Multiculturalism has failed, says French president

[onehandle]

Source: AFP

PARIS (AFP) – French President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Thursday that multiculturalism had failed, joining a growing number of world leaders or ex-leaders who have condemned it. "My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure," he said in a television interview when asked about the policy which advocates that host societies welcome and foster distinct cultural and religious immigrant groups.

"Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want... a society where communities coexist side by side. "If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France," the right-wing president said.

"The French national community cannot accept a change in its lifestyle, equality between men and women... freedom for little girls to go to school," he said. "We have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him," Sarkozy said in the TFI channel show.

British Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Australia's ex-prime minister John Howard and Spanish ex-premier Jose Maria Aznar have also recently said multicultural policies have not successfully integrated immigrants. Merkel in October said efforts towards multiculturalism in Germany had "failed, totally."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110210/wl_afp/francepolit...

---

If teabaggers knew what 'Multiculturalism' meant, they would be quite pleased.

[ZombieHorde]

1. Multiculturalism in the US has mostly been successful. nt

[architect359]

4. "mostly" is the key phrase

Personally, from my own life experience, I would even question that. Disdain / distrust of different cultural lifestyles and point of views are still here. Sometimes its more overt, mostly (that word again), just beneath a glossy sheen of denial.

It is what it is.

[greiner3]

13. So which Native American tribe do you belong to?

[Moral_Imagination]

39. Unlike the European countries,

We have birthright citizenship. So 2nd generation immigrants are absorbed easily. Not only has Multiculturalism succeeded here, but it enriches us.

[JDPriestly]

15. Our Constitution guarantees certain basic rights.

But laws like the Patriot Act endanger multiculturalism in the US. That is because the Patriot Act, for example, makes it easy for the government to target certain groups that are perceived as "different" just because they are "different."

Remember, Scalia recently expressed the opinion that the 14th Amendment was not intended to protect the rights of women. That may be true in a literal sense, but in terms of today's society, it is not true.

(Off topic: The meanings of words, of language, change over time. We understand that the word "men" as in policemen or firemen encompasses women today because it is awkward to always have to say policemen and policewomen. Scalia may be a constitutional scholar, but he is clearly no linguist, yet he insists on interpreting the individual words in the Constitution as if he were an expert on linguistics. He should talk to Noam Chomsky if he wants the input of a true linguist. Many of the words used in Shakespeare's plays no longer have the meaning or significance they had when Shakespeare wrote them.)

We accept multiculturalism, but it only works so long as each culture respects the rights of other cultures, and there is a consensus that everyone follows certain basic rules. Europeans are having problems with immigrants who do not want to respect the rights of others, namely traditional Europeans, to cherish their own values. I understand very well what is troubling Europeans in this respect. The problem is not really multiculturalism, but the lack of respect on the part of certain small portions of the immigrants, for the rights of others in the country.

Also, I believe that, in france, the wearing of religious garb has long been a subject of dispute. The nuns' veils were the topic of controversy in the past in France.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2010/07/why-france-is... /

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Not really.

It's very regional. You to a right-wing community and you'll find a tremendous resistance. In this last election there was a local politician who was decrying diversity. They said it openly.

[NeoConsSuck]

65. As long as you exclude upstate NY

Peace group's status unclear

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Peace-group-s-s...

[Paranoid Pessimist]

79. The French President has failed multiculturalism! n / t

[VWolf]

2. French president has failed, say people of many cultures n/t

[krabigirl]

25. agreed.

[bajamary]

28. oui, c'est vire

Sarko is a RW member of the French elite, who is not capable of understanding any culture other than the French elites.

How ironic, when you consider that Sarko is the son of an Jewish Hungarian immigrant who has spent his energies to become more French than the French.

Doth he protest too much?

[gtar100]

80. Sarkozy: "Oh, It's just too hard!!!"

[AnOhioan]

3. Says a right wing blowhole

[KamaAina]

77. Says yet ANOTHER right-wing blowhole

This is beginning to look like a rogues' gallery of the right. Cameron, Howard, Merkel, now Sarkozy... I imagine Bush* will chime in as soon as he finishes clearing the brush.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

5. delete... dupe

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

6. To a certain extent, I agree with Sarkozy

if an immigrant (and I am one myself) is willingly (emphasis on 'willingly') going to a country which has different norms/rules with regards to equality between the sexes, social mores, separation of church and state, an official language, etc., and then said immigrant does not want to accept or adhere and/or seeks to establish separate niches in which these values do not apply, then in that sense I agree with Sarkozy.

[greiner3]

14. And the 'Land of the Free;'

Is dead in your eyes?

You must be a paralegal to Anton Scalia.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. I'll give an example of where the USA did not go for multiculturalism: polygamy

"The Land of the Free" told the Mormons that if Utah was to get statehood, they'd have to give up polygamy. That is very much like the examples WilmywoodNCparalegal brought up (and which are fairly typical of the issues with European multiculturalism), and the USA was definite - they could not have a separate culture where that meant a different moral attitude to a basic law.

So, do you think this decision by the 'Land of the Free' was a bad decision that Scalia would have supported, but you don't? Should polygamy have been allowed?

[WatsonT]

16. +1

Multiculturalism with a good grounding in civil liberties is great.

Multiculturalism without that isn't necessarily.

[sudopod]

58. But that's obviously not the sense in which he meant it.

"Multicultralism" is a dog whistle. Leftish Brit put it much better than I did:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[marmar]

7. 'joining a growing number of world leaders or ex-leaders who have condemned it'

Of CONSERVATIVE world leaders who have condemned it. All of the "leaders" cited in this piece are Cons.

[MisterP]

31. ususally when numerous world leaders condemn something, it's pretty beneficial

just ask Trotsky, Ho, Sukarno, Neto, Lenin, Ben Bella, Tito, Castro, Ortega, ELAS, Arbenz, and thousands of Salvadorans and Guatemalans

[Turborama]

33. Yep, see post below for exact same headline with different conservative names attached...

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[BenzoDia]

8. Wonder if he's still kicking Roma Gypsies out of France?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020429

[krabigirl]

26. yep.

[DirkGently]

9. How would he know? France is notoriously defensive of its native culture.

[pampango]

10. rench far right praises British PM for attacking multiculturalism and immigration

http://www.americablog.com/2011/02/french-far-right-pra...

If you put aside the posh accent and better manners, the differences are not that great. The UK has a much greater problem with xenophobia than France yet somehow they think that more criticism of immigrants is the answer. The Guardian:

Marine Le Pen was elected to lead the National Front last month. She claimed the prime minister's speech on the failures of multiculturalism showed he was taking Britain's Conservatives towards her stance on the issue. "It is exactly this type of statement that has barred us from public life for 30 years," she told the Financial Times. "I sense an evolution at European level, even in classic governments. I can only congratulate him."

Germany's chancellor, Angela Merkel, was among European leaders listening to Cameron's speech in Munich at the weekend. He is accused of having played into the hands of rightwing extremists by talking of the failings of multiculturalism within hours of one of the biggest anti-Islam rallies ever staged in Britain.

Cameron called for a new "muscular liberalism", promoting British values and national identity. A policy of "passive tolerance" had only served to encourage Islamist extremism, he argued.

Canada has us all beat, though

UK denounces multiculturalism while Canada celebrates it (Multiculturalism is enshrined in their constitution)

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2011/02/08/171963...

Britain’s prime minister and Germany’s chancellor have recently declared multiculturalism a failure in their countries, but a new report from Immigration Minister Jason Kenney "Reaffirms multiculturalism as a fundamental characteristic of Canadian society.”

Canada officially adopted a policy of multiculturalism in 1971 and enshrined it in the Constitution in Section 27 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982.

Much of the report highlights steps the federal government has taken to reach out to different ethnic groups, including helping Elections Canada publish a voters guide in "27 heritage languages, and in 11 Aboriginal languages.” Those languages include Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Croatian, Greek, and Somali.

Oddly, the report also cites research that questions why the voters guide would even need to be produced. According to data from the federal government, foreign-born Canadian citizens are more likely to vote than those of the same ethnic background who were born in Canada.

[regnaD kciN]

11. Gee. Are Sarkozy's poll ratings still in the "Cheney zone"...?

British Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Australia's ex-prime minister John Howard and Spanish ex-premier Jose Maria Aznar have also recently said multicultural policies have not successfully integrated immigrants.

Let's see...conservative, conservative, failed friend of Dubya, failed friend of Dubya. Such a broad sweep of public opinion! Next thing you'll know, some proposal will have "wide-ranging appeal" because Beck, Rush, and O'Reilly all agree on it.

[nyy1998]

12. It's easy to say that when you never even tried.

Race relations here in the US do have plenty fo room for improvement, but it's a HELL of a lot better then France.

[muntrv]

18. Like colonialism failed?

[Ash_F]

62. Bingo. France would not have so many Muslim immigrants if they had not spent hundreds of years...

invading and taking over other cultures such as Algeria. When an empire takes over a country, it is not usually realistic to wipe out the entire population to get to the resources. The native population is usually needed to acquire them. Sometimes the population itself is the prize as a body of production, slaves or simply consumers.

This trade results in people moving back and forth between each country. To conduct business and receive eduction. And some decide to make a permanent home. Now that France has waned as a superpower, with less to gain from the former Muslim territories, they feel they should not be hosting immigrants? They broke it because of their greed, they should buy it now.

And they do not need to sacrifice anyone's rights to do so. Sarkozy is scapegoating Muslims. This is similar to what happened with Blacks in America. The community that was previously subjugated was later blamed for societies ills, not long after they received some small measure of freedom and opportunity.

[provis99]

19. Multiculturalism in Canada seems successful.

The French have their own identity and language, yet still participate in the national debate.

[panzerfaust]

44. Not to the Québécois it does not

My prediction is that the next time a sovereignist referendum is on the ballot, that it will pass (as it nearly did the last time)

[amandabeech]

63. It would not surprise me one bit.

The question is, what would the rest of Canada do?

I understand that in many parts of Canada, Quebecois and bilinqualism are not well regarded.

[pampango]

46. Indeed, multiculturalism is enshrined in their constitution.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2011/02/08/171963...

Britain’s prime minister and Germany’s chancellor have recently declared multiculturalism a failure in their countries, but a new report from Immigration Minister Jason Kenney "Reaffirms multiculturalism as a fundamental characteristic of Canadian society.”

Canada officially adopted a policy of multiculturalism in 1971 and enshrined it in the Constitution in Section 27 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982.

Much of the report highlights steps the federal government has taken to reach out to different ethnic groups, including helping Elections Canada publish a voters guide in "27 heritage languages, and in 11 Aboriginal languages.” Those languages include Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Croatian, Greek, and Somali.

Oddly, the report also cites research that questions why the voters guide would even need to be produced. According to data from the federal government, foreign-born Canadian citizens are more likely to vote than those of the same ethnic background who were born in Canada.

[closeupready]

20. No, that's not it - France has failed its own ideals of 'Liberty, Equality, Fraternity'.

But, not really. Sarkozy is just full of crap, spouting nonsense again.

[LeftishBrit]

21. Well, Sarkozy has most definitely failed!

[conspirator]

22. Fuck you Sarko. Your rich friends brought muslims to europe to exploit the cheap labor

in the first place. Stop pretending you give a shit about multiculturalism. All you want is low salaries.

[stockholmer]

23. ironic coming from a Hungarian-Greek Jew who rose to become president of France

[panzerfaust]

43. by accepting the culture and values of France

If his mother (apparently his father abandoned them) had chosen to live in a closed little Greek or Orthodox community then it is beyond possibility that he would have become president.



Yes, he is a rightwing slimeball of the first rank: but he is a French slimeball.

[LanternWaste]

91. Americans used to say the same thing about Catholics...

"had chosen to live in a closed little Greek or Orthodox community then it is beyond possibility that he would have become president..."

Americans used to say the same thing about Catholics... luckily, we made a few advances in that direction.

[krabigirl]

24. no, Sarkozy has failed. Hoping a socialist will best him in 2012. fascist scum.

[marasinghe]

27. as always with the closet fascists - the age-old false-equivalence stunt.

trying to whip up mob antipathy, by equating unrelated categories. like the American fascists successful conflation of socialism with authoritarian communism; or, Iraq with 9-11 & weapons of mass-destruction.

human & civil rights have nothing to do with multiculturalism. as long as the rights - of anyone - are not infringed upon & are actively protected by the government, people should have the freedom to practice whatever the hell they feel comfortable with.

this is just, the rulers seeing the writing on the wall - from the current wave of protest sweeping the World - & instinctively closing ranks amongst themselves, in preparation for a counter-wave of suppression; hyenas gearing up for the kill.

[DeadEyeDyck]

29. Does that mean they have tired

of Jerry Lewis movies?

[StarsInHerHair]

30. yet the Code of Hammurabi was written in 3 languages & pre-dates the 10

Commandments, they had many different races in their territory, the Rosetta Stone was written in 2 or 3 languages as well. Almost all thriving nations get this weird effect: people from all over the world come and settle down in them.

[Turborama]

32. Unrec: Seems like a European Conservative memo going around. 1st Merkel, 2nd Cameron & now Sarkozy

Angela Merkel: German multiculturalism has 'utterly failed'

Chancellor's assertion that onus is on new arrivals to do more to integrate into German society stirs anti-immigration debate

Matthew Weaver and agencies | guardian.co.uk, Sunday 17 October 2010 11.58 BST

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has courted growing anti-immigrant opinion in Germany by claiming the country's attempts to create a multicultural society have "utterly failed".

Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democratic Union party, Merkel said the idea of people from different cultural backgrounds living happily "side by side" did not work.

She said the onus was on immigrants to do more to integrate into German society.

"This (multicultural) approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, west of Berlin, yesterday.

More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merk...

-----x----

Multiculturalism has failed in Britain - Cameron
By Matt Falloon
LONDON | Sat Feb 5, 2011 11:35am GMT

Cameron, in a speech to a security conference in Munich, will argue that Britain and other European nations need to "wake up to what is happening in our countries" as well as tackling terrorism through military operations overseas.

"It is time to turn the page on the failed policies of the past," he will say, according to extracts from his speech released by his office.

"So first, instead of ignoring this extremist ideology, we -- as governments and societies -- have got to confront it, in all its forms."

His comments echo those made by German leader Angela Merkel last year and reflect a push by European governments to better integrate immigrants, given persistent domestic tensions between different cultures.

More: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/02/05/uk-britain-rad...

[JVS]

78. The fact that these three are coming out on the issue makes me suspect some kind of EU...

action is coming.

[SquireJons]

34. He's Correct

As much as I dislike Sarkozy, I think his analysis, and those of other European leaders is correct. Multiculturalism doesn't work. I can't think of any place in history where it has. I guess you could make the case that the Roman Empire was multicultural, but it was one which required regular military operations to suppress the uprisings. Also, it was multicultural mainly because it kept conquering other peoples. In Italy itself, not so much. A better example might be the Austro-Hungarian Empire which was indeed multicultural. But it failed completely. How about Canada? Never mind...

One of the main strengths that America has enjoyed is the concept of the US being a 'melting pot.' With that approach, a country can absorb immigrants, integrate parts of other cultures and benefit from their industry without being pulled in many different directions at once. From what I've read over the last 20 years or so, many immigrant populations in Europe and other western countries remain stubbornly opposed to assimilation and opposed to the culture that they have immigrated to. I also have not seen any counter movement within immigrant communities to assimilate within the cultures they have moved to, as is widespread in America. Why would any society welcome into it's folds those who object to their very existence?

Being anti-multiculturalism isn't the same thing as being anti-immigrant, any more than being anti-botulism would be the same as being anti-food. If something kills the host, it's not a good thing for that host. Perhaps those that long for multiculturalism in Europe actually pine for the day that European culture is no more?

[Turborama]

35. There are countries all over South America, Asia and Africa that are full of different cultures

That have lived together for millennia.

This modern anglo/euro-centric idea of assimilation is too Borg like for me.

[saras]

36. South America???

Yep.

Whites on top.

Imported blacks in the middle.

And natives on the bottom.

Works great. Almost as good as in the USA. Ask any American native.

[Turborama]

49. You're conflating ^race^ with *culture*. As is everyone else replying to me, it seems.

[SquireJons]

66. Semantics?

Rather than debate the meaning of words, I'd rather discuss ideas. The basic idea of a multicultural society, to me, implies that there are multiple, divergent and competing cultures within a society. I just don't see that working anywhere. There may be ethnic pride, for instance being proud of ones heritage, but at least in this country, we are all Americans, and all enjoy the same culture.

You made a blanket statement that multicultural societies exist in countries in South America, Asia and Africa. I would like to see some examples and then we can discuss the merits of your contention. Personally, I just don't see it.

I didn't address Africa, because I don't really know much about African cultures. But the fusion of western culture and African culture hasn't gone very well, and the Hutu and Tutsi seem to have some issues, as well as the Arabs and the Berbers. So the areas of Africa that I am familiar with don't seem to back up your argument.

The balls in your court.

[Turborama]

85. Whoever replied to this is Ignored so I can't read what you wrote and quite frankly don't care

I only ignore people who have expressed bigotry/xenophobia/racism (which I find intolerable), so I honestly don't care what you have to say to me and am glad to shun you forever.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. To be honest, you appear to have just lost this argument

You replied to them at first, and then put them on ignore and proclaimed you don't care. If you won't address people's posts, it seems you have no replies. They ask questions that you need to answer to back up your earlier assertions. You may well have answers, but you need to tell us what they are.

On edit: perhaps something happened between you and SquireJons in the deleted sub-thread that made you put him on ignore. Nevertheless, a reply from you on these questions (what countries in South America, Asia and Africa are you putting forward as good examples of successful multiculturalism) would help a lot.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pampango]

41. Tom Tancredo (speaking at CPAC) would agree.

"If there is one message to take away from CPAC’s panel on immigration, it’s that White America is in serious jeopardy and may soon succumb to immigration, multiculturalism, and socialism. The panel “Will Immigration Kill the GOP?” featured former congressmen Tom Tancredo (R-CO) and Virgil Goode (R-VA), Bay Buchanan of Team America PAC, and special guest Rep. Lou Barletta (R-PA). The group Youth for Western Civilization sponsored the panel, and its head Kevin DeAnna was also a panelist. Youth for Western Civilization is a far-right group that regularly criticizes affinity groups on college campuses, especially those that represent black, Hispanic, LGBT, Native American, and Muslim students."

"Responding to a questioner who believed that Democrats would drop their support of immigration reform if immigrants were stripped of their right to vote, Tancredo said that even immigrants without voting rights still pose a grave danger to the country."

"Evidently, while the panel’s speakers see unrepentant Nativism and immigrant-bashing as the way for the GOP’s electoral success, it mainly appealed to the CPAC attendees who feared the demise of White America and the emergence of a more diverse population. All four panelists agreed that unless the Republican Party embraces their hard line anti-immigrant stance, the GOP will become inextricably weakened and the country will dissolve into multicultural dystopia."

“No more of this multiculturalism garbage,” Tancredo said, adding that “the cult of multiculturalism has captured the world” and is “the dagger in the heart” of civilization.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/cpac-immigration-...

Tancredo is wrong. The left supports multiculturalism in Europe (and elsewhere) for good reasons while the right opposes it and stirs up fears of "them" (as our teabaggers do - "We want our country back") for partisan advantage.

What if in France less than .1% of Muslim women wear the burka but the National Front and Sarkozy use pictures of them as proof that Muslims in France don't want to assimilate? Does that seem about right? Or is it possible that the right doesn't want Muslims in France at all and uses a caricature of Muslim immigrants to create fear of "them"? They are tapping into "teabagger" fears in France to divide society and win votes.

What if Germany (and the rest of Europe) invited Muslim workers in after WWII to help them rebuild from war devastation, thinking they would stay a few years then go home? The countries had no plan for these "immigrants" to assimilate nor any desire for them to do so. It was difficult for these foreign workers (or even their German-born children) to become citizens of their "new country". Now decades later the German right wing (and the right wing only) use the "refusal" of these immigrants to assimilate as proof that multiculturalism has failed. (Yeah, and the fact that African Americans still earn less than whites (or that a small percentage of them wear dashikis or have converted to Islam and dress accordingly) is proof that they have no desire to assimilate. )

"Perhaps those that long for multiculturalism in Europe actually pine for the day that European culture is no more?"

The culture of a society isn't frozen in place. It constantly evolves. The culture of France in 1940 was not the same as the culture in 1789. Its culture has probably changed more from the opening of its borders to the rest of Europe as a member of the European Union than it has from the small percentage of immigrants from outside of Europe. Multiculturalism isn't going to kill European culture any more than it will kill American culture (the protestations of teabaggers and Tancredo notwithstanding). If you believe in multiculturalism (and perhaps you don't, which is your choice) you believe that diversity enriches culture rather than destroys it.

[xxqqqzme]

64. "...Democrats would drop their support of immigration

reform if immigrants were stripped of their right to vote, Tancredo said that even immigrants without voting rights still pose a grave danger to the country."

When were immigrants given voting privileges? I thought you had to be a US citizen to vote. If that immigrant has been naturalized, then he is no longer an immigrant but a voting US citizen.

[Moral_Imagination]

38. This is because they treat their migrant workers

as second class citizens, and also there is no birthright citizenship.

[CJvR]

40. Hardly surprising.

Multi-culturalism was never more than a convenient political excuse for the failure of integration.
"No integration didn't fail! We aimed for multi-culturalism all along!"

[sudopod]

52. Horseshit.

People always carry on "I want to live my life the way I want to" and demand it as a fundamental right while gluing teabags to their trucker hat, but god forbid someone else wants to, whether they're a hippie, gay, or Muslim. Behaving like that just ain't right in America.

How the pressure from that sort of hypocrisy doesn't make people's heads explode is utterly beyond me.

[panzerfaust]

42. Melting Pot: About the only thing I agree with Sarkozy about

If one's "native country" is so precious, one's culture so unparalleled, one's language so close to that of heaven then why move to another country with a different culture, different values, and a different language?

America, during the time of her greatness, made no bones about it: She was the great "melting pot" of the world. We might arrive as Armenians, Germans, Chinese ... but we all wanted to become Americans.

Now the drive is to the Balkanization of the world.

I have little doubt that by the end of this century the United Kingdom will no longer be united, Quebec will have split from Canada, the US will have fragmented into at least three nations, and even tiny Belgium will have finally split between the whatevers and the whichevers.

If one wants to experience the full richness of one's ancestral culture, then one should stay in one's ancestral country. Truly, if it is so wonderful - how could it make any sense to leave?

If I moved to France, I would expect to learn to speak French, and I would expect to adopt the values of a democratic secular society - since those are the values of France. If I moved to Iran, I would expect to learn Persian, make the surrender to Allah that is Islam, and live in a totalitarian state which has a very different set of values than does America.

[pampango]

45. "why move to another country with a different culture, different values, and a different language?"

If you ask most immigrants the answer would probably be "poverty, repression and wanting a better life" or a combination of all three. (The same reasons that immigrants come to the US.) What if the vast majority of immigrants to France did learn (or already spoke French)? What if only a tiny percentage (less than 1%) of immigrant women wore a burka but the right wing used them as a caricature of all Muslim immigrants in order to stoke fear of "others" to win votes? (That's sounds like a teabagger tactic, doesn't it?)

What if in the UK Muslim immigrants were actually very well assimilated, but the right wing conservatives want to stigmatise them using examples of a very small proportion of them to create fear and resentment.

"Britain’s black Caribbean community received no mention at all (in Cameron's multiculturalism has failed" speech) – there was no need. The government’s 2009-10 citizenship survey found 85 per cent of people with a black Caribbean background felt they belonged strongly to Britain. Yet here are two remarkable statistics from that survey. Among those with a strong sense of belonging to Britain were 91 per cent of people with a Bangladeshi background and 90 per cent of people with a Pakistani background. So how widespread are the rootlessness and alienation among British Muslims of which the prime minister spoke?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a51bd6ba-361d-11e0-9b3b-00144...

[LeftishBrit]

56. Excellent points

Also 'multiculturalism' tends to be a term restricted to immigrants, whereas perhaps the most extreme form of 'multiculturalism' in the UK has been the sharp separation of Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland.

[SquireJons]

67. Vive la France!

"If one's "native country" is so precious, one's culture so unparalleled, one's language so close to that of heaven..."

(lol)At first I thought you were talking about how the French see their society. Did you know that the French have a government ministry that comes up with French words to replace foreign words like Xerox? It makes for really comical and awkward verbiage.

[Dash87]

47. It's a bunch of garbage. Multiculturalism has always worked in the US.

Despite the constant hate for immigration here. It seems like these guys are culture snobs. In reality, different cultures make a country interesting because they bring different foods and ideas to the table.

American culture is always changing because of immigration, and it's awesome.

[CJvR]

48. I have to...

...disagree.

The US is essentially a mono culture. It has been very successful at integrating immigrants, although most of them came from a simillar cultural background which is generally not particulary problematic from an integration perspective.

[LanternWaste]

89. It's called acculturation and it works in both directions

It's called acculturation and it works in both directions. As successful as the immigrants have been in adopting US cultural and social mores, the U.S. has been equally successful in itself adopting foreign cultural and social mores.

Acculturation is a force that has been happening since the dawn of mankind. It simply happens slower than our current desire for instant-gratification would like...

[closeupready]

50. Watch the vast majority of Sarkozy apologists ignore American Mormon and Amish.

Only two among many.

To say nothing of those who fled French oppression to found and settle New Orleans.

[SquireJons]

68. Mormons? Amish?

Are you serious?

First; both communities have experienced tremendous discrimination and repression for pretty much all of their existence in the US.

Second; who knew that Mormons have their own (or any) culture? Though I always did wonder who The Osmond Family appealed to. So you may have me on this one. I guess that means that US Catholics have their own culture also?

Third; I'm not sure whether the Amish are a fair comparison to the Muslim populations in Europe. For one thing, they're not immigrants, and also the Amish share many cultural aspects with most other Americans. It seems more of a religious difference rather than cultural. But they do stand apart from the rest of society which puts them at risk.

Perhaps a better example might be the Native Americans who live on reservations. But I wouldn't classify that as a success story.

[Rage for Order]

51. Go Sarkozy!

[sudopod]

54. Have you ever read a US history book?

This is the shit we tried to get away from. If a man can't live according to his conscience--as far as it does not infringe on others--then no matter how much red, white, and blue is in the flag or how many monuments and holidays are prefixed with "Freedom", then he is not free. The right of your neighbor to live their lives as they see fit is the definition of freedom; it is written into the very fabric of the nation and can be clearly seen in the debates and letters of the authors of the nation. That you would sit there and applaud this unspeakable hateful right-wing demagoguery makes me ill.

[closeupready]

59. Given the simplemindedness on display, not likely.

nt

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sudopod]

55. I've definitely got a rage.

Pic related:

[LeftishBrit]

53. People like Sarkozy and Cameron play on the ambiguity of words like 'multiculturalism'

It can be used to refer to a situation where different cultures are to varying degrees separate; continue to follow their own customs and speak their own languages; and have relatively little contact with one another, versus a melting-pot where cultures mix and end up as a single hybrid culture, where the original majority-culture is usually expected to constitute the largest part of the mix. There is room for a real debate about which is best - both extremes can have their problems IMO.

However, it can also be code for 'no immigrants!' And thus people like Cameron and Sarkozy can on the one hand appeal to relative liberals with a call for melting-pot type integration, while at the same time appealing to the xenophobes who are interpreting it as meaning that immigrants can't or won't integrate anyway, and therefore we shouldn't have any!

It's a quite deliberate ambiguity IMO - to appeal to very different constituencies.

[sudopod]

57. Well said.

+Graham's number

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. agreed. i think the new form of racism and most other bigotry

is becoming interestingly subtle, so subtle that most 'decent' people can accept it

[MikeW]

74. why

Is wanting to protect French history, culture and language considered racist?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. i understand four languages.

Portuguese, English, Spanish and Code.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherina]

69. Citoyens do something. Get that buffoon off the stage! Merci en avance. n/t

[MikeW]

70. people are blowing this out of proportion

theres nothing wrong with "If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France,"

In fact Britan and France have serious issues with immigrants setting up shop essentially their own little countries and not adopting some French ways.

Sorry but he's right.

Immigration without the immigrants RECOGNITION of the HOST COUNTRY, its values, culture and language doesnt work.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. people are viewing this too simplistically. immigrants are never beyond the law

since the law applies equally. this is about french distaste for muslims. including moderate muslims. there is no one culture in a country, even without the presence of 'outsiders'. pretending so, doesnt make it true.

we in nyc mercifully do not share the same culture as people in rural pennsylvania. different immigrant groups have shaped the culture of different parts of this country. values, culture and language change over time anyway

this is about french racism, spoken politely.


also i find it hilarious that people on a democratic board agree that we should have one culture. if we did the democrats would lose every single time as the culture of white males in this country, is largely to vote republican.

[MikeW]

73. my post wasnt about 1 culture

My post was about UNIFIED CITIZENSHIP

Which includes adopting values, history, politics, and citizenry of the HOST COUNTRY.

That also includes a COMMON language.

Without that you just have a bunch of small individual countries living within another's borders.

Anyone can apply and get a piece of paper that says they are a citizen of a country but TRUE citizenship
means adopting that country, its ideals, culture and language as your own.

[Turborama]

82. Tell that to the English expats who've been moving over & Anglicizing areas of France for decades

They have been establishing their own neo-colonial English speaking enclaves in places like Normandy, Britanny, The Dordogne and Provence since the 60s.

Or do they not count, and this only applies for 'others'?

This from the Torygraph, no less: Expats hope to rule their little Britain in France

[Turborama]

86. "Britan and France have serious issues with immigrants setting up shop" LMFAO!

"Britan and France have serious issues with immigrants setting up shop essentially their own little countries and not adopting some French ways."


Tell that to the English expats who've been moving over & Anglicizing areas of France for decades



The hypocrisy in this pervasive attitude is so... telling.

[JVS]

75. ... says the Hungarian who rules France.

[MikeW]

76. correction

of HUNGARIAN decent

He's French first and speaks the language.

Get your facts straight and dont confuse ethnic decent with citizenship.

[roamer65]

81. These denounciations really seem rooted in the fear of Islamic culture.

Seems to be the same fear as when the Ottoman Turk empire was sitting on the doorstep of Europe.

I think they are ramping up to set stict quotas on immigration from Islamic countries.

Just my humble 2 cents.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. I ate at a Polish restaurant yesterday.

In Brooklyn. Full of people speaking Polish. The TV was in a Polish channel. It was great.

Fuck Sarkozy and his RW trolling.

[LanternWaste]

90. It would seem Sarkozy fears other cultures and andtradtions almost as much as...

It would seem Sarkozy fears other cultures and and traditions (i.e., acculturation) almost as much as as few posters on this thread do.

[bemildred]

92. Monoculturism hasn't done so well either, dipshit. nt