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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 01:48 AM
Original message
Iraqi Bond Breaks As Fighting Rages, Tribesmen Turn Hostile....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4142-2004Apr1...

Iraqi Bond Breaks As Fighting Rages
Tribesmen Turn Hostile to U.S. Troops

By Karl Vick

Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, April 12, 2004; Page A15


BAGHDAD, April 11 -- Every week for nearly a year, Col. Peter Mansoor has gathered with proud men who move down the sidewalks of downtown Baghdad in flowing robes, tribal leaders in a crippled capital that occupier and occupied were trying to rebuild together.

On Sunday morning, they met for the last time. "I take my leave of you," Mansoor said. "I was hoping it would be in happier times."

After eleven months in the city, Mansoor's 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division was about to redeploy. The commander said he did not yet know where. But substantial U.S. forces were heading south from Baghdad to retake cities shaken by a new wave of violent rebellion.

The meeting began cordially enough in the tattered ballroom of the Ishtar Sheraton Hotel. Greetings of "Peace be upon you" and "May God bless your footsteps" were exchanged. But polite discussion descended rapidly into complaints, then accusations, and finally threats. Both sides were talking -- mostly past one another.
..more..

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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. "the path to peace, or the pool of bloodshed," he said. "Choose wisely."
Edited on Mon Apr-12-04 01:59 AM by Eye and Monkey
Perhaps we have a problem with testosterone.

The US military's representative said the following to the tribal chiefs:

"We can go forward on the path to peace, or we can deepen the pool of bloodshed," he said.

"Choose wisely."

(From the cited article)

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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Submit or die
This is what a powerful military power says to an inferior one. It's just what they do and damn public opinion.

I don't blame the soldier (U.S. military representative) for talking in stark terms; being diplomatic is a diplomat's job.

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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It doesn't work.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. sounds like a ninja mystic
if there is such a thing.
are men hard wired to love the verbage of war?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. COL Mansoor was ignorant of major events in Iraq
Perhaps he should stop watching Faux and pay more attention to the BBC or Al-Jazeera if he wants to know what is going on. I also encourage him to read Robert Fisk's dispatches from Iraq.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Just ignorant. He did not seem to listen to a word being said by the
Iraqis in this meeting. I imagine tensions are high, but there was no diplomacy, no empathy on his part in this meeting as reported in this article. Granted, that may be too much to expect from a military commander, but then why have this type of meeting? :shrug:

"When coalition forces came to Iraq they came as liberations, not occupiers," said a man in a billowing robe. "But our people have two guides: One is religion and religious leaders, the other is the tribe. You talk so much about developing the country, rehabilitating the country, but you have made so many mistakes. You opened the borders to saboteurs and mercenaries.

"It's all your fault."

"Is there a question in there?" Mansoor asked.

"It is not a question. This is what I think. You introduced the saboteurs."

"The Mahdi Army," Mansoor said again, "fired the first shot."

"Why are you talking about the Mahdi Army?" shouted a man in the back. "All Iraqis are Mahdi Army!"

Before the meeting fell apart completely, the moderator read out "The Final Statement of the Extraordinary National Conference of the Non-Governing Council Iraq Tribal Chiefs." Its nine points demanded "abandoning the logic of force," the intervention of the United Nations, a ban on the use of warplanes "for the purpose of terrifying people," and the release both of innocent Iraqis and kidnapped foreigners.

Mansoor had the last word.

"I will not sit by and see everything we have worked for in the last year thrown away by the actions of a violent few," the commander said. "It gives me no pleasure to use force. But we will, if receiving fire, defend ourselves by force and defend the Iraqi people from those who would seize power by force.



ARGGH He wasn't listening again!! :grr: :nuke:

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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. Not very encouraging
The failure of Iraqi troops to assist in imposing order (which I don't expect) and the loss of support of tribal leaders is a bad indication of things to come.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. We lost this war!
The only remaining question is how many years will pass before the American people and government recognize that and bring the troops home.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. So many things wrong from the outset
The fraudulent ideological basis, Straussian lies meant to contradict the verdict of history. That verdict that nationalism is triumphant and that colonialism is a 19th Century artifact apparently wasn't learned in Vietnam.

All the technical mistakes would fill a book. Shinseki was right, but whether his approach could have succeeded is questionable. His position basically was that we didn't have enough forces to prevail in this conflict. He didn't want to go, because this outcome was forseen.
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Stone_Spirits Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. yes simply stated
we lost the minute we started. hate to mention Vietnam again but....
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oh, please, be my guest!
hate to mention Vietnam again but....

At least in Vietnam we had many South Vietnamese on our side. Chalabi is the only Iraqi on our side.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I mentioned Vietnam the week after 9/11, Stone_Spirits
"We'd better put some thought into how we retaliate, or we'll end up with a war that has VIET NAM's fingerprints all over it."
--rocknation, late September 2001
:headbang:
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. Accordingly, all hell is about to break loose - must read
This article about sums up the feelings of both sides.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. "send Saddam Hussein back to Iraq" (Haaretz)
The resemblance between our invasion of Lebanon and America's invasion of Iraq is amazing. We wanted to create a new order in Lebanon; they wanted to create a new order in Iraq. Within a short time, in both cases, the Shia had woken up and the invading armies became targets of attack. We pulled out without achieving a thing and Bush is still there, mired in a sea of blood from which no good will come. If I were him, I'd send Saddam Hussein back to Iraq - he would know how to sort this mess out in no time.

Commentator in Haaretz - Israel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3617889.stm
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I agree wholehearted IG - Thanks also for the link
Just wish more were into the welfare of humanity.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The Iraq quagmire is having repercussions in Israel as well
I posted an article about that in Editorials:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Many Israelis, who are not RWs, see our incursion into Iraq like our version of their Lebanon invasion and occupation. They fear that our "blunders" will lead to a hostile Iraq far more dangerous than it was under Saddam.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I see this whole quagmire going from bad to worse -
IMHO, if the U.S. starts to lose large numbers of troops, I'm almost certain that junior will be pressured to use nukes.

If the Israelis are up against the wall, the fuse will be a short one, especially now that Henry Kissinger is running around in circles giving free advice.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. "junior will be pressured to use nukes" ?
Junior should be pressured to resign NOW!



http://www.votetoimpeach.org/
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Nukes - agreed they might be that stupid, but what good would it do?
Using nuclear weapons against a popular insurrection has a Monty Pythonesque black humor aspect, but even they must know how stupid it would be. Besides enraging the world, what would be left to rule over?
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's deja vu all over again.
So much for PNAC's getting rid of the Vietnam Syndrome.
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indypaul Donating Member (896 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. Think it goes
"When you are up to your ass in alligators.
You forget the objective was to drain the swamp."

Question is, how and to whom do you turn over a
civil war? Three choices, Kurds, Suni or
Shiites. Take your choice but it is still a
civil war and we are stuck right dab in the
middle through the fault of a flawed policy and
a miserable failure for a leader.
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