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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:36 PM
Original message
Generals' Assessment...liken war to Vietnam (ABC WNT just now)
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/generals_war_a...

April 7 In the past few days, coalition troops have seen some of the worst fighting in Iraq since the United States invaded the country over a year ago.

Peter Jennings spoke to two retired U.S. generals to get their perspective on the recent surge of violence in Iraq: Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold, who was director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the run-up to the Iraq war, and Maj. Gen. William Nash, who was a commander in the Persian Gulf War and in Bosnia.

Cut to pages 1 and 2

Peter Jennings: How much trouble are U.S. forces suddenly in, if they are suddenly in trouble?

Nash: In my view, the forces are in less trouble than the overall policy on the end state, if you will, of Iraq. That's the issue that must be at the forefront of all military operations.

Peter Jennings: Gen. Newbold?

Newbold: I completely agree. I said it's being fought at the tactical and strategic level. At the tactical level, our troops are performing magnificently. At the strategic level, we should ask whether we have a coherent plan, using all the elements, economic, political, diplomatic, informational, throughout the region, not just Iraq. To diffuse the reasons why they are suicidal in coming after us, I don't think we're doing well.

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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Choice of words
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 06:40 PM by wryter2000
"since we invaded the country," not "since the war began."
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yup, no military problem, just peachy, everything is fine. nt
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't see any reference to Vietnam??

...where do you get that?
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Page 3- I didn't include that in the original post
Welcome to DU By the way

Here it is. I had to use the headline such that it is.

Peter Jennings: Is it intelligence that drives your operations in a situation like Iraq? And does that sound like Vietnam?

Nash: It does sound like Vietnam. It sounds like a classic case of fighting an insurgency where you are behind the power curve with respect to information because it's mostly human intel, not electronic fact. It's impossible to have the necessary situational awareness of the environment as you conduct operations.

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dw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. And just before that Nash says...
...(US troops) are in an environment that is not war. It is an insurgency against a public security mission that the soldiers are trying to perform for the people of Iraq. So they are not able to engage regular military forces using the strengths that we have to attack their weaknesses.

Now that sure sounds like Vietnam to me. dw
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Newbold"...Saddam was a paper tiger" from defenselink.mil
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 07:11 PM by underpants
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040325-...

A little more than half way down.



THOMAS WHITE (FORMER SECRETARY OF THE ARMY): It clearly was a war of choice. We had not been able to establish that there was an imminent threat.



MS. MATTHEWS: The threat was certainly distorted and exaggerated in dozens and dozens and dozens of statements from the president on down.



MR. MCWETHY: Critics say that you and your advisors exaggerated the importance of the intelligence prior to going into Iraq. Yes? No?



SEC. RUMSFELD: False. When I spoke, I quoted generally public unclassified Central Intelligence Agency analysis and youll find my remarks are not terribly (audio break) came out of people in the past administration who said essentially the same things.



MR. CLARKE: The question is, was there an imminent threat to the United States? And the intelligence did not support that.



GEN. NEWBOLD: I think Saddam Hussein was a paper tiger.



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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The "classic case of fighting an insurgency" FAILS to acknowledge,...
,...the common sense "human" element. All common sense about being human being is shoved aside by the disconnected adherence to a tactical chess game. It is quite sad.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. IT is IRAQ-NAM
No jungle but the same type of ClusterFuck.

At least 5 of US that have the RVN Campaign Avatar at DU warned the masses here in Feb, Mar 2003 that we were going into Iraq-Nam.

I have used that title for a year now.. Its too bad the old posts have been lost. I was ridiculed, insulted and told to grow up.

I would love to rub these posts in the faces of the sorry MotherFuckers who said we (the Veterans of Viet-Nam) had been in the Jungle too long, etc etc. The Dino Dems who wanted to kick Saddam's ass-- by ourselves and not wait for the UN no way.

Unfortunately 2 mothers in my small county (Brown, WI) today learned their 18 + 20 year old Marine sons were killed yesterday.

It sucks today and we warned them. One of these boys graduated from Pulaski, WI High School in June 2003 today he is dead. FOR WHAT?

</end Rant>
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Indeed. And many of those people are the rabid anti-dissent Kerry fans...
...who of course ignore the fact that Kerry could very well be our LBJ.

Pathetic.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. More like Algeria
A Faux military analyst today did not go according to the script, choosing instead to lambaste the entire Iraq policy, and making references to the documentary "The Battle for Algeria" and its similarities to Iraq's intifada.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. ABC (Jennings said) that "infantada" was said many times today......
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 06:51 PM by underpants
in Arab editorials and on the street. That was part of their lead story not this segment.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I saw the ABC report after I posted my reply
We are on Central Time (not really, it's just that Indiana does not move the clocks forward).

The two generals sounded very pessimistic. Bottom line: one cannot substitute military might for a coherent policy. There is no policy!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:56 PM
Original message
The BBC report was worse
more accurate too, probably.

They said that the people on the streets were in a "rage" (not sure which city). Then they showed a man who said that the people would no longer fight under the disguises of the masks (cloth wraps around their heads).......I thought yeah okay I don't see you........he pulls off the the cloth to expose his face and the sizeable crownd and he go wild.

PS_ I thought only two counties in Indiana didn't change their clocks. :shrug:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. 2 Eastern Indiana counties change to EDT
and Lake County in Northern Indiana changes to CDT.

Most of the state remains happily in Eastern Time all year round (no daylight savings time).
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. The Battle of Algiers and Its Lessons-TomDispatch
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0907-07.htm

"The FLN wants to throw us out of Algeria. We want to
stay. . . . We are soldiers. Our duty is to win." And, finally,
"If your answer is 'yes' Algeria], you must accept the consequences."
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. We (or the French in this case) "are backed by divine right"
For most Europeans in Algeria, there are two complementary and inseparable truths: the colonists are backed by divine right, the natives are sub-human. This is a mythical interpretation of reality, since the riches of the one are built on the poverty of the other.

Our troops are being killed and maimed, and the Iraqis are being butchered, for the sake of Halliburton's contracts and cheap gas for our SUVs.

Thank you for posting this article.
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hadrons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. "The Battle for Algeria" isn't a documentary ....
but its an incredible film ... see http://www.filmforum.com/films/algiers.html
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Excellent Film


I mentioned on one of the forums that I saw this film during the radical days of the Civil Rights movement.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. He put that very well
But what I'm hearing from these military types lately makes me afraid -- my son approaches his 17th birthday . . .

http://www.wgoeshome.com


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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Floating across various websites-Syria Iran Israel words pop up
as in - the only way bushco gets out of this is
to escalate, expand the crisis.

Then tonite, CBS mentions that US thinks Fallujah
Ramadi forces are coming from Syria.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Your son could just.. turn gay suddenly... if it comes to a draft
I wonder if the draft board still cares if an 18 year old says 'I'm questioning my sexuality".
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. The generals said it /my wife and I saw it n/t
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. -
Saw it?

In Vietnam or today? If you feel comfortable, thanks.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. we were watching TV when the Generals told Peter ...
that Iraq resembles Vietnam.

I feel comfortable, a little sinus this AM but
now I feel OK, thanks underpants
James
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. I saw Vietnam from the deaths coming into the Miss. Delta
I lived w/ Vietnam, thought it was part of my life
until '73. The first in my family not to join
the USmilitary because of Vietnam.

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. I saw it They said it
I said it
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Yes you did
I might not have said those same words but my foremost concern was that of "the troops" as I have literally been a "Trooper" though never in hostile areas.

Sad. Preventable. Unneccesry. Wrong. Illegal.

I'm sick of this "What do we do now""What is YOUR solution?" crap. The point is to punish those who made these ill formed decisions and made BEFORE they were in office.

There apparently (Clarke, Newbold, etc.) who were SCREAMING that this was a bad situation to get into. No one listened. 638 as of today.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wes Clark had similar comments on Mon. on CNN
That surrounding a city or more troops were just STRATEGIC moves....
The real question was the political solution that would solve problems.

He nailed the Admin. on not being able to get past CHALABI....their chosen puppet. He said the Admin has to get past Chalabi and really talk to all groups before any progress can be made on the political front. (and, basically, unless you do that, you ain't gonna solve the problem with military strategy...in fact, he said we couldn't win militarily...in fact, we could LOSE unless the political situation was resolved....

Clark for VP...please, oh please!!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Link to Clark's comments GD thread
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Yes. Clark's hammer on the Chalabi factor cracked me up!!!!
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 07:23 PM by Just Me
After all, Chalabi is one of those BIG dots that connect the corporatist picture. Corporatists = fascists or corporate imperialists,...they are the same animal just a marginally different breed.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Chalabi is not "an honest man"
seems like Sadr's request that we turn the rule of Iraq over to "an honest man" is a pointed reference to Chalabi, who is ALL OVER the IGC, along with his cronies.

Yes, let's dump Chalabi for Christ's sake!
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fizzana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. at least a couple of talking heads are starting to see the big
picture.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. Chess saying:
"You don't get good tactics out of bad strategy."

So these guys are being fairly cutting, you can be utterly brillent tacticaly but if your strategy sucks then you are going nowhere which is exactly what is happening.

The u.s. would be a lot more efficient if it cut it's military by 75%, because then brains would have to be engaged before going to war whereas at the moment the massive military superority makes people complacent.

Hitler was complacent when he thought he could just invade the Soviet Union militarily when all he had to do was wander in and say "I'm de-collectivising agriculture."

Wilson's Fourteen Points before the u.s. entry into WWI, that was good intelligent conduct of the war.

bush* isn't even any good for the pro-war people, he just doesn't have what it takes.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
26. it's not anything like VietNam so stop saying that!
VietNam is all jungly, and Iraq is not. You are lieing!

(having a Boudelang moment, sorry)
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. ....and anyway they look different..........
so stop saying that
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Check # 29 above
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heidler Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. And as Senator M Cain said (not a quote) many more of our boys died in
in the Nam war. However the over riding similarity is the stupidity of the US Gov. in thinking we had the stomach for deaths, higher gas prices and the cost of war. We are limited in what we can do by the impact these stupid wars have on our immediate life style. Consequently we must have the political drive to negotiate peace.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
32. It was not just ABC....
I saw all of those pre-warmongering generals, ex-military whomevers on several channels today, cnn, msrnc, cbs etc. They ALL looked somber and pissed at how this could have happened. Well guess fucking what you cheerleading creeps... you asked for a half-assed aWol* war, You got it! ... :grr:
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Got that right LC
a half-assed aWol * war
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. A quote from Blackhawk Down
"you see all this ?? it is simply shaping tomorrow ... a tomorrow without a lot of Arkansas white boys ....
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. That doesn't look like it's going away very soon
But I guess many knew that :-(

* even gives the word AWOL a worse reputation

Giving the the word TREASON a good run for the money, ta'boot
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
37. Its hard to imagine this getting anyworse-
to think Bush took this country from 9/11 to this day is incomprehensible to me-all this death destruction and saddness-the rethugs are nothing but chickenhawks who used 9/11 to steal the american flag and what it stands for and then ordered this war-to hell with wars of choice- what the fuck is that? there should be no wars of choice in this country-how do you choose to ask your troops to die? then to live with killing another-war is the last alternative to any crisis not the first or second-doing what they did in iraq is just not excusable in a democracy-throw them all out of office and strike their names from history
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