Occupy Wall Street Favor Fading

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: Public Policy Polling

The Occupy Wall Street movement is not wearing well with voters across the country. Only 33% now say that they are supportive of its goals, compared to 45% who say they oppose them. That represents an 11 point shift in the wrong direction for the movement's support compared to a month ago when 35% of voters said they supported it and 36% were opposed. Most notably independents have gone from supporting Occupy Wall Street's goals 39/34, to opposing them 34/42.

Voters don't care for the Tea Party either, with 42% saying they support its goals to 45% opposed. But asked whether they have a higher opinion of the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street movement the Tea Party wins out 43-37, representing a flip from last month when Occupy Wall Street won out 40-37 on that question. Again the movement with independents is notable- from preferring Occupy Wall Street 43-34, to siding with the Tea Party 44-40.

I don't think the bad poll numbers for Occupy Wall Street reflect Americans being unconcerned with wealth inequality. Polling we did in some key swing states earlier this year found overwhelming support for raising taxes on people who make over $150,000 a year. In late September we found that 73% of voters supported the 'Buffett rule' with only 16% opposed. And in October we found that Senators resistant to raising taxes on those who make more than a million dollars a year could pay a price at the polls. I don't think any of that has changed- what the downturn in Occupy Wall Street's image suggests is that voters are seeing the movement as more about the 'Occupy' than the 'Wall Street.' The controversy over the protests is starting to drown out the actual message.

Voters continue to be very unhappy with the new majority in the House. Only 37% of voters think the Republicans have been an upgrade from when the Democrats were in charge, to 41% who believe they've been worse. Among independent voters, whose overwhelming support fueled the new GOP majorities, 26% think the Republicans have been an improvement to 37% who believe they've made things worse. That unhappiness extends to John Boehner's personal poll numbers as well- just 30% of voters approve of the job he's doing to 46% who disapprove. That -16 spread is a whole lot worse than the -6 we find for Obama's approval, but you don't see the Speaker being described as unpopular whenever you read about him the way you do the President.

Read more: http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html

---

[CountAllVotes]

1. there were 10,000 people at Spoul Hall last night

The crowds are just fading away alright. :sarcasm:

Don't "they" wish ...

:kick: & recommend.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. But how are voters perceiving those crowds?

[lebkuchen]

75. The voters are probably hoping for a Kim Kardasian run for Prez.

That's basically about all the voters know about.

[Freddie Stubbs]

82. Voters were persuaded to elect Obama in 2008, and Democratic Congresses in 2006 and 2008

[No Elephants]

102. Given a billion bucks and an obedient media, voters could be persuaded to almost anything.

[Islandlife]

137. Marketing strategies have become so sophisticated that the populace is...

Easily guided towards unintended ends. Is it the result of the evolution of capitalism or the "spoon fed mentality" of our society?

Anyone ever get a tattoo and regret getting it later? Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Anyone purchase a home and regret qualifying for it later?

[Canuckistanian]

93. Don't crowds vote?

Just asking.

[Matariki]

127. Doh! Those thousands and thousands of people ARE voters.

And the media is the media. They'll say whatever it is they're told to say. And right now they are being told to say that the Occupy Movement is over, is unpopular, yadda, yadda, yadda...

[wordpix]

112. looked up Sproul Hall on the internets, and you're right

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/15/MN7V1LVH5N.DTL

It's a good sign

[emulatorloo]

2. Interesting. See also

"As unpopular as the House Republicans are we find a tie in the generic Congressional ballot with 45% of voters favoring a Democratic candidate and 45% going for a Republican. That's because Congressional Democrats, with a 28/63 approval spread, are almost as unpopular as their GOP counterparts. They've succeeded in poisoning public opinion about the new Republican majority, but they haven't necessarily done anything to make voters see them as a palatable alternative. That will be the challenge for House Democrats in the next year."

[NRaleighLiberal]

3. Non-stop unfavorable treatment from the MSM will do that to a non-thinking public.

[stillwaiting]

33. We need to promote strong alternative sources of media to our friends and family.

Actively and aggressively.

We need to let our friends and family (that are NOT brainwashed right wing zealots but simply the average American) know that they must begin getting informed from independent media outlets.

As long as they continue to get their media from corporate sources those corporate sources will eventually discredit our movements with the masses. They are skilled propagandists.

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Perhaps OWS should adopt less objectionable methods to garner public favor

[No Elephants]

49. What is less objectionable than peaceful, democratic occupation?

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. How about holding a protest, and then going home

How about not turning a park in a public health hazard?

How about not keeping neighbors awake banging on drums?

[HughBeaumont]

74. Holding protests and going home did nothing at all during the 2000s.

The media could just pretend they never happened, and they did.

The only people causing havoc are the police beating people that aren't resisting them.

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. The trick is that you have to keep coming back

That what the tea party did. They became an effective force in politics, without camping out.

[HughBeaumont]

83. They became an effective force in politics because they were BACKED by corporate DOLLARS.

The Kochs provided busses and cash and many major media outlets (predominantly Faux, CNBC and CNN) salivated over their Reaganomic small gubmint message because they were both on the same page. Tea Party pols and backers like Michele Bachmann and Dick Armey got unfettered widespread coverage and publicity for their rallies.

You honestly think corporations will be privvy to a movement that highlights their very blatant corruption and unfairness as the source of pretty much all economic problems we face today?

You think millionaire politicians from either party who sip Supply-Side Punch like champagne support the 99%?

If decorum permitted it, they'd be right alongside Rudy 9iu11iani yelling "Occupy a JOB, ya bum!"

[Freddie Stubbs]

119. How would the Occupy movement be more effective if they had busses?

[No Elephants]

86. Oh, please. The Tea Party was planned since the 1980's by the Kochs and funded by them as well.

Dick Armey was their front. Fox their media arm, followed closely by the rest of the corporate media.

You simply cannot make a valid comparison between the Tea Party and the occupy movement, which media would not even mention for weeks.

[No Elephants]

85. Because it's an occupation, not a two hour protest like the Teabaggers.

I don't know what is going on where you are, but Boston has no drums and no public health hazard. In fact, no park. Only a median on a very busy street in downtown Boston.

Not that Menino doesn't send health inspectors over all the time, either. So far, they haven't been able to say it's unhealthy,

I have heard of drums only in NY and, from what I have heard, that is not a residential neighborhood. But sure, no drums in a residential neighborhood is something I could agree with, if indeed that is really a problem somewhere and not media bs.

Meanwhile, how about no police brutality and no violations of the First Amendment and no telling people they can pick up their property then destroying it with knives and axes before loading it onto garbage trucks.

I'd swap some drumming for that stuff plus a more economically equitable society any day. But wait, I am not supposed to have to swap anything for those things. They are my rights.

Guess we all have our different priorities.

[No Joe]

48. Amen

MSNBC has really disappointed on this one.

[No Elephants]

51. MSNBC is run by a Republican news organization that hired some

Democratic anchors--and fired those who MSNBC deemed insufficiently loyal to the "establishment," like Olbermanm and Uygur.

When Dummya was popular, MSNBC's programming was 100% Republican, from Imus in the Morning to Dennis Miller's evening talk show.

The one exception to their line up was Matthews, who, at that time, spoke very differently than he does now.

[mvd]

90. Exactly

Only time I ever see OWS in the mainstream media is when there's violence or controversy. No worries, polls go in flux and OWS will become more organized and bigger.

[krabigirl]

123. One thing great about not watching cable tv, is never seeing tv "news."

[Newest Reality]

4. This is a good time to laugh back!

Reminds me of a poll they did in The Matrix. They asked the pod people living in the digital illusion if they thought that Neo was the One.

[LeighAnn]

5. At least *THEY* won

Now civil unrest will go away and there won't be any more crime in places like New York City and Oakland. Living in a Police State is a small price to pay for that big victory.

[NorthCarolina]

6. Personally, I don't believe it. An attempt at misdirection perhaps? nt

[Imajika]

7. You know things have gone wrong...

"But asked whether they have a higher opinion of the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street movement the Tea Party wins out 43-37"

...when a movement manages to become even more unpopular than the Tea Party.

[No Elephants]

63. It's a ludicrous comparison to begin with.

[bhikkhu]

8. The media confuses the method with the goal

So watching enough coverage of "the method", which leans toward the most un-photogenic refugee-style tent settlements, naturally people would rather not have that.

[Ship of Fools]

13. As well as Faux Noise spewing out shit like countless rapes and a murder ...

[deutsey]

9. Go back to sleep, America...your government is in control. n/t

[MADem]

10. Only 33 percent are supportive of the goals because the goals are being perceived as

yelling at the police in the dark of the night as they take away tents.

OWS needs a paradigm shift. Same goals, different way of getting the word out.

I think they should take the money they have gotten (half a million in NYC, for example) and rent out space where they can coordinate strategy, arrange for virtual general assemblies, have a phone bank for info/fundraising, and a small TV studio where they can create/edit material for livestream and YOUTUBE.

Otherwise, despite the scorn and snickering of the echo chamber, this will be a failure, and it will cost Elizabeth Warren an election we badly need and she deserves.

For weeks now, I haven't heard shit about the shrinking middle class, jobs, economic parity, greedy Wall Street, usurious bankers, corrupt corporations in bed with Congress through their lobbyist pals, or any of that social justice stuff. All I hear about is kitchens and libraries and tents and "Ewwwww, those evil police!" Enough, already. Time to grow up and get down to business. Attention was paid as a consequence of the whole camping schtick because it was NEW. After a few weeks, it just looks like a poorly constructed favela.

And despite the protestations that "our" encampment is peaceful, there have been enough incidents in enough places to suggest that many of them are fraught with thievery and other public safety issues.

It IS a problem, the media is covering just the problems, that is all the media will cover, so OWS needs daytime demonstrations that are large and meaningful and have a focused purpose--and they need to go home at night. If they don't have a home, those that do need to offer up their couches, guest rooms and floors, or come to some arrangement with a church or other social service agency to rent space where people can sleep. This camping stuff has jumped the shark--it did that a couple of weeks ago.

Flame away.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

66. There are already enough third parties, IMO.

[concord]

84. my mistake, I meant a second party /nt

[No Elephants]

87. Snap!

But seriously, parties are out there. Not many people are supporting them.

I honestly don't know what forming another would do, except divide dissenters from the Big Two even further.

[BadtotheboneBob]

18. I happen to agree with you with the added element of...

Leadership! The movement needs a notable to step to the fore, stay there and lead. Not drop-in appearances. Day after day, in front of the cameras and city halls. Otherwise, all the occupiers seem to be is a anarchist mob...

[MADem]

23. I agree that leadership and media relations specialists are key.

There is a "leader" in Boston. I don't know who he is, but he is very well spoken, looks to be middle aged, wears one of those stupid goofy Peruvian hats (I can't blame him, the weather is sometimes raw and it likely keeps him warm), and he does the "stand ups" for the media, responding to specific points. When they have questions, it's usually that fellah answering the questions. I have seen him dozens of times on TV over the course of the last month or so.

He's articulate, pleasant, knows how to stick to the point, and I suspect he understands how to give the media a decent sound bite. As a consequence, the coverage in Boston is much more favorable. Also, the OWS in Boston works with the police and Dept. of Health, and doesn't put up with bullying, thievery, drug dealing, rambunctious behavior, etc. in their encampment. They, themselves, will call the cops if someone gets out of line. As a consequence, the Mayor has said that they can stay as long as they keep it peaceful and stay within the law.

[No Elephants]

88. Media and government are trying to tar the movement with the anarchist label, but it's a lie.

[BadtotheboneBob]

94. Maybe so, maybe so...

... but, that's how the movement appears when it lacks established leadership and a clear, coherent message with concrete answers to the issues that are protested.

[No Elephants]

97. It has a clear, coherent message: America's plutonomy/kleptocracy is grossly unfair.

As far as established leadership, I have two seemingly contradictory comments. (1) There is more leadership than you are led to believe. Hang out at an occupied site for a while and that will become evident. (2) they are trying to be democratic (a democracy, NOT a republic) which means one person, one vote, not a leader and followers.

I believe the participation by all is what may help keep them at sites all over the country, day after day, despite all that is happening to them. In any event, it works for them and they are the ones making all the sacrifices for the rest of the 99%. So, thank you is all I have to say about them.

As far as concrete answers, I disagree that it is the job of the occupiers to come up with those. Besides, lack of answers is not the issue. Lack of willingness by legislators has been the issue.

The people in charge of making laws know exactly what the concrete answers are because they know exactly how they got us into this mess. They ran to come up with concrete answers. They have staffs and libraries and lawyers and consultants. They know how to do what needs to be done. They just don't do it.

This movement has been remarkably successful in an amazingly short period of time, doing exactly what they are doing. In August, all the nation was talking about was budgets and deficits and how much more could be taken from the poor, elderly and disabled. They shifted our national conversation dramatically, doing just what they are doing.

Nonetheless, people keep wanting them to follow a model that got us into this mess in the first place.

[No Elephants]

116. Wha? The occupiers have been there 24/7. The media chose to ignore them the first couple

of weeks. And cover them mostly negatively since then.

They can't haul cameras from TV studios and force stations to broadcast.

[totodeinhere]

31. +1. Your ideas are excellent IMO. I hope that people from OWS read this. n/t

[MADem]

37. I am sometimes a bit reluctant to pop my head up on this issue.

I have gotten some major shit here for saying stuff like this, everything from the "concern troll" accusation to much worse.

However, I want to see Elizabeth Warren in the Senate, and every time there is a "camping confrontation" with police getting overtime in cities that are short of money to begin with, it does not help her.

Time to go back to basics while streamlining and professionalizing the organizational dynamic of the movement. Every protest should be focused; themed, if you will. A dull blade is only good for smearing butter on toast. A sharp blade can pierce the heart. No hearts will be reached with a bunch of complaining about libraries, medical tents, kitchens and crap like that. It's time for a more adult and serious approach, which might not be as much fun as the whole camping thing--but nothing comes easy.

I'd love to see OWS jump on the STOCK ACT passage effort. Why? Because Gillibrand et. al. have gotten twenty cosponsors in the Senate already, and Louise Slaughter has fired that thing up enough over the last five years to organize for it as well. Congress IS feeling heat about this issue. All that would be needed is focused demonstrations in front of district offices of reps, and I think we'd see movement. Also, since CBS was the one who broke the story, they, and their pals over at CNN, would be happy to air footage of the demonstrations--it's a natural fit.

OWS could then "own" the credit for tipping the scales towards passage of the act. It would be a huge "get" for them and further solidify the legitimacy of the movement.

[totodeinhere]

58. The right wing is scared of Elizabeth Warren. You can be sure that they will throw everything

they've got at her. And Brown will undoubtedly have unlimited funding. So this race will be a real focus for both sides, especially since obviously we now know that it is not unthinkable that a Republican can win a Senate seat in Mass.

[MADem]

69. It's already turned into Battle of the SuperPACS.

Right now I am watching a "Call Senator Brown-tell him to protect MEDICARE AND MEDICAID" ad that starts out with an old lady saying "I'll remember you when I slip and fall and can't get help..." or words to that effect.

The media has to love this season--so many political ads.

[No Elephants]

68. Reluctance? You hide it so well. I see you on so many "occupy" threads.

[MADem]

71. Ah, a little travelling music for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyEf1Lp7Byk

You don't have the Only Opinion in Town, though I think you might like that....

I care about this issue. I don't agree with your POV.

Get over it. That's what adults do.

[No Elephants]

89. LOL. All I did was comment on your alleged reluctance to post on OWS

because I see your posts on the topic in LBN quite often.

Sorry if that upsets you, but facts are facts.

I never said my opinion (or yours) was the only one in town, as if any intelligent person would every say anything of the kind to begin with.

So, you can put down that straw man.

I care about this issue, too and don't agree with your POV, either. And?

[MADem]

124. And all I did was note that you constantly follow me around reminding me that

you and I aren't on the same page with regard to tactics.

I heard you the first hundred times, you know. I may be old but I'm not deaf.

Enjoy the music. There is no "straw man" involved, here, sorry to tell you.

[No Elephants]

70. Strikes me OWS has done amazingly well so far by NOT heeding outside advice.

The movement is less than two months old and has already completely turned the conversation from September (deficits, cut, cut, cut) to the American economy is unfair to 99% of Americans.

And not only did the movement manage that with lightning speed (as these things go), they did it on no money, to speak of. (Yes, NY raised a lot, but that was NY. And the money was not spent on p.r., but on necessities and legal fees.)

People keep wanting the movement to meet their expectations, but, IMO, they could not be more mistaken. The movement has accomplished miracles.

[randome]

35. Spot on.

[randome]

36. Spot on.

[PETRUS]

47. I just read an article.

That talked about the 7 functions of a political movement. They are:

1. A confrontation function
2. A symbolic function
3. An educational function
4. A glue function
5. An umbrella function
6. An activation function
7. A model function

Zuccotti served #1 and #2 pretty well but isn't necessary (or even ideal) for most of the rest. Here's a link if you want to read the piece:

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/16/liberty_park_can_be_anywhere/singleton

[MADem]

57. Very interesting article-- "Movements wither when they don't evolve" indeed.

I would like to see some evolution beyond simply moving the tents elsewhere. I think a more professional approach will yield more professional results!

Thanks for that link.

[No Elephants]

91. Anyone can define a political movement any way they wish. Especially if writing is his or her day

job.

I could certainly write one proving not only that the occupy movement is a political movement, but that it has been an astoundingly successful one in an incredibly short period of time.

People tend to gather evidence and arguments for whatever they wish to prove.

[PETRUS]

103. Is that comment directed at me?

I honestly can't tell where you stand, so I'll just come clean for the sake of further conversation (should you want it):

I fully support OWS. I've donated money, food, clothes, and time - marched, slept at Zuccotti, got involved with working groups and the GAs. In my opinion, OWS has accomplished quite a bit.

The reason I posted the link to the article is that I think it's wise to collect ideas and information and consider a number of strategic and tactical alternatives (within limits - I'm definitely in the "no violence" camp, for example).

Anyway, I know that doesn't constitute a response to your post. Just throwing it out there in case you want to talk more.

[No Elephants]

109. Yes, my post was a reply to your post, though, obviously, anyone else who reads the thread

will see it.

I have a couple of virtues, but subtlety is not one of them. I fully support OWS. I support Occupy D.C. (October 6, 2011) before I heard of OWS, but OWS started first and sort of subsumed Occupy D.C.

I don't think any of the occupiers have advocated violence, so your limit certainly is not a point of disagreement with me. If they do advocate it, I'd have to ponder. I'm not sure where I'd go. Ditto on deliberate damage to property.

I am more than fine with civil disobedience, though.

[MadrasT]

133. Actually

We are 100% in agreement. :hi:

Occupy Philadelphia has become a sadly ineffective joke. Every bit of energy is wrapped up in issues around their "encampment".

I'm glad they are having fun, but their "protests" are just silly.

It's like there aren't any grown-ups involved.

:shrug:

[Bragi]

138. Something to consider...

I think we need to distinguish between "Occupy" as a tactic, and the "99%" movement for equality and justice.

I don't think it was the "Occupy" tactic that really brought in the support, though it did get attention initially.

rather, I think people supported the OWS tactic initially because of its emphasis on "we are the 99%" for economic inequality and an end to economic criminality and political cronyism.

At this point, I think the Occupy tactic has run its course, and the 99% movement needs to, and will, move on to new tactics.

[davidthegnome]

11. I stopped trusting polls

A long time ago. A sampling of a majority is never truly a majority. These percentages are based only on the number of people they polled - and in my experience, those taking the polls are often biased in one way or another. Usually there's an agenda involved... and even when there isn't, a sampling of a majority is not a majority.

[Imajika]

14. Polling is actually pretty accurate...

And PPP does excellent work and is a Democratic leaning firm.

Sorry, but the poll is probably right on the mark.

Like or not, what folks are seeing in the news is clashes with the police - and for the most part people just don't like that.

[No Elephants]

92. It depends upon the poll and how the results are reported. Also, polls are as much a way of

shaping opinion as they are a means of accurately reflecting it.

I may love Politician X, but reading every week that a majority of people polled, especially if they are polling Democrats, think Politician X is crooked is likely to lower my opinion of Politician X.

Besides, polls measure the tip of the iceberg, as it were. People may just as well be asked, "Are you buying the view of the OWS movement that corporate media has been trying so hard to sell you?"

[julian09]

44. They didn't sample OWS participants

They need to transform movement to move public opinion not by just occupying a spot in NY or LA but by standing up for the fairness issues, jobs, war issues.
They have to stand against those who sell themselves to corporations instead of the people and name them regardless of party. They can't let themselves be defined by FOX, who they started to take on in the beginning; by shouting FOX LIES, FOX LIES at some of their rallies. Fox has a big megaphone in Fox News, Wall Street Journal, New York Post, ALL IN NEW YORK CITY, where the OWS movement originated. If they can redefine OWS in NY they can redefine OWS anywhere.
They have the worlds and country's attention and must use their fight for the 99% to expose the 1% who own the congress and the lives of every voter, through an unrepresentative congress that votes for corporations instead of voters. Free speech for corporations, rationed speech for the people, politic ans who send in overwhelming force on peaceful protests, mercenaries who hide identities, suppress the press coverage by denying freedom of the press.
100% of republicans are against raising taxes on very rich, to make sure that, congress will have to cut social safety net. Start there, TP is only concerned with debt, not raising revenue to offset tha debt.

[zbdent]

12. Imagine the effect on the world had OWS had the same favorable media spotlights that

the TEA Party got (once the Republican Party was taken over by them) after all the time that the TEA Party got to "develop" (from a well-funded corporate "grass-roots movement")

[Uncle Joe]

19. That wasn't possible because OWS doesn't De Facto support corporate supremacy.

The same can't be said for the Tea Party nor the vast majority of the corporate media.

[MADem]

20. I don't know a single soul who thinks the tea party is "favorable."

Most people I know think they are crazy, spitting mad flakes. A few acquaintances (the same ones who say things like "Well, that Ron Paul makes sense...." and aren't fans of unemployment insurance until they lose their jobs) will say they like a plank or two on their platform, but overall? They think they are batshit crazy and racist.

Granted, I live in a left-leaning region, so that clearly affects my reporting, but even the coverage of them up here (for example, when Palin went on that nutty bus tour and managed to gather a few flag-shirt wearing jerks with dick-dos on the Common) the coverage had a "WTF?" quality about it.

Maybe they get a real "Gee, ain't they SWELL" in other parts of the country, but not up my way.

[No Elephants]

117. IOW, you disagree with the OP insofar as it says that the Tea Party polls favorably, but agree with

the OP insofar as it says the OWS polls unfavorably.

[MADem]

126. No.

"Favor fading" is not the same as "unfavorably."

[frylock]

16. fortunately, OWS isn't running for office..

so i would imagine the movement doesn't give a shit about perceived favorability.

[EFerrari]

25. Summary the status quo doesn't like #OWS.

[No Elephants]

100. I admire your ability to put so much into one or two lines. Respect!

[MADem]

26. Elizabeth Warren is--and Karl Rove is beating her over the head with "OWS."

As a consequence "I" give a shit about perceived favorability.

If EW loses this election because of continued "Let's fight with the police" OWS coverage, I will be very unhappy, and I won't be alone.

OWS needs to grow up and move on to the next level. The camping thing is OVER. It got them the attention, now they need to move forward with something more sophisticated. They have plenty of money, time to spend it on shit that matters, not tarps and socks.

[frylock]

39. yes, they should just donate money to candidates and vote..

that works so well. nice to see you laying the groundwork to scapegoat them in the event that warren loses.

[MADem]

46. Way to NOT READ what I wrote. Pat yourself on the back, now!

Try it sometime, go on--read the full thread. Open your eyes.

Despite your best efforts to remain snug in your cocoon, you may actually come to understand an alternate POV.

It won't be scapegoating--apparently you haven't been paying attention to the Warren race.

Here is a link to edify you--peruse it, watch the video and stop making nonsensical assertions:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/karl-rove-attacks-elizabeth-warren-baseball


This IS a problem, and ignoring it while snarking at me like it's MY fault isn't going to change that.

[frylock]

52. If EW loses this election because of continued "Let's fight with the police" OWS coverage

[MADem]

53. You didn't watch the video, OBVIOUSLY.

I get to see that fucking thing ten to twenty times a day on television.

[golddigger]

54. I get to see that fucking thing ten to twenty times a day on TV

[MADem]

55. You too?

Or are you just repeating what I said?

It's a very disturbing and lie-laden commercial. It has visceral effect, and it is entirely unhelpful.

[frylock]

56. it's encumbant upon warren to distance herself from that message..

OWS is not going away because you're afraid this will hinder warren's chance at getting elected.

[MADem]

59. She's trying--and I do not want OWS to "go away."

So please stop ascribing false assertions to me. Again--try reading what I actually say without coloring it with your bias.

I want them to EVOLVE, and get back to the messages of economic parity, social justice, Wall Street/banker corruption, the shrinking middle class, jobs, Congressional malfeasance, lobbyist influence...all the stuff that made them so "neat" in the first place.

I am sick of this "tent and police sideshow." It's been going on for WEEKS, now. I'm not hearing a thing about the topics I listed above.

The "Scream at cops, cops poke/arrest/teargas" scenarios (lather, rinse, repeat, and repeat, and repeat) are all the coverage they are getting, and it's all they will get if they keep fighting over the "Right To Camp Out." They need to take the next step. They have a shitload of money, and they need to spend it sensibly on stuff that will advance the OWS agenda, not on socks and tarps.

[frylock]

64. so provide some suggestions for this EVOLUTION

[MADem]

72. You double posted and I replied below. nt

[frylock]

65. so provide some suggestions for this EVOLUTION

[MADem]

67. I did. Look upthread. Edit to provide the link to the post, to make it easy for you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5061764&mesg_id=5061795

[Pirate Smile]

17. Focus on income inequality. Don't turn the focus to cops or the mayors or right to camp out or

protest or DHS or ...

When you take the focus off of income inequality, which almost everyone agrees is a real problem, it hurts the movement.

The focus should not be whether you can sleep in the park in a tent or sleeping bag. That is a loser.

[MADem]

28. +1. nt

[certainot]

21. rat wing radio will keep kicking internet ass as long as it is ignored

imagine if 1000 coordinated radio stations AREN'T getting a free speech free ride to lie about OWS all day long. limbaugh's main station is WABC, which is near Penn Station, NYC.

this is a direct result of left giving team limbaugh and 1000 radio stations a free speech free ride, and it might take a while but it will sear the brains of many potential supporters across the country with images of pee stained commie hippies, whores, pedophiles, and drug dealers.

ignoring wall street/GOP's giant coordinated talk radio megaphone, that dominates political messaging in most states, should go down as the biggest political blunder in history considering the time we've lost dealing with climate change.

just turn on the local blowhard in the morning or afternoon or evening, the ones on either side of limbaugh and hannity and beck, and they will all be doing the same hit jobs on OWS as the big nationals do - all fucking day long and some on the weekends.

those radio stations, where appropriately located, need to be included in protests because they are GOP/wall street PR headquarters. their local sponsors need to be shamed and universities need to be pressured to honor their mission statements and pull their sports from those stations. when that starts happening the opposition to OWS objectives will take a giant hit. talk radio has been wall street's best weapon against democracy the last 20 years, since reagan killed the fairness doctrine.

[Cowpunk]

95. Totally Agree. NT

People on the coasts don't really have an idea how pervasive the influence of right wing radio is in the flyover states.

[golddigger]

22. White House propaganda poll.

[EFerrari]

27. No kidding. This isn't a news piece and shouldn't be in LBN.

[AlbertCat]

24. It's a "flavor"?

An 11 point shift...with independents.

Big deal. Independents apparently can't decide what socks to put on in the morning.

It must be remembered that most Americans are more concerned with "Dancing with the Stars" than OWS. And now that it's getting ugly, they'd just as soon go back to their rose colored world where teenagers don't have sex, it's the best thing ever that they can listen to the music they want anywhere they go, and a gun is all you need to be free.

[MADem]

30. Independents decide elections in MASSACHUSETTS.

And Elizabeth Warren is running for the Senate in MASSACHUSETTS, against a guy who was elected by INDEPENDENTS.

Dismiss this at your peril.

[totodeinhere]

29. I think I'm going to declare a moratorium on looking at any polls between now and the election.

These polls just jerk us around too much. One poll says one thing and another says something else. I wouldn't be surprised if we soon get another poll saying that support for OWS has increased. I'm just sick of it. Enough polls for me. I will work for Democratic candidates and progressive ideals as hard as I can, ignore the polls, and then see what happens in November.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. But Democrat candidates will be keeping and eye on polls

[totodeinhere]

34. Sure, and so will the GOP candidates. I wasn't faulting you for posting this and I expect

that we will continue to see a multitude of polls posted at DU. I was just expressing my frustration.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpartanDem]

38. This is move about actions, not camping

I think occupy movement too focused keeping the parks. The focus should be on occupying bank lobbies and forclosed homes not fighting police over camping park.

[No Elephants]

104. Parks are public property. Bank lobbies and foreclosed homes are not.

People have a right to be on public property and many of them have permits on top of that. Occuping a bank lobby or a foreclosed home can get you legitimately arrested for criminal trespass.

Occcupying is not camping, so please don't trivialize it that way. And there are no Halliburton built "green zone" mansions for These people are fighting elements, overcrowding, lack of bathrooms, police brutality and god all for people like you and me.

[wordpix]

113. Zucotti Park is a public park owned privately. Don't know how that happened

[boppers]

115. It's a program to expand public space with private land investments.

Basically, if a private company wants to do something that violates zoning, the city will allow it *if* the private company does something for the public.

With Zucotti Park (Formerly Liberty Plaza Park), Pittsburg Steel wanted to make a building taller than zoning laws would allow. In order for the zoning variance to get passed, they had to create a park.... thus, it's not a public park, it's a "privately owned public space".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuccotti_Park
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/priv/priv.shtml

[No Elephants]

118. It;'s a privately owned park, but for the use of the public.

Don't know if it happened in this case, but sometimes cities will make deals with developers, as in

"Okay, you don't have to build a parking garage with two spaces for each dwelling unit, PROVIDED, you include six units of low income housing and dedicate some space to a park for use of the general public--no, no, we don't want to own the park. We want YOU to maintain it and pay real estate taxes on it."

[Dover]

40. Revolutions are not about poll numbers.

There is no political solution...the system is broken, corrupted.
OWS is not a political party and does not rely on polls to determine their effectiveness or
popularity. They didn't need a poll to start this revolution. We/they are self-determing.
Trust that.

[lunatica]

41. Unrec for pushing propaganda

[Javaman]

42. Public Policy Polling...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Policy_Polling

Not all of the polls by Public Policy Polling have been accurate; the company has had its share of inaccurate results. Among the most notable of its mispredictions were that of the 2008 Democratic presidential primary in Pennsylvania<16> (in which it predicted an Obama victory; Clinton ultimately won by 9-10%), and that in the 2009 special election in New York's 23rd Congressional District.<17> In New York, the official Republican candidate dropped out of the race and endorsed the Democratic candidate while PPP was in the field interviewing voters. PPP's results showed the conservative candidate with a large lead; in the end, the Democrat won with a 2.3% lead.

[totodeinhere]

61. No poll is accurate all the time. But plenty of people at DU gleefully post other polls

that can be just as inaccurate when the results of those polls are something that they like. Then when an unfavorable poll comes out they turn right around and question the accuracy of that poll.

[wordpix]

114. the proprietor, Dean Debnam, is a Dem

[golddigger]

50. Well I guess they should just shut up and pack their shit and go home.

So they don't make Obama and Warren look bad. Added Warren because I guess Rove is beating her over the head with it according to some on here.

[MADem]

60. Why don't you try looking at the video of the commercial, and then tell us it's a love note? nt

[No Elephants]

105. OMG, Republicans made an unflattering commercial about Warren. Disband the movement.

[MADem]

125. -1. Contextual dishonesty on your part. nt

[laureloak]

62. Question: Am I in or out of the Matrix???

[moondust]

76. Wouldn't surprise me if true.

OWS is probably too abstract and democratic for the average sound-byte conditioned, heavily propagandized, black-and-white duopolized, visually oriented, macho authoritarian-loving, simple-minded American that has repeatedly voted for the corporate puppets that created the fucking mess that OWS is protesting.

:eyes:

[Zorra]

77. Poll could be biased due to obvious possible ulterior propaganda motives.

Why should we trust any poll that stems from a 1% CEO's company that might very obviously have a strong interest in manipulating public opinion against OWS and in the interests of the 1%?

Dean Debnam is CEO of Workplace Options, a leading global provider of work-life programs and employee benefits headquartered in Raleigh, N.C., that serves more than 32 million employees in over 20,000 organizations across 170 countries.

Public Policy Polling (PPP)...

...is an American Democratic Party-affiliated polling firm based in Raleigh, North Carolina.<1><2><3> PPP was founded in 2001 by businessman and Democratic pollster Dean Debnam, the firm's current president and chief executive officer.<1><4> The company's surveys use Interactive Voice Response (IVR), an automated questionnaire used by other polling firms such as SurveyUSA and Rasmussen Reports.<5>

PPP's polls have been described as very accurate in the 2008 U.S. presidential election by The Wall Street Journal<5> and Mark Blumenthal, senior polling editor of the Huffington Post and the founding editor of Pollster.com,<6> among others. Although being affiliated with the Democratic Party, PPP has not exhibited a Democratic bias in its polling results; according to Nate Silver of Fivethirtyeight.com, PPP actually had a small pro-Republican bias in its 2010 polling results.

Errors

Not all of the polls by Public Policy Polling have been accurate; the company has had its share of inaccurate results. Among the most notable of its mispredictions were that of the 2008 Democratic presidential primary in Pennsylvania<16> (in which it predicted an Obama victory; Clinton ultimately won by 9-10%), and that in the 2009 special election in New York's 23rd Congressional District.<17> In New York, the official Republican candidate dropped out of the race and endorsed the Democratic candidate while PPP was in the field interviewing voters. PPP's results showed the conservative candidate with a large lead; in the end, the Democrat won with a 2.3% lead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Policy_Polling

[SoapBox]

78. This is ok...and it goes with what I've been hoping for...and that is that the movement will evolve.

I want to see Occupy, get SO organized, it can endorse candidates.

NOTHING is going to happen here in America (and the world) until we have the political power to do it.

They system now, from the very lowest county position to Congress, is rotten to the core with
GOPBaggers/T.Haters and DINO's. Time to change that!

[santamargarita]

96. Bullshit propaganda!

[golddigger]

99. Damn straight it is!

Solidarity
Occupy Portland

[Douglas Carpenter]

98. seeking REAL political change is about changing the range of discussion. not following the fickle

fluctuations of polls and popularity contest as if we were competing on American Idol. Imagine if the early civil rights in Montgomery, Alabama decided to cancel their plans for boycotts and demonstrations because some polling firm advised them how unpopular they were in Alabama. Imagine if the early anti-war movement decided there was no point pushing on because the polls showed Americans overwhelmingly supporting the war in Viet Nam. Imagine if the early gay rights movement in say 1970 decided to cancel their marches and demonstrations because polling showed the overwhelming majority of the public considered them either criminals or mentally ill.

Mass actions are about changing the discussion and making the debate totally different not ratcheting up favorable polling numbers. This is the real world of politics that can actually effect real change - not the make believe world where we vote for the latest slick sounding politicians with the latest slick sounding sound bites and real change never actually happens.

[unionworks]

101. Scott Olsen

...is fighting to regain the ability to speak, as a result of trying to exercise his first amendment rights. Fuck a poll, and fuck the reelection chances of politicians who stand by silently or even order police to attack unarmed demonstrators. The nerve of those people, making us look bad by pointing out that literally we are tweedle dee and tweedle dum! :grr: :sarcasm:

[No Elephants]

106. To the occupiers: THANK YOU.

[No Elephants]

107. Meanwhile, elsewhere on DU, "NY Voters Back Protestors."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5061836

I bet they are backed in Boston, Oakland, etc. as well.

[Kingofalldems]

108. Unrec for continuous onslaught of anti OWS propaganda

[Freddie Stubbs]

122. Thank you for kicking the post to the top

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

120. That comment is beautifully Herman Cainesque. nt

[No Elephants]

129. LOL. Cain should be deleted from those deemed eligible to be POTUS, too.

Sorry I missed the post. I hate it when that happens!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

131. Fortunately it's no longer with us. nt

[and-justice-for-all]

121. I dont believe it...at all.

"Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street movement the Tea Party wins out 43-37" bullshit.

[6000eliot]

128. Horseshit.

[Modern_Matthew]

130. Why are you spreading such garbage? nt

[Desertrose]

132. So...this is the latest attempt to stop OWS?

Not really very clever.

[JackRiddler]

134. In judging right and wrong I always consult the opinion polls first.

[Freddie Stubbs]

135. So do many politicians, including perhaps President Obama

[JackRiddler]

136. Lack of ironic sense and apologetics for right-wing policies seem to go together.

:eyes: