Around 600 Iraqis Dead in Falluja Fighting-Hospital

[Barrett808]

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - More than 600 Iraqis have been killed in fighting in Falluja since U.S. forces launched an offensive against Sunni guerrillas in the town a week ago, the head of the main hospital said on Sunday.

"I would say more than 600 have been killed, but the number may not be absolutely accurate because many families have already buried their dead in their gardens," Rafa Hayad al-Issawi, the director of Falluja's hospital, told Reuters.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040411/ts_nm/iraq_falluja_dead_dc

[Barrett808]

1. A picture of grief

An Iraqi shouts his anger over the grave of his son, buried in a soccer field turned into a cemetery in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Sunday, April 11, 2004. More than 600 Iraqis have been killed in the fighting in Fallujah the past week, the head of the city's hospital said Sunday. (AP Photo/Abdel Kader Saadi)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040411/481/bag11304111816&e=2&ncid=

[mobuto]

2. Yes, but how many of those 600 were fighters and how many

were non-combatants? The distinction is somewhat important.

[tinanator]

3. to who?

the apologists for an invading force of slaughterers? get help.

[mobuto]

4. To whom? To me.

If the United States Marine Corps shoots people shooting at it, I don't care. If they shoot people not shooting at it, I do care.

[tlcandie]

6. So killing women and children with guns .. who are targeting their

oppressors and murderers is okay with you? Even after asking yourself why on earth women and children would take to caring and using guns, it is still okay to kill them because they are firing at us even though we are invaded and occupied them based on a lie?

Is there a point when enough is enough and you walk away, refusing to kill for the sake of killing? Or is it us against them always?

I'm not jumping on you, I just can't understand this reasoning...it is beyond me. It just seems to me that somewhere in someone's heart or mind their conscious would kick in and say,

"What in the hell am I doing killing women and children and even better still why do they feel the need to pick up a gun and target me?"

This would be a HUGE hint to me that something is terribly backwards and that the reason...freedom, liberation, democracy...I was sent into this country has just been annihalated beyond all reasoning.

[BeFree]

7. I' ll jump for ya

It's ok for mobuto to condone killing people on DU, but its' not ok to make fun of mobuto.

Go ahead, mobuto, click alert. I'm so sick of your killing comments my honor demands that I confront you!

[mobuto]

13. I don't kill any comments.

The moderators do. I'm not a moderator. When my posts violate DU rules, they get pulled just as yours do.

[Character Assassin]

9. It's OK with me.

So killing women and children with guns .. who are targeting their oppressors and murderers is okay with you? Even after asking yourself why on earth women and children would take to caring and using guns, it is still okay to kill them because they are firing at us even though we are invaded and occupied them based on a lie?

Yawn. Please cite evidence from the article that is even remotely relevant to your claim (Hint: there isn't any).

Is there a point when enough is enough and you walk away, refusing to kill for the sake of killing? Or is it us against them always?

Irrelevant to the matters at hand. Soldiers (or, in this case, Marines) engaged in combat with armed enemies do not simply 'walk away'. That you would attempt to imply that they should is very telling.

[BeFree]

17. Are you implying that Iraqi people are our enemies?

And, I'd bet, you'd say we are there to bring them democracy, eh?

[Character Assassin]

20. Are you assuming that I'm implying?

Of course you are. It doesn't become you.

I deal in facts, not conjecture, and I'm implying nothing of the sort. You, however, are inferring far, far too much.

[BeFree]

21. Just using your words, ca

And all I did was ask. You can't give a straight answer and that means you are out of your league. No assumptions or implications. You are out of your league.

Are you implying Iraqis are our enemies? Yes, or No?

[Character Assassin]

29. Telling lies becomes no one.

Are you implying Iraqis are our enemies? Yes, or No?

I refuse to play your simpleton, kindergarden game.

SOME Iraquis are most assuredly our enemies. MOST are not.

You have not exhibited to me the ability to discern between the two. My answers have been as straight as any you're likely to get around here, but then, I play in no leagues, I've experienced combat, and I see it every day, in my current occupation.

Are you implying you are utterly out of your depth, and you have no idea what you're talking about when we get past the headlines?

Yeah. I thought so.

[BeFree]

33. Hahahaha, The great ca stoops low and blows..

...the answer to a simple question. Yer a bush league player, ca.
Can't even answer a simple question. But, really, you did, you just don't want to admit your answer because it is so fallacious it would just shove you deeper and deeper... you assasinated yourself!! LOL.

[Character Assassin]

42. And yet still remains miles above those who refuse to utilize

logic and reason, such as yourself.

Your question is irrelevant to the matter at hand, and you remain incabaple of understanding that.

Oh well.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

35. I've noticed that your "Yawn" is most of what you offer for rebuttal. n/t

[tlcandie]

25. You know .. I was only asking a question... as I stated...

I wasn't jumping on him...I was merely asking a question. I'm glad that what I said regarding walking away was 'telling' to you because your shameless attempts at character assassination are quite telling as well.

I'm not here to argue or to defend myself because with some here there is no defending...they are beyond reason and hope of compassionate conscious life within their beings.

HINT: There was a picture posted on DU not too long ago of young boys and women with guns... :think:

[Character Assassin]

43. I'm sorry you refuse to recognize reality.

I have made no attempts to assissinate your character, shameless or otherwise, and to believe any sentinent being is 'beyond reason and hope of compassionate conscious life within their beings.' is the very definition of foolishness.

There was a picture posted on DU not too long ago of young boys and women with guns... :think:

And if those weapons are pointed with intent at US Marines, those women and boys need to be shot.

It's that simple.

[mobuto]

15. The Marines have to do what the Marines have to do

to avoid getting killed. If an eight year old girl is aiming a rocket propelled grenade at a Marine, then its really truly terrible, but the Marine is justified in shooting her. I would certainly hope that shooting her would be the very last and only resort, but if it did happen, the only person you could blame would be the horrible individual who gave that girl the weapon. You cannot expect the Marines to sit still and allow themselves to be killed. Nor can you give the Iraqis a pass if - as they are doing - they put weapons in the hands of very young children with the deliberate aim of creating martyrs.

[BeFree]

19. What about aircraft strafings?

To avoid a marine from getting killed is quite simple. Bring him home. Not only will he stay alive, the Iraqi innocents will too. Real simple.

[mobuto]

32. No its really not that simple

Because this country has made the decision that it would be worse to withdraw now from Iraq than it would be to stay. Given that decision, the Marines have to make choices within the parameters set. I don't think straffing civilian areas is a smart move, but targeted fire certainly is.

Not only will he stay alive, the Iraqi innocents will too.

Virtually every Member of Congress disagrees - they believe, as I do, that at this point, more Iraqi innocents would die if we withdrew than if we stayed. Whether or not that is the case, it isn't for Marines on the ground to decide.

[BeFree]

34. That's a cop-out mobuto

.. a republican cop-out. Since some leaders decided to do so and so, mobuto goes along with it and even bends over backwards to be more accomodating to their ill-planned adventure.

I've always found that covering up a mistake ends up making things even worse. That going back and starting anew is the best course. Ya know, mobuto, you are so close to repenting for supporting the mistakes, that you just may do it yet, but I doubt it. You support the establishment way too much to ever really question them. Oh well.

[saigon68]

45. Hey Boy

You realy are here to stir up trouble aren't You

[Barrett808]

5. Almost certainly non-combatants

Recent reports seem to imply that the insurgents are not taking their wounded/dead to the hospital, field hospitals, or makeshift clinics.

[leftchick]

8. Here is someone recently wounded, he does not look like a "combatant"!

Wounded two year old Iraqi boy Ali Abdullah is carried by his father to a clinic after he was hurt by an overnight blast that destroyed their neighbour's home in the besieged town of Falluja April 11, 2004. REUTERS/Akram Saleh

[Character Assassin]

11. So who shot that child?

[leftchick]

12. I don't know CA... perhaps you are the best one to judge?

as usual?

[Character Assassin]

14. I'm not judging, I'm asking. And you're assuming.

If you know even the slightest thing about combat, and I'm comfortable that you don't, there is no way whatsoever from that picture to know either (a) the extent of that child's injuries or (b) how that child got them.

[leftchick]

24. so let us not show any pictures because...

a)unless they are dead what is the point of showing someone injured because the injuries may not be "extensive".
b)just because there are now 3 US Marine reigiments now in place is no reason to think the Iraqi injuries may have been inflicted by the US.

:puke:

[Character Assassin]

26. So you have nothing concrete, whatsoever, to offer

In defence of your implications.

Thanks for clearing that up. Feel free to supply such when you're able to do so.

[Dr Fate]

37. One thing is for sure- the child is harmed...

...and it is highly likely that it is a result of our war/occupation/what-ever in Iraq.

If we are to believe the news, he suffered from a "blast"...

Whether an Iraqi or Coalition man "shot" him, or whether the child was harmed from debri, rubble, whatever- is of no concern to me.

Our goal was to make Iraq safer for them and more importantly, for US. Hope it comes true.

[Eye and Monkey]

48. It seems the Geneva Convention might cover the essence of your question.

Section I

Protection against the effects of hostilities

1. Fundamental principle and basic rules

The fundamental principle on which the law of armed conflicts is based is expressed as follows: In any armed conflict, the right of the Parties to the conflict to choose methods or means of warfare is not unlimited. Two basic rules follow from this principle. The first prohibits the use of weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause unnecessary injury. The second, in order to ensure respect and protection for the civilian population and civilian property, obliges the Parties to the conflict to distinguish at all times between the civilian population and combatants, as well as between civilian property and military objectives and to direct their operations only against military objectives.

and

3. Protection of civilian persons and property

The prohibition of attacks on civilian persons and civilian property includes all acts of violence, whether committed in offence or defence. Attacks or threats of violence intended to terrorize the civilian Population are also prohibited.

The prohibition includes attacks launched indiscriminately. In particular these are attacks which are not directed or which cannot be directed, because of the methods or means of combat employed, at a military objective. Also considered as indiscriminate are attacks which treat as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian property. The same applies to attacks which cause incidental civilian losses and damage excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians must not be used to try to shield military objectives from attack or to shield, favour or impede military operations.

The Fourth Convention provides for the conclusion by Parties to a conflict of local agreements for the evacuation from besieged or encircled areas of wounded, sick, disabled and old people, children and women in labour, and for the passage of ministers of all religions, medical personnel and equipment on their way to such areas.

The Protocol forbids starving civilian populations. Objects indispensable to the survival of civilian populations, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works must neither be attacked, destroyed, removed nor rendered useless. A belligerent may depart from this rule only on its own territory and only if imperative military necessities require it to do so.

The environment itself must be protected against widespread, long-term and severe damage. Methods or means of warfare likely to cause such damage and thereby jeopardize the health or survival of the population are forbidden.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList104/3DC51D580C436AEAC1256B660059520D

[lumpy]

10. Probably the same number. Mobuto, as the

as the revolutionary fighters fighting against the Red Coats during the American Revolution.

[mobuto]

16. So you really believe Muqtada al-Sadr's forces are fighting

for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Do you believe that they believe that all men and women are created equal and that they are endowed with unalienable rights?

[BeFree]

22. gee, mobuto, can ya get your allies lined up?

Sadr is a Shia. Fallujah is mainly Sunni.

Still, yeah, life, liberty, and happiness. That's what they're fighting for. No doubt. Pray tell, mobuto, what are we fighting for?

[atreides1]

38. Maybe Their Version of It

What universal rule states that the only vision is that perpetuated by the USA.

Do you believe that everyone in the US believes that all men and women are created equal and that they are endowed with inalienable rights? If you buy that then you're not as smart as I give you credit for.

Our vision of freedom may not be theirs, and forcing it on them doesn't seem to be working very well.

Did Proconsul Bremer show his belief in democracy when he shut down al Sadr's newspaper, because it was anti-coalition. Will General Kimmitt when he comes home on leave stand out in public and call for the American people to denounce racist and bigoted organizations, and groups that might be a danger to the American people, like he called on the Iraqi people to denounce al Sadr and other groups that the coalition forces are now fighting?

We don't know what they believe in, we know that al Sadr probably has a vision of Iraq being the same as Iran, an Islamic government.
It seems that some would prefer that Iraq revert to its original make-up before the British interfered. And just maybe they can form a democracy, but it has to be on their terms not the US's.

[dai]

40. Neither did the fighters in the American Revolution.

eom.

[NeoConsSuck]

39. Yahoo gave only a synopsis.

If you click the following link, you'll get more info.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-11-fallujah-casualties_x.htm

From that link:

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) — More than 600 Iraqis have been killed in Fallujah since Marines began a siege against Sunni insurgents in the city a week ago, most of them women, children and the elderly, the head of the city's hospital said Sunday.

------
Now, who would I believe? Hmmm. A hospital director or a US military commander.

Mobuto, I have no doubts over who you believe.

[saigon68]

46. Lot of dead children killed by whoever?

[cal04]

18. Update from Yahoo

Truce Struck in Falluja, 600 Iraqis Reported Dead


7 minutes ago

By Fadel Badran

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Civilians fled Falluja on Sunday when a truce halted a week of fierce fighting between U.S. forces and Sunni Muslim guerrillas in which more than 600 Iraqis had been killed.



A British contractor seized by suspected guerrillas six days ago was freed, raising hopes for other foreign hostages still being held. An unidentified negotiator told Japan three kidnapped Japanese civilians were safe, Kyodo news agency said.


A masked man said on a video tape aired by Al Jazeera eight other hostages -- three from Pakistan, two Turks, an Indian, a Nepali and one from the Philippines -- had been freed. No independent confirmation of the releases was available.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040411/ts_nm/iraq_dc

[floda]

23. the worst is that

the insurgents who killed the 4 contractors in Fallujah have not even been found yet. Locals say they didn't even came from Fallujah. Now wasn't the Fallujah raid meant to punish the ones who did that? So it seems it's been a collective punishment after all

[Robbien]

30. Welcome to DU! floda

And yes, it appears as if Bush&Co does not care if they get the actual killers of the mercenaries, he is just giving his rabid right base a show of force for which they have been clamoring.

Stupid move that.

[Robbien]

27. Why am I reminded of this comment when reading this thread

from an anti-DU site:

DU is absolutely the easiest place to stir up. Those guys are like bees. You shoulda seen what I did to them during the primaries. It was great.

Sad that people get their jollies from making other people irritated.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

36. Bingo. Some of us learn to recognize the voices...

[number6]

28. I would bet most of those 600 are noncombatants

all for 4 mercenaries..

[Mari333]

31. email from reporter in Baghdad, April 10th...

The following series of emails came to me from eyewitnesses to the civilian
uprising against the occupation of Iraq. Paola Gaspiroli is an Italian woman
from Occupation Watch and Bridges to Baghdad whom I met in Baghdad in
January. She is devoted to humanitarian work and spreading the truth of her
experiences in Iraq. I trust Paola's words as she writes:

Dear All,
I want to stay in Iraq but I believe its best to leave. It's getting really
dangerous as Italians are being targeted. (Italy has a 2,500 plus force
including Carabinieri occupying Nassiriyah. The town has been subject to a
number of resistance attacks including a devastating attack on the police
station: four soldiers, one civilian, one documentary film maker, twelve
Carabinieri police and eight Iraqis were killed.)
An 'elastic' sheikh ('elastic' because his interpretations of Islam and
moral conduct is flexible) in Sadr City told me I should leave as even he
can't control his people. He says foreigners are targeted and already six
foreigners are hostage, four of whom are Italian security firm employees
kidnapped from their car.
Some Iraqis and NGO people are driving back and forth into Falluga to bring
people out. We've not been able to help as the situation is getting much
worse.

Below journalist Ewa Jasiewicz describes present events in Iraq where a
great many innocent people are dying yet only a small part is reported in
the media. Ewa worked with Voices in the Wilderness and Occupation Watch in
Iraq, lived in Basra and Baghdad for eight months as well as in Palestine's
Jenin camp for six months. She speaks Arabic, got back from Iraq two months
ago, and is in regular contact with friends in Basra and Baghdad. On Friday,
April 10, she spoke to friends in Baghdad who have been ferrying the injured
from Falluja to Baghdad for the past three days. They report ambulances have
been barred from entry into the blood-drenched city.
Please spread the information below as widely as possible, and act upon it.

Iraq Solidarity Action - Resist the Massacre in Falluga
Falluga is under siege. At least 470 people have been killed, and over 1,700
injured in the last few days. American military snipers are following and
discouraging ambulances by firing on them.
There has been no ceasefire. Instead, American forces told people they have
eight hours to leave. Many left but are now they're trapped and under attack
in the desert. Iraqi people are trying to bring them supplies as well as
support civilians in Falluga.
Baghdad was quiet today except for Abu Ghraib in west Baghdad, where a vast
prison is bursting at the seams with over 12,000 prisoners. An American
convoy was attacked there and nine soldiers injured and 27 kidnapped. No
newswires are reporting this incident.
My team, Bridges to Baghdad is leaving. We have flights booked from Amman
but, first, tomorrow a team will go to Sadr City -- fifty people have been
killed there -- to deliver medicines.
People were told to leave Falluga and now thousands are trapped in the
Desert. There is a 13 km long convoy of people trying to reach Baghdad.
The American military is dropping bombs -- everything, everything, they have
-- on families, children, old men and women in the dessert. Even after
agreeing there'd be a ceasefire I saw planes and helicopters fly over and
drop cluster bombs and new mortars that jump three to four meters. People
lie dead in the streets. Hospitals, too, are attacked.
Fallugans are fighting back but we're expecting the main attack in 24-48
hours when the military takes the town street by street.
Everyone here is going crazy. It's not safe for foreigners and a Sheikh from
Falluga says he can't guarantee my safety and that it will get more crazy. I
think foreigners will start getting killed soon as people get more
desperate. As their families, houses, pets, everything is bombed they'll
fight back ferociously.
The American military says this operation will last only five days and that
it's drawing to an end as they need troops on the fronts breaking out all
over the country. But no one is safe. We'll probably be killed tomorrow.

Falluga, a city with a population of 232,000), is now undergoing a trauma
similar to the massacre in Jenin but with a larger, more powerful, better
armed military that is carpet bombing the town. We have to do what we can in
solidarity with the dying, the bereaved, and those still struggling,
defending, and fighting back. There is honor and dignity in resisting and
the Iraqi intifada is raging. Iraq is on fire. We cannot be silent. Remember
the massacre in Jenin. Never Again. Stop the massacre in Falluga.
Please help, get people to protest, ask them to go to the Embassies, to the
streets, to do something. This is a massacre. We need world attention on
this. I have photos and film but I need to get it out of the country. Do
everything you can. Meanwhile, we're going back.
Here's what you can do:
Demonstrate, organize, protest, occupy; block roads to catch people's
attention; practice civil disobedience; stop working; prevent B52s from
taking off at Fairford Military base.
Resist! Take action in your neighborhoods; print leaflets; paint banners.
Take to the streets. Even small groups can change this situation.
Learn more:
Find addresses of US Embassies in London, Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff and
complain (seven hundred more British troops have been flown in to quell the
uprising in the South.): http://www.usembassy.org.uk/ukaddres.html provides
Campaign for the Accountability of American Bases:
http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/caab/ has a list of the locations of all the main
US air bases used in the UK.
Find a full list of arms companies, including BAE Systems, and Lockheed
Martin, that have been principal supplies of weapons of mass destruction for
the war on Iraq: http://www.caat.org.uk/links/companies.php
For tips on confronting arms companies see Campaign Against the Arms Trade:
http://www.caat.org.uk/support/confronting-companies.php

Read Al Jazeera for breaking news in Iraq that mainstream media won't
report: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

Create leaflets with the following text:
A massacre is taking place in Falluja, a town currently resisting the
occupation of Iraq and regularly pummeled by F16 fighter jets and Apache
Helicopter gun ships.
Well over 470 civilians have been killed this week, and over 1,700 injured.
This toll will rise as the military cordon closes around the town.
Eyewitnesses report that ambulances trying to enter the town are fired upon.
Bodies lie dead in the streets. Hospitals are attacked and medical supplies
and personnel are in short supply. People from all over the country are
attempting to get into Falluja to evacuate the injured with private cars.
People are donating food, medical supplies, and water to those fleeing.

At this time (10/04/04) a 13km column of Falluja residents, fleeing their
bomb-smashed town, is trapped in the desert and surrounded by US troops.
Eyewitnesses report firing upon elderly men, women and children.
US soldiers stationed near the town are in an impossible situation. Now that
the brewing discontent, frustration, humiliation, and mounting rage against
the occupation has exploded against the occupation, blood of American
soldiers is being shed for the market-profit-chasing corporate interests of
the US and UK governments.
The climate in Iraq has moved on from protest to resistance, and now to
insurgency. Demonstrations have been taking place every day all over the
country since the occupation began, with protestors ranging from students to
pensioners, unemployed, women, former soldiers and children.
Here is a brief list of Iraqi grievances and objections to the occupation:
* The Coalition Provisional Authority is re-writing Iraqi law. For example,
Order 30, Salaries and Employment Conditions for Civil Service Employees,
sets the minimum wage for Iraqi Public Sector workers at 69,000 ID ($40 per
month - less than half the recommended wage of a sweatshop worker in a free
trade zone neighboring Iran); Order 39, Foreign Investment, allows 100%
foreign ownership - privatization - and slashes the highest income tax rate
from 45% to 15%.
* There is a recycling and re-empowering of a neo-Baathist ruling elite
* There is a re-training and re-hiring of over 10,000 Baathist intelligence
agents.

Occupying forces label this revolt in support of the anti-occupation cleric
Muqtada al Sadr but it is a more widespread, uncontrollable, inchoate, and
varied than that. It is not just Islamic, not just nationalist, not just
Baathist. Instead, it is a general struggle against the Occupation.
Stand in solidarity with the people in Iraq. Join the protest against the
bloody massacre in Falluja, which will spread if the occupation armies
continue unchecked and without international challenge. Stop the ongoing war
on Iraq. Get troops out of Iraq; Bring 'em home now!

For views from the British military perspective see: "US tactics condemned
by British officers: Senior British commanders have condemned American
military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate. By Sean
Rayment, Defense Correspondent (Filed: 11/04/2004)

Susan Galleymore, Mother Speak (www.motherspeak.org), traveled to Iraq in
January/February of this year to talk to Iraqi mothers.

[bloom]

47. thanks for that

:(

It's very sad.

[Barkley]

49. Falluja doesn't sound "pacified" to me ...

I wonder if US GIs, private contractors and other foreigners feel safer now?

Thanks Mari333 for this news/ POST.

My prayers are with you and your family.

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!

[minkyboodle]

50. Thanks

That is a great series of articles Mari. My thoughts are with you and your son.
Scott

[Barrett808]

41. A reporter asked if US forces were telling doctors to keep bullets...

...extracted from the bodies of victims, to determine what weapons were responsible for the wounds. This was at a press briefing last week. Kimmitt said he had not heard anything like that.

[daleo]

44. Kimmet would just claim insurgents were using stolen U.S. weapons

There is always one more lie to tell, to get them out of a jam, is how they see it. After all, the entire foundation of the war is a lie.