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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:33 PM
Original message
Mass graves in Mexico reveal new levels of savagery
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 08:38 PM by Trajan
Source: Washington Post

Mass graves in Mexico reveal new levels of savagery

Written By Nick Miroff and William Booth, Sunday, April 24, 11:47 AM

SAN FERNANDO, Mexico At the largest mass grave site ever found in Mexico, where 177 bodies have been pulled from deep pits, authorities say they have recovered few bullet casings and little evidence that the dead were killed with a gun.

Instead, most died of blunt force trauma to the head, and a sledgehammer found at the crime scene this month is believed to have been used in the executions, according to Mexican investigators and state officials. The search continued Sunday, with state officials warning they expect the count to rise.

They say as many as 122 of the victims were passengers dragged off buses at drug cartel roadblocks on the major highway to the United States.

The mass killings of civilians at isolated ranches 90 minutes south of the Texas border mark a new level of barbarity in Mexicos four-year U.S.-backed drug war.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mass-graves-in-mexi...



I recently spoke to someone at work on this subject, and they swore it was safe to travel to the seaside resort cities .... There is no way I would set foot in Mexico until this is resolved.

That may take many many years ...
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. not until it is legal to grow your own in the USA nt
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Probably not going to solve the problem.
This is about a lot more than weed.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
38. Exactly. the whole weed/drug problem was the first part.
We have moved past the second part, controlling the trade,

Leap frogged over the third part, controlling local officials.

And have landed on the forth part: controlling regions.

Next part?

Topple the government.

We will have our own little Somalia very soon south of the border all the while the repukes yell and scream about illegal immigration.

Mexico is fracturing and all the US government worries about is pot and coke coming across the border.

Mass fucking graves is not a pot or drug issue. This is about raw want of power.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Let's send the DEA and a few Billion $ there..... problem solved...
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm with you----plenty of other nice places.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow. Thanks, buddy.
I had no idea it was this bad.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Horrible. What can be done?
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. So don't go..
it IS safe to go to many parts of Mexico. There are incredibly dangerous parts of the US too, places that I wouldn't step foot in...but if my European or Mexican friends ask if it's safe to come visit the US, I tell them of course.

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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Essentially what I heard from my co-worker ...
Thanks - I wont ...

If my daughters, or friends, or anyone else asked me, I would say they were plumb fucking loco if they chose to enter such a dangerous state of affairs ...

It has always been 'dangerous' to visit because law enforcement there is corrupt and sketchy ... but now it is becoming a killing field ...

Everybody makes choices .... In this case, I would allow 'Pascal's Wager' to inform me:

Either I DONT go, and miss out on some nice views, some great food and culture, and remain safe and secure, OR I do go and possibly become ensnared in this situation, and are tortured and killed in some horrible way, which you apparently do not see as a problem ....

I will let Pascal decide for me ...
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
34. I live there for part of the year...
and study it for a living. Don't dare tell me what I do and don't see as problems. You've no idea what I've seen down there.
Live in your safe, secure little castle.
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axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. I've traveled through out Mexico too. This makes it sound like there
is no where that is safe, but I explain to people all the time that it is safe to travel there. Travel smart - or you are a target in any place you go.

Cheers
Sandy
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rbixby Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. It all depends on what part of the country you go to
The military and federal police presence in Quintana Roo, which is where Cancun, Playa del Carmen, etc are is impressive, and due to that being the tourism center of Mexico, its a very very safe place to be. Its mostly in the border regions that things are sketchy, with cartels fighting over smuggling routes, running illegal immigrants over the border, etc. As far as legalizing marijuana in the states goes though, I think it will have some effect, but not as much as people might hope for. Criminal organizations generally have their fingers in a lot of different pies. How to solve it? Well, having effective prosecution of the leadership of these cartels would be helpful, helping create more jobs for people so they don't get involved in the cartels, etc. But at the end of the day, there's only so much the government can do short of declaring martial law that will really clamp down on things.
Its interesting to see how in Mexico they have people manually doing many of the things we take for granted that are done automatically here. I think its mostly because their focus is on keeping people employed and not just on the bottom line.
In that sense, I think that I like the way Mexico does a lot of things. It may seem excessive to have people manning every single tollbooth on every toll road in the country, but if you think about how many people that employs, and how many people make a living wage doing that instead of taking up with crime and the cartels, its pretty amazing. I wish we had that kind of focus here, instead of just a race to the bottom with prices for everything.
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Thanks, but I'm pretty sure you and I...
are talking to a wall in this case.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. you're completely wrong
there are dangerous places in the US. but nowhere are there mass graves of 100 or so found in back to back months.
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. The odds of ending up, as a tourist, in a mass grave...
are very slim.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. Personally, I try to avoid travel to places where the "odds" are above ZERO.
I don't recall any recent stories about travellers being found in mass graves in Ireland, which is my next vacation destination.

Mexico won't make my to-do list until they get this brutality stamped out.
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Edited: Oh never mind...
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 03:05 PM by a la izquierda
I'm so tired of this shit on DU.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. Yep. I go to Mexico all the time, was there a few months ago.
Been going there for 25 years, have traveled the whole country. Lots of great people, cool places, nice beaches.

Your post is spot on:

"it IS safe to go to many parts of Mexico. There are incredibly dangerous parts of the US too, places that I wouldn't step foot in."
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. The "savagery" is in keeping marijunan illegal.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. I wonder how I would feel watching people being killed with a sledgehammer, knowing my turn was
coming. I have never been in a situation that was so scary and hopeless.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I would think ...
I would rather die trying to escape ...

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Kurmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
41. We went after Milosevic and Saddam for similar reasons, yet do nothing when it's on our border.n/m
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lutherj Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. How does this kind of behavior advance the interests of the drug cartels?
Even a drug cartel must be interested in its PR at some level. I get the impression that these people have simply gone off the deep end. Murder is their drug.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. I have the same question
no benefit the cartels would get killing Innocent people, could it be that there might be another type of organizations doing the killings?

The only groups that would benefit from the killing of Innocent immigrants are those who want to stop immigration to the US.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. They rule by fear.
Bashing people's heads in sends a message to the people they're trying to oppress.
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corpseratemedia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Proof the war on drugs makes things worse!!
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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hola from Mexico! Just going to comment on the last part of your post..
"There is no way I would set foot in Mexico until this is resolved."


_________

I understand the fear, but Mexico is a very large country. As the articles states, most of this violence is confined to an area within 90 minutes of the Texas border. I'd be more concerned about going to Southern Texas than many parts of Mexico. If there was an uptick in gang shootings in Los Angeles, would you be afraid to travel to Colorado? It's the same thing here. Tourists aren't being targeted, and the violence is confined to certain areas. Is it spreading? Yes, and it is unnerving to say the least. There are areas that up until fairly recently were considered safe, so I see your point in that. That said, so much of the country has not a hint of it. For instance, I just came from Puerto Vallarta... went up the coast further to Sayulita, and took a bus over to Guadalajara, where I am staying now. Everything is totally fine here, and not once have I felt in danger. I take the bus down the road that passes the GDL airport where there was one incident a couple of months ago, but there is no trouble and I only take it during the day. Life is going on as usual here, and until the situation worsens, it's much ado about nothing in many areas of Mexico.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Omg. Please wave to the Plaza Libertad for me.
I'd wrestle a drug cartel with my bare hands to be there again. lol

:)
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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Alas, no need to do that . . .
I was just up there 2 hours ago on my walk! I will certainly pass along your wave when I take my feet up that way again (soon).
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Tourists ARE being targeted, if you are driving
I met a traveler who had been pulled over at multiple road blocks on his way from New Mexico to Belize in a VW bug. Only his wits got him through and he had to pay bribes, always to the police in an extra official role.

Another family I heard about went through the same routine and paid a lot to be able to get passage in their van. They had done this route for ten years but will not do it anymore.

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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well I wouldn't drive through the entire country.. no question
That's bound to cross through some very dangerous areas. But also, you are speaking of tourists being targeted by police, which is an age old tradition in Mexico.

My point is that there are many areas of Mexico that have virtually no problems right now. Keeping to those areas is easy and safe.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Haven't people always paid bribes? We have, anyway.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 11:01 PM by EFerrari
Is it different than that now? I haven't been down for about ten years since I took my ex, el giganton, to Vallarta to paint ceramic turtles.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. El Giganton, sounds like a lucha libre wrestler!
who paints as a hobby?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Mexico is a big and varied country
And looking at the murder rates in the Yucatan, it appears to be amazingly safe down there.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. are there mass graves being discovered in America?
with hundreds of bodies? do tell
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. There is no war on drugs in the America neither n/t
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. there isn't?
there sure are a lot of people in jail for drug offenses
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I have not seen any soldier inspecting vehicles for drugs
there is people in jail for managing small quantities of drugs not for exporting them
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. Well that's the cause, but pointing out what is causing Mexicos violence is not the same thing as
disproving that they have a high level of violence.

Discovering why people are being murdered in no way negates the fact that they are being murdered.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Before the war on drugs, how many mass graves were found? n/t
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. You seem to think I'm disputing the cause
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 12:13 PM by WatsonT
I'm not.

But if your goal is to not be murdered then the reason everyone is being murdered is less important than the fact that people are being murdered in making your plans.

It's like if I say I don't want to go in to a burning house and you argue that it was caused by faulty wiring. The cause isn't my concern at that moment.
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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. no, but there aren't in most parts of Mexico either, and that's my point.
The degree of violence in the dangerous areas is certainly higher, and so for that point perhaps the illustration of LA/Colorado isn't a perfect one, but the distance is still the distance. There are no mass graves (or graves for that matter) in places like Puerto Vallarta, etc.

Don't kick my ass!
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
48. +1
But there are some on DU who simply don't care what you (or I or anyone else) says to the contrary. They "know," and that's all there is to it.
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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. This thread made me doubt myself enough to check what country I'm actually in.
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 09:19 PM by Krakowiak
Yep. Mexico it is.

Crime taking place 600 miles away is evidently the same thing as just up the street when it comes to Mexico. Funny, I've lived in neighborhoods in the states that are considered safe where there are drive by shootings going on mere BLOCKS away, but in Mexico, it seems no amount of distance is enough to keep the bogeyman at bay.

I ride the bus and use my feet everywhere I go, and not once I have I felt threatened. But I understand that personal experience is not on the same level as the expert knowledge of those who haven't traveled here during this time when it comes to the subject of, well, traveling here during this time.
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. My mom goes on a vacation once a year with her girlfriends.
Last summer (2010), she went to Mexico. I had zero reservations about her going. She would be (and was) fine in her resort.


Now, as for the case of Guadalajara...if you haven't been, you MUST go to La bodeguita del Medio. Amazing mojitos, a giant Che mural, and good Cuban food. Also, try the birria, which you can get in any good food stand in the centro area. I'm a vegetarian, but the first time I went to Mexico, I switched to meat because I didn't think I'd be able to eat enough. The beef birria is great, the goat is even better.
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vanbean Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
49. I don't know about that. When I was in high school I was an exchange student in Los Mochis
which is not too far from where you are now. At that time in was a city of 80,000 and they had only had one murder in many, many years. I still have friends there, and they tell me it is terrible there with many, many drug related killings. They are afraid to go to certain areas of that beautiful city.
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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Los Mochis is 600 miles away from Guadalajara - about as close as Compton, CA is to Salt Lake City
That's hardly what I would call close.
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vanbean Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. I would call that close. It is on the same coast, and 600 miles is nothing in Mexico.
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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. A world of "less government"
Wait, Isn't this border area becoming an Ayn Randian paradise? Its a libertarian dream. No rules.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
35. Exactly - this is the invisible hand guiding the market.
Apparently John Galt was a coke-dealer.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
40. I get what you're going for but in a sense it is run by several competeting entities
that all function somewhat like a government.

Cartels are a form of authority, granted a horrible one. And they are more or less in charge along the border.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. Not exactly. The army and government are in it...
...all the way.

Look at the casualty numbers, for one thing.
How many civilians have been killed, how many soldiers.

Informative interview:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/8/11/charles_bowden_on...
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. Exactly! this speaks volumes of the Mexican government
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LetTimmySmoke Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. This is the price of prohibition.
This one is turning out just like the last one. (1920s)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
37. Quien sabe? Maybe the authorities is Mexico killed a bunch of drug
dealers, buried them, later dug up the bodies, said drug dealers killed them, and thereby solved a problem their own way in what they view as a win-win scenario.

I'm am not saying that this is the case, or that this ethically correct, but only that in Mexico, this might actually happen.

It is a mistake to think of Mexico from a gringo cultural perspective. Once you cross that border, you are in a whole 'nother world, a world vastly different, culturally, politically, socio-economically, and otherwise, from the US, than it appears on the surface.

Things operate differently in Mexico, and anyone that has spent considerable time off the beaten path in Mexico knows this. Much often depends on la Mordida when dealing with law enforcement, and la Mordida can be a small bribe from a tourist to take care of a traffic ticket, to million dollar subsidies from the US government. Lots of corrupcin.

La Mordida is much less common on the tourist scale nowadays, but on levels above that...who knows?
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Hestia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
42. I'm telling ya'll, this has everything to do with the Santa Muerta cult - it is bloodthirsty
and demands more and more. The priests have tapped into something ugly and unfortunately it has settled here too - prison shows, disrespect for judicial system, etc.
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