Generals' Assessment...liken war to Vietnam (ABC WNT just now)

[underpants]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/generals_war_a...

April 7 — In the past few days, coalition troops have seen some of the worst fighting in Iraq since the United States invaded the country over a year ago.

Peter Jennings spoke to two retired U.S. generals to get their perspective on the recent surge of violence in Iraq: Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold, who was director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the run-up to the Iraq war, and Maj. Gen. William Nash, who was a commander in the Persian Gulf War and in Bosnia.

Cut to pages 1 and 2

Peter Jennings: How much trouble are U.S. forces suddenly in, if they are suddenly in trouble?

Nash: In my view, the forces are in less trouble than the overall policy on the end state, if you will, of Iraq. That's the issue that must be at the forefront of all military operations.

Peter Jennings: Gen. Newbold?

Newbold: I completely agree. I said it's being fought at the tactical and strategic level. At the tactical level, our troops are performing magnificently. At the strategic level, we should ask whether we have a coherent plan, using all the elements, economic, political, diplomatic, informational, throughout the region, not just Iraq. To diffuse the reasons why they are suicidal in coming after us, I don't think we're doing well.

[wryter2000]

1. Choice of words

"since we invaded the country," not "since the war began."

[bemildred]

2. Yup, no military problem, just peachy, everything is fine. nt

[skooooo]

3. I don't see any reference to Vietnam??

...where do you get that?

[underpants]

7. Page 3- I didn't include that in the original post

Welcome to DU By the way

Here it is. I had to use the headline such that it is.

Peter Jennings: Is it intelligence that drives your operations in a situation like Iraq? And does that sound like Vietnam?

Nash: It does sound like Vietnam. It sounds like a classic case of fighting an insurgency where you are behind the power curve with respect to information because it's mostly human intel, not electronic fact. It's impossible to have the necessary situational awareness of the environment as you conduct operations.

[dw]

13. And just before that Nash says...

...(US troops) are in an environment that is not war. It is an insurgency against a public security mission that the soldiers are trying to perform for the people of Iraq. So they are not able to engage regular military forces using the strengths that we have to attack their weaknesses.

Now that sure sounds like Vietnam to me. dw

[underpants]

21. Newbold"...Saddam was a paper tiger" from defenselink.mil

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040325-...

A little more than half way down.



THOMAS WHITE (FORMER SECRETARY OF THE ARMY): It clearly was a war of choice. We had not been able to establish that there was an imminent threat.



MS. MATTHEWS: The threat was certainly distorted and exaggerated in dozens and dozens and dozens of statements from the president on down.



MR. MCWETHY: Critics say that you and your advisors exaggerated the importance of the intelligence prior to going into Iraq. Yes? No?



SEC. RUMSFELD: False. When I spoke, I quoted generally public unclassified Central Intelligence Agency analysis and you’ll find my remarks are not terribly – (audio break) – came out of people in the past administration who said essentially the same things.



MR. CLARKE: The question is, was there an imminent threat to the United States? And the intelligence did not support that.



GEN. NEWBOLD: I think Saddam Hussein was a paper tiger.

[Just Me]

14. The "classic case of fighting an insurgency" FAILS to acknowledge,...

,...the common sense "human" element. All common sense about being human being is shoved aside by the disconnected adherence to a tactical chess game. It is quite sad.

[saigon68]

29. IT is IRAQ-NAM

No jungle but the same type of ClusterFuck.

At least 5 of US that have the RVN Campaign Avatar at DU warned the masses here in Feb, Mar 2003 that we were going into Iraq-Nam.

I have used that title for a year now.. Its too bad the old posts have been lost. I was ridiculed, insulted and told to grow up.

I would love to rub these posts in the faces of the sorry MotherFuckers who said we (the Veterans of Viet-Nam) had been in the Jungle too long, etc etc. The Dino Dems who wanted to kick Saddam's ass-- by ourselves and not wait for the UN no way.

Unfortunately 2 mothers in my small county (Brown, WI) today learned their 18 + 20 year old Marine sons were killed yesterday.

It sucks today and we warned them. One of these boys graduated from Pulaski, WI High School in June 2003 today he is dead. FOR WHAT?

</end Rant>

[Zhade]

34. Indeed. And many of those people are the rabid anti-dissent Kerry fans...

...who of course ignore the fact that Kerry could very well be our LBJ.

Pathetic.

[IndianaGreen]

4. More like Algeria

A Faux military analyst today did not go according to the script, choosing instead to lambaste the entire Iraq policy, and making references to the documentary "The Battle for Algeria" and its similarities to Iraq's intifada.

[underpants]

8. ABC (Jennings said) that "infantada" was said many times today......

in Arab editorials and on the street. That was part of their lead story not this segment.

[IndianaGreen]

11. I saw the ABC report after I posted my reply

We are on Central Time (not really, it's just that Indiana does not move the clocks forward).

The two generals sounded very pessimistic. Bottom line: one cannot substitute military might for a coherent policy. There is no policy!

[underpants]

The BBC report was worse

more accurate too, probably.

They said that the people on the streets were in a "rage" (not sure which city). Then they showed a man who said that the people would no longer fight under the disguises of the masks (cloth wraps around their heads).......I thought yeah okay I don't see you........he pulls off the the cloth to expose his face and the sizeable crownd and he go wild.

PS_ I thought only two counties in Indiana didn't change their clocks.

[IndianaGreen]

18. 2 Eastern Indiana counties change to EDT

and Lake County in Northern Indiana changes to CDT.

Most of the state remains happily in Eastern Time all year round (no daylight savings time).

[jmcgowanjm]

20. The Battle of Algiers and Its Lessons-TomDispatch

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0907-07.htm

"The FLN wants to throw us out of Algeria. We want to
stay. . . . We are soldiers. Our duty is to win." And, finally,
"If your answer is 'yes' Algeria], you must accept the consequences."

[IndianaGreen]

24. We (or the French in this case) "are backed by divine right"

For most Europeans in Algeria, there are two complementary and inseparable truths: the colonists are backed by divine right, the natives are sub-human. This is a mythical interpretation of reality, since the riches of the one are built on the poverty of the other.

Our troops are being killed and maimed, and the Iraqis are being butchered, for the sake of Halliburton's contracts and cheap gas for our SUVs.

Thank you for posting this article.

[hadrons]

35. "The Battle for Algeria" isn't a documentary ....

but its an incredible film ... see http://www.filmforum.com/films/algiers.html

[goclark]

38. Excellent Film

I mentioned on one of the forums that I saw this film during the radical days of the Civil Rights movement.

[boobooday]

5. He put that very well

But what I'm hearing from these military types lately makes me afraid -- my son approaches his 17th birthday . . .

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[jmcgowanjm]

10. Floating across various websites-Syria Iran Israel words pop up

as in - the only way bushco gets out of this is
to escalate, expand the crisis.

Then tonite, CBS mentions that US thinks Fallujah
Ramadi forces are coming from Syria.

[mondo joe]

12. Your son could just.. turn gay suddenly... if it comes to a draft

I wonder if the draft board still cares if an 18 year old says 'I'm questioning my sexuality".

[jmcgowanjm]

6. The generals said it /my wife and I saw it n/t

[underpants]

9. -

Saw it?

In Vietnam or today? If you feel comfortable, thanks.

[jmcgowanjm]

15. we were watching TV when the Generals told Peter ...

that Iraq resembles Vietnam.

I feel comfortable, a little sinus this AM but
now I feel OK, thanks underpants
James

[jmcgowanjm]

17. I saw Vietnam from the deaths coming into the Miss. Delta

I lived w/ Vietnam, thought it was part of my life
until '73. The first in my family not to join
the USmilitary because of Vietnam.

[saigon68]

31. I saw it They said it

I said it

[underpants]

33. Yes you did

I might not have said those same words but my foremost concern was that of "the troops" as I have literally been a "Trooper" though never in hostile areas.

Sad. Preventable. Unneccesry. Wrong. Illegal.

I'm sick of this "What do we do now""What is YOUR solution?" crap. The point is to punish those who made these ill formed decisions and made BEFORE they were in office.

There apparently (Clarke, Newbold, etc.) who were SCREAMING that this was a bad situation to get into. No one listened. 638 as of today.

[Gloria]

16. Wes Clark had similar comments on Mon. on CNN

That surrounding a city or more troops were just STRATEGIC moves....
The real question was the political solution that would solve problems.

He nailed the Admin. on not being able to get past CHALABI....their chosen puppet. He said the Admin has to get past Chalabi and really talk to all groups before any progress can be made on the political front. (and, basically, unless you do that, you ain't gonna solve the problem with military strategy...in fact, he said we couldn't win militarily...in fact, we could LOSE unless the political situation was resolved....

Clark for VP...please, oh please!!

[underpants]

22. Link to Clark's comments GD thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Just Me]

25. Yes. Clark's hammer on the Chalabi factor cracked me up!!!!

After all, Chalabi is one of those BIG dots that connect the corporatist picture. Corporatists = fascists or corporate imperialists,...they are the same animal just a marginally different breed.

[librechik]

28. Chalabi is not "an honest man"

seems like Sadr's request that we turn the rule of Iraq over to "an honest man" is a pointed reference to Chalabi, who is ALL OVER the IGC, along with his cronies.

Yes, let's dump Chalabi for Christ's sake!

[fizzana]

19. at least a couple of talking heads are starting to see the big

picture.

[legin]

23. Chess saying:

"You don't get good tactics out of bad strategy."

So these guys are being fairly cutting, you can be utterly brillent tacticaly but if your strategy sucks then you are going nowhere which is exactly what is happening.

The u.s. would be a lot more efficient if it cut it's military by 75%, because then brains would have to be engaged before going to war whereas at the moment the massive military superority makes people complacent.

Hitler was complacent when he thought he could just invade the Soviet Union militarily when all he had to do was wander in and say "I'm de-collectivising agriculture."

Wilson's Fourteen Points before the u.s. entry into WWI, that was good intelligent conduct of the war.

bush* isn't even any good for the pro-war people, he just doesn't have what it takes.

[librechik]

26. it's not anything like VietNam so stop saying that!

VietNam is all jungly, and Iraq is not. You are lieing!

(having a Boudelang moment, sorry)

[underpants]

27. ....and anyway they look different..........

so stop saying that

[saigon68]

30. Check # 29 above

[heidler]

41. And as Senator M Cain said (not a quote) many more of our boys died in

in the Nam war. However the over riding similarity is the stupidity of the US Gov. in thinking we had the stomach for deaths, higher gas prices and the cost of war. We are limited in what we can do by the impact these stupid wars have on our immediate life style. Consequently we must have the political drive to negotiate peace.

[leftchick]

32. It was not just ABC....

I saw all of those pre-warmongering generals, ex-military whomevers on several channels today, cnn, msrnc, cbs etc. They ALL looked somber and pissed at how this could have happened. Well guess fucking what you cheerleading creeps... you asked for a half-assed aWol* war, You got it! ...

[saigon68]

36. Got that right LC

a half-assed aWol * war

[jmcgowanjm]

39. A quote from Blackhawk Down

"you see all this ?? it is simply shaping tomorrow ... a tomorrow without a lot of Arkansas white boys ....

[nolabels]

40. That doesn't look like it's going away very soon

But I guess many knew that

* even gives the word AWOL a worse reputation

Giving the the word TREASON a good run for the money, ta'boot

[rfkrocks]

37. Its hard to imagine this getting anyworse-

to think Bush took this country from 9/11 to this day is incomprehensible to me-all this death destruction and saddness-the rethugs are nothing but chickenhawks who used 9/11 to steal the american flag and what it stands for and then ordered this war-to hell with wars of choice- what the fuck is that? there should be no wars of choice in this country-how do you choose to ask your troops to die? then to live with killing another-war is the last alternative to any crisis not the first or second-doing what they did in iraq is just not excusable in a democracy-throw them all out of office and strike their names from history