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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:02 AM
Original message
Defiant Wisconsin Democrats Say Running Away Is Democracy, Too
Source: ABC News

The Democratic Wisconsin state senators camped out across the border in Illinois fired back at Gov. Scott Walker today, saying their action to block a vote on his budget proposal is an effort to protect democracy.

(snip)
State Sen. Julie Lassa, who is six months pregnant, said the governor is wrong about her and the others holed up in an Illinois hotel.

"For all of us who left the state, we believe we're standing up for democracy," Nissa told ABC News' Barbara Pinto.


Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/defiant-wisconsin-democrats-ru...
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. they are correct
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Just another one of those checks and balances
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. They are absolutely correct.
Not giving in to the rethuglican tactics is giving the state breathing room.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. You are standing up for Democracy
and we salute you!!
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. FLASHBACK: Abraham Lincoln wrote playbook for Wisconsin Dems who fled state
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. "we're standing up for democracy"
Absolutely! Let Scott Walker stew in his own juices.
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. Abraham Lincoln jumped out of the building in a bid to prevent foes from getting a quorum
Edited on Mon Feb-21-11 06:34 AM by Omaha Steve

K&R!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/18/awol.legislators ...

By Phil Gast, CNN
February 18, 2011 11:12 p.m. EST


While in the Illinois House, Abraham Lincoln jumped out of the building in a futile bid to prevent foes from getting a quorum.


(CNN) -- This week's bitter budget showdown in Wisconsin isn't the first time state legislators have fled a state, left a building or refused to show when votes were called.

The "Killer Ds" and the "Texas 11," for example, skedaddled from Texas in 2003 to prevent consideration of a redistricting bill.

In 1839, a young Abraham Lincoln, serving as a Whig in the Illinois House, jumped out of the building in a futile bid to prevent Democrats from getting a quorum to vote on a banks bill.

Members of the 1891 Florida Senate went to Georgia in a bid to prevent a quorum for the election of a U.S. senator.

And in 1994, Republican members of the California Assembly refused to show up for floor sessions in an effort to prevent Democrats from electing Willie Brown as speaker with less than a majority vote.

FULL story at link.

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Shadowflash Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
8. If it works, that's what counts!
Edited on Mon Feb-21-11 06:43 AM by Shadowflash
I look at it as something akin to a filibuster. Same thing.

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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. The corporate media/propaganda
is reporting that labor is on the wrong side of public opinion. The corporate media is withering on the vine. It's a dinosaur in the Internet age.
Walker should be recalled or horse whipped.
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TaylorWatts Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I hope Ed/Rachel/Lawrence/Chris will keep this in the news
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. "running away" in the headline. Every other story I have read includes "hiding"
in the text.

Not making a quorum available is a tool for minority parties to use. Of course in the US Senate the Republicans stay there (where would they go?) but then act like sociopaths to block everything and the Dems allow it.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I noted that, too. Dog, I hate the Republicon media!
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MJJP21 Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. Finally
Someone is standing up to the Right WINGNUTS and throwing it back at them. Ed SHULTZ from the ED SHOW gave Rush a one two punch on TV the other night.
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. Stupid teabaggers speak out of both sides of their mouths...
They scream that Obama is a dictator, a Hitler,
but all nod in agreement when Rick Scott (and other tea governors)
stamp their feet, demand perfect obedience, and the senators
are supposed to obediently return to the state house quaking,
and voting in obeisance. No irony here?

The teabaggers scream about laws making the country a "Nanny-state"
but they really want a "Big Daddy" state where the governor is
the ultimate authority, slashing long served traditions
because he thinks its the right thing to do.

True democracy is hearing the voice of the people,
and serving the people, even if its isn't the most popular thing
to do (I hear the voices in the media say: look at the polls! )-
democracy doesn't happen in the statehouse that ignores a states
rich tradition of respecting the rights of the people.

Three enemies of democracy:
1. propaganda
2. forgetting history
3. pornography in many forms (Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are all 3).

So Rick Scott, why don't you go back to Colorado where you came from?
I'm sure the fundies out there will love your firm ways of dealing
with people.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. RWers deal in Party and personalities, not in principles, consistently applied.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
13. Damn, why can't we have these Democrats in Congress rather than the bunch of cowards
now there and in the White House??!?!?! :(
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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Amen.
I don't know why.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. The standard in WI is a 3/5ths majority
must be present to hold a vote. If Congress were to follow the same rules that means than any collection of 41 Senators or 175 Representatives could shut down the entire legislative branch until the next election at least. It's not hard for any one party to control 40%+1 in any given house.

Which means once the precedent has been set nothing would ever happen in government, we'd be in a perpetual state of gridlock.

This isn't the way to go. It's not how a representative democracy is supposed to work and it won't make matters better in the longrun.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. 175 Reps and 41 Senators is a LOT. Besides, the minority in Congress can block ANYTHING
with 40 Senators. And they don't even have to leave their seats (although they are rarely in their seats).
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Or
Not and. Shut down either and you've effectively shut down the government.

And it would have meant the Democrats could have accomplished precisely nothing since 2008: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congre...

But of course that would have been holding the country hostage to their fascist demands, rather than standing up for their constituents.

I am really coming to detest the hypocrisy and short-sightedness that 90% of the population seems to be so proud of.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. No. And. Not or. 40 Senators can block anything and they don't even have to leave
their seats is right.

"And it would have meant the Democrats could have accomplished precisely nothing since 2008:"

Um, no. "Can" is very different from "always do."

"But of course that would have been holding the country hostage to their fascist demands, rather than standing up for their constituents."

I've never said anything remotely similar to that. You seem to be fond of straw persons.

"I am really coming to detest the hypocrisy and short-sightedness that 90% of the population seems to be so proud of"

Ugh.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. You seem to misunderstand
if 40 senators OR 40% of representatives were to flee it would shut down the government. It wouldn't take both 40 senators and 40% of representatives.

And a filibuster is substantially different than fleeing the state/country.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. No, it isn't
I know how everyone is rah rah rah for this. But consider what would be said if the situation were reversed: republicans fled in order to prevent a vote on something they were afraid they'd lose on but democrats really want.


Then it would be 'fascism'. People really need to take a longer view of things.
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TaylorWatts Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hypocrisy is common on both sides. I guess almost everyone
with an interest in politics believes in "the ends justify the means"
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. My allegience is to political power, not process.
The important thing is to smash one's enemy and to effectively wield political power, not uphold some ludicrous notion of "fairness."
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Agreed. However, both points are accurate
Edited on Mon Feb-21-11 12:51 PM by joeglow3
Now that a precedent has been set, it will all to easy for the other side to do the same.

Politics, I guess. :shrug:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. This did not set any precedent. Please see Reply #7, which is probably not
inclusive of every time this has happened in the past).
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Sarcasm
I assume?

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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You assume wrong.
I mean it. We cannot give anything. "Fairness" is properly viewed as a tactic, not a principle.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Ah
well that whatever it takes, damn fairness and democratic principles schtick is certainly a common one throughout history. Just rarely among people who are remembered fondly.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Lincoln is remembered fondly by many.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. He was responding to a civil war
the largest war in our history and he was widely condemned at the time and even today by modern historians for ignoring the constitution.

It's amazing that I have to be the sole person pointing out the faults with the logic of "damn the laws, do whatever you want" mantra.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Huh? When he jumped out of the window to prevent a quorum, he wasn't dealing w .Civil War.
Edited on Mon Feb-21-11 04:44 PM by No Elephants
And he did not ignore the Cons., but that is a different issue entirely and not for this thread.

Please cite a Wis. law saying staying away to prevent a quorum is illegal.

ETA: (See also, civil disobedience.)
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Ah
I thought you were talking about the various things he did during the civil war such as suspending habeas corpus etc.

Was he remembered fondly for breaking up a quorum back before he became president? Seems he was remembered for other things.

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/116390569.html
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
44.  Again, please see Reply 7.
Edited on Mon Feb-21-11 05:57 PM by No Elephants
"I thought you were talking about the various things he did during the civil war such as suspending habeas corpus etc."

I knew what you assumed, but, as I said, habeas corpus is off topic. I assumed you might have read this thread, inasmuh as you've been posting on it. We both assumed wrong.


"Was he remembered fondly for breaking up a quorum back before he became president?"

Well, now you moved the goalpost. The post of yours to which I responded had said only that folks who did things like that were not remembered fondly. However, Linoln indeed is remembered very fondly for the various clever ways in which he outwitted his opposition.

You can tell that from Sandburg's 2 volume bio, a much small work entitled "The Wit and Wisdo of Abraham Lincoln, edited by Anthony Gross, and Hollywood movies about Lincoln. And, at least two posters on this thread (Omaha Steve and TX4Obama) seem to be remembering him quite fondly on the specific quorum issue.

Edit for 3 typos and to add: I bet many workers all over the nation will remember Wisconsin Dems fondly for preventing a quorum on this issue. (It's not as though doing away with the right to bargain is a small or routine issue.)
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Process is important
It falls under that whole "rule of law" theory of governance. Without it, the loudest voice and the biggest gun wins.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. In doing this the representatives are in fact...
In doing this the representatives are in fact, representing the will of the people.

"But consider what would be said if the situation were reversed..." Subjective prognostication on your part; point us to where and when this indeed happened with the aforementioned results, and then you have an argument predicated on precedent, rather than merely on "what ifs"
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Remember this when the situation is reversed
same as the people who supported the patriot act who then freaked out when it was handed over to Obama.

Politics is fluid, don't support extra-legal tactics for your guy if you don't want your most despised politician to also be free to use them.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. These are not extra-legal tactics.
These are not extra-legal tactics. These are political tactics.

Regardless, your position is post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

(Stating that politics is fluid often seems merely an excuse to broaden the meaning of each word in order to better validate a position.)
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Sigh
you don't get it.

That's ok, you seem to have many friends.

When the GOP does this exact same thing in 10 years don't forget to be outraged by their fascist tactics.

And don't forget to come up with an excuse for how that is completely different than this instance.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Republicans have done it. Please see Reply 7. (And that's probably not an all inclusive list.)
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Children often think
that "but but but Johnny did it too!" negates any wrongdoing on their part and puts all accusations to rest.

But we aren't children here. We're adults. So let us reason as adults.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Straw man. Damned condescending as well. Got that statutory cite?
Edited on Mon Feb-21-11 05:11 PM by No Elephants
Hint: Repeating over and over that something is illegal without proving it indeed violates some relevant law after you have been challenged on that point by more than one poster is not a dazzling display of your adult arguing skills.

I never said anything was okay bc Johnny did it too. You said people who had done this were not remembered fondly (which is the mirror image of the allegedly childish argument you falsely accused me of making). I simply said Linoln was remembered fondly.

ETA: You also posted "What if Republicans did this?" (or similar words). I simply pointed out they had done it.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
22. I figure the pukes will try to make this an issue of fairness
talk about hypocrisy
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. K and R for Democrats
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
45. They ARE doing their jobs and they ARE representing the voters.
In particular, the voters who are being ignored and preyed upon by the current power structure, from the governor on down. The Defiant Dems ARE INDEED doing their jobs and serving the interests of Wisconsin voters. Absolutely, without a doubt.
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fittosurvive Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
46. Not really, if the people of Wisconsin do not like what the Republicans do,
they can vote them out the next time around and change it back.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-11 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
48. bob marley....
he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day...
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