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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:34 AM
Original message
Disdain for Wal-Mart pulls neighbors together | Denver Post
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 11:35 AM by DinoBoy
Disdain for Wal-Mart pulls neighbors together
Opposition becomes a social phenomenon


By John Ingold
Denver Post Staff Writer


Post / Karl Gehring
Danelle Jansen protests a Wal-Mart proposed
for the old Elitch Gardens site in northwest
Denver. Such opposition seems to be growing,
but it doesnt represent most people, the retailer
says.


Nothing twists Mary Hendrick's innards quite like a Wal-Mart.

"Wal-Mart, uck, it just does something to you," says Hendrick, a northwest Denver resident.

She isn't the only one.

Dozens have picketed along with Hendrick at the home of a developer planning a Wal-Mart in northwest Denver. More than 500 Thornton residents showed up at a public hearing to protest a proposed Wal-Mart. Residents in Windsor put two candidates on the town board ballot specifically to fight a possible Wal-Mart.

More at the Denver Post
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Dulcinea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I hate Walmart too.
Cheap, low-quality merchandise, censored magazines & music, rednecks...no thanks. Give me Target any day.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Give me Meijers. Great products, low prices, union work force.
I love them!

Unfortunately, I moved to Tennessee 4 years ago and we don't have them here.

But I loved them in Ohio and shopped there all the time.

But I did grocery shopping at Kroger's, also a union work force.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. The citizens of Inglewood, CA just blocked WalMart from
taking over in their community...

it can be done, because it has been done.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. Awesome!
I think Walmart is an evil empire, so I think this is great. We're trying to stop a Walmart opening up in my hometown of Liverpool, NY. The entire community is against it. I hope we win this.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. The strong-spined people of Inglewood California did it successfully.
It CAN be done. Despite the millions spent on advertising, the millions spent by the Mega-Monster-Mart to get a favorable measure on the local ballot, Goliath LOST. A whole bunch of little Davids with little slingshots WON!

It CAN be done.

I'm wondering if this isn't a growing grassroots movement. I'm encouraged! They have all these nauseating smarmy commercials on about how "they brought JOBS to this community." "Look at me, I'm the vice president for stationery!" "It has everything we need for our feeeeeamly." Those commercials are just like bush campaign ads, meant to distract and muddy the issue, by wrapping it in an all-american, rosey-cheeked, face-lifted, lipstick-on-pig charade. The more opposition there is to the Walmart juggernaut, the better. I am SO GRATIFIED to hear this is happening in more places now! Encouraging news!
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. just lost that battle in Palm Springs
there was very little time to muster a resistence . the scumbags here just rolled over.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Way cool!
:toast:
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. Oppose Wal-Mart if you like paying too much
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 11:42 AM by Pyrogen
Today I bought a can of Campbell's Tomato Juice at Wal-Mart for $1.09. Friday I was forced to buy can at Kroger for $1.69 (too far frm Wal-Mart). What I want to know is: WHO is skimming off the extra 60 cents per can????
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Those extra 60 cents per can...
help pay living wages for the Kroger employees and provide them decent health benefits they don't have to spend their entire salary on just to pay for.

Go to Costco, if you have one, instead. They offer cheap prices AND good employee benefits. It's win-win. They show it CAN be done, unlike Walmart.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. you will pay the difference in taxes
supporting the Walmart employees on Medicaid.
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. and food stamps
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Well it's a little more complicated than that
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 12:04 PM by DinoBoy
But to answer your question directly, the people who are "skimming" off that extra 60 cents are the Kroger employees who dare make more than minimum wage.

But like I said, it's more complicated than that. Walmarts open up in towns and artificially lower their prices in an attempt to drive local stores out of business. Walmart can afford to keep its store running in the red for years, while Johny Local cannot, and is driven out of business.

The thing is, when Walmart's artificial price deflation (which is why your can of juice is $1.09) drives enough competition out of business, it raises prices to more realistic prices (like $1.69 for the juice), so it's not really saving anyone any money.

Moreover, it ends up costing the town jobs in the long run, because although it may initially employ 500 people, the loss of three or four local stores, costs the town 1500 jobs, and in three or four years, there's a net loss of 1000 jobs, no competition, and higher prices.

So.... enjoy your $1.09 juice while it lasts, because it most assuredly will not.

ON EDIT: Changed "soup" to "juice," I read Campbell's in the original post and assumed it was soup.... Also edited some grammar for more clarity.
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Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Add to that...
Food stamp and Medicaid expenses for the miserably paid and uninsured WalMart workers, which comes out of your tax dollars. It's callec corporate welfare, and it works out just lovely for WalMart.

:nuke:
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. And there is competition with the 3 or 4 local stores vs 1 walmart
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Jack The Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Keep shopping Wal-Mart if you like the destruction of the middle class..
Wal-Mart, as a model of new business, is going to turn America's workers into wage slaves.

So enjoy that cheap juice! Maybe soon you will not be able to afford even a luxury like that.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. But isn't the tradeoff all the same?
You say Wal-Mart's employees make a slave wage, but isn't the economic impact equalized by the collective lower prices we all pay?

Also, I am wondering if Wal-Mart's wages are really that much lower than everybody else's. Even if it is, aren't folks permitted to work anywhere they choose?

I just don't get all the complaints about Wal-Mart. Ours have been here for 15 years, and I haven't heard anything about the destruction of the middle class. I do see lots of people who appear to be poor shopping at Wal-Mart. I see them as giving folks without means a lot more bang for their bucks.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. No
Read post 7, the "low prices" are a temporary gimmick, and not a perminent feature.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. I worked for Wal-mart for over a year, my dad did for 7 years.
I don't have time this afternoon to tell you all the horror stories of our combined tenure with this obscene behemoth, but as far as I'm concerned, they are as evil as they come.

Every shopper who saves 60 cents on the price of a can of juice or soup or soda or anything else does so on the backs of the worker, either directly employed at Wal-Mart or indirectly employed at the suppliers who pour the cheap junk into Wal-mart. From the slave-laborers in China (did you know Wal-Mart has a purchasing office right in China?) to the workers and shareholders at Vlasic: Wal-mart always gets the low price, no matter who pays.

They are medieval tyrants. Pox upon them.



Tansy Gold, socialist
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. Tansy, Wal-Mart doesn't have a "purchasing office" in China
Rather, Wal-Mart's global purchasing operation is in Shanghai.

Wal-Mart has a few other delightful habits: They will come into your building, go to your books and tell you what to cut out to get your overhead down. They will tell you what to charge. They demand you cut your prices on things that don't change--if you sell Wal-Mart ten pound bags of flour for $1.50 this year, next year they only want to pay $1.42. And the year after that $1.35. If you have the tremendous gall to want $1.55 for your flour because there's $1.30 worth of grain in it against $1.20 last year, Wal-Mart has no problem with dumping your ass, telling you to take your five million pounds of flour and go home. And Wal-Mart buys in such quantities, they know you have to take any deal they offer--no one else can absorb that much freight.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. My Chinese is limited (okay, non-existent) and when I posted I. . . .
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 07:36 PM by Tansy_Gold
. . . .didn't have the time to do the proper research.

But a quick google of "Wal-Mart" "purchasing" and "China" yielded this at the top of the list:


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200208/05/eng20020805...


Wal-Mart's Global Purchasing Center Moved to Shenzhen

<snip>
The US-based Wal-Mart, the world's largest chain store retailer, has moved its global purchasing center from Hong Kong to Shenzhen, a city in south China's Guangdong Province.

<end snip>

I thought I remembered WalMart moving its purchasing headquarters to China not too long ago, but I didn't want to post that without reference. Whether "Shanghai" is the same as "Shenzhen," I don't know, but it's clear that WalMart has moved its purchasing center to China. After all, that's where they buy most of their slave-labor-produced junk.

It's very true that WalMart relies on "suckers" in many forms. The trick is to sucker people into buying things they don't want and don't need but can't resist because of the low prices. This establishes buying habits, to the point that many shoppers *believe* WalMart is lower on everything and won't even look for bargains elsewhere.

Their goal is nothing short of retail monopoly. They do not want competition; they want to eliminate it.

The store where I worked (in Avondale, Arizona) was built in 1997 and opened for business in January 1998. Last summer -- 2003 -- they were
trying to get permission to build a new supercenter literally three miles away, in the neighboring city of Goodyear, Arizona. The Avondale site has no other businesses on it; WalMart owns the property which consists of a parking lot and a supercenter. No pads, no other stores. If they close the Avondale store, it will sit there as a blight.

Hearings held by the Goodyear Planning and Zoning Commission resulted in a recommendation to the City Council that WalMart not be given a permit to build the new store. Hundreds of citizens showed up at the meetings to protest the building of yet another cheap merchandise and cheap labor supercenter. Despite the P&Z's recommendation, the City Council approved the permit. Two citizens' groups attempted to get the issue on the municipal ballot, but even that was shot down. The City Council was not swayed: they fell back on the old "we need the sales tax money" rationale, not paying one bit of attention to the notion that the sales tax from a WalMart will be less than the sales tax from a dozen local businesses, especially when the drain on local services caused by the cheap-labor practices of WalMart are factored in.

WalMart wants consumers to consume. Conservation, doing more with less, these are anathema to them. Personally, I'd much rather buy less but buy better; it's cheaper in the long run.

Will WalMart raise their prices when they've driven out all the competition? Well, they haven't driven it all out yet. And they will always have their loss leaders to make the suckers believe it's a good deal. But the profits will be there for the Walton heirs, no matter what. And every time you (generic "you," not anyone here specifically) shop there, you are putting money in their pockets, you are supporting cheap labor practices, and you are probably buying at least a few things you really could do without.

Of course, the WalMart defenders will never admit that. . ..


(edited for some typos and punctuation, but I may have missed some. . .)
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. everyone is a sucker once
the enlightened ones wake up and change tack.
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missingthebigdog Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
48. There are other societal costs, as well.
It is almost blasphemy to speak against Wal Mart here in Little Rock, AR, but I have a few things to add.

On a leisurely Sunday drive around town here, you can easily find four or five abandoned Wal Mart buildings. Wal Mart stays someplace for awhile, and then builds a bigger, better store a short distance away, leaving behind a huge empty box surrounded by acres of concrete. The little stores that spring up around Wal Marts- Payless Shoes, Dollar Tree, etc., move on as well- they no longer have a continuous stream of customers driving by.

This practice is devastating to the surrounding neighborhood. To make matters worse, Wal Mart hangs on to these buildings, and will not sell or lease them to other businesses that might compete with them.

The saddest thing is that in many instances the community has given Wal Mart all kinds of accomodations and tax incentives to locate in a particular area. Wal Mart costs communities money- especially YOUR community. All that money you are spending is coming right here to Arkansas. . . .
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. The employees?
By receiving a living wage with health benefits so YOU don't have to pay for more indigent health care through your city or county.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. You don't get it, do you Pyrogen???
most of Wal-Marts employees do not get adequate benefits. When they or their children get sick, GUESS YOU PAYS FOR IT?? That's right - WE DO, WITH OUR TAXES. In the meantime, WAL-MAR MAKES OUT LIKE BANDITS.

EDUCATE YOURSELF.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. you don't get it
corporate propaganda takes its ugly toll
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I'm so sorry you have such little faith in people's
ability to take control of their own lives.
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Tommyrot!!
And that's the "nice" word.

In today's job market, people take WHATEVER THEY CAN GET. They literally have NO CHOICE. The personnel department at the WalMart here has on file over 200 applications, 90% of whom are ALREADY UNEMPLOYED.

And when there is an opening it will be 20 hours a week. No benefits even offered.

And to think that most of the current employees worked for small businesses that are now 'out of business.'

GET A CLUE.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. LOL
you care more about the cost of Campbell's Tomato juice than you do about HUMAN RIGHTS.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. So tell us why .....
you think people should not have the opportunity to shop where they please. Also tell us why you would force poor people to pay more for their basic items than they do now at Wal Mart??
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. listen pyro
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 10:54 PM by Skittles
I don't have the time nor the energy to waste on someone who is so deeply affected by corporate propaganda. Why are you here? If Wal-mart exploiting workers doesn't bother you because you get cheap tomato juice, why are you here?

educate yourself on your own time. Google some research.

Here's a start:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2004/nf2...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. you don't seem to understand
THERE IS MORE AT STAKE HERE THAN THE BOTTOM LINE. And what you "see" at Wal-Mart is they way they MUST BEHAVE to be EMPLOYED. GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Nobody here wants to "force" people to shop anywhere...
But you can bet WalMart wants to force you to shop there and only there, as their merchandise gets shoddier, as they offer great sub-minimum salaries to desperate illegals, as they squash the small businesses that helped make America great.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. it's sad, isn't it?
like a true conservative only the bottom line counts. The price of dignity is the savings on a can of tomato juice. I'm disgusted.

Great hippo shot. :D
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. For poor people, it truly IS the bottom line that counts.
You're damn right about that. They have no time to ponder the social issues some read into buying stuff at a store. They want the stuff they need as inexpensively as they can get it. I am sorry if you are disgusted at those people.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Don't EVEN begin to tell ME, US in the DU, about POOR PEOPLE
WE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO TRULY CARE ABOUT POOR PEOPLE. THEY DON'T DISGUST ME; PEOPLE WHO PARROT PROPAGANDA DO.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. You are great with platitudes, Skittles. Now tell me what you've observed
personally about Wal-Mart. I have a large family and I am in the shopping 'trenches' as far as pricing and items and personnel, and service at stores goes. Go ahead and tell me what you've see with your own eyes. Don't just tell me how good everyone should assume you are.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #83
94. Oh, man. You are not wise to challenge Skittles.
This is going to be fun to watch. :)

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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Sorry, just proclaiming that one's goodness
and benevolence towards the poor shouldn't be challenged just because of who they think they are....just doesn't cut it in the field of debate. Just using the word f*** twice each post doesn't either. I'm looking for substance.


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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #98
104. substance
LOL, from the guy who is more concerned about tomato juice than employment rights

*ignore*
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #98
108. Like I said - he wasn't wise.
I love the disruptor graphic. :)

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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Tombstoned, but not removed
I guess the mods decided to leave him as an object lesson. Usually the disruptors and their posts are removed, but I'm glad this thread was left intact.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. I think it's a great idea. Leave their swill up.
Mods should maybe attach a note to their name along the lines of "banned for ignorance" or some similar comment. Let the would-be diruptors see we're not playing around here, and that they will not last long.

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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #72
86. It's the same sort of complacency
that was rampant when slavery was legal in America.

There were plenty of people who didn't own slaves, but still benefitted from the practice. What did they care, as long as it was someone else who was hurting?

It is disgusting.

And thanks! :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. DEAR GOD
I don't even know where to start. I feel sick.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #75
95. Since most sheeple like yourself go for "the bottom line", here's a hint.
They fall hook-line-and-sinker for the artificially-low prices, and get stung when the other stores close down and prices rise.

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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #75
96. Fine, save your 60 cents.
Just don't whine when your taxes go up 75 cents to pay for the healthcare of the Walmart employee who has no health insurance.

Not to mention the fact that you have now added 15 cents to the cost paying for yet more buracracy to handle the programs that will be paying for that healthcare.

Personaly, I believe in a living wage, and there is NO WAY Walmart pays that. Or the businesses that are forced to compete with them.

You sure sound like you belong more at Free Republic than here.

Are you aware of what % of Walmart employees are on some kind of public assistance?

I am, but I suggest you do the reserach yourself.

Also, are you aware that the State of California is currently sueing Walmart to recover costs of having to support Walmart employees with healthcare and foodstamps.

http://ufcw135.org/wal/wal_womensgroup_072803.htm

And it is asserted, with witnesses, that Walmart management is openly ENCOURAGING employees to apply for said aid?

Wake up! You are not saving anything shopping there.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Let me tell you a thing or two about choice, pyrogen
"Choice" is relative, and it's relative to the ability of the individual to make the choice.

A person who is "poor" and has limited financial resources does not have the same choices available that a "comfortable" person does.

WalMart's strategy is to, forgive me for being blunt, sucker the "poor" into shopping there, using loss-leaders such as your precious can of tomato juice as an example. Sure, buy the cheap juice, and maybe the cheap macaroni, and the cereal and the soda, and the meat. . . . .but because poor people often don't have the time to exercise choices -- they work more and less regular hours than the more affluent -- they can't spend an entire day shopping at WalMart for some items, at Target for others, at Safeway for others. They can't afford the gas to drive around either. so they get suckered into buying the crap sold at WalMart, whether it's furniture that falls apart or a toilet seat that wears out.

But because our culture DEMANDS consumption and because the greatest measure of "success" in our country is wealth, as demonstrated by consumption, these people get suckered in again and again and again. Not by genuinely low prices, but by bait and switch, by loss leaders, by a dozen other scams.

In this current economy, there are few choices when it comes to jobs, and those who have even the most subsistence of incomes are afraid to lose what precious little they have. Are they truly "free" to make choices? Would you be if you were in their shoes?

Oh, forget it. I don't think you're the type to indulge in that kind of debate. Your mind is already made up: it's all about the lowest price you have to pay for juice.

I can't believe I've spent so much time on this, except that maybe someone else learned something.

Tansy Gold, who hasn't set foot in WalMart in five years and never will
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. LOL.....................TANSY
you've got more patience than me but this person is stuck on the bottom line - just only sees the trees and not the proverbial forest, like so many other goose-steppers. I think IGNORE is our friend.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #74
81. So you are saying that Wal-Mart uses 'loss-leaders'
then charges too much on other stuff to compensate?
OK. Give some examples, some evidence, coz I haven't seen that.
From my observations, Wal-Mart is cheaper across the board. I once saw Home Depot outperform them pricewise on a brass mailbox. But as far as groceries? Forget it. So show me specific examples of what you are talking about with the loss-leader accusation, coz I watch stuff pretty carefully, and I will likely know if you know what you are talking about.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. No, after they buy their big bargain groceries
they pick up a toilet seat for $8.99. The hardware store across town is selling them for the ungodly price of $15.00 The only difference is the one the hardware store is selling was made in the USA by people who will have health insurance and a vacation this year and will last 10 years. The WalMart model however, was made in China by workers who are forced to labor under ridiculous conditions, and may last a year. But if it doesn't last a year, it's ok; because they can always buy another $8.99 "special" a few months from now.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #87
99. Nope. Same name brands. Same items.
MUCH lower price. Kraft, Kohler, Black & Decker.....It's the SAME stuff. So enough about the shoddy quality red herring.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. No...not all the same brands.
There's an overabundance of "bargain" items that you won't find in the Mom&Pop shops (though you might find them at Home Depot or KMart)because they're cheap crap. I'm thinking specifically about their crappy clothes, linens, and home furnishings.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. They're becoming fewer and farther between...
because the greedy moguls like WalMart are putting respectable employers out of business by appealing to ignorant people who think that they're simply getting a bargain.

The Mom&Pop stores that people (both republicans and Democrats)operated until they retired and passed along to their children are as good as gone thanks to these conglomerates who can't be satisfied with earning enough to make a living, or even earning enough to get rich. They won't be satisfied until they've trampled on every little guy in the business.

Then they'll find another business to trample.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
84. By that logic, we should have protected blacksmiths and livery stables
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 11:27 PM by Pyrogen
Times change. Economics change. Some things become obsolete. Some businesses become obsolete. Should we mourn the demise of the watchmaker, of the typewriter repair man, of the full-service gas station attendant? No. Change happens. To some it's bad. To others it's good. Wal-Mart has rewritten the way retail merchandising is done. To some it's bad, to more it's good. More believe it's good because it's likely to continue.
This is how the world has operated for centuries.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. This is entirely different...
While the demise of obsolete professions to make way for more efficient technology is a sad fact of life, the greed that would corner the entire retail sales market need not be.

The fact that WalMart offers substandard wages to its employees and poorer quality merchandise to its consumers does not put them into the same category as those businesses which seek to improve the quality of living and merchandise for all concerned.

The fact that "more believe it's good" is demonstrative of the ignorance that runs rampant in a short-sighted society. Those who believe WalMart is good now will not view it so well in a few years, when the quality items that Mom&Pop sold cannot be found because too many people invested in the labor of slaves.

My sincere hope is that we can educate those who are blind to the evils of WalMart and similar businesses.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. Your argument ignores market forces
You are equating making money and using cost-efficient business practices with greed. This is essentially capitalism. But we all know capitalism provides for the most abundance for all..of any economic system in the world.
You say the wages are substandard. Why not let market forces make that decision? It's pretty simple. If prospective employees decide that Wal-Mart pays too little, they will not work there.
Wal-Mart is the number one retailer in the world. You can't just go around calling all those millions of people shortsighted, stupid, or uneducated.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #97
103. Hmmmm...........
Market forces. Capitalism. Most abundant for the most. . . . .


Sounds like rightwing talk to me. But I would never accuse anyone. . . .

On the other hand, if low prices are good, then lower prices must be better. Therefore, if a person can get something for free, that must be the ultimate good.

Hope you won't prosecute anyone, pyrogen, who breaks into your house and steals something. After all, they're just getting it at the lowest price possible.

Pyrogen has said nothing that suggests she/he/it is on the democratic side. I think it may be time to hit the alert button and let this person go back to debating the values of unfettered capitalism where such debate will find a more welcoming audience.

I've had about all the fun I can stand -- and wasted all the time I can afford.

Tansy Gold, who notices with some satisfaction that FAR MORE people took the side of the workers and only one poor outvoted sucker stood up for WalMart
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
105. Slavery is a cost-efficient business practice, isn't it?
Edited on Mon Apr-19-04 01:21 PM by GoddessOfGuinness
That doesn't make it right.

Hitler felt the extermination of millions of people was a cost-efficient business practice. Just look at how many more millions benefitted from the eradication of a mere 6 or 7.

You clearly have no clue what the working poor suffer, Pyro; and it's also been clear from the beginning with your nick that you merely intended to "flame" this discussion with a conservative view of economics. The trouble with that view is that it displays a serious lack of empathy for anyone other than Number 1.

Ultimately, this leads to disaster for those subscribing to the "conservative" view as can be witnessed time and again throughout history in the form of bloody slave rebellions, revolutions, and civil wars. This is why it's imperative for the far right to step back and attempt to refocus their agenda along more compassionate sightlines.

I'd recommend that you try one of the following:

1) Apply for a job at WalMart and attempt to live solely on that income for a period of 6 months to one year.

2) Call your local Social Services Department, and find out if there are volunteer opportunities to help the working poor.

3) Visit your nearest Unemployment Office to get a good picture of what kinds of jobs are actually available and what kind of salaries they pay.

I hope you'll take the fact that you haven't been thrown out of here as a sign that left-wingers are truly concerned about you and your lack of empathy. I view it as a debilitating handicap that you can do something about if you choose.

~peace~
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #57
93. Where will the employee go when Wal-Mart has closed down stores?
Think logically for a moment: a Wal-Mart moves in, loss-leads most of its stock (the largest corporation in the world can afford to do that for years, as noted elsewhere in this thread), and local stores close down, unable to compete.

Prices go up as competition goes down. Eventually, the only place to work in many small towns is Wal-Mart. You don't like their low pay, where will you go for another job? Meanwhile, those "low, low prices" are not so low anymore.

I worked at Wal-Mart (briefly) years ago. Do you know they give new employees forms for welfare and food stamps when they are hired, because the company knows no one can survive on their pay? Are you aware that workers all over the country are suing the company over forced unpaid overtime?

Do a little research, man. I used to think Wal-Mart was great - then I learned the truth.

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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. We need these signs that replace 'Wal-Mart' with 'Bush'
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
8. Walmart Gave Up on Alameda Square Location
in the Asian neighborhood - every established Asian store would have been closed and forced to move.

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. The WalMart rep in the article
claims there's no opposition to the proposed development in Lakewood. This is a flat out lie - but I suppose it's to be expected.

WalMart will have a hard time in Northwest Denver - people up there are proud of the "small town" feel of those neighborhoods - they're very supportive of the local shops and businesses there. A WalMart at the old Elitch Gardens would be a disaster for that area; Highland Square, Tennyson, even Wheatridge would suffer.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. walmart was also stopped in
madison, wisconsin. i think they wanted to drain some wetlands and were turned down by the county..
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. This is my neighborhood
and those signs are everywhere. The way they redeveloped Elitches is disgusting. Now they are planning a "retail pad." This is a redeveloping neighborhood in Denver with a lot of independently owned, unique businesses and restuarants. The neighborhood is culturally diverse and known in Denver as Highland/Berkley. The last thing I want to see in this neighborhood is a Wal Mart. Now a Whole Foods or Wild Oats on the other hand, would be great. We only have a very small organic foods market on Tennyson. I don't want to see those folks get run out of business. They have the most incredible pastry and the take and bake pizza from the Edgewater Inn is to die for. We already have a Target and four grocery stores, so no, Wal Mart just needs to go away.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. The rumor mill has it
that a large natural food chain had investigated the Elitch Park space a few years ago and decided against it because they didn't feel the economic demographics for NW Denver could support the project.

Which is why I'm kind of surprised Walmart is thinking of that location.

The Tennyson area has a real chance of turning into something nice - a Walmart would trash all the work that neighborhood (and all those small businesses) have done in revitalizing that part of town.

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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. My family has lived in this area
for fifty years. It has really gotten nice around here since Elitche's is gone. Opening a Wal-Mart is just going to bring all those problems back and then some. Plus it will destroy the Mom&Pop's.

WAL-MART IS A BAD NEIGHBOR!
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
63. It has
but I don't care for the way they redeveloped Elitches. It looks like someone took a slice of Highland's Ranch and stuck it in the middle of North Denver. I realize they had a lot more space at Lowry but that redevelopment was done much nicer.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. Whomever
the natural food chain was, I think they made a mistake. They would do good business in this neighborhood. Tennyson is coming along quite nicely, isn't it? I have a hell of a time finding anything organic at King Soopers or Safeway. So I drive over to Whole Foods. They pay their employees very well from what I understand and have great benefits.
I definitley do not want to see a Wal Mart in this neighborhood.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here are some price comparisons......Take a look
Spalding #4 softballs at CMT Sporting Goods--$5.95/per
Spalding #4 softballs at Wal-Mart------------$2.87/per

1 lb bag lentils at Kroger---------------------.99
1 lb bag lentils at Wal-Mart-------------------.39

2 lb bag SeaMist Whiting fillets @ Kroger-----7.99
2 lb bag SeaMist Whiting fillets @ Wal-Mart---3.39

Kohler plastic commode seat #314572 @ Hardware Emporium (local)--12.99
Kohler plastic commode seat #314572 @ Wal-Mart--------------------3.97

Bounty Select-a-size Paper Towels 250 sheets @ Food Lion---2.49/roll
Bounty Select-a-size Paper Towels 250 sheets @ Wal-Mart-----.97

5 lb bag Kraft Shredded Mozarella Cheese @ Kroger----------$5.99
5 lb bag Kraft Shredded Mozarella Cheese @ Wal-Mart--------$2.97

Note..These are not hand-selected items--they are items I have just happened to have purchased in the past month(although I have known about the beans and fish--staples of our diet---for a long time. I am a careful but not obsessive shopper, but it isn't hard to see that Wal-Mart absolutely KILLED these other stores on price. And our stores have been here 15 years. I am terribly sorry, but I don't buy that routine that I should willingly pay more than double for the same item at another store. My feeling is that some of you folks are being played for suckers by the anti-capitalist crowd, because somebody is skimming off a hell of a lot for there to be such astronomical price disparities.






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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You don't get it
Those prices are ARTIFICIALLY low! People working at Wal-mart make absolutely SHIT wages; there is discrimination in hiring and promotion practices (note the number of lawsuits against Walmart around the country- they have even forced workers to work off the clock- which is illegal by the way). Walmart drives down wages in the community and results in loss of jobs overall in every community they go into. They are an EVIL corporation. You ibviously don't give a shit though about anyone but yourself becasue you don't realize that there are more important considerations than merely proce.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Did you read my post?
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 04:13 PM by Pyrogen
You said 'artificial' prices, but as I said, these Wal-Marts have been in our city since at least 1989. So if these prices are meant to drive other stores out by using 'artificial' pricing, when do you suppose the 'real' prices will kick in?

Also, I haven't known of any case where an employee was forced to go to work for Wal-Mart. This isn't the USSR, you know.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. They are artificial because they use slave labor
both in the manufacture and the sale of the goods. As long as they use slave labor, Wal-Mart will continue to offer goods at rock bottom prices.

You are lucky not to know anyone who is forced to work at Wal-Mart. It must be nice living in your world where you do not see the "little people" who slave in Wal-Marts camps.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. So where would your so-called 'slaves'
around the world work if there wasn't a Wal-Mart? In some rice paddy making four cents a year?
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. If the trade agreements were fair
the working standards of the poorer nations would be brought up. Then instead of working in Wal-Mart factories for four cents a year, these slaves could have a decent life.

Sorry that people in your world would have to pay a few bucks more, but at least those people would not be slaves and finally have some control over their own lives.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I wonder why the right wingers are pushing Wal-Mart so hard
Is it because they know they are doing a very bad thing by supporting that evil company and want to make themselves feel better if they could also get us to join in on their oppressive activity?
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
88. We're still fighting over slavery...
It just that they figure it's ok as long as the slaves aren't legal US citizens.

But I'll bet more than a few would like to overturn the Emancapation Proclamation as readily as Roe v. Wade.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Many of those slaves around the world
would be living reasonably comfortably on their own land, if it hadn't been taken over by corrupt regimes selling out to western corporate capitalism.

Pyrogen, you really need to educate yourself about the economic history of the world, especially over the past fifty years. It's about a whole lot more than cheap fish filets (which has contributed to the over-fishing of most of our oceans too, by the way). it's about the imposition of a mega-consumer ethic on a world that can't long support such waste.

It's also about pirates such as the Waltons going around sucking every last penny out of their suppliers, their employees, the tax-payers of the communities in which they build. It is always about "them" and never about "us" or even "you."

Most Wal-Marts do have low prices, which may or may not be "artificially" low. Most grocery chains have a profit margin of 1 or 2 or maybe 3%; Wal-Mart's isn't much higher. But what they do to make a profit on lower prices is to lower their overhead -- everything from wages to working conditions. Most Wal-Marts have narrower aisles than other stores, such as Target; they use the extra space to cram more merchandise in for customers to stumble over. they avoid unions so they can easily get rid of any employee who makes any kind of trouble, such as complaining about safety issues.

You may or may not have noticed in your trips through your wonderful Wal-mart that it has few windows and fewer clocks. They don't want shoppers to have any way of knowing how much time they've spent in the store. The stores are also laid out in a complex of perpendicular rather than parallel aisles -- which keeps shoppers confused and makes them travel more through the store than be able to get directly where they want to go.

The stores also have very different lay-outs. The company doesn't want you to go into a store in Fresno and expect to see the same layout as the store you're familiar with in Franklin Park.

Wal-Mart relies heavily on loss leaders. Kraft Macaroni and Cheese at 14 cents a box! Wow! Let's go get some! (And while we're at it, we'll pick up a couple dozen other things that aren't such bargains. Wal-mart always makes up the difference somewhere. They count on you not wanting to make a trip to the regular store just to save a few cents. . . .and of course it all adds up.)

The Wal-Mart I worked at kept its workforce at a bare minimum and utilized as many part-time people as they could. part-timers weren't eligible for any benefits, they were practically free labor. They were also the most desperate of people in a community that had offered few jobs before. (The area is in a state of frantic development, with lots of construction and retail, but few other jobs. However, I haven't worked for Wal-mart for five years. . . . ) These were people who were literally afraid to report an on the job injury, for fear of losing their job. They would not complain about being asked to work for an hour or so after they had already punched out; they were afraid to lose their jobs. They were often ecstatic to get a family member -- or two, or three -- hired at the same store, because it often meant the difference between just getting by and actually having some real income. But management knew they could use family members' jobs as leverage.

Wal-mart managers are sometimes VERY well paid, but for every store manager who makes $60K there are 150 floor associates who make $13K or less. For every district manager who makes $250K, there are 1500 part-timers making $150 a week before taxes.

We've been through this argument many times on DU, and you're a new-comer, Pyrogen, but you'll not find many supporting your side of the equation in this community. The one who did hasn't been heard from in many a month, and I, for one, don't miss him.

Tansy Gold, former Walmartyr

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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Nickel and Dimed
This book has a very good, "behind-the-scenes" look at WalMart and what it does to its employees.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. Nickel and Dimed
Excellent, excellent book. . . .

But. . . .

Ehrenreich only worked at the WalMart for a couple of weeks at most. And she only scratched the surface of her experience in a book that also covered other minimum-wage jobs.

I have a feeling most of us on this board have never had to live for any length of time on minimum wages without additional support. We should be thanking our lucky stars that we haven't -- that we have our computers, our high-speed connections (well, some us stil have dial-ups, but hey, I'm glad i even have that much!), and the rest of our "luxuries." There's a whole big world out there that doesn't.
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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. explain why Walmart won't match union wages and benefits...
you are making money off of other people's misery.

Walmart is the largest employer in America and it WONT employ people full time, pay benefits -- most notably health insurance, let alone pay the same wages that unionized supermarkets pay. It also doesn't promote female cashiers into managerial positions (there's a class action lawsuit pending on this one).

In fact, Walmart tells its employees how to apply for food stamps and Medicaid. It knowingly pays people below a subsistence wage!

The slaves in America aren't working in a rice paddy making four cents a year -- at least, not yet. They work at Walmart.

Walmart has been caught with employing illegal aliens and not just as subcontractors. My sister lives in Texas and her Walmart had Mexican cashiers that mysteriously disappeared one day (shortly after the crackdown by the feds) and were replaced by Anglos.



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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. Uh...could it be because then they'd have to raise prices?
Just a guess.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #55
89. Gee, maybe you're starting to catch on...
On the other hand, if their CEOs would take a pay cut and WalMarts stopped reproducing like rabbits, they might be in a position to offer a better benefits package without raising prices significantly.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #89
100. But then the very effective CEOs might go elsewhere if you cut
their salaries. Then Wal-Mart might not be as efficient as they are and their customers would not reap the benefits of that efficiency.
Also, do you really think cutting one guy's salary is going to make any difference at all?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
60. Hey!
Let us not forget the illegally hired alien cleaning staffs! Gotta make you feel good about shopping at Walmart!
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
80. you're wasting your time alarimer
it's a lost cause
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Those lower prices are meant to destroy the competition
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 05:10 PM by 0rganism
Go back and read Dinoboy's #7.

"Walmarts open up in towns and artificially lower their prices in an attempt to drive local stores out of business. Walmart can afford to keep its store running in the red for years, while Johny Local cannot, and is driven out of business."

Don't you get it yet? Once the existing competition is gone, Walmart can raise its prices back to the competitive norm, or even higher since they can lay claim to a de facto monopoly. You note the price disparity precisely because there is still a Kroger's in your area.

Your apparent support of this practice is shameful.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
58. As I have said in at least two other posts.....
Our Wal Marts have been here for over 15 years. If they use artificial pricing, exactly when is the 'real' pricing supposed to kick in?
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #58
90. They'll probably go the way of Zayre
and Ames.

Remember those terrific stores? They used slave labor and sold cheaper and cheaper crap until they killed themselves in the process.

I do wonder, though...Whatever happened to the CEOs of those companies?
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #90
101. Zayre and Ames were the victims of market forces.
You should be happy. If Wal-Mart goes the same way (which I doubt) you should be happy. So no need for you to meddle, is there? People will decide what happens to these stores with their feet and their dollars.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. Exactly...Who's meddling?
All I'm saying is people need to be informed. You forget, Pyrogen, like so many conservatives, that we are people...
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
92. And you've missed the point more than twice.
As I UNDERLINED in the preceding quote, for emphasis, so you might figure it out, Wal-Mart can afford to underprice FOR YEARS. Indefinitely, really: as long as there is competition, they'll price to undercut it. The goal is NOT to maximize per-item profit, it's to achieve a local retail monopoly.

So your answer is, the "real" pricing kicks in when the Kroger's (and whoever else is in the area) goes out of business.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. Have you ever personally observed Wal-Mart raising their prices
as the result of another store going out of business?
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #102
109. They won't do that until they've monopolized the business
Don't you see?

Meanwhile, they'll continue to overwork/underpay their employees (both legal and illegal) and offer floozier merchandise until they either have a monopoly or they sleaze themselves out of business.
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
49. Learn to be a little creative
We don't make much at all but have been successful in boycotting WalMart for some time now. We've had to make a few changes in what we buy but not that many and we've grown used to it. If you notice, you end up spending the same or more at WalMart because they suck you in with stupidly low prices on tons of stuff you don't even need.

What we get in exchange is we support the small business owners in our little town.

It really is worth it not to have to deal with the crowds, gimungous parking lot, and long lines, too.


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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. Something you may want to consider, Pyrogen
I'm slightly familiar with the Kohler wholesale price list, so I'll use that one.

I pay $8.63 for a Kohler plastic toilet seat when I purchase a case of them to sell in my store. I turn around and charge eleven and change for it.

I'm not exactly a mom-and-pop operation either; I work at Home Depot. We are the largest Kohler dealer in the world. If anything, we should be undercutting Wal-Mart on price and we're not. I'm not sure about the rest of the company, but at my store the only store we're trying to put out of business is Lowe's. (And if we hire too many more of Lowe's employees we may just do it.)

Wal-Mart cannot go forever charging half of the wholesale price for a toilet seat. Let me tell you how they work:

They start off by selling $8.63 Kohlers for $3.97. The mom-and-pop plumbing suppliers and M&P hardware stores wind up going out of the toilet-seat business. (Incidentally, some Wal-Marts have a map with pushpins marking the locations of their competitors. When one of the "pushpins" goes out of business because of Wal-Mart, they have a party.)

Next, they get a Chinese company to make a toilet seat they can profitably sell for $3.50. It looks like a Kohler, kinda. It lasts six months to a year. And it sells like hotcakes. Which makes my toilet seat business start hurting.

Wal-Mart's goal is to be the only retailer in the world.
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Pattib Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
56. Here are some things that Wal-Mart routinely does to its employees.
I live in N. Florida. Smallish town. Walmart is the only game in this town. They do employ 400 employees. The starting salary is $5.75 an hour for a cashier. Cart pushers and door greeters start at $5.50.

When you are newly hired you are never full-time. You are part-time/temp. This way Walmart is not required to offer you health insurance, sick days, vacation ect... Of course you then work 30-35 hours a week. At our Walmart only 10-15% of the employees are full-time workers. Most of those workers can't afford the health insurance. Supervisors are paid $8.50 an hour.

My friend became a supervisor after five years as a cashier. It took her three years of being part-time to move up to full-time status. She routinely put in 30-40 hour weeks while being considered "part-time". How they get away with this I do not know.

During her three years as a PT employee she received two raises, both for .25 cents an hour. Wow, it's a wonder poor Walmart didn't bankrupt themselves with that measley 50 cents. My friend is now employed at the hospital where I work as a nurse. She started at $9.75 in the reception/admitting dept. with full benefits. She now makes $11.00 an hour.
Not a fortune I know but it is a start.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. Here's how they do it, pattib
WalMart classifies employees -- er, "associates" -- as part-time if they work less than X hours per week on average. In the store where I worked from Dec 1997 to Jan 1999, the break point on part time was 30 hours. If someone from the P/T roster started getting up over 30 hours, they would simply drop that person down to 10 hours for a week or so, thus keeping their "average" low enough.

Even full-time associates didn't sign up for insurance, which was really the only fringe benefit. At the time I worked there, the cost for group health insurance was around $300/month for family coverage. Even at $8/hour, which was what a "department manager" with a couple years' seniority was making, a biweekly take-home paycheck of approximately $500 didn't leave much after just paying for insurance. Those associates who made less than $8/hour couldn't even begin to pay for it.

In 1997, at the store in Avondale, cashiers started at $6.50; cashier supervisors made $7.50. The federal minimum wage hasn't changed since sometime in the 90s, so I'm sure the wages at WalMart haven't gone up much either.

My dad worked at a WalMart in Vernon Hills, Illinois for 7 years. He was forced out, at age 75 and with 7 years with the company, because they saw him as a workers' compensation liability. He had never filed a claim, but he did have a knee injury that was not work related. After he had surgery on it, and was fully released to return to work, his department manager created a "situation" that ultimately resulted in his being fired for insubordination. After seven years, he was making $8.75 an hour. He found out only months later that the department manager had been instructed to make sure my dad left their employ ASAP because they didn't want to run any risks that he might re-injure his knee at work. (Never mind that under worker's compensation law, the documentation of his pre-existing non-work-related injury would have kept WalMart off the hook anyway. they're just mean bastards.)

Another way WalMart keeps their part-time ranks under control is to make sure there's no overtime for the full-time help. Part-timers generally find themselves relegated to nights and week-ends, with the full-timers (who have more seniority) taking the more comfortable day-time slots. Because overtime is a budgetary no-no, any full-time associate who has for any reason put in a little extra time during the week is therefore ordered to leave early at the end of their week, usually on Friday afternoon. The part-timers would have to make up the slack, often without adequate trained supervision. I remember several holiday-week-end Friday nights where half our departments were staffed by a single part-time associate who had no more than a couple weeks' experience. I can't begin to tell you how many of them walked off the job!

the practice of working "off the clock" is apparently wide-spread in the WalMart empire. I will say that I never saw it happen during my tenure, although I strongly suspect that there were many department managers who routinely put in unpaid time in order to keep their jobs. it never happened to me, partly because I let them know from the beginning that it wouldn't. I don't work without getting paid.

What we did have in our store, however, was the appalling practice of locking the doors at the end of the day and not letting anyone leave -- even if they had punched out and were no longer "working" -- until the manager allowed them to leave. (it was not at that time a 24-hour supercenter; it is now, so I don't know how these policies are enforced, or if they are.) Few associates would complain about this, for fear of losing their jobs, but I did when I started back to school and was not about to sit in the lobby for an hour or two after I had clocked out. I encountered stiff opposition. "If we unlock the door for you, we might have to unlock the door for someone else," I was told. I pointed out that it was a violation of the fire code to lock the door anyway; they didn't care. Nor did they care when two high school students pointed out that labor laws required WalMart not to work them past a certain time at night. Eventually, prior to my leaving the company, the store management did begin allowing those who had legitimately clocked out leave the store.

What the safety violations were regarding the over-night crew that was locked in from approximately midnight until approximately 6 a.m., I have no idea. We do know from news reports, however, that some WalMarts employ contract janitorial services that employ undocumented workers who are locked into the stores and paid a dollar or two a day.
The store I worked at had its own cleaning crew; whether any of them were undocumented, I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised.

The quality of the merchandise is, IMHO, routinely inferior. During the weeks of set-up prior to the opening of the store, I assisted in the furniture department, assembling the display models of bookcases and entertainment centers. Each of the displays was taken from the standard stock; we were unable to find a single undamaged unit of ANYTHING to put on display. This means that each unit we sold was also damaged. Whether they were rejected at the factory and sold to WalMart at a discount, I don't know. i just know that every single one we had in the store was damaged in one way or another. None, of course, were made in the U.S.

We had a lot of close-to-expiration merchandise. In my first days as a cashier, I brought one item that was beyond the expiration date -- I think it was a bottle of Excedrin, but I'm not sure -- to the attention of the department manager. She brought the customer a new one, but the next day, the old stuff was still on the shelf.

Much of the clothing is poorly put together. I do a lot of my own sewing, so I'm very picky. But I also worked at the customer service desk often enough to see just how much of the clothing was returned to WalMart because it fell apart at the first washing. Sadly, many of the people who shop there because they believe they can't afford to shop any where else are also reluctant to bring something back when it disintegrates. Those who routinely return -- and frequently return things way past any reasonable point -- are those who could afford to shop elsewhere but don't.

When I left the store in January of 1999, I think we had six women department managers (out of about 25) and one store assistant manager (out of about 7). Women were routinely passed over for promotion, and any woman who displayed the slightest aggressiveness was deliberately held back. Women were expected to be subservient; and it was worse in that particular store because our manager was (and I think still is) a devout southern baptist from Texas who never hid his religion.

The world is not just about low prices. It's also about decent quality merchandise, reasonable working conditions for workers, and fair distribution of the fruits of their labor. That millions of WalMart associates endure the conditions they do for the shameful wages Walmart pays just so the Walton heirs can live in unholy wealth is, IMHO, sinful.

Tansy Gold, devout orthodox atheist
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Overkil Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. So what's what's being said is.......
Once the existing competition is gone, Walmart can raise its prices back to the competitive norm, or even higher since they can lay claim to a de facto monopoly.

So what you're saying then is that the Walmart in my area has been operating in the red for the last 15 years as a strategy to drive out the Kroeger's that has been in the building next to it for the last 10 years?

And...

That the slave employees at walmart are not allowed to walk over to (a unionized) Kroeger's on their break and apply for a better paying job?

Sorry, but I don't buy those two parts of the arguement......
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Try reading the thread
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 05:32 PM by Robbien
Then come back if you have questions. You bring up points that are not even relevant and state idiotic points as if they are the result of the thread discussion.
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Overkil Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I read through it all......
I just disagree that walmart would lose money for 15 years to drive out what it sees as competition (and I wasn't the first person to mention it in the thread, either - but if that makes it an idiotic point in your view, so be it)

I never said I disagreed with the overall dislike of the company - just those two points.

In my area groups have had more success keeping walmart out by focusing on other negatives like neighborhood blight & decreased property values immediately surrounding the stores.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Okay, I will answer seriously
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 05:53 PM by Robbien
First point. No, Wal-Mart is not losing money by their pricing scheme. All you have to do is look and see that four of the Wal-Mart owners are in the top ten money earners. Their pricing scheme is low because of the slave labor used off shore. They make tons of money on this pricing scheme and at the same time drive out competition who use USA labor products.

Second point. Low wages for USA workers. Yes the Wal-Mart workers today may go to the Kroger across the street and earn more (if there is a job available), but the Kroger across the street is working to lower their wage scale to Wal-Mart standards. In the next year or two, all store workers will be at the Wal-Mart standards.
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Overkil Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Very well said.......
I agree with your first point 100%. On the second point, I think it's a longer process, although Walmart is moving it grocery stores into our area as we speak. We have a locally owned, family grocery chain that is well loved and has always done well keeping up with the national chains, growing at a faster rate than any of the others, and even he's (the owner) scared at this point. He was quoted in the local paper a month ago calling it the economic equivolent to the Holocaust.

I think the biggest problem is that most of the country just doesn't care enough about the arguements listed in this thread to stop shopping at walmart.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. The second point is a long process
But they have been working on it for a long time now. Things are coming to a head pretty quick especially since the loss of overtime bill is close to becoming effective. In addition, the union strike settlements have only gained protection for current workers. They have had to give in on any protection for new workers.

The courts are turning away worker rights suits and big corporations are winning bills which protect them from litigation. The decent wage for a lower income worker is very much in danger.

I have to disagree with you about the main reason people will not stop shopping at Walmart. The disinterest is one part, but the other main reason is that we are in an inflationary period (even though BushCo tries to tell us we are not) and more people have to shop at WalMart just to make the paycheck stretch farther.

What is even more disheartening is that more and more Dollar stores are popping up all over the place for people who think WalMart prices are too high.
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dand Donating Member (636 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. The slaves at Walmart are forced to shop at Walmart;
The company store, they can't afford to shop anywhere else, they are no different than the slaves that worked in the coal mines up until the unions got them out of bondage.All sam's heirs are billionairs and huge Republican contributors. Fuck all of them.
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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. in small towns, people don't have an option
there are long wait lists for unionized jobs at supermarkets. It's not so easy to get in.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
54. Some people do NOT understand what harm a monopoly causes.
People think when a Company has a monopoly it can charge whatever it wants. That is NOT the case, what a Monopoly can do is OVERCHARGE on what it sells, and no one can undercut its price. Thus everyone ends up paying to much.

For example, when Standard Oil controlled all of the oil in the US (Roughly 1870-1912) it did double the price, it charge about 10% more than what the price of oil should have been if you had competition.

The reason for this is if you increase the price to much, demand drops and so does TOTAL profit. Maximum profit is charging the most you can without a significant drop in items sold. Thus a monopoly charges what it can without risking a serious drop in Demand. This is what Walmart does, it lowers in price by low payments to suppliers and low wages (and low taxes when it can get low taxes). It drives out competitors, but keeps the prices low to maximize its marginal profit. Without competitors to keep the margin rate low, Walmart than overcharge what each item should be priced.

Thus monopoly do NOT increase prices extensively, but only marginally. Monopolies want to MAXIMIZE total profit not Maximize marginal profit. This is the harm caused by Walmart, it is using its monopoly power to maximize its profits over and above what Walmart should be charging.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
65. Also People do not know what they are paying for.
One of the problems with Walmart is its refusal to accept responsibility for harms incurred by its customers. Lets me explain more fully.

Under The Common Law (Effective in most states to this day) a person who is invited into someone's property for the possibility of commercial gain is an "invitee" (This is distinguish him from a mere trespasser, who the owner of the property only owe the duty to inform of any hazards made by the Owner of the property AND a "Guest" who PAYS to be one someone's property i.e. a Hotel Guest. Strict liability exist between an "Guest" and the person who was paid for the "guest" to be on his property).

Now an Invitee, is own more duties than a trespasser, but less duties than a Guest. When you go to a store you are an Invitee and as such the owner of the property owes you the duty to be protected from hazards know to the owner of the property, whether the hazard was made by the owner or not. For example if you slip and fall in a store, slipping is an hazard known to any business owner. Since such falls are KNOWN, if you slip and fall than the owner is liable for your injury. On the other hand if you are assaulted by your spouse that is NOT something an owner of a business would expect to happen on his property and thus the owner of the Property is NOT liable for the attack (through the owner of the Property would be liable for any injury caused by his not contacting the Police and Medical personal, for injuries can be expected and treatment of such injuries must be made).

It is often easier to describe what the duties an owner of Property owns a Trespasser or a Guest than an Invitee. Invitees are in a middle ground between the two, an invitee has less rights than an Guest, but more than a Trespasser. What are the duties of Owners of Property to Invitees is often difficult to determine, but it is clear that the owner is liable for any KNOW OR KNOWN ABLE HAZARDS.

This is where Walmart cheats its customers. It refuses to pay damages to invitees unless the Customer sues Walmart. Given the Clientele of Walmart, it is hard to get an attorney to take the case and the attorney will know he has to go to court and even appeal court to get anything.

What this does is (For example) a shopping cart hits a car and causes damages, Shopping carts hitting cars is a known hazard. In most cases people right off the loss, but if the damages is severe they can file a claim against Walmart. Most other retailers will take the information from the client and file a claim with their Insurance company (Who will check out the credibility of the claim and pay up if legit). Walmart will NOT. Now I use the example of the Shopping cart, but one of the most common problem in a Walmart is theft of the a Car and/or attack on the parking lot. In Most stores someone is watching the Parking lot at all time, people do not know it but most store do watch (Not uncommon to do this by camera so that people in the office can see what is going on in the lot. Another way is to centralize the viewing from one location and when the person watching the Video Camera see something he or she calls the store, the police and or anyone else that is needed).

Walmart does NOT watch its parking lots and have had a history fighting anyone who sues them for NOT providing a safe parking lot. This is one way Walmart cuts costs, it shift the liability of the crime from its profits margins to its Customer's paycheck.

I give the parking lot example as the most common method Walmart shifts costs to its customers. Attacks in the store are treated the same way as are attacks between employees.

Thus not only does Walmart refuse to patrol or otherwise take steps to prevent harms to its Customers, it also fights them on any claim. Most retailers if an attack occurs on their property pay up. It does not even get to court (They may be some litigation but the retailer knows that such attacks occur and paying for them are a cost of during business AND why they patrol and/or have video Cameras to catch such attacks). Walmart by NOT video taping anything makes sure there is no RECORD of any assault, it than refuses to deal with any except the ones that make it looks bad in the Press, thus people have to sue. In such lawsuits against other retailers most retailer's attorneys are looking to make some sort of Compromise, Walmart on the other hand does not. Walmart will refuse to accept into evidence the report from the treating Doctor and Hospital (Thus your attorney will have to not only get those records BUT subpoena the Hospital and/or Doctor's Clerk to testify that they are the actual records, this just drives up the cost of litigation). Walmart will send you to its doctor (Which is permitted under the law) and than still refuse to deal if the Doctor agrees with your Doctor as to the problem (and try to send the victim to as many Doctors as possible in the hope one will rule they way). All of this cut into any award that the Victim gets from Walmart for under the law in the US the person suing has to pay for his or her Attorney and Witnesses. Walmart works this way based on two rationales, first by fighting such claims you get to a point where the claim is less than the costs of the Expert Witnesses and attorney's fees AND even if that does not stop the case from proceeding, the Victim will still be under Doctor's Care, have a lack of Income so that sooner or later the Victim's Bills get to much that he or she takes any offer given by Walmart just to save their home.

Walmart also acts the same way on Legitimate Workmen's Compensation Claims (What I mean by this is claims that even its Doctor says are legitimate).

All of these costs do not disappear, if a person can no longer work he will end up on Social Security or SSI (In effect your taxes will pay for his or her care instead of Walmart). If he or she has medical problem but can still "work" if he gets medical treatment, than that treatment will be your taxes for the Victim can not afford the medical treatment so Welfare has to pay for the Treatment.

Walmart has done everything it can to lower process, including shifting as much costs as it can to its customers, supplies and your taxes.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
91. I worked at Wallyworld for 2 years,
year and a half in L&G and the rest in Sporting Goods. Anyways, let me say this, I have worked overtime without pay, the manager would say "Don't worry you can correct it with a time sheet". At Wal-Mart those name tags that employees are wearing have stickers on the back for clocking in on an optical scan machine. BTW: For former employees of the Evil Empire, The bar code on back is your SS# I know, scanned it with a telxon.

Anyways, a Time Sheet is a little piece of paper a little larger than an index card. You fill out the standard stuff, Name, SS#, Day worked, whether its OT or Regular, then have it signed by a Manager. Well I noticed that when I filled out these sheets for overtime, it would not show up on my paycheck. Also I noticed that if I simply stayed clocked in the system and worked over, that my paycheck would only show straight time. At the time I was just out of high-school and didn't worry about it, now I am pissed, they take advantage of those who are ignorant of their own position, its deplorable.

I have a few other things to say about the store, I had to do pricing in my department because one of the Department Managers was incompetent (L&G had Two Department Managers, one for outside, and one for the inside). One time I was to mark up an entire rack of Lawn Chairs, to give an example, the Telxon would display the Wholesale Price, Retail Price, then would have a space to change the Retail Price. For ALL of those Chairs, wholesale price was $1.96 a piece, retail price before I changed it: $16.96 Price I marked it up was: $19.96. Just an example of how cheap the RED CHINESE TRADING COMPANY can get its products from slave labor. BTW: To those who say the people who make these products are somehow better off than they would otherwise. Not necessarily an example of Wal-Mart in particular put of the practice of overseas labor worldwide:

...The idea was to slip under the radar of U.S. quotas and duties, which would cost the manufacturers millions more if the garments were made outside U.S. territory. Garments from Saipan are made from foreign cloth, assembled by foreign workers on U.S. soil and labeled "Made in the USA."
And they are made cheaply. Wages in the factories average about $3 per hour -- more than $2 less than the U.S. minimum wage of $5.15. No overtime is paid for a 70-hour work week. But that's hardly the worst of it. Far away from the swank beachside hotels, luxurious golf courses and the thousands of Japanese tourists snorkling around sunken U.S. Navy landing craft in the clear waters, some 31,000 textile workers live penned up like cattle by armed soldiers and barbed wire, and squeezed head to toe into filthy sleeping barracks, all of which was documented on film by U.S. investigators last year.

The unhappy workers cannot just walk away, either: Like Appalachian coal miners a generation ago, they owe their souls to the company store, starting with factory recruiters, who charge Chinese peasants as much as $4,000 to get them out of China and into a "good job" in "America." Their low salaries make it nearly impossible to buy back their freedom. And so they stay. The small print in their contracts forbids sex, drinking -- and dissent.

Enter Tom DeLay and his Texas Republican sidekick, Dick Armey. When the Clinton administration sought to yank Saipan's factories into the 20th century in 1994, requiring the workers be paid a minimum wage, overtime and their living conditions improved, the island government hired a platoon of well-connected Washington lobbyists, headed by former DeLay aide Jack Abramoff, to block the plan. Abramoff, in turn, personally or through his family, contributed $18,000 to DeLay's campaign coffers. So far, the island government has paid the firm of Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds $4 million for their efforts, records show. They also treated DeLay and Armey to trips to the island, where they played golf, snorkled and made whirlwind visits to factories especially spiffed up for the occasion, according to several accounts.

"Even though I have only been here for 24 hours, I have witnessed the economic success of the Marianas," DeLay told a banquet crowd. As for the critics of the plantation system, DeLay told the dinner crowd darkly, "You are up against the forces of big labor and the radical left."




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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
112. Trying to connect the dots for Pyrogen is wasted effort. He'll ignore
those dots and that emerging picture until the airliner crashes into what is laughingly known as his mind. Lots of freepers do that.

But since I'm here, I'd like to point out that as Robert Reich once said, there was a time in America when corporations understood the three major points of of the unwritten corporate relationship; first, to its shareholders, then to its employees, and most important of all, to the community in general. Now, all the corporations care about is their shareholders. Rampant capitalism is no more beneficial to a nation than rampant communism. One of the reasons Jesus was crucified by the powers that be was because he threw the moneychangers out of the temple. This serves to illustrate the point that ultra-capitalist right-wingers are no more 'Christian' than anyone else. They have proved by their actions that you can blaspheme a man's god and get away with it, but take his profit, and he will crush you.

Somebody tombstone Pyrogen, and quick. He won't like reading this last bit; I have worked hard for everything I have: a producive, fulfilling life, a firmplace in the community, two nice cars and a house in the suburbs, and y'know what? I STILL think there needs to be a social safety net, and fetters on corporations that drive the working poor into destitution and endentured servitude. This is REAL compassion, not the faux shit your buddy B*sh can't even lie convincingly about.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Pyrogen is no longer with us.
He has departed.

He has shuffled off the mortal coil.

He is now an ex-Disruptor!
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Yeah, but he might still be lurking, and if that's the case, Pyrogen,
GOOOOOOOODBYYYYYYYYYYYE, M*****f*****!!!!!!!!!!!

:nuke:
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