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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:27 PM
Original message
Chavez says gold being flown back to Venezuela
Source: Associated Press

Chavez says gold being flown back to Venezuela
updated 2 hours 1 minute ago 2011-11-25T18:23:59

CARACAS, Venezuela Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says a shipment of gold is being flown to Caracas as the government withdraws its gold reserves from U.S. and European banks.

Chavez said in a televised speech that the first shipment of gold is arriving on a flight Friday. He says the gold was previously held in Britain.

Chavez announced in August that his government would repatriate all of the gold reserves held in the U.S. and Europe, about 211 tons.

The leftist president has said his decision is aimed at helping to protect the oil-producing country from economic troubles in those countries.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45437800/ns/business-stocks... /
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's really just tungsten bars from China
With a little gold leaf on them.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Prudent. Although I wonder why it was ever in Europe or the U.S.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Virtually all countries store their gold in the U.S. and Europe.
Usually much safer than their own countries.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. If you thought you were actually going to buy or sell some
then you'd do it at an international market for it; and maybe keep it around there for convenience (if it's in a bank you already trust, then they might not even have to move it - just change their records to show the new ownership).
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. I guess I don't see how this protects Venezuela...
I'm not an international finance guy at all so I don't see how this hurts anything either. How does where they store their gold effect anything?
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Dutchmaster Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Because gold has real value.
as opposed to the worthless paper and numbers in computers that the international financiers have convinced us are worth something. They aren't. Why do you think Fort Knox is so heavily guarded? Because it's filled with our real wealth.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It is also why people buy gold. He is smart to bring the gold home
because they have it if the economies of other countries crash.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. It was a defensive measure due to the Iran sanction threats.
He doesn't want that money in the US so he can become more friendly with Iran, Syria, China, etc.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. So they don't have that wealth if it is stored somewhere outside their country?
What difference does it make where it is stored?
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Charronxyz Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Because gold has real value...
and a piece of paper that represent gold has little value in a world of corrupt international bankers.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. gold has no real value. It is as imaginary as paper.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. Great point. nm
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It makes a big difference on where it is stored

Chavez isn't the most popular leader with the U.S. government and the U.S. would love a reason for freezing Venezuela's foreign held assets, which includes gold reserves.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. ahhh, That makes sense
Keeping it from getting frozen is a good reason to move it back, I had not thought of that. Thanks!
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Hit the nail on the head. Nt
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. Yep, happened around the same time as the Iran sanctions threats.
But there's also the potential for looting the reserves since we know that they already looted Fonden.
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christx30 Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
61. And if the US
ever decides to freeze Chavez's assets, all they will prevent him from getting his hands on is the 2 for 1 coupon at Arby's. The stuff of real value is in at home, about 12 feet from where he is.
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Charronxyz Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The gold at Fort Knox is gone...
There has not been an annual audit of the gold at Fort Knox as required by law since 1952.
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Brother Buzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
12.  THIS IS SERIES!!!111!!! CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!@2!111!!!
Ron Paul is waiting
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. But cant our government make owning gold illegal? I think FDR might have done that.
Some one help me out here.
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. He did but FDR broke the law
He forced people to give up their gold.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. That's my point exactly. A president can and has forced people
to give up their gold. Easier today than in FDR age.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. No, actually gold has NO real value. It's just as arbitrary as a paper dollar.
Having gold doesn't make you live longer, or make you healthier. You can't eat it, you can't wear it, and you can't sleep in it. It's simply a form of valued property, putting it in the same class with, say, a stack of 20 dollar bills. The only thing different about gold is that you can't manufacture it--which doesn't make it automatically valuable in and of itself, it simply makes it uncommon.

The belief that gold has inherent value is strictly a result of thousands of years of obsession with something scarce and pretty.
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Dutchmaster Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. "value is strictly a result of thousands of years of obsession with something scarce and pretty. "
. . .. annnnd you just succeeded in making the case that gold idoes indeed have real value.
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. This is exactly what i was going to post.
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 06:44 PM by SnakeEyes
I wonder if some of the reactions in this thread arent the result of knee-jerk responses to the fact that Glenn Beck promotes gold and so people assume buying gold is a scam
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. No, you just imagine that what I said somehow validates your point.
It's as absurd as the people who imagine that somehow gold would be super valuable if civilization collapsed. No, the things that had value would be practical items: tools, food, weapons, etcetera. Gold would have exactly zilch value. For most of human history, economics have been barter based: coinage, and gold as coinage, is a relatively new thing and one inherently dependent on civilization and fiat value.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. If you're starving on a desert island, and you have a bar of gold and
your buddy has a bar of candy, who has the thing of value?

Gold is only handy because of what it can--in some cases--buy. That's the value of it, that people will exchange it for other things.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
54. but you contradict yourself. we value numbers in a computer just as much.
the value of gold is exactly equal to the value you give it.
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Thor_MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. You can't wear it? Odd, I see people wearing gold all the time...
True that it isn't going to keep you warm, unless it gets you someone to keep you warm. But your whole premise that gold has no inheirent value is hinged on reducing civilization to caveman standards. Which hasn't happened.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. No, my point is that it's value is entirely mental, NOT objective.
People value it because it looks pretty, not because it's inherently useful. It's "value" is just as imaginary as that of paper money.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. I am agreeing with you only to see how strong your heart is.
Something has value only because of its usefulness or popularity. Gold has some usefulness in jewelry and some industrial uses, but most of its value is do to its popularity. At one time, beany babies had value, but I wouldnt hoard them for economic collapse.
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Thor_MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. And my point is that unless society is reduced to hand to mouth, your point is moot.
As long as someone values gold, it has value.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. gold is a phony as paper dollars. It only has fiat value.
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. "fiat"... you keep using that word
im not sure it means what you think it means
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. Given that the person you're replying to is an ECONOMIST...
I dare say they DO know, much better than you.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Our reserves aren't stored in Knox, they're stored in the NY Federal Reserve.
The fees that we charge to store states' gold there is likely less than the cost to ship and guard it in their own countries, which is why they do it.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
53. They're actually stored in both,.
5,046 tons at Fort Knox, 7,716 tons in Manhattan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depo...
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. That Manhattan figure includes other countries' reserves too
The US total is 8,965.6 tons - http://www.cnbc.com/id/33242464/The_World_s_Biggest_Gol... . So about 4,000 tons in Manhattan is American gold.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
59. Real wealth? Please
Fort Knox holds roughly 147 million Troy ounces of gold. (fun fact: that's roughly 2% of all the gold ever extracted in human history) at friday's closing price of $1695.95/oz that means the aggregate value is $248,000,000,000. Yes, that's $248 billion. A lot of money, But half the revenues of Wal Mart last year. The GDP of the us last year was $14.58 trillion. Trillion. Trillion. 52 times larger.
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. How? By not letting a band of mercenaries to start a "rebellion",
to declare an alternative government, to get that government "recognized" by US and UK,
and to claim and receive that gold on behalf of "all Venezuelans". That's how.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. The costs to store it on their own will likely be decades of fees that the reserve here charges.
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 09:38 PM by joshcryer
The real reason is that they plan to rob the reserves when Hugo loses next year.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. Because fear of fraud and/or theft
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 08:12 AM by Demeter
The banksters will steal anything that is in their custody...see MFGlobal, mortgage-backed securities, and so on. Our government is playing fast and loose, enforcing laws in a biased, unfair fashion, besides.

Hell, if I could ship my KIDS to a safer, more law-abiding place, I would.
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Broderick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. On a different note than all the rest of the posters
WHY in the HECK would you announce something like that before it is secure???????


Seriously. 211 tons? GOLD? HEY look over here; I have 211 tons of gold being shipped in on Friday!


If it disappears, frankly my first thought is family security. His!


Stupid in my opinion.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
37. On the other hand, if it doesn't arrive
Everyone will know who is to blame...
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. something....
....is only worth what someone is willing to trade for it....and more people are willing to exchange something of value for gold, than pretty paper....

....gold that belongs to Venezuela should stay in Venezuela....less chance of 'confusion' over ownership rights....see, Hugo's not so dumb....
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes, but you don't break off chunks of a nation's gold reserve to buy stuff.
You use it's existence as collateral to finance national projects -- guns or butter.

What happens to a loan made on collateral that's just become more difficult to seize in a default? The terms become less favorable to the borrower, as compensation for increased risk on the part of the lender. Venezuela is about to find that out, I expect.

And Chavez will blame the west. "For no reason whatsoever, no one will loan us money. It's not my fault you don't have a water plant, it's the imperialists!!" etc etc
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Hugo Chavez has explicitly stated...

that Venezuela is not interested in "borrowing" from the usual suspects...

The "World Bank" and the International Monetary Fund(IMF).

That is one major reason he is vilified and demonized constantly by the minions of the 1%, like the Main $tream Media and the CIAs moles on this forum, and elsewhere.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. DU's CIA moles notwithstanding, who is going to finance anyone with inaccessible collateral?
Wells Fargo?
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Who makes huge loans to sovereign nations without collateral?

The "World bank" and the IMF have been making these sorts of loans for decades!

Who else?

Venezuela had about 400 tons of gold last year, supposedly. 14th largest horde of gold in the world. Many of the countries that have large debt loads have relatively small gold bullion reserves...
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Chavez doesn't NEED "Financing"
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 08:18 AM by Demeter
He stopped the foreign corporations from exporting profits, he stopped the flight of capital by the wealthy, he educates, houses, feeds, and maintains the health of his people. And Venezuela has oil, and solid contracts with China. His nation even has gold mines!

Chavez is building a strong, independent NATION--not an oligarchy. We should try that, ourselves.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. LOL OK. nt
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Chavez has borrowed $32 billion from China. nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #40
55. Yes - that's for social programs
.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. No, that's for oil investment projects with CNPC
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. there were two lots of thirty
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 11:10 AM by dipsydoodle
$30 billion worth of Venezuelan debt as well as an additional $32 billion oil-for-credit deal with China.
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
42. Gold and land ownership indeed have real world value
Yes the banking system and paper money turned out to be revolutionary. But I am shocked that there are people that believe gold doesn't have value.

Anyways, what Chavez is doing is ensuring that his country has more freedom to negotiate as he pleases what is best for Venezuela. The reason Chavez is announcing this is because Democracies require a level of transparency. It is not Chavez' gold, but the people of Venezuela. Public assets, expenditures and goods need to be transparent for a Democracy, but apparently most Americans do not realize this.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. However, either can be easily taken from you by the government. nm
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. And what can't be? Your bank accounts? Maybe your pension?
Even your very life can be "easily taken from you by the government".
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
52. Surprised this wasn't done in 2002.
This is just a simple matter of national security.
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