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Paper Ballot Election Results Flip in UT After 'Recount' Finds Original Tally 'Extremely' Wrong

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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:32 PM
Original message
Paper Ballot Election Results Flip in UT After 'Recount' Finds Original Tally 'Extremely' Wrong
Source: BRAD BLOG



Paper Ballot Op-Scan Election Results in Utah Flipped After 'Recount' Finds New Tally 'Extremely in Favor of Opposite Candidate'
'We're doing recounts of recounts of recounts,' says candidate announced as 'loser' on Election Night...


After the Municipal Council elections in Provo, Utah on November 8, residents had been told that Gary Winterton had narrowly defeated Bonnie Morrow for the District 1 seat --- by just 9 votes.

The margin was close enough that Morrow was allowed to ask for a recount of the paper ballots which were tallied on Election Night by the city's optical scan systems made by Diebold Election Systems, Inc. (Following years of failure of Diebold's voting systems, the company changed their name to Premier, only to see the assets of the failing company finally purchased last year by Dominion Voting, a Canadian firm which now services the machines.) The same optical scan systems are used all over the country, and are set once again for use in the New Hampshire's "first in the nation" GOP Presidential primary to be held in January.

The first "recount" of Provo's Municipal Council District 1 ballots --- carried out on the same op-scan systems that tallied them in the first place --- was held yesterday, only to be abruptly called off when the results were found to be "extremely in favor of the opposite candidate"

FULL STORY: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8948


Read more: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8948
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Our elections are a total joke...
Most likely, the majority of elections are stolen and the results fudged.

Why in the world anyone would argue how important it is to vote--is beyond me. It's
very sad, but the corruption and potential for fraud is so great--that voting has
become incredibly questionable and probably meaningless.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. For Now
But since folks like you and Brad continue to press for clean and transparent elections one day we will get justice and good elections again.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. I doubt it. There was such an outcry after 2000. I was sure Democrats would do something when they
got control again.

They held some hearings, which established how easy it was to rig elections, then did nothing, not even force Republicans to a public vote.

It was such stunning inaction, especially when you consider that the vote is supposedly the basis of our entire system and their very own jobs depend on votes.

We really need to ponder why that happened.

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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
45. It was after 2000 that Congress called for unverifiable electronic devices.
The Dems were duped into believing they were better than mechanical punch or lever devices.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
150. Do you have any basis at all for assuming they were duped?
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
69. yeah...
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 01:30 AM by nebenaube
That was when I gave up... Where I voted in Wisconsin uses the same junk... with all the thugg ery that is going on there now over the recall petitions; I sense that the first skirmishes of the next 'civel war' will start there... on edit: they just legalized conceal carry there in a state where even a bow had to be in a case...
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
72. That was when I began to fear that some substantial no. of Dems were essentially corrupted.
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 02:28 AM by snot
Their failure to act on that issue, as well as their acquiescence in the loosening of restrictions on media consolidation, made no sense unless they were complicit.
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2pooped2pop Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #72
114. yep, me too. n/t
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
77. They didn't "do nothing" here - the Democratic PARTY strongly SUPPORTED the machines
When the public asked them about election fraud, they said the machines were trustworthy against outside hackers. When the public asked how secure they were against hackers INSIDE the system, they literally smiled and said "you'll just have to trust us."
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
137. GOP/rove convinced tens of millions by radio that dems/acorn/ illegals are stealing
they controlled the messaging on this like everything else- by invisible radio waves-

GOP could generate instant statewide ridicule via local radio blowhard for any dem official suggesting fraud without proof. the same mechanism, mainly talk radio, was use to make excuses to keep americans from charging into the streets, and bring out hoards of dittoheads to attack any dem questioning without proof.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
101. Yeah, it's almost like they're complicit
Strike the "it's almost like".
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
123. Actually,
at that specific point, it became crystal clear that the 'Democrats' were in the same lifeboat as the 'Republicans,' and the vast Hoi Polloi was floundering in the shark-infested waters.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #123
153. It did not become obvious to me until about a year or two ago. Old habits die hard, I guess.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #153
169. Well,
I would argue that some of us--myself and, judging from your response, you--prefer to trust what people say. Isn't that what it means to have integrity--that a person with integrity is a truthful person?

Plus, we are taught to trust our government (good ol' patriotism, that last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...), and to exercise our right to vote. We are TRAINED to view voting as a civic duty AND a fundamental right.

I think Frank Zappa was right. Now, TPTB are pulling down the curtains, so that we can clearly see the brick wall. I suspect they are so confident in their mendacity that they think we'll fuss for a little while, and then adjust to the new scenery.

They are so very wrong...
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
126. I thought they would too.
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 01:04 PM by tblue
Why didn't they? Pelosi/Reid/Obama? WTH?!
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oldhippydude Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #126
134. the excuse they use
is that they are aware, but bringing it out in the open would simply add to the number of folks that are already staying away figuring what/s the use..
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #134
151. Very lame. That does not explain why they did not pass laws while they controlled Congress.
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 05:06 AM by No Elephants
Strong, strong punishments for election fraud.

If election fraud might disencourage turnout, then strong penalties for election fraud might encourage turnout, right?


What the hell is the point of not discouraging voter turnout if the machines decide the vote anyway?

Sorry, that excuse does not hold together at all.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Self delete. Dupe.
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 09:14 PM by No Elephants
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reACTIONary Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
139. UPDATE: Hand-count finds ORIGINAL tally correct...
So they had some problem during the recount, stopped and did it right. And the original counts proved correct.t t

You know there are always at least two parties in every election both keeping an eye on each other. Neither are going to tolerate any nonsense from the other.

If you are suspicious, why don't you volunteer to be an election judge or observer? My guess is that you would come away from the experience with confidence in the system.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Voting and demanding clean elections go hand in hand
I think its clear enough.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. We have independent pollsters making their counts, too -- which is the way
we validate elections in foreign countries. Everyone voting is very important, because it is harder for them hide a very big discrepancy in the count. The bigger the margin, the better.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. A truly "independent" pollster in the Uniuted States? Who might that be?
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 09:22 PM by No Elephants
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
76. Not so far
We as a nation appear to find it quite easy to ignore any evidence that there might be a discrepancy, big or small.
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
86. Just. wow. we need 2 shine some bright sunlight on this dank disihonesty & corruption.~nt
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. It's not like a big secret our elections have been hacked into tiny pieces by 1%'s wood-chipper ~nt
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #87
106. That is what is so telling.
We have "shined the light" very brightly, for years, about the discrepancies in our "voting" system. It has not mattered. That makes it very apparent that all or most of our politicians are aware of and complicit in the theft of our democracy. Until 2000, exit polls were so accurate that an election could be "called" before the polls even closed. this was the case for decades. When "W" was selected, it all changed. The exit polls proved that "W" had lost in many states and that he did not stand a chance after he lost Florida.

Viola, one call to Jeb and it all changed. Florida along with a few other states( where the exit polls had already called the race, against "W" suddenly became "up for grabs" and were switched from the "D" category to either the "R" category or the "too close to call" category. "Our" media was obviously complicit. They readily accepted and even apologized to America for the sudden inaccuracies of their exit polls. They gave the most ridiculous "explanations" ever heard. (" people who had voted for "W" lied to the exit pollsters," etc.)

Since the democrats did not fight much and the repubs were screaming their lies as usual, it was so obvious that our elections no longer mattered. Poppy bush spent much of his career, "fixing elections" in other countries, that stealing Americas democracy was just another day for the bush crime syndicate.

"We elect" no one. TPTB (just like the politburo in the old USSR did) decide who they want for a figurehead and that is who we get. It is the same for Congress and SCOTUS. America has been seized.

We must join OWS if we hope to restore America.
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Take note ..this is how Obama will lose in 2012
and no the backbone Democrats will let everything slide and Repukes will tally up another election theft.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. If that happens, I predict you will see an
occupy protest movement like you've never seen before. Wisconsin and Ohio were only a taste of what could come. People are really fed up and I don't think they will put up with the shenanigans of the corrupted election system any longer.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
63. It will be too late by then. They will call out the militarized troops.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
108. K & R!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. I would be beyond stunned if Obama lost in 2012.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
102. Would you be stunned enough to join us in the streets?
I don't think it will happen but I didn't think they would steal the 2004 election and they did, so.......
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #102
154. I would be happy to be in the street. Who is "us" though? Precious few out there with OWS.
200,000 in Tahrir Square the other day, according to the estimate of one NBC reporter who was there.

42 in Washington, D.C.--and that was twice as many as the ones who started the trek there.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
107. Me too.
If Obama "lost" there would be some r/w changes occur faster, in the endgame, if we allow things to continue, the changes will happen eventually. Whatever TPTB wants.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
110. Unless the PTB decide otherwise.
:shrug:
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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Karl Rove's "the math" at work for America
:mad:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. Did Rove control Congress between January 2007 and January 2011?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
103. Apparently,
I thought the Democrats did, but since they were still acting like the minority party, maybe they knew something we didn't.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
138. no, but 1000 invisible radio stations still sell the notion dems/illegals/acorn steal elections. and
the roves still manage most of that messaging.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. WTF? ..... "30% of voters next year will be voting on unverifiable touch-screen machines"?
This is terrible!...............According to the Brad Blog article:

"20 to 30% of voters next year will be forced to vote on 100% unverifiable touch-screen voting systems next year, the very same paper-ballot optical-scan machines that failed in 2008....."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
118. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GoCubsGo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
119. Dupe.
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 12:00 PM by GoCubsGo
Sorry.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. These machines are what we need to be protesting.
OWS, are you listening?
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stillwaiting Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. They are ONE thing we need to be protesting.
The entire system and way we elect our candidates must change.

Paper ballots is one very important thing that must change.

There are many others.

Removing legalized bribery, instituting publicly funded elections, imposing term limits, creating bans on serving as lobbyists/corporate BOD's/etc., creating a massively reduced campaign season - it's time to kill the circus, etc.

We need to make the system work for the people and not have a system that guarantees millions to those of us who become elected to Congress. Those days are hopefully coming to an end one day.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Boston went to paper ballots for the 2004 Presidential, but then went to a different form of
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 09:30 PM by No Elephants
automated and, in both cases, counting was done electronically.

In both cases, the voter received no verification.

That is a Democratic Mayor in a state that has had over 90% Democrats in the state legislature for as long as I can remember and, since 2006, has had a Democratic Governor--one of Obama's campaign co-chairs in 2008, in fact.

I finally faced that both Parties loves them some electronics in voting.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
62. "Both Parties loves them some electronics in voting"???......I don't think so!
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 12:32 AM by red dog 1
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
75. Hon, I'm afraid you need to look into some history. Seriously.
Dig into the Election Reform forum archives for a bit. If there was any doubt before 2004 that the situation was dire, that clinched it. Greg Palast and some others did first-rate investigative work, and statisticians did first-rate analyses showing the utter impossibility of some of the election results, and computer experts demonstrated time and again how easily the machines could be hacked, and Kennedy Jr. published a couple of brilliant articles in Rolling Stone, and grass-roots people like me and some other DU'er's gave money and wrote letters and hollered, and John Conyers held hearings and wrote a book about it, and the rest of Congress did nothing.

And then DU created a separate forum for the issue, so now most DU-er's don't have to hear about it.

But in any event, there is absolutely no way that Congressional Dems could have remained ignorant of the dangers of electronic voting.
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #75
133. Kerry won Ohio in 2008
but in some counties the machines were programmed so that every 10th vote for Kerry "flipped" to Bush. That's all it took. Plus that county that closed their doors to tabulate the votes in secret and the press was locked out (Cant remember which one). Ergo: Bush won! (the presidency that is.) Thank you Ohio.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #133
157. If the elections in 2000 and 2004 were in fact stolen from Democrats by Republicans,
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 06:01 AM by No Elephants
isn't that all the more reason to be stunned that Democrats did not enact laws, such as stiffer penalties for election fraud, when they took control of Congress in 2006? Or at least forced Republicans to vote against such laws?

Please see Reply 15 and the responses to it, among other posts on this thread.

We really need to update our red team, blue team paradigm.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #75
141. What? An election fraud dungeon??? Why?
That's ridiculous. Do TPTB at DU think it's wild conspiracy talk???

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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. Sorry; I don't think it was actually meant as a dungeon, but . . .
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 08:59 PM by snot
unfortunately, at least some of the effects were similar.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #75
144. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #144
158. Which federal laws were enacted? And if you are relying on Bradblog, please
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 06:06 AM by No Elephants
see his post on this subject, agreeing with me.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #144
159. Self delete. Dupe
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 06:05 AM by No Elephants
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #75
172. "HON", .I went to DU Election Reform forum....Here's what I found ..(& it's Frightening!)
"GOP Election Director Calls Into 'Malloy Show' on Probes With Pa. County's E-Voting Systems"....http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8834

"Ohio Supreme Court Throws 2012 Elections Into Chaos"
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2011015/NEWS01/1101

"Florida and other GOP-dominated states' new election rules could shut out 5 million voters in 2012"
http://www.postonpolitics.com/2011/10/florida-and-other -

"Disenfranchise No More"
http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/disen...

"EAC Initiates Formal Investigation Into ES&S Unity 3.2.0.0 Voting System"
http://www.eac.gov/eac-initiates-formal-investigation -

"Microsoft Researchers Propose Using Crypto-Technique as Temporary Band-Aid For Making E-Voting Secure"............(E-Voting remains insecure Despite Paper Trail)
http://www.infoworld.com/t/security/e-voting-still-inse... -

We need good old fashion' paper ballots in all 50 states...throw all the new machines out..........I wonder if the Republicans would agree to that?

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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #75
179. HON........you're right!
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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #62
80. ""Both Parties loves them some electronics in voting"???......I don't think so!" / I do.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. Indeed
I do too - it gives them TOTAL control. any decent Dem will oppose these horrible machines - if they don't, they are bought pure and simple. how hard is it to hand count? sheesh.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #80
147. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #62
121. See post #120 re the Help America Vote Act of 2002.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #121
148. Does post # 120 show that Democrats want voting machines without a paper ballot recount option?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #121
149. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #149
168. "show"? "prove"???? Bwaa, ha, ha etc. ... don't know where you're trying to go with that. The post
I referenced is simply a suggestion to look into how HAVA was written, most especially by whom, and more importantly how it was implemented, again, and even more importantly, by whom.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. Re: how HAVA was written, by Whom, & How it was implemented & by Whom.
patrice, I've looked up & down here & can't find your post # 120.

After that, I went to Brad Blog & read everything I could on HAVA; and found nothing as to WHO in Congress actually wrote or Who in Congress actually implemented it.

However, I did find some disturbing information about the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, including EAC activities after Obama came to office & when Dems controlled the House of Representatives.

Brad Bolg ...Guest Blog by John Gideon of Voters Unite.org
"Eac-Ya: The Nation's Federal System's Voting Oversight Commission Refuses To Do It's Job, Answer a Simple Question."

From the article, Gideon writes:
It's clear that if there is to be any federal body to recommend investigation and/or prosecution to the DoJ, in regards criminal violation of federal law concerning voting systems, it is to be the EAC, the body charged with testing, certifying, and performing as the "national clearinghouse..with respect to the administration of federal elections." (42 U S C ^ 15322) and the electronic voting systems employed across the country.
And yet the EAC has continued to utterly fail in those duties, as a particularly maddening chain of inquiries and e-mails---back and forth and round and round--that we'd sent to the EAC commissioners and their spokesperson over the past three months
illustrates all too well."

Gideon was getting bullshit answers & promises of e-mail replies that never came.

Since this was taking place both before and after Obama took office in 2009, it appears that election irregularities regarding electronic voting machines wasn't something that President Obama thought important enough to do anyhting about.

I still would like to see what you have in post # 120; and if you want to message it to me, I would appreciate it.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #62
156. Anything at all to support your assumption?
I gave some of the bases for my conclusions in Replies 15 and 25.

Replies to my Post 15 and other posts on this thread indicate the bases some other posters had for agreeing with me.

You, however, did not state any basis for your disagreement.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #156
171. Nope! ...I stand corrected & now see that Obama doesn't care about voting machine fraud
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #171
174. Obama? I referred you to my posts about Congress and Boston.
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 10:05 PM by No Elephants
This is way bigger than Obama.

BTW, I saw that you had a problem finding a post on the thread. Explorer and Chrome both enable you find something on a web page instantly. In Explorer, it's under the "EDIT" heading. In Chrome, it's where you see the little wrench icon.

Just type 120. and click on "Find." Be sure to put a period after the post number.

The "Find" function will make your life on message boards so much easier. It did mine, anyway.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #174
176. You're Right!..."This is way bigger than Obama!"
"Explorer"?..."Chrome"?....I am barely able to post here & on my blogs, and barely able to write e-mails....I'm still a Beginner here on this computer & can only afford crappy dial-up, so I'm unable to even watch videos longer than 1 minute....

I read your other posts & I now agree with all you say...It IS way bigger than Obama.

I can't believe how naive I was to think that only the Repubs wanted DRE's with no verification....it's the Dems too.

Brad Friedman straightened me out in a long response to an e-mail I sent him....
He told me "even the
Voter Verifiable Paper Audit Trails", or VPATs, added to the Direct Recording Electronic (DRE) machines still do not make them any more verifiable..
A DRE with a VPAT is still a 100% unverifiable voting system."

He also told me that many Dems in Congress do not want verifiable DREs, including Rush Holt "who once told me he'd be happy if everybody in the country voted on unverifiable touch-screen systems." ...(and I thought Holt was one of the "good guys")

After spending a couple of hours in the DU Election Reform forum, I found some very disturbing information about the unverifiable DREs;.... but I also found a possible "temporary fix",... it's the last link that I list in Post # 172.,(HON,I went to DU Election Reform forum etc)
"Microsoft Researchers Propose Using Crypto-Technique As Temporary Band-Aid For Making E-Machines Secure"

Too bad we can't just throw out all the damn touch-screen & optical scan voting machines & bring back the good old mechanical voting machines where you pull down the levers,.... remember them?
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
90. Plus one! nt
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. You want someone else to protest?
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Someone else?
I'm not sure what you mean.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Someone other than yourself..
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. Why shouldn't I?
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. To clarify... Why shouldn't I protest?
You think it needs to be someone other than me? :shrug:
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some guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
73. I think the point was
in your post # 7 you call for OWS to protest.

The response was essentially why aren't you protesting instead of calling on OWS to protest for you.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. And my subject line said
"These machines are what we need to be protesting."

I was including myself.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
43. The list s long
That happens to be in the list.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. We need to constitutionally ban electronic voting - it's getting dangerous.
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. We already passed "dangerous" in 2000
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. Good luck with that. (Please see replies 15 and 25.)
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
64. We need a movement and petitions and actions NOW.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
10. Paper ballots. Hand counted. In public. Nothing less. n/t
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Paka Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Amen to that. n/t
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. YES!!! On a national PATRIOTIC HOLIDAY for voting, begins on Friday and ends the following Tuesday.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Great idea. n/t
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Yeah, if we can get 4 days off for religious holidays, why not for a holiday for saving our ass by
VOTING???

Make it a huge celebration, bigger and more patriotic than the 4th of July.

Go ahead and indulge our every impulse for commercialism to motivate everyone to register and vote.

Hell, we might even get more than 50% of registered voters to vote.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Saving our ass by voting on a Diebold machine?
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 09:44 PM by No Elephants
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. No. See post #10 & its sub-thread. nt
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #39
152. Paper ballots, counted in public, by hand is simply not going to happen, though.
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 05:28 AM by No Elephants
So, yeah, it's voting machines and/or counting machines made by Diebold or by someone else.

And, even if paper ballots, counted in public by hand, were to happen, voting might not "save our ass."

For proof, I give you the federal elections of 2006 and 2008, esp. 2008. Overwhelming majoritiy in the House, 60 in the Democratic caucus in the Senate and a Democrat in the WH. Yet, my ass was not saved.

ETA: And for those who bring up Lieberman every time a knee jerks, the Senate rules could have been changed by a simple majority of Senators in January 2007, January, 2009 (and January 2011, but changing them then would have been too obvious).

Moreover, there is no evidence Lieberman was leaned on for anything besides supporting McCain.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
130. Patrice, I remember getting my first SS card. I was 12.
I had worked as an electricians helper and some other cash jobs prior to that. But at 12 I had to get my SS card when I took over two paper routes. Not today. When children are born, they "get their papers." Of course "our" government could do the same with voter I.D.'s. Either at birth or when they turn 18 a person could automatically be registered to vote.

This would make more sense than forcing SS cards on newborns. Unfortunately, until we actually get legitimate elections, it doesn't matter.

IMO, voting should be mandatory for every American. Further, I think the continued "caging" practices that are done by the rethugs (at least) are just a cover for the fact that our voting no longer counts. We have been taken over.

Hopefully, OWS is the beginning of the end of this coup.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
91. I'm with you, patrice.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. How hopeful
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. But that would be FAIR! Can't have that in this plutocracy. nt
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. It's the ONLY way! n/t
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wakemewhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
56. +1 n/t
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
65. Yes
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
104. Nothing less, nothing more.
Simple and yet, somehow, unachievable. No wonder I and many others have turned away from Washington politics. The stink of illegitimacy is just too strong to take.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. I think distrust of our elections keeps ~ 25% of eligible voter home. n/t
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
127. Paper ballots. Hand counted. In public. Nothing less.... AMEN!
...And ONLY ONE "Democrat" has the courage to STAND UP and point that out,
and he has been marginalized by the Party leadership,
and now "redistricted".


There are now MORE unverifiable BBV and Tabulators in operation
than when the "Democrats" assumed control of Congress in 2006.











You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
142. With international monitoring! n/t
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. No fuckin wonder we're in debt...we can't count.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. Well, our education system is not the best, but we can count, if we really want to.
"If we really want to" being the key words. Please see Replies 15 and 25.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. Beware voter suppression psychology
If people get the impression voting is futile, they will not vote .....
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. ....or who they vote for turns out to be a dipfuck!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. What a bizarre reaction to posts about election fraud by voting machine.
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 09:42 PM by No Elephants
Besides, people don't vote as it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout

The most strange thing (IMO). Tthe U.S. census makes no attempt to count adults in the U.S. who are eligible to vote.

I once email them asking which percent of adults who are eligible to vote did not vote in the 2004 election. They replied they did not have any information that would enable them to answer that question.

Then, they started sending me emails trying to sell me stuff. Only in America.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. Ahhhh... Ummmm....
Thanks for being on top of this, as always, Brad.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
33. SOMEWHERE along the way`
I never caught a glimpse of the memo that reasoned WHY we were going to Op-Scan and Electronic "ballots" in the first place! I can only conclude that these fallible machines were pushed on us because they were manufactured in some congress-dolt's district and HE twisted arms that got us stuck with these jokes.

I know I risk sounding awfully ignorant with that question, but I honestly want some info as to why were STILL persisting with this junk when it's been shown that they're anything but trustworthy.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. You don't sound ignorant. You sound trusting.
Please see Replies 15. and 25.

In my mind, there is pretty much only one reason why people in either party whose very jobs depend on voting machines don't act on the issue beyond holding some hearings about how easily the machines can be fixed.
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. The name 'Diebold' comes to mind.
The guys who make the ATMs...

People often wonder, how come these companies make bank equipment and it functions pretty close to 100% for the banks..however when it comes to voting it seems to malfunction and be horribly inaccurate, even inconsistent while it is tabulating votes.



The one percent not only buy elections, they OWN 'em.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Thanks
funny you should mention their ATMs. I deposited a check into one just about two hours ago. Just a bare check and it read the amount and certified that I had co-signed it's backside for deposit. This has worked flawlessly for me many and many a time in recent years. Amazing that the voting machines cant "cut it".
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
117. Thank YOU!
It was your question that made start thinking about that. I'd never really thought about it before in post-OWS perspective. :)
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disndat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
124. ATM bank machines are monitored 24/7
for accuracy. Banks cannot afford malfunctioning of their ATM machines. Whereas the Diebold voting machines are programmed to favor the candidate of choice.
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Xtraneous Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. Not only are they not trustworthy...
but several of the companies' principals are foreign criminals and the software is "proprietary"! I've been reading BradBlog since he started in 2001(?) and you would think that things would get better, yet they've actually gotten much worse. I'm in NY State. We were the last ones to give in- unnecessarily according to HAVA- to the hijacked computerized crap. We had lever machines, some of which were 80 years old and still working perfectly with a little maintenance. Now we have plastic crap that isn't only unreliable and untrustworthy, but cost a fortune to "update" and "maintain". With the lever machines we had local results within the hour of the polls closing. This last election it took close to 3 hours to get digitized results. It would have taken far less time to hand count at the polling places.

I vote only out of habit now. I EXPECT my vote not to be counted as I intended.
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PotatoChip Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #51
97. Wow your town w/the lever machines
has been ahead of mine for a long time apparently. We are completely 'machine-less' and always have been. We still drop our ballots into a century old wooden box. Ballot clerks then count them by hand after the polls close.

Most of the towns around here are like mine btw. Machine voting comes up from time to time at town meetings but always gets voted down. No one wants to spend the money on 'new-fangled' things like lever machines. ;-)
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
59. Because meat machines are even worse.
It's harder to bribe a metal machine, and easier to rip them open when their results are less than accurate.
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Devil_Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. Figures don't lie, but liers will figure. The machine is only as trust worthy as the programer. NT
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. "The machine is only as trust worthy as the programer."
This is true of both meat, and metal, machines.

It's much more legal to dissect the metal ones, than the meat ones, though. Humans get kind of angry when you want to dissect them while they're still running.

(That being said, "magic code" meat, and metal, machines, are both suspect if they cannot be dissected and inspected for flaws.).
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #66
95. liars
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
120. Look at the geneology of the Help America Vote Act of 2002 i.e. how it was written -AND- implemented
"... un-natural, machine men ..." all of the way through.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
35. And this will be all over the MSM. NOT. This vote flipping is now the norm and the ruling class's
dirty little secret.

:grr:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. +1. While I think Jay Z is scum for not thinking about sharing profits with the OWS movement,
his tweak to the slogan was perfect: Occupy ALL Streets.

Thing is, we already do--and we don't use that.



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Dj13Francis Donating Member (343 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
37. Huh.
Wow. Nobody could have seen that coming. Huh...

Oh yeah... Uh, wasn't that what I've been saying all along?

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
46. As always, thanks, Bradblog.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
48. There is no citizen voting process in America. It's all a sham. I wish an army
would blow up all the vote-thieving machines.
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
49. It's hopeless when the Dems are too weak to do or say anything even when the evidence
is staring them in the face.
:banghead:
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #49
115. you've got to wonder if "weak" is the right word. I think it
is more like "complicit".
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
160. Assuming they say nothing only because they are weak is, well, an assumption.
Do you have any basis to assume that their reason for saying nothing is weakness?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
53. Isn't just too odd that Diebold machines never ever make a mistake
in a bank setting when dispensing money, but always seem to chronically make mistakes favoring candidates who are pugs or backed by pugs...especially considering the owners of Diebold are rabid pugs. Complaints of their crooked behavior are made over and over and over, yet nothing is done.

Our elections are just scams to make pug election fraud look respectable.

We keep asking ourselves why do voters vote against their own interests...for the most part they don't, but the voting machines DO vote against their interests.

Thank you Brad for keeping this vastly criminal story alive.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
181. Hi ooglymoogly.
Glad to catch you and here's a small toast:

:toast:

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IamK Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
54. do you think Al Gore would be thinner now if he was elected president?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
161. Is that an anti-Gore slam or a fat joke, or both?
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riverbendviewgal Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
55. we use pencil and paper in Canada
and manually count our ballots.

I like this....
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
58. No problem, just stop using those pesky paper ballots that are fed into these and the plm is solved!
Great. This is what we use here in WI. Stop the machines! Just tell the media and the American public to sit on their hands and wait for the counts to be completed. In public. By hand. Might take a couple weeks. We don't need INSTANT results on election night!
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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #58
83. Can't tell if you're being snarky, or if you're misinformed...
...But if you count the ballots by hand, in front of the public, all parties and video cameras at the precinct with results posted there before ballots are moved anywhere, it won't "take a couple weeks". It'll likely take a few hours. As it does in places like 40% of NH towns where all the ballots are counted by human beings and often completed before the Diebold towns have finished their counts.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #83
145. Sorry for the confusion. I am completely in favor of hand counts on paper, in public
I have no idea how long it will take, but we need to get over this idea that we have to have numbers RIGHT NOW. If we can do it quickly and accurately and fairly and legally in a couple hours, that is great. If we have to wait, it will be worth it. Peace.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
60. Every American voter should be required to watch that video! ... Recommended
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
61. As always, thanks to bradblog for staying on top of this. REC. nt
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. +a billion. Thanks, Brad, for your awesome service to all of us.
Your work, and the work of your staff, on behalf of the interests of the 99%, is so very greatly appreciated.

Thank you for totally understanding and exposing the entire spectrum of electronic voting lunacy.
:yourock:
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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #70
84. Thanks backatcha, Zorra. And if I had a staff, I know they'd thank you too! :-)
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
67. kr
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
71. K&R'd. I can't believe we're acquiescing in the use of these machines.
Some of us on DU kicked and screamed about it for years, but never managed to arouse much interest even on DU. I hope maybe that's about to change.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #71
113. That's because we were browbeaten into not caring by the fucking trolls
There were several Usual Suspects here mocking and shouting that "THERE'S NO PROOF" each and every time it was brought up. This was a very well-coordinated effort. Cleverly, one of the principals in that effort was one Bev Harris (Harpy Grifter, Hell), who managed to convince a lot of people, myself included, that she was on "our side".

That ended when people started hacking the machines to play Pac-Man, but the damage was long done by that time. The bastards got what they wanted compromised elections and laws requiring the use of compromised machines written with closed-source software.

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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
78. Not to be a Luddite or anything...
...but why not just return to hand-counted, paper ballots? Sure, it means we might have to wait several days, maybe even a week or two, before the final tallies come in. But paper ballots make it much easier to verify actual. votes in the event of any question. Seems like instantaneous results are a pretty small sacrifice considering the stakes.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #78
88. Totally agree. Though our esteemable M$M always has its
Talking Heads weighing in on how very important it is to the nation and to the candidates to have the instant results.

Why they wouldn't prefer that the results be correct rather than instantaneous, I don't know.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #78
92. Because a lying human is harder to fix than a broken metal machine.
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #92
125. If ONLY the problem were a matter of "broken" machines...
But, speaking as someone who has a fair amount of programming experience, I know how easy it is to slip a bit of code into the software that runs these machines. This isn't a matter of a malfunctioning machine; the machine is functioning exactly as it was built to function (I.e., according to the instructions coded in the software).

Also, I grew up in a small town that used paper ballots until fairly recently. In fact, my mother was often one of the counters. There were always at least four counters, two from each party, as well as an offi ial observer. It would have been VERY difficult to pull off a lie.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #125
173. "two from each party"
So, if there are 74 parties, that would be 148 counters? I doubt that.

It doesn't matter who votes, it matters who or what counts, and how a vote is counted.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #92
163. Nonsense. Those machines are not broken. If you believe that
elections are stolen via machines, they are programmed by humans. And a human is a hell of a lot easier to punish than is a machine.

Besides, the issue is not mere falsehood, but election fraud, allegedly on a very large, nationwide scale, including in federal elections. For those who believe that, there is no rational explanation for not dramatically increasing penalties for election fraud.

IMO, it is treason, inasmuch as it undermines, if not negates, the entire basis of our system, namely, the vote. However, whether or not it is treason, penalties for it should be very stiff and served in penitentiary.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #163
182. During the Bush years, the FBI, which was the agency one
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 03:50 PM by truedelphi
reported criminal election matters to, failed to call people back regarding the matters they were trying to report.

SO nothing was ever done to those who perpetuated the criminal behavior.

I tried for weeks after Nov 2008 to have a woman employed by the Marin County, California, Registrar of Voters be cited for a felony she committed against a group of voting activists, who had done nothing wrong but were punished by her.

We do need stiff penalties and some way of knowing there is someone to report to.

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
122. Agreed!!!!!!!!!!! Time should be less, waaaaaaaaaaaaay less, valuable than the unity of our nation.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #78
162. Good question, Mark. What do you suppose the answer is?
As for what happened when Boston went back to paper ballots, please see Reply 25.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
79. Diebold Republican Electing Machinez

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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
81. BradBlog all over that shit as usual! Huge K&R! Andy Stephenson would be proud!
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 03:24 AM by slay
you are THE BEST, Mr. Friedman, at exposing these HORRIBLE PROPRIETARY e-voting machines and the power those who control them have! Andy Stephenson would be proud!!!! These things can NOT be trusted. #OWS needs to add this to their demands - NO MORE OF THESE MACHINES!





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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. Thanks, Slay -- and I miss Andy...and John Gideon...every day! :-(
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
89. Can you say Banana Republic?
I knew you could.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
93. If the machines counting the robber barons' money were so inaccurate
they would have been destroyed and banned eons ago but hey it's only democracy and the consent of the people we're talking about here so it hardly matters,

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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
94. This is the stuff that scares me...
Rigged elections that put a Republican in the White House. Once was ENOUGH!!!
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oldhippydude Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #94
132. while im scared of these damn machines

im terrified of the voter suppression laws that the Rebublicans are pushing in many states... please remember part of the Florida Fiasco in 2000 was denial of voting rights based on fabricated "felonious registration"..

the point is that its like playing whack a mole with the ptb.. they have unlimited money and truley evil people, they have proven they will do anything to stay in power.. after all they have a paranoid fear of the people

its like Racheal Maddow says a couple of point here a couple of points there.. with an outmoded electoral collage,its easy enough to fix the election of POTUS
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #94
164. No reason to assume it was only once.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
perdita9 Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
98. Can Diebold be Charged with Treason?
After all, isn't a corporation a person?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #98
112. it should be treated that way... RICO
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
99. When you have all the money, you need supreme control.
TPTB own all of the politicians, or most of them, the few they don't own cannot change this system alone. Ensuring the vote should be a no-brainer if we are truly a democracy. The reality speaks loud & clear, we are NOT a democracy, the vote is up for grabs.

When something stinks this much, and begs for attention, isn't it incredibly telling that it has NOT been addressed? Occupy is not going away any time soon. We have major work ahead of us if we will ever truly be represented as we should be.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
100. My goodness, that's a surprise! Not.
It's nice that this one was looked at, but I no longer believe in our "election" process. Why is it Diebold can make receipts for ATM transactions but not voting. Answer: They can, they won't.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #100
165. Worse. They can; no government (federal, state, county, city, town) requires them to.
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 06:33 AM by No Elephants
The governments make the laws and they are also the consumers. They can specify what they will and will not buy.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
109. As long as we don't have 100% verifiable voting, we have no democracy...
And neither party is fighting for verifiable voting.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
111. the GOP and their Machines
listen up you corporate fascists.... we will take this country back, and you will pay for treason. That is what your agenda is... it is treason.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
116. All those people in uniform
believing they're protecting free and fair elections is a Constitutional Democracy are serving a demonic enterprise geared toward enslaving the 99% for the benefit of the 1%. What would happen if these well trained heavily armed servants found out they were being played?
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colsohlibgal Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
128. Change We Can Believe In - Voting.
We need to use paper ballots followed by strict custody control of those ballots. They then need to be counted publicly/transparently with multiple official witnesses; representatives of each candidate and an impartial observer with no dog in the hunt, maybe from Canada or whatever.

It's been proven over and over that machines/computers can be tampered with all along the trail including during voting. There have been some shady custody hanky panky as well.

I am 99% sure that the 2004 Bush/ Kerry race was flipped as well as the Demint/Cleland senate race.

We're supposed to be a shining example of democracy yet among other things our voting processes are like a 3rd world dictatorship.

Again, old Joe Stalin was an evil SOB but he wasn't dumb, he was dead on about the power being with the people who count the votes rather than with those voting.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
129. How can these jackasses manage to sell machines that don't have public domain software review?
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 02:05 PM by jimlup
That these jokers claim that their software is "proprietary" and not open for review is UNACCEPTABLE in a democracy. We should pass a law right now that all vote counting software must be open to public review. Further a law should be passed requiring a paper trail in ALL elections.

I mean what the hell Americans? Are you that busy sucking corporate CEO's?
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
131. It's a shame you opposed the Holt bill. Maybe our elections would be more secure than they now are.
No one believes our TN elections anymore. If the Holt bill had passed, we would not be using DREs in 93 of our 95 counties and we would have random manual audits in all 95 counties.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Corporatized elections are the enemy of democracy.
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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #131
175. Not a shame at all. Your elections would have been worse.
Just for the record, had the Holt bill passed (the version you were made at me about not supporting), you would STILL have been using DREs, since his bill failed to ban them and even supported their use.

Moreover, secret, privatized "proprietary source code would have been approved for use by federal legislation.
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #175
177. K & R
Regarding Congressman Rush Holt (D-NJ), Brad Friedman wrote:

"Holt once told me he'd be happy if everyone in the country voted on 100% unverifiable
touch-screen systems."
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
135. deposited a check into an ATM the other day....got a receipt
with a copy of the check....immediately thought that there is no reason the voting machines can't give paper copies of the vote..

the only reason is to keep the system corrupt.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
136. the thieves will use local RW radio to generate excuses and to somehow (always) blame dems
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
140. It's just a coincidence system errors always favor the Republicans
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 07:01 PM by Life Long Dem
Every state needs a system like Oregon.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #140
155. Which one is the Republican in this case? It looks like machine error to me
Looking through the reports, I can't see anything identifying either Winterton or Morrow as Republican or Democratic. They may both be non-partisan. But even if one or both are partisan, then it's difficult to say whom the 'system error' favoured. Winterton was declared the winner at first, but it was close enough for a recount - which hugely favoured Morrow; so huge that they said "there's a problem". The hand count confirmed the original count.

So the error was in favour of Morrow; but it only happened due to a recount, and was so big that they decided one of the counts must be wrong. It's hard to see that the error was introduced to favour Morrow.

It looks to me like a big hardware or software reliability problem, which is still extremely worrying - if it happened on a first count, there'd be no indication there was a problem and the incorrect result could be let through.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #140
166. If they always favor Republicans, wouldn't you expect Democrats to do something about that?
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
146. Okay, if a group of people want hand counts in public, how do we go about changing what is?
Can a city do this? A precinct? A ward? Our whole state uses different machines so it seems that a small group of citizens could change policy. Anyone who can guide me on where to find out how to work on this?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #146
167. You might start with your city hall or town hall. Also, check you state laws to see
what it takes for a citizen to get a law considered by your state legislature.

A lot of laws are online, but you can use law libraries at state and federal courthouses for free and I've found the librarians at the federal courthouse in Boston are very helpful.

Your local library should be able to help you get your hands on state laws, too.

But, public opinion is going to be critical. Check your local access cable channels and see if you can't get some info from someone who knows about pr in your area. Write letters to editors of papers, etc.

It's going to be a lot of work because it seems neither Party really wants to change the status quo.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
178. So basically this story amounted to nothing...
The original machine count winner was verified to be.....the winner.

"UPDATE 11/24/11: According to newspaper reports today, two hand-counts on Wednesday have now confirmed the accuracy of the original optical-scan count giving the election victory to Gary Winterton after all. The "recount" on the same op-scan systems seem to have been inaccurate, while the original count was accurate. We still don't know why, of course."
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BradBlog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #178
183. Well, no...
For a start, why did the op-scan machines used during the recount get it so incredibly wrong (under the presumption that they did)? And are you okay with these clearly flawed -- and easily manipulated -- machines determining winners and losers in elections where ballots aren't checked to make sure the op-scanners were correct (as will be the case in NH and most other states and almost every single election in the country next year)?!
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red dog 1 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
180. Paper Ballots?
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 12:35 AM by red dog 1
THE HISTORY OF VOTING MACHINES by Mary Bellis

PAPER BALLOTS

"The paper ballot system employs uniform official ballots of various stock weights on which the names of all candidates and issues are printed.
Voters record their choices, in private by marking the boxes next to the candidate or issue choice they select and drop the voted ballot in a sealed ballot box."

Read entire article...http://inventers.about.com/library/weekly/ae111300b.htm
(enter "paper ballots" in search bar)

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
184. lemme guess 181818?
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 10:56 PM by lonestarnot
999. or 666 snort.
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