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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 08:12 AM
Original message
Stung by the President on Air Quality, Environmentalists Weigh Their Options
Source: New York Times

In late August, the State Department gave a crucial go-ahead on a controversial pipeline to bring tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf Coast. Then on Friday, leading into the holiday weekend, the Obama administration announced without warning that it was walking away from stricter ozone pollution standards that it had been promising for three years and instead sticking with Bush-era standards.

John D. Walke, clean air director of the Natural Resources Defense Council, an advocacy group based in New York, likened the ozone decision to a bomb being dropped.

Mr. Walke and representatives of other environmental groups saw the presidents actions as brazen political sellouts to business interests and the Republican Party, which regards environmental regulations as job killers and a brick wall to economic recovery.

The question for environmentalists became, what to do next?



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/science/earth/04air.h...



what next, indeed. Our options seem sadly limited.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Our choice is stall and (approximately) hold position, or dive rapidly into the abyss.
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 08:36 AM by MH1
It's a sucky choice but those are the only 2 options.

I think the ozone ruling decision was based on a desperate focus on jobs. Anything that might cost jobs or impede job growth, is not going to have a chance right now.

This can all be laid at the feet of the republicans' strategy to cripple the economy so that Obama won't be re-elected. I truly believe if the economy had been allowed to recover, Obama would have made a different decision here. (Doesn't mean that I think his logic is sound, just that I think that's what it is.)

Also, I truly believe if you replaced enough republicans, starting with the most batshit crazy teabaggers and working your way to the center, just after attaining a majority of anti-war or quasi-anti-war dems, you'd see military spending cut, and the US out of Afghanistan a whole lot faster than we will in the current scenario.

Obama is behaving as if he believes in the 3 branch model of government and that those who are seated in Congress have been legitimately elected to represent their constituents; and that as a President of ALL the country (not just Democrats) he has to work across parties to try to achieve consensus. His model may be deeply naive and flawed, but I would still rather have that than the wrecking-ball disaster we'll get if a republican gets elected.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. The big lie is
relaxing or reconsidering regulations is actually a job killer. With stricter regulations plants have to be upgraded; new equipment purchased and installed. Saving/improving the environment is job creation because we have spent so many years trashing it. The years we need to use to clean/repair it will create jobs.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. true but you can't get funding approved for creating jobs cleaning / repairing the environment
Obama's last faint hope (and ours, and the environment's, by the way) is that private industry starts creating some jobs between now and when people make their decision for the 2012 election.

And yes, if you raise the cost of production without subsidizing the increased cost (which Obama cannot do), the cost will be passed on to consumers, and depending where you are on the price curve, may result in reducing demand. If demand is reduced then the jobs created to meet the regulation would be offset by jobs lost due to lack of demand. It is not ALWAYS true that increased regulation kills jobs. But it is POSSIBLE that increased regulation, that increases the cost of non-necessities, in a time of recession, would cost jobs.

Obama probably feels he cannot afford even the possibility. And if you read the explanation for the decision, it's based partly on the fact that ozone levels have already somewhat decreased without the new regulation. Not enough, I'm sure - all I need to know is that various enviro orgs that I trust are royally pissed off about this. So I don't necessarily agree with his decision. I'm just trying to understand the thinking behind it.

We're here because the Left (overall, media and everything else) has failed to convince people of facts, and allowed several Big Lies to sway the public into worrying about the deficit instead of creating demand and closing actual job drains (such as incentives for offshoring).

There is no doubt in my mind that at least 90% of what the most vocal 'left' posters at DU want, would be signed into law by Obama if the bills were passed by house and senate and landed on his desk. I can't think of one thing that would be voted up by a majority here, that would be vetoed by Obama, unless perhaps it were blatantly unconstitutional or physically impossible (such as overnight withdrawal of all troops from Afghanistan).

Obama may or may not personally believe the Big Lie. It doesn't matter. What matters is what gets to his desk. He knows by now that Keynesian job creating bills will NOT get to his desk (and that is not HIS failure, by the way). Therefore, he has to do whatever he can that he thinks might salvage the economy. And that is almost guaranteed to be bad for the environment. I don't like it, but the blame belongs on a far wider group than one person.



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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. Thanks for addressing this in a serious way.
I have one main concern about what you posted: You say that "Obama probably feels he cannot afford even the possibility" of a loss of jobs if the new standards are put into place. But there is also the possibility of fewer jobs if the standards are not put into place. Requiring business to get up to speed environmentally itself produces jobs related to doing so, and health problems due to smog drains money and so can reduce demand. The costs are certain: more smog related health problems. The benefits in terms of jobs are completely speculative.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. Obama just showed us how anti-environment and how pro-corporate he is -- over again!!
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 02:27 PM by defendandprotect
PLUS -- even more dangerously -- he's got nuke industry slated for a new generation

of nuclear reactors in US!

Private industry won't create jobs -- they're looking for government -- and Obama -- to

do what he did last time -- run taxpayer $$$$$$$$$$$ thru corps to create jobs.


Americans want CEO salaries reduced -- that would pay for a lot of jobs!


Corporations are a ZERO in future considerations -- in fact, they are a hindrance to our

futures and our survival --

The greatest threat to us is Global Warming and that was created by corporations and their

pollution.

The only "thinking" behind Obama's decision making is corporate welfare --

Talking about what Obama can and could do right now depends largely on IGNORING WHAT HE

DID WHEN HE HAD A MANDATE AND TOTAL CONTROL OF CONGRESS --

What we saw was farce as he threw away his mandate -- and worked to resurrect the GOP

from the ashes!

The mask is off -- Obama is over -- !!





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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. + 1. n/t
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #54
84. Sad, but oh too true.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Congress have been legitimately elected to represent their constituents
This is no longer a given....

The one with the most money wins now! Even the Supremes know this is true. Five of them helped make it standard operation procedure.
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Actually the decision COST JOBS!
If the ozone limits were imposed it would have required spending by companies on equipment to upgrade their plants which would have created manufacture and construction jobs.

This was a cave pure and simple.
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. puh-leeze!
Obama is indefensible at this point - stop with the cwwwaaaazzzzyyy excuses
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. I think you give the President too much credit.
I only wish he were only 'deeply naive and flawed'.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
56. Obama was elected based on a deceptive campaign of lies ....
the mask is off -- Obama is over -- !!
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
74. Raise tax revenue and invest in infrastructure jobs. No costs to the American deficit. Congress is
derelict in its duty to collect revenue by levying compulsory
tax revenue to pay for the people's business.  All the rest
is camouflage.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. What next? Here is "what next":
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/09/03/311680/a-clima...

A Climate Movement Is Born: Ozone Decision Spikes Total Arrests to 1,252 at White House Pipeline Protest

by Jamie Henn, TarSandsAction.org

WASHINGTON The largest environmental civil disobedience in decades concluded at the White House this morning with organizers pledging to escalate a nationwide campaign to push President Obama to deny the permit for a new tar sands oil pipeline.

Given yesterdays baffling cave on ozone standards, the need for a fighting environmental movement has never been more clear, said Bill McKibben, who spearheaded the protest. That movement is being born right here in front of the White House and reverberating around the country.

<snip>

McKibben also announced at the protest that the movement will continue organizing, with a Phase Two announcement within 48 hours. Click here to be the first to know details when theyre announced: www.tarsandsaction.org/next-steps.

Protest organizers are already planning ways to capitalize on the surge of energy the sit-in has created. In a number of cities, people have already begun to visit Obama for America offices to tell the campaign they will volunteer and donate only after President Obama stands up to Big Oil and denies the Keystone XL permit. Along the pipeline route, groups are preparing to drive turnout to State Department hearings later this month. Thousands are expected to descend on Washington, DC for the final hearing on October 7.

<snip>

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AwareOne Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
28. The pipeline will be approved no matter what the people want
Obama won't shut it down an be labeled a "job killer" by the pukes. The thing that kills me is, Republicans will never give him credit for those jobs and the left will despise him even more for it, its a lose lose situation for him, once again.
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salib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Seriously?
"Obama won't shut it down an be labeled a "job killer" by the pukes." and "Republicans will never give him credit for those jobs". So exactly whom is he appealing to here?

The can be only two likely answers:

1. He and his staff are stupid enough to believe that this (as you say) "lose lose" situation is the best option.

2. He IS appealing to his based. I.e., those who will contribute the majority of that billion dollars people claim he needs. Can anyone spell cock, er coke, er koch?

And even if it is (1.), how morally bankrupt can one be to simply do the worst in most situations on the (truly audacious) hope that "his team" will be re-elected? He was not elected to get elected again. Is is morally inexcusable.

I always thought I knew what was meant by "the audacity of hope." Now, I think I really understand. The audacious thing is claiming a morally important position, and then be audacious enough to throw that all away on a hope of some other improvement.

Enough.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. Worse than bargaining away our freedom is bargaining away NATURE ... !! It's suicidal..!!
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salib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. A good start, indeed.
Now, let's carry it forward. Who knows where it will ultimately lead. That is the beauty (and scariness) of a liberal democratic movement (and society).

In the meantime, we need to get serious. We need to make this happen. No one in office either will or can make anything truly positive happen. Period. It is up to us.

And yes, it means true sacrifice. We are the problem as much as the chance of a solution.

If you are sitting there reading this (just as I am sitting here typing it), then enough for you and for me. Those who want to return us to per-enlightenment serfdom are relentless and are putting everything on the line. We outnumber them in greater fashion than they out earn us.

Is it not "yes we can." It is "we must."

Which side are you one? Then show it in everything you do.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. Environmental movement is sanity -- public has to understand suicidal nature of Obama's decision..!!
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Yon_Yonson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. The prez is a fake democratic and good foot soldier for corporate amerika
:wtf:
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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. SignOn.org
On-line petition site started by MoveOn.org.

Maybe a petition to the White House signed by a million+ people would get their attention.
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. only a petition signed by a million
millionaires would attact O's attention
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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. It's still worth a try.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. It's all we have.
Short of mass protests.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Did I hear the words mass protests??
Yes, it's the only thing we have remaining to fight the corporate control of our government.

Here are 2. Yes, 2. If you are serious about your concern for the planet and democracy, you will be at one of them.

1. The prolonged occupation of Washington DC this October http://october2011.org/welcome

"I pledge that if any U.S. troops, contractors, or mercenaries remain in Afghanistan on Thursday, October 6, 2011, as that occupation goes into its 11th year, I will commit to being in Freedom Plaza in Washington, D.C., with others on that day or the days immediately following, for as long as I can, with the intention of making it our Tahrir Square, Cairo, our Madison, Wisconsin, where we will NONVIOLENTLY resist the corporate machine by occupying Freedom Plaza to demand that America's resources be invested in human needs and environmental protection instead of war and exploitation. We can do this together. We will be the beginning."

2. AND the prolonged occupation of Wall Street in New York this month, in September. http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywal...

"On September 17, we want to see 20,000 people flood into lower Manhattan, set up tents, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months. Once there, we shall incessantly repeat one simple demand in a plurality of voices.

Tahrir succeeded in large part because the people of Egypt made a straightforward ultimatum that Mubarak must go over and over again until they won. Following this model, what is our equally uncomplicated demand?"

If you are serious and not just complaining to hear yourself talk, you will be there.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. I am sick.
I will not be there. I cannot be there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
59. +1000% --
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. Over the last 50 years
more jobs were created under Democratic Presidents when there were stronger regulations and more robust enforcement than under the "free market" Republicans.
Regulations DO NOT cost jobs!
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. try something not tried before, and sorely lacking, take env action to RW radio stations that are
appropriately located.

they are the power centers of the republican party and global warming denial and during 20 years of constant global warming denial and obstruction on all environmental legislation have faced NO organized opposition. they are largely responsible for enabling the obstruction on global warming. as lead talking points reader for the chamber of commerce and the heritage foundation limbaugh makes it impossible for GOP compromise or any national rational discussion of environmental issues. RW talk radio more than any single medium is responsible for getting us into this disaster and strengthening big businesses position against the admin.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. Why don't you organize something, then?
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
94. i'm a lousy speaker and organizer and the left's orgs are wasting volunteer time and money by not
time by ignoring talk radio.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
60. We should at the least be pushing government to restore Fairness in Broadcasting Act ...
it's still there -- GOP is trying to get it folded -- but it can be put

into practice --

I'm sure Obama will be rushing to do that -- and Dem Party as well!!!



:evilgrin: -- sadly!!

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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-11 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #60
95. i don't think the planet can wait for that. i say picket stations, shame local sponsors, and for
fuck's sake get our universities to stop endorsing rw radio and its racism and global warming denial with their sports broadcasts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SavWriter Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
12. How long
How long will we let the corporations poison us so they can keep raking in record profits?
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
13. but, gee, just think how bad things would get with a pres perry!
:rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Bad mistake
One you'll have lots of time to regret.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. If you think President Perry is a hoot
President Perry with a republican House and Senate will be a real gut buster.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. yawn.
really, you're going to have to do better than that....
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. to start with
dont vote for either Republican candidate for president: Obama or the other guy
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. Certainly,
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 11:07 AM by ProSense
there are things to consider, including the President's record.

From the OP article:

<...>

In fact, it is a lesson that some environmental groups have already learned, and they are preparing to act accordingly.

I think that two-plus years into Obamas presidency is more than enough time for him to have established a clear weak record, said Kiern Suckling, executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity, which has been battling the president on endangered species.

The environmental movement needs to keep piling the pressure on and realizing playing nicey-nice wont work, Mr. Suckling said, adding that more public actions and lawsuits are the way to get Mr. Obamas attention.

<...>

Battles won: LANDMARK AGREEMENT MOVES 757 SPECIES TOWARD FEDERAL PROTECTION

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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. and please tell us exactly what difference that "historic victory" will make when the earth melts?
what possible difference will it make that these species were added to the endangered list when the policies this Admin is enabling are likely to result in an ecosystem so damaged maybe even the crocs - survivors of + 100 million years - won't survive? When we are killing the oceans - (source, if i remember aright, of something like 2/3 of the oxygen we breath). What difference?

It is not that the "list" of accomplishments are not "good" things - it is that they are too insignificant in the broader picture of this Admins other acts/failures to act.

Like Lily Ledbetter, or the recent NLRB rulings - yes, they are good, and all credit to Obama on them. But what possible difference will they make when the unions are busted and no one has a job anyway?

If his decisions were on balance favorable to the environment (ie, to life on this planet) - you would not have nearly a thousand activists being arrested in DC. You would not have plans afoot for a September "occupation" of Wall Street and an October "occupation" of DC.

There's a dying tree in the woods fringing my yard. There are still a few branches sucking enough life to put out green leaves, and even a few new twigs. But the tree is still near dead. Those few leaves and twigs matter not at all.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Well,
"what difference that "historic victory" will make when the earth melts?

...let's hope that the President does address new standards in 2013.

National Trends in Ozone Levels

Using a nationwide network of monitoring sites, EPA has developed ambient air quality trends for ozone. Trends are shown here for the 8-hour ozone standards. Under the Clean Air Act, EPA sets and reviews national air quality standards for ozone. Air quality monitors measure concentrations of ozone throughout the country. EPA, state, tribal and local agencies use that data to ensure that ozone is at levels that protect public health and the environment. Nationally, average ozone levels declined in the 1980's, leveled off in the 1990's, and showed a notable decline after 2002. For information on ozone standards, sources, health effects, and programs to reduce ozone, please see www.epa.gov/air/ozonepollution/.

<...>


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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I'm afraid I fail to see how this addresses the issue
... for just one particular, how does it in any way support the argument for electing Ds, given the dates cited? Not that I have ever or would ever "pull a lever" as we used to say for an R. I never have - even though in my area it is not unknown for an R candidate to be more "centrist/moderate" - even "progressive!"- than the D. The Party stands against me and everything I believe in - always has, always will, and I will never vote for one of them.

But the argument that we should work our asses off for the Ds was totally demolished by the results of our election of Obama and its outcome. The entire paradigm has failed. We have to take a different path. Which hurts me to say, having labored for years in local trenches for local Ds, and after the triumph of electing Obama.

And I have no hope at all. I am not young, and watched the environmental movement be co-opted by corporations with the active help of the Ds, while those of us pleading that, for instance, the shift to "recycle" from "reduce and reuse" was a trap that would lead us merrily down the path of destruction were tagged as radicals and unrealistic and wanting unicorns and naive and unwilling to work within "the system" or whatever tired phrase one wants to use.

Replace "environment" with just about anything else that's important and it's the same story.

And Obama is the the perfect avatar for our wasted efforts.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Wait
"But the argument that we should work our asses off for the Ds was totally demolished by the results of our election of Obama and its outcome. The entire paradigm has failed. We have to take a different path. Which hurts me to say, having labored for years in local trenches for local Ds, and after the triumph of electing Obama.

And I have no hope at all. I am not young, and watched the environmental movement be co-opted by corporations with the active help of the Ds, while those of us pleading that, for instance, the shift to "recycle" from "reduce and reuse" was a trap that would lead us merrily down the path of destruction were tagged as radicals and unrealistic and wanting unicorns and naive and unwilling to work within "the system" or whatever tired phrase one wants to use.

Replace "environment" with just about anything else that's important and it's the same story. "

...I posted a link to information from the EPA. What does the above have to do with the information?



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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
92. There's this obscure saying....
"can't see the forest for the trees."
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. honestly? it doesnt matter.
if what scientists were saying back in 2006 is true, weve already gone past the point of no return..

sometimes i wonder if our president isnt making decisions based off the fact there will be no earth in 50 years ;)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
62. We have big decisions to make re nuclear reactors -- they should be SHUT DOWN ...
Even if we have passed the point of no return with Global Warming --

we can still make the difference, perhaps, between "a whimper or a bang" -- !!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
61. +1000% -- Keep on telling it ---
the public has to wake up to the greatest threat to us all -- Global Warming --

and understand that it isn't in some far distant future -- it's NOW!



:hi:


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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. the species aren't protected yet. and may never be.
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 11:43 AM by KG
it's just a lawsuit settlement 'requiring the agency to make initial or final decisions on whether to add hundreds of imperiled plants and animals to the endangered species list by 2018.'

ETA - as far as i can tell the prez had nothing to do with this.

nice try tho. :eyes:
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. I wear one of these when biking in heavy traffic.
I expect that sooner or later, we'll all need one just to go outside.



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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Jebus is coming.
No need to maintain clean air and water because we won't need them much longer.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
37. PRIMARY him!!! Dangit, he is NOT a Democrat. Currently, there is no choice
The only thing I can say that is "hopeful" about him is that he might, just might appoint someone to the SCOTUS that is not a corporate shill. We KNOW the cons will appoint a type that is bad. Obama probably will, but possibly could not.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. No one has come forward to run against him and we're months away from Super Tuesday.
I think, if a Dem planned to try to unseat him, that Dem would have come forward by now, given all the advantages Obama has as a candidate--experienced organization alreay in place, fundraising ability, etc.

I plan to write in someone on Super Tuesday, but I am not kidding myself that a write in will win.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. It's the thought that counts. :) I will not vote for a Repuke, but cannot bring myself
to check a box for this man. I keep hoping for someone.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
65. We should have a panel actively seeking a challenger to Obama ...
When you actually understand that the Democratic Party and all of its elected

officials are offering no real resistance to Obama and his RW pro-corporate

decisions -- then you have to add that up and understand that the party may be

totally useless to us -- !!


Whether or not there is resistance in the party -- opposition to Obama -- is

something very important to look at !!


There have been a number of calls for challengers -- we have tons of democrats

who can run to oppose Obama -- all better Democrats than he is !!


Start calling for a challenger and let's go!!

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. What do we do? WE KEEP FIGHTING. We keep demanding that the health
of the world we all depend upon for our very lives must not take a back seat to the unsustainable growth of corporate profits.

The price for destroying ecosystems, polluting water and air, and poisoning our children must be far too high for anyone to even consider doing.

NEVER give up. Never, never, never, never, never give up.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
87. Absolutely .... !!
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 11:32 PM by defendandprotect
Why everyone hasn't been walking around with MEDICARE FOR ALL buttons

for one since '08, I don't know?

END THE WAR buttons -- 80% of the public want an end to the wars --


Time to present the bill for the Industrial Revolution to the elites --

it cost us the planet to engage in "bus-i-ness" -- so that a few could collect

their 10% profit -- and now way beyond that -- obscene profits which translate

into obscene power for corporations/elites.


Let's nationalize our natural resources -- all of them --

"Congress is under the control of the oil and coal industries" -- Al Gore/Rolling Stone

Corporations/elits have been given illegitimate power at the expense of the general

welfare and the planet --


We're at the bottom line of all of this and citizens have to understand just what that

is -- Global Warming -- !!


Meanwhile, look around you at your towns, your roads, the decay -- the empty stores --

the huge numbers of unemployed -- this is a depression -- don't be fooled about that!





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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
40. The best option, I think...
...is to tank this election and work on a real labor party to challenge Perry in 2016. Otherwise, we proceed to Bush's fourth term and get stuck with a fascist in 2016.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. as opposed to the fascists we've been stuck with since 1980?
really, I'm thinking the idea of getting someone who is against the empire is a pipe dream, at this point.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Yes, as opposed to them.
It's been getting worse.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Plan A.
Plan A should be to dump Obama in favor of a more progressive Democrat- somebody who can run against both the Republicans and Obama's record. If the true Democrat loses, 4 years of clueless Republican leadership will almost certainly drive the economy into depression and the futility of the Republican prescription should be obvious to virtually everyone.

The real calamity would be 4 more years of Obama pursuing Republican policy solutions and the Democrats getting the blame for their inevitable failure.

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. yes. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #53
88. Has to be two strong anti-war candidate s-- who also strongly support MEDICARE4ALL ..!!
And who are ready to move on Global Warming --

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rainbowlaw Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
42. What to do next?
As I see it, there are 2 options & there is no reason we cannot do both at once. We got into this economic/political/environmental mess by virtue of more & more conservative policies being enacted over the last 4 decades. We can begin to turn the tide immediately by putting our voices and bodies out there as a visible, loud protest. In fact, there is an event being planned for October 6th 2011 to begin an occupation of Freedom Plaza. If you care about jobs, the economy, income inequality, saving Social Security & Medicare, education, workers rights, women's rights, LGBT rights, immigration rights, civil rights and more, get your body to DC and be counted! They have money but there are WAY more of us than there are of them!

While we are doing this, we should copy the conservative long-term game plan and begin to systematically buy media outlets, organize progressive groups and think-tanks that write papers which are cited by the media and get progressives to run for local and state offices so that they will eventually make their way up the political ladder to DC where they will have a majority vote. I am not talking Democrat or Republican -- I am talking about real progressives with a solid left philosophy.

http://builtfromtrash.com/take-action/38-walking-the-wa...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. October 6, 2011 is a great event Welcome to DU.
"While we are doing this, we should copy the conservative long-term game plan and begin to systematically buy media outlets, organize progressive groups and think-tanks that write papers which are cited by the media and get progressives to run for local and state offices so that they will eventually make their way up the political ladder to DC where they will have a majority vote. I am not talking Democrat or Republican -- I am talking about real progressives with a solid left philosophy."


Cool. Any thoughts on where to start start raising the money?






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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Despite Al Gore's problems, I think he could take Obama in a primary
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
48. Stunned?
Why? I'm not even mildly surprised.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
49. start a website called "Green Underground"?
Why can't the Greens be a viable alternative? Why can't there at least be a caucus for Green Democrats, since progressives often weigh human concerns over universal ones? I've been trying to stay loyal to the president I campaigned for so heavily in 2008, but he sure isn't making it easy. Got an Obama bumper sticker in the mail this week, thought about it, said to myself, no, not yet, he's got to do something first. And not this!!
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. there's already one going...
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. interesting
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
89. Good alternative site ---
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
50. Environmentalists have same options as UNIONS and WOMEN ... pick up the party label ....
and walk off with it --

We have to find out what's left of the Dem Party after 20 and more years of

Koch Bros/DLC infiltration of the party -- and their influence over the agenda,

and selection of its candidates --

In fact, since we see no UPRISING vs Obama and his right/wing corporate direction

imo we can only guess that most of the Dem Party isn't that upset with what's going

on!!

Silence is also a message -- we have to stop ignoring reality -- !!

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
67. exactly.
well said D&F! :applause:
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
63. Odd how rarely it is mentioned that this was a request for a RE-WRITE which would sharpen the FIGHT
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 02:25 PM by patrice
legally, a LEGAL fight, btw, that had been backed-out of by some of the organizations doing the complaining now, apparently in the expectation that the President was going to do it all for them, so they did not need to pursue the lawsuit/FIGHT themselves, nor deal with the fact that the regs were slopping, thus, incurring un-necessary effort and, also thus, deterring resources from dealing effectively with the NECESSARY efforts. It's called prioritization and that's a useful thing when you care about goals more than you do about politics.

Get a clue, All, we MUST do it for ourselves and, thus, FREE ourselves from dependence upon the power of others.

Here's the letter:

http://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/USEOPWHPO/20...
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #63
90. We are the ones we have been waiting for
A Hopi Elder Speaks

"You have been telling the people that this is the Eleventh Hour, now you must go back and tell the people that this is the Hour. And there are things to be considered . . .

Where are you living?
What are you doing?
What are your relationships?
Are you in right relation?
Where is your water?
Know your garden.
It is time to speak your Truth.
Create your community.
Be good to each other.
And do not look outside yourself for the leader."

Then he clasped his hands together, smiled, and said, "This could be a good time!"

"There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold on to the shore. They will feel they are torn apart and will suffer greatly.

"Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above water. And I say, see who is in there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, Least of all ourselves. For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.

"The time for the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves! Banish the word struggle from you attitude and your vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.

"We are the ones we've been waiting for."

-- attributed to an unnamed Hopi elder

Hopi Nation

Oraibi, Arizona
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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
64. The only real thing to do is win back congress. It's the only thing that'll push Obama left.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Let's see... GOP controls everything by simply having the House ... why bother with anything more?
Let's just secure the House and then Dems can run everything ... right?


What farce!!

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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. I meant win everything it's the only thing that'll make Obama act like a liberal.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. If you really think that, you really don't understand what's been going on ....
This is a corporate president --

We had everything in '08 -- Presidency, Senate and USHR --

Obama threw away his mandate --

GOP was finished -- Obama resurrected them from the ashes --

If every member of Congress was a Democrat, OIL and COAL industries would

have to find some way to shut down Congress --

but Obama would still be a pro-corporate president -- !!

And so would many Dems be pro-corporate --

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craigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #86
93. Yes most of what you say is true but it's also true that Obama was more progressive
when democrats controlled congress. Yes I know many of them are bought but the ones that aren't pushed the administration to the left and positive things actually got done. Now is Obama a true progressive principled president? No not by any stretch of the imagination but he has had some big accomplishments. He's clearly not a movement liberal but he has been good for gays and many other minority groups. As a matter of fact I'd say he's the most left leaning president we've had since Carter at least if not LBJ. He didn't throw away his mandate. It was taken from him when he took too long to pass HCR in 2009. Ever since that point he's never been the same. Maybe if he'd done more on the economy up front he'd be more popular but that's ships has sailed. Still HCR even if it doesn't go far enough is something that helps people.
Still your basic point is take we need real progressives in office. If I actually saw some materialize I'd support them in a heart beat but until then we're pretty much stuck with Obama and his compromisers because the only other alternative at this point are republicans and they're insane.
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PuffedMica Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
68. We can pursue an option outside of tightening EPA standards on Ozone

The EPA standards are not scheduled to come up for review until 2013. We should fight this fight when the time is right, not now while there is a hostile Tea Bag House of Representatives and a Senate worried over a slow economy. Forcing a change to the EPA standards before the review is going to cost the President too much political capital, and maybe cost us the Senate and the Executive Branch.

Cede the Ozone regulations to the polluters until 2013, then change them according the the way the law was written. In the meantime, address the issue from the angle of replacing dangerous fossil fuels with alternative energy sources. Realize that entities that profit from hydrocarbon fuels will never do any heavy lifting to effect their replacement, it is up to our Government to fund the initial implementation of new energy sources until those sources are advanced enough to become our primary sources of energy.

Jobs is the number one issue in this country today, and there are jobs to be made in clean, renewable energy. It is so simple; the energy comes from the sun, and all we have to do is harvest it. Solar, wind, waves, and biomass are all viable technologies, but they need a bit of a help up to compete with the established polluting carbon sources.

We can get our jobs from harvesting energy from the sun. The energy is there every day and will be for as long as the sun shines. We do not need to dig deep holes into the ground for a limited resource that started running out from the first lump of coal burned or the first barrel that was pumped. A wind turbine waits for the wind to bring it the energy without having to go look in the dark, dangerous depths of the Earth.

I say we need massive spending on an Apollo program for clean, renewable energy. The results will be both jobs and a reduction in carbon pollution.

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
70. It's very strange how so few ask any questions. Remember the NYTimes' LIES that got us into WAR???
wow.

:shrug:
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Yep, I do. And I've never felt the same way about them since...
but that was the source for this particular piece.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
72. WHY does everyone assume that they know absolutely EVERYTHING they need to know from ONE newspaper
article?

Is this NOT a highly complex issue, involving multiple elements?

Do we know the exact specification of the subject regulations and all related regulations?

What the fucking hell happened to the lawsuit that SOMEBODY apparently initiated but dropped?

holy fucking wow, you all . . .

Get jerked around much?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
80. there are numerous articles about this, patrice
and they're saying pretty much the same thing:

http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&b...
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. The American Heart Ass. came out against Obama for this
Think they might know something about it?
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
75. It seems to me...
That softening of the ozone pollution standards is laying out the red carpet for that tar sands project
that does more environmental damage than harvesting crude the standard way.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
77. The President
doesn't want to be the President in 2012. It's the only explanation that makes sense. By now it should be evident that he doesn't give a flying fuck about the people who voted for him, and he damned sure doesn't give a fuck about the environment.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. I agree. It's the only thing that makes sense...
he seems to be making damn sure he doesn't have a chance in 2012. It's okay, though, he's set for life, so what does he care? :grr:
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
79. What's Next.....
Terra Nova..... good timing starts Sept 26th.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
82. Obama can you hear me? Obama can you see me?
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texshelters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
83. yes, lets cut out those regulations
that interfere with life and liberty. Laugh or cry at this: http://wp.me/pYQmQ-e1

Peace,
Tex Shelters
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-11 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
91. Most of them have already endorsed Obama.
The New York Times doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.
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