3-Month Nightmare Emerges in Rape Inquiry (11-year-old girl from Cleveland, Tex.)

[alp227]

Source: The New York Times

CLEVELAND, Tex. — A year ago, the 11-year-old girl who the police say was the victim of repeated gang rapes in this East Texas town was an outgoing honor roll student, brimming with enthusiasm, who went on hikes and planted trees with a youth group here.

“She has always been a really bubbly child,” said Brenda Myers, director of the Community and Children’s Impact Center, who worked with her. “She always had a smile on her face.”

But in October, just after starting sixth grade, the girl became withdrawn, Ms. Myers said, and in November, she stopped attending the center’s meetings.

(...)

The police say the girl was raped on at least six occasions, from Sept. 15 to Dec. 3. Nineteen boys and men, ages 14 to 27, have been charged in connection with the rapes, the most recent arrest last Wednesday.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/us/29texas.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

---

The Times also revealed that the girl's parents are Mexican immigrants and that her 57-year-old father is a carpenter.

[Ed Suspicious]

1. As the father of a soon to be 11 year old girl and a now 12 year old girl..

this shit is absolutely horrifying. These girls are so fragile at this age? Why would anyone do this to them? Why?

[PatentlyDemocratic]

2. I agree, it's absolutely sickening

If history tells us anything, it's that some people are capable of unspeakable horrors. How people can harm others, much less children, is beyond me. Lack of frontal lobe development perhaps.

[defendandprotect]

3. Why do we so little discuss male violence .... ?

and rape --

all of this is also connected to war -- and the lack of resistance of males to having

their lives put on the line for a national security state.

Female inequality also sets up a requirement - ironically enough -- that males become

the protector of females in their lives -- another call to violence.

We need more males rejecting this call to violence -- and to rape!!

[WatsonT]

11. Do we discuss it infrequently?

Because I see all sorts of articles covering these sorts of things.

And this has nothing to do with the war. These are just barbarians behaving as barbarians. No one in the wider culture supports them and with any luck they will get the maximum sentence allowed.

[Tansy_Gold]

13. I would politely disagree

There is a vast, if subtle, culture of violence against women.

I was going to recommend Jean Kilbourne's excellent, if slightly dated, videos "Killing Us Softly," "Still Killing Us Softly," and then discovered she has a new one out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTlmho_RovY

for a 5 minute sample. And catch what Kilbourne says at about the 2:05 mark: ". . . And this is everywhere, in all kinds of advertising: Women's bodies turned into things, into objects. Now of course this affects female self esteem. It also does something even more insidious. It creates a climate in which there is widespread violence against women. . . .But turning a human being into a thing is almost always the first step toward justifying violence against that person."

Kilbourne's focus is on advertising, and I don't think anyone will suggest that advertising doesn't reach out to all segments of society, rich and poor, black and white, male, female, straight, gay. And there are other media and other images -- television, movies, music, video games, etc. -- in which "the other" is dehumanized and then objectified. "The other" can be an 11-year-old girl.


Tansy Gold

[WatsonT]

19. Consider then societies that don't allow

women to be objectified in such a way. Hardcore islamic societies where showing a womans body is forbidden.

Are they better or worse in terms of violence towards women?

Compare that to say the Netherlands where there is legal prostitution, nude images of females everywhere, and a women are abundant in advertisements including very sexual ones.

I know where I'd rather be a woman.

[riderinthestorm]

21. Islamic societies objectify women the worst of all!

They "have" to obscure their bodies as shameful objects that cause men to stray! Their levels of domestic violence, rape and other sexual abuse are theorized to be as high as western cultures but since reporting a rape can sometimes mean a death sentence for women, it kinda discourages data collection.

Any society that shrouds and "disappears" women behind burkas and niqabs doesn't have a healthy relationship with women.

It's interesting that the Scandinavian societies where women are so much "freer" in the society report the highest happiness and satisfaction ratings on the planet.

[Tansy_Gold]

22. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest

that you really don't know what you're talking about, but "nudity" does not equal "objectification."

Please do me a favor and read a little bit of feminist analysis of pornography and rape before engaging me further in this discussion. I believe I offered a bibliography on the subject not too long ago, perhaps in another thread on the subject of the Cleveland, TX gang rape case. If you don't want to take the time to find it, I'll find it for you, and for any other lurkers who might want it.



Tansy Gold


edited to add
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=592707#610315

this was the earlier discussion on DU about the Cleveland TX case. My post #169 contains the bibiliography from the paper I wrote in 1999. As I wrote there, I own copies of most of these books. Present tense, not past.

[WatsonT]

26. Your theory (or hers more accurately) while sounding nice

is not backed by the facts.

As we have access to even greater amounts of pornography the rates of violent/sexual assault against women have decreased.

More porn actually equal less rape, if we follow the numbers rather than someones opinion.

http://reason.com/archives/2007/11/05/is-pornography-a-catalyst-of-s

[Tansy_Gold]

29. I'm sorry, but when I see a website's subtitle is

"free minds and free markets," I know it's a libertarian site and not a liberal/progressive one. It's a site that likes John Stossel and hates ballet. Not the kind of "reason" that appeals to me.

You go your way, WatsonT, and I'll go mine.


Tansy Gold

[WatsonT]

30. That's a cop out: attack the messenger to avoid the message

Check the source.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/display/images/dynamic/events_media/Kendall%20cover%20+%20paper.pdf

The facts are against you.

[Tansy_Gold]

33. Actually, the facts aren't

I began reading Kendall's "paper" and immediately became suspicious. First, he's an economics professor, not a sociologist. I'm a sociologist, not an economist, and I know there's often a different mindset, including a different objective.

So I found a few challenges to Kendall, among which this seemed the most coherent to those not versed in sociological research. And I admit that stats are not my strong point, but even so I think the lay reader will still be able to understand the challenge here.

http://2x3x7.blogspot.com/2006/10/dont-buy-computer-but-if-you-do.html


Of course, the other point to be made is that "rape" is not a discreet act. Stranger rape, which appears to be the focus of Kendall's analysis, is often a crime of power and opportunity and frequently unrelated to lust. Date rape or coercive rape, which sometimes is referred to as "not real rape," may in fact be increased due to increased access to cheap (and concealable) internet pornography. (Before anyone jumps all over me, *I* do not subscribe to the distinction that date rape isn't real rape. But just as there are degrees of "murder" that still leave the victim dead, there are "degrees" of rape that still leave the victim violated.)

The advent of internet pornography is still relatively recent, and its effects will likely not be fully measurable for at least a full generation. (The World Wide Web didn't really come into broad access until the mid-90s.) Even the Cleveland TX case illustrates the impact of technology-based pornography because it was in part the pictures and videos being shared by junior high students that brought the case to light.

I'm sorry, but I'm still not buying your or Kendall's argument that access to pornography decreases the incidence of rape in all its forms or other forms of violence against women. And hard-core pornography is only one aspect of the broader culture of violence against women it persists in advertising, TV and movies, music, etc. As far as I can tell, Kendall hasn't controlled for these or for a host of other variables that he admits exist.

Personally, I consider his analysis seriously flawed, for a variety reasons. While there may be a correlation between SOME of the data, Kendall hasn't provided a causal link other than his own speculation.

And I'm just not sure what Austan Goolsbee knows about rape.



Tansy Gold

[WatsonT]

34. Your source is a blog

why should I accept it?

Besides if you'd read it you'd see it was based on opinion.

The author claims that the internet will change reporting rates for rape, but offers no evidence of it. She also claims that the type of dating more prevalent due to the internet would increase the rate of non-reporting. But offers no evidence for either an increase in that style of dating or that it would lead to lower rates of reporting.


She even admits that all it is is her opinion:

None of this is to say that what Kendall is saying is necessarily wrong, though personally I'm sceptical about the argument that access to porn is a substitute for rape (in Kendall's terms, I'm firmly in the camp of those who believe that rape is about power rather than about lust). It's simply to suggest that Kendall's results and the interpretation he puts on them are extremely questionable, and we should be careful before drawing any real conclusions from them.
------------
"Even the Cleveland TX case illustrates the impact of technology-based pornography because it was in part the pictures and videos being shared by junior high students that brought the case to light. "

So technology helped to arrest people who committed rape, and this discredits the notion that technology is not to blame for rapes? Your logic is convoluted.


When putting hard stats up against someones feelings I'm going to go with the stats every time.

[Tansy_Gold]

35. Kendall's conclusion is also an opinion, just one printed on paper

They're all opinions. And since this isn't LBN and I don't have to cite a "real" source, I'll use whatever evidence I care to.

Kendall's stats aren't "hard" stats. They're cherry-picked and they're not controlled for a number of very important variables. Even he admits that. That's the problem with relying on "natural experiments" vs. "controlled experiments."

My logic is far from convoluted. On the other hand, yours seems to be non-existent.

However, if you want to believe that increased access to internet pornography is good for women and reduces rapes and other forms of violence, go you right ahead. I can tell I'm not going to change your mind. So far you've pulled up one libertarian website and one economist's analysis of internet porn access as a cause of decreased reported rapes. Could be Kendall -- who appears not to have written much more on this subject -- has a vested financial interest in the spread of porn-for-pay, but I don't know that. Regardless, if that makes you happy, well, more power to you.

The preponderance of evidence -- and you should understand the difference between evidence and proof -- is that a culture rife with pornography in all its forms is probably a culture rife with violence against women. Sociology is a subjective science -- economics should be too, but the economists have fought that for years -- and so yes, "feelings" do matter. "Feelings" make for differences of opinion, even in the analysis of "hard" statistics. Generally the objective in sociology is to determine if the "feelings" are justified by the facts, which may or may not include raw statistics, rather than to collect some stats and then make a reality that fits them. Data with no context is meaningless; it's only with a context that data becomes information.

Remember, 372336 is data.
























37-23-36 is information.




Tansy Gold

[WatsonT]

36. You criticized me for using a blog

so in response you posted . . . . a blog.

Either they are acceptable or they aren't. You can't say blogs are ok when they support you but otherwise lack credibility.

Also I referenced a published scientific paper. And yes, before you argue, scientific papers are held to a much higher standard than blogs.


You have claimed these rapes were a result of our increasing objectification of women.

I have shown empirically that this is not true. That by your standard objectification of women is now more common, while rapes are less common, than they were 20+ years ago.

"The preponderance of evidence -- and you should understand the difference between evidence and proof -- is that a culture rife with pornography in all its forms is probably a culture rife with violence against women."




" Sociology is a subjective science -- economics should be too, but the economists have fought that for years -- and so yes, "feelings" do matter."

Feelings do not matter in this regard. You can't just say that you feel rapes are on the increase when the facts say otherwise. Sociology is not a science at all, and to say otherwise is absurd.

This is the danger of our decreasing standards in math and science. People start to believe that what they feel is true is in fact true and that the evidence must be manipulated if it says otherwise.

You have started with a conclusion and will not budge from it. So you are not a scientist. Your opinion is based on merely your feelings, not facts.

[Tansy_Gold]

39. I would never come out and say you're wrong or accuse you of

"not being a scientist."

You've come right out and dismissed sociology as a science, and that's a pretty harsh statement to begin with.

But you've also accused me of something I didn't do, and I have a real problem with people who do that.

I did not criticize you for using a blog. Not at all. I said that when I see a website that lists as its subtitle "Free Mind and Free Market," that disparages government regulation, that hosts John Stossel's commentary, then I can pretty much bet it's a libertarian site and I have a tendency to dismiss that viewpoint. Not that it's a blog, which in fact it didn't appear to be, but that it's libertarian. Kendall's point of view is also very libertarian, and he's going to have to present a whole lot of evidence before he convinces me his conclusion is accurate.

Kendall's paper is academic, but not necessarily scientific. The terms are not interchangeable.

Kendall is an economist, not a sociologist, and if his paper is peer-reviewed by economists, it's not going to have the same weight in the sociological world as it would if it were peer-reviewed by sociologists as well as economists.

Violence against women is far more than merely the incidence of stranger rape, and I don't believe I ever argued solely on the basis of statistics regarding reported rapes. You're the one who has done that, with the help of Todd Kendall's paper.

I have not leveled personal attacks against you. I have not accused you of not being a scientist. I have not said economics was not a science; I merely said it was a "subjective" science, as is sociology.

If you prefer to continue to level personal attacks rather than defend your point of view, feel free. But I have a tendency not only to avoid personal attacks but to report them.


Tansy Gold

[WatsonT]

44. Well look, if you don't like the notion that

there is a negative correlation between porn access and rape then can you at least acknowledge that there is no positive correlation?

It's easy enough to attack someone else's theory as being correlation rather than causation but it is pretty difficult to take a negative correlation and prove a positive correlation.

So if you don't agree with that theory will you admit at least that there is no mathematical evidence linking an increase in porn that objectifies women and violence against women?

/and sociology isn't a science. That isn't an insult any more than saying math isn't an art. It's merely a statement of fact. I'm sorry you chose to take it as one but that was not the intent.

[Tansy_Gold]

46. sociological research follows scientific method

That's sufficient to define it as a science.

And there are those who consider mathematics to be indeed an art. They are expressing their subjective qualitative opinion and it is as valid an opinion as those who say sociology is science.

You can say, "I, WatsonT, do not consider sociology a science, I do not believe it is a science, and I do not think it is a science," at which point that is an opinion. You cannot, however, declaim it as fact, when there are other people -- mostly in the social sciences -- who will dispute it.

If you dismiss the scientific nature of sociology right off the bat, there's really no sense in my even attempting to debate the issue with you. You can accuse me of copping out if you like; I really don't give a rat's ass any more. You can even go to bed tonight in the sure and certain knowledge that you've "won" this little contest, because you've successfully rigged it to where no one else can win because no one else is even allowed to compete.

I'd much rather play games with a six-year-old who makes up the rules as he goes along. At least he's cute.



Tansy Gold

[WatsonT]

47. If the definition of science is

"I feel that this is a science" then it has no meaning.

That's why we have dictionaries. If the definition of words were left up to the individual then communication would become impossible.

And if you believe sociology is a science then there really never was any debate.

[Tansy_Gold]

48. Ah, yes, the dictionaries.

I'm sure you'll find fault with these dictionaries, but I really do feel/sic/ they have some validity. I feel it so strongly that I'm not even going to bother adding emphasis.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sociology

1: the science of society, social institutions and social relationships; specifically: the systematic study of the development, structure, interaction, and collective behavior of organized groups of human beings.

2: the scientific analysis of a social institution as a functioning whole and as it relates to the rest of society.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology

Sociology is the study of society.<1> It is a social science—a term with which it is sometimes synonymous—which uses various methods of empirical investigation<2> and critical analysis<3> to develop and refine a body of knowledge about human social activity, often with the goal of applying such knowledge to the pursuit of social welfare. Subject matter ranges from the micro level of agency and interaction to the macro level of systems and social structures.<4>

Sociology is both topically and methodologically a very broad discipline. Its traditional focuses have included social stratification, social class, social mobility, religion, secularisation, law, and deviance. As all spheres of human activity are sculpted by social structure and individual agency, sociology has gradually expanded its focus to further subjects, such as health, military and penal institutions, the Internet, and even the role of social activity in the development of scientific knowledge.

The range of social scientific methods has also broadly expanded. Social researchers draw upon a variety of qualitative and quantitative techniques. The linguistic and cultural turns of the mid-twentieth century led to increasingly interpretative, hermeneutic, and philosophic approaches to the analysis of society. Conversely, recent decades have seen the rise of new analytically, mathematically and computationally rigorous techniques, such as agent-based modelling and social network analysis.<5><6>


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociology

the science or study of the origin, development, organization, and functioning of human society; the science of the fundamental laws of social relations, institutions, etc.



And now I'm done with you WatsonT. You can go back to whatever it is you do in your real life.



Tansy Gold

[No Elephants]

38. Libertarian. Why am I not surprised?

[LanternWaste]

32. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc

"Hardcore islamic (sic) societies where showing a womans (sic) body is forbidden..."

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc :shrug:

Seems to me the difference can be quite startling between and within "hardcore" Islamic cultures, e.g., North Cyprus vs. UAE, Turkey vs. Sudan, and Albania vs. Bahrain.

[No Elephants]

37. "Hardcore islamic societies" demonize women. Even a glimpse of a lock of

their hair or a flash of skin and no man will be responsible for his actions.

Demonization and objectification are not the only 2 options.

[slackmaster]

40. It's no more about male violence than it is about black violence. Most males are not violent.

Most males never commit rape.

[Tansy_Gold]

41. Most males do not commit forcible rape on strangers

Many males commit other kinds of rape, and many of them don't consider it rape at all.



TG

[slackmaster]

42. Yes, and this thread is about violent, forcible rape

:argh:

[Sonoman]

4. Read the article, folks...

it's life in the Quarters.

Hard business, indeed.

If I wasn't so drunk, I could go on...

Sonoman

[burrfoot]

5. I think it's worth noting that

the parents apparently knew for some time that she was staying out late and sneaking out of the house; and apparently didn't do anything about it.

Let me be clear- this horrible tragedy is clearly the fault of the men and boys who raped the girl. I'm not blaming the girl or her parents in any way, shape or form.

I do, however, have to wonder what the fuck the parents were thinking, not keeping track of their 11 year old daughter.

:shrug:

[Evolve_Already]

8. Don't blame the parents either

for her RAPE. One can chastise and question their parental decisions concerning this young girl, that is all.

Noone to blame here except those young human males.

[burrfoot]

9. I agree-

no one is responsible for the rape of this child except for those who committed the crime. I was wondering about the parenting in terms of furthering the discussion- i.e., what could we maybe do to make this less likely to happen to other children.

[Tansy_Gold]

10. The father is disabled. The mother has "a mass on her brain"

They are desperately poor, often having their water and electricity cut off because they can't pay. The mother, who has been told she requires surgery, continues to work in an underground (illegal?) gambling establishment. I don't imagine she has health insurance.

Please, don't judge these parents by (white) middle class standards. Don't judge the 11-year-old girl by (white) middle class standards. She's apparently a bright child, with the intellectual potential to escape the poverty she's been born into. Do you think she hasn't at some time or other been aware of the limitations placed on her by the circumstances of her birth? Do you think she hasn't had dreams of a different life, and frustrations that those dreams seem so futile?

And yes, I would also say -- much as it pains me -- don't quite judge the rapists until you understand the culture that created them. The poverty, yes, but also the culture of sexual violence that is all around ALL of us and gets concentrated by anger and frustration and fear and poverty and hopelessness.

Am I excusing them? No, not at all. An excuse means it's not their fault, and yes, the rape is still their fault. They have the brains to know right from wrong. But understand that we are ALL of us creatures of our environment, and unless/until that environment is changed -- meaning alleviation of the poverty and racism and hopelessness -- little else will change.



Tansy Gold

[Ferretherder]

14. A very reasoned and thoughtful post.

Thank you for that.

[Evolve_Already]

15. "...don't judge the rapist.."

Excuse me?!

This what-about-the-menz bullshit is straight out of the MRA's mouths to your ears.

Don't fall for it sister.

Porn culture all around, do girls and women rape? ummm statistically miniscule.

[Tansy_Gold]

18. You apparently didn't read all of what I posted

I didn't exonerate them, far from it. But if you'll read my post and my other in this thread, you may find out we're more on the same page than you think.

Watch a little bit of Jean Kilbourne.



TG

[burrfoot]

23. Tansy,

I appreciate that thoughtful post. However, I would ask that you not assume that I'm judging based on "(white) middle class standards," or assume that I have no experience with minority or poverty issues, simply because I posed a question that you disagree with the implications of.

Neither the father's disability nor the mother's "mass"- as unfortunate and potentially tragic as both of those things are- inherently provide any explanation of why they didn't have a better idea or more control over what their daughter was doing.

If it turns out that the father is confined to bed, and the mother works hours at the presumably illegal gambling establishment that keep her away from the home during the times in question; then that's another story. To my knowledge, however, we don't have that information.

I'm not clear on what you were getting at starting with the third sentence of your second paragraph. I'm quite certain that, being a bright girl, she had all kinds of dreams of a different life and frustrations that it didn't seem likely to happen for her. How do you see that relating to the issue?

Again, I don't blame the parents or the girl for the horrible things that happened to her.

However, when I hear about a situation like this one, I'm certainly going to wonder what the story is with the parenting.

And, honestly, I will judge the rapists based on their actions, regardless of their environment.

Your point about the necessity to focus on relieving the poverty and racism and hopelessness, though, is both appreciated and agreed with.

[reggie the dog]

6. horrible

i hope these men go to jail for a long long time

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. they need to sterilize & lock up the whole damn Ellis klan..prevent any further breeding

that whole damn town is the stuff of nightmares.....jesus, some of the rapist were pillars of the sick community

[WatsonT]

12. Not just them it seems

a lot of people were in on this.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. I said that it was the town too

[Redford]

24. I wonder if there are other victims

There could be several girls who have gone thru the same thing.

[WatsonT]

27. Quite possible

If so . . . well I hope they get the worst possible punishment and the rest of the town condemns them and anyone who defends their actions.

[timo]

17. beyond rape

this also goes towards people looking at Mexican immigrants as throw away people, and the racial tensions between African Americans and Mexicans.

[debwal]

20. 3-Month Nightmare Emerges in Rape Inquiry (11-year-old girl from Cleveland, Tex.)

Beyond disgusting.  I hope "Texas justice" doesn't
pull it's usual blame the victim crap.

[lovuian]

25. All of them need to be arrested and jailed

they preyed on this 12 year old and had total disregard for LAW

I'm glad she finally did escape them

[Taverner]

28. There is no punishment that exists to punish stealing that from an 11 year old girl

Sickening...and even the DP wouldn't be justice - in fact (and this is one of the reasons I am against the DP) execution lets the perp off easily

[WatsonT]

31. With any luck the stigma will follow them for the rest of their lives

preventing them from having meaningful careers, or families, or any sort of contentment.

[burrfoot]

43. I hope you're right,

but I'm afraid that they're the kind of people who are going to stay where they live; and that where they live, what they did doesn't carry a stigma. :(

[WatsonT]

45. Possibly so

And fairly depressing. I try to hope for the best in human nature but expect the worst.