, this preemptive list could go on and on and on, as the reams of Gungeon "logic" that gets brandished whenever someone is flying to the defense of the NRA's right-wing agenda is always long, especially in a thread about four kids dead partly as a result of that agenda.

But I'm sure you'll fill in the blanks...



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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. None of those countries have insane drug laws and the resulting violence.
most gun violence is criminals shooting criminals - let's fix.the real problem.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Non responsive dodging & obfuscation. Also, false: drugs are illegal in every one of those countries
Please try again.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. They they have extensive gang violence in all their cities? Really? nt
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Non responsive. n/t.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I said that most gun violence is drug and gang related?
don't you think that comparing the level of gang violence is very relevant?
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. It's "relevant" only in the sense that if we had gun laws like Japan's & Europe's, there'd be whole
lot less of it. But that was not your initial assertion, in any event: having been proven wrong in one instance, you attempted here to change the subject and move the goalposts. It's a no-go, I'm afraid.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. So what was my initial assertion? I think you are confused.nt
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Fair Witness Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #46
58. When Susan Smith murdered her children, did you launch a vendetta against cars?
Just curious...
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Gringostan Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
55. Think of the loss
Can we not leave the stupid gun argument out of the discussion and grieve for the children for now. With all due respect the gun issue is important, but do we need to bring it up at this time???
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
57. I would be interested in knowing how an undocumented person got a gun.
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 06:21 AM by msanthrope
I'd be interested in knowing how this gun was obtained.


November 22, 2011, police said Gonzales filed an assault report and was taken by officers to a crisis center.
But later, she refused to press charges.
SNIP

It was not clear why the family reunited Wednesday, but Elizondo said that after the November 22 assault report, Gonzales told him she and Avila were afraid to get the police involved because of their immigration status.

"She was scared she didnt have papers, that he didnt have papers. They were both scared that they were going to get deported," Elizondo said.

Police did not confirm whether the family was in the country illegally, but investigators on Thursday said they were looking into it.

http://www.kens5.com/news/Police-All-4-children-shot-by...
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sickening on so many levels
What a fucked-up society................
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's one of the saddest things I've heard!
That's what happens when everyone has guns and a permit to use them. Any irresponsible fool can buy a gun in Texas and many other states. I'm frankly surprised there haven't been more killings. Maybe there have and they keep it a secret at the "request" of the IRA.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The IRA? Do you mean the Irish Republican Army? If so, the
cultural reference seems a bit antiquated.

Am I missing something?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. I think the poster meant NRA.
that evil organization that is part of the secret government that hides the facts about crime, guns, unemployment, inflation, etc etc.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Duh! Of course! I don't know how I failed to catch that it was a
typo.

Must be the flu and cold meds I've been taking.

Thanks for the clarification. Mystery solved. :)
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
11.  Check your own states requirements for firearm ownership,
before complaining about another's.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. That's an interesting comment from someone in a state that allows concealed carry with no permit
Unlike Texas.

:argh:
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
59. You can cite to where this murderer had a permit?
Or are you merely greatly confused on how this works?
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Swede Atlanta Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. What a tremendous tragedy..........
My thoughts and prayers go out to them. What provoked him to commit this horrible act? Was he under severe stress? Was he mentally ill? How did he come to possess a firearm? So many questions that will probably never be answered.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. For a while in South Florida there were a lot of men who, before shooting themselves...
would first shoot the wife and kids. This began to happen when the economy turned bad. Psychologists were all over TV explaining why so many men didn't just commit suicide and call it a day, without first shooting the wife and kids. It's a phenomenon that happens all too often, and it even has a name, Familicide, and it happens almost exclusively with men (95% of the perps are men).

Despondent dads driven to kill loved ones:
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-19/justice/murder.suici...

Familicide: The Killing of Spouse and Children:
http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dalywilson/FamilicideSpouseChi...

Inside the Mind of Family Annihilators:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/02/10/inside...

Murder-Suicide in Families:
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violen...

Fathers Who Kill:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psycho...

Familicide: a comparison with spousal and child homicide by mentally disordered perpetrators:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19072934

Familicide - Evolutionary Origins:
http://www.bizarrebehaviors.com/2009/09/familicide-evol...

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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. How horrible!
;(
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neovente Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. That poor mother...
The kids are not suffering. That poor woman has to face everyday the rest of her life without her children. I don't know how I'd survive something like that.
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coyote Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
21. I will never understand something like this.
How could you ever recover mentally from something like this?

Simply horrible.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. Great sadness. I hope this mother can explain to the rest of us what triggered this
killing...
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kiranon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. Wonder if the number of children killed by guns has gone up?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Here's a site where you can structure the question any way you want, and get real data to answer it
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

The answer to your question will vary depending on how you define "children," what kinds of incidents and intent are included, what years you choose to consider, etc.

Generally the answer is that firearm-related deaths have been trending slowly downward for many years.
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potone Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. How horrifying!
And just imagine the emotional pain that mother has in store for her if she even survives the shooting. It doesn't bear thinking about. I am sure we will know more soon about the circumstances, but once again the NRA defenders will find a way to say that guns were somehow not part of the problem here.
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
53. One of the saddest things I've heard on here, concerning happenings in Texas.
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 04:19 AM by AverageJoe90
Heartfelt condolences to all the surviving family members. :(
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