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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:59 PM
Original message
WP: U.S. Military's Tactic in Fallujah is to Draw Fire, Then Pursue
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57805-20...

U.S. Military's Tactic in Fallujah is to Draw Fire, Then Pursue

By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, April 7, 2004; 12:30 PM


FALLUJAH, April 7--The tactic in Fallujah is to advance, deliberately drawing fire from insurgents, so they can be pursued, encircled and subdued or killed. It's dangerous work and the U.S. Marines step warily.

On the whole, say the commanders of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, the operation has gone well.

"It's just one fight after another," said Lance Cpl. Ignacio Real. "If you kill somebody, you wait until the other guy comes out to drag him away and then you kill him too."

Davila was here before, during the invasion of Iraq a year ago. "Last time was much better," he said. "Your job was to secure an objective, take it and wait for the next one. This time it's 24-seven."

"This time it's the little things that can kill you," said Cpl. Richard Savick. "If you don't pay attention, if you gaze off into space, if you take a turn too slowly, somebody can shoot you."



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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Those dumb Iraqis it is too bad
they do not read the Internet.... ya right.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Remember. They often take blood feuds seriously and must
avenge the death of a relative. Sunnis represent about 5 million people and frequently intermarry with the Shi'ites.

We had 3000 people killed and invaded Afghanistan. We're still enraged about it, as well we should be. Iraq was of no threat to us and invaded anyways; killing over 10,000 of their citizens. Oh, but they're not mad at all. They're not like the "Christian" nation.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. save you effort alcuno...
fire wire wants the US to get those savage muslim terrorists and won't be swayed... :eyes:
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
36. Yes, an revenge is often misdirected, like our invasion of Afghanistan
instead of the investigation of a crime and apprehension of the actual plotters.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. You are so funny! Did it occur to you that their are a lot more of them
than there are US soldiers? And they have the anger of righteousness on their side since we are the bad guys invading them without provocation. Still sound like a good idea?
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Um.....they kill the guy who comes to drag away the body.
Oh well, they're all terrorists anyways. My TV tells me so.
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Fixated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. ....
There's probably a 99% chance that person is an insurgent also.
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lightbulb Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. The only difference between an insurgent and a typical Iraqi
Is whether or not the individual has taken to shooting at the Americans. Nearly all of them hate our troops in their country now, because nearly all of them have known or loved someone who's been killed by US forces.

The "let God sort 'em out" mentality seems to be growing daily among our troops, and that spells disaster.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. iraq is a nation of insurgents
except chalabi. he's just a petty con artist.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Coincidentally enough....
The Iraqi's strategy seems to be exactly the opposite: Draw pursuit, and THEN fire.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Right...draw them into an ambush. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. LOL!
and both of them think they're really smart.

The gods of war are happy today.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. HM3 Navy Medic KILLED in Vietnam, trying to save the wounded
my cousin, Charlie, was only 19 year old...he was able to save a man, then went out again and was KILLED....silver star, purple heart DEAD....the silver star is for VALOR in combat...Charlie's dad died from grief shortly afterwards...never got over the loss of his only son...you can visit Charlie on the Vietnam Wall, panel 7E....


so now, U.S. Military waits to KILL those medics, who attend to their wounded...how despicable...
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I kinda doubt these folks
have the equivalent of a Navy corpsman or other protected medic. They're not real big on the GC. Armed soldiers trying to pull one of their buddies to safety are legit targets.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. that's exactly what the Vietnamese thought about Charlie....

there used to be a time when it was honorable to allow people to drag their wounded off the battlefield....

under bush*...OUR soldiers are KILLING the wounded AND KILLING those who attempt to rescue the wounded....
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Wounded soldiers are still legit targets.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:03 PM by leanings
Until they surrender or are positively ID'd as unable to resist, i.e. captured. After that they are entitled to the same medical treatment that the captors have available for themselves. And while it might be possible to let an opponent recover his wounded in a set-piece battle, it doesn't happen in an urban fight like this. I can't think of anyone allowing for the recovery of wounded on a battlefield since WWII, matter of fact.

It just makes sense. A guy lying out in the street might have a flesh wound or concussion injury and if he's let go he might be back up with a rifle in 20 minutes. Taking that risk in the name of chivalry could very well get you or your buddies killed.

Edit for typo.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. degrading military families, who made the ultimate sacrifice, will
get you nowhere on this board...

Charlie was honored with a SILVER STAR for valor on the battlefield...that was for SAVING A GUY'S LIFE, a guy who was wounded....

and once in a while, I go down to the Vietnam Wall here in OUR Nation's Capital...and talk to Charlie, panel 7E...because the grief just never goes away...he was my cousin, we grew up together, we were close friends...and yes, Charlie carried a gun...

there is no need to degrade that service to the United States....there is no need for you to degrade those who gave their lives to save their buddies...IMO, saving your buddies is the HIGHEST level of valor...and every single person defending any country could only pray that a guy like Charlie shows up when they need him.....

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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Your cousin was an unarmed combatant
Protected by the Geneva Convention. These insurgents are armed combantants that are legal targets until they surrender or are incapictated as to be unable to fight any longer.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. that's not true..and I do not appreciate your remarks about my DEAD cousin


how would YOU know if my DEAD cousin Charlie was armed?

"your cousin was an unarmed combantant'....


just so all DUers KNOW THE TRUTH...and to combat against the lies being spread about my DEAD cousin Charlie...

Charlie was armed...Charlie was a medic (HM3) in Vietnam....Charlie was honored with a Silver Star for valor in battle for saving another guy's life...Charlie was KILLED in Vietnam... and there is no necessity to continue to rub it in here and prey on grieving military families by spreading lies....

"your cousin was an unarmed combatant" is a LIE...all DUers must know the truth about Charlie's service and refuse to listen to those who are spreading lies about Charlie's military service...
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termo Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
61. any illegal occupation troop seems a legal targets for me
US did use cluster bomb in town, did use deplated uranium... and now we talk about legal target. LOL
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Ummm...
How exactly was I degrading military families? I don't really see how you construed my comments as doing so. I don't doubt the heroism of any Silver Star winner, especially a medic. Designated, marked medics are protected under the Geneva Convention and shooting them is a war crime. You are correct; they can carry weapons, for defensive purposes, to use only when fired upon. Unfortunately we haven't fought any opponents who've respected those restrictions since the Germans. Combatants who try to recover other wounded combatants, on the other hand, are fair game. That's all I was saying.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
50. so, deny, feign ignorance, and fling another attack on military families
who made the ultimate sacrifice....

makes you feel big, does it?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
59. If you look at the posts, leanings, Amen
was directing her reply to #27 posted by Columbia.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. That's why they BARBECUED THE MERCENARIES
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:10 PM by saigon68
NO QUARTER ASKED AND NONE GIVEN IN THIS WAR







WAIT UNTIL THE PICTURE IS JOHNNY MARINE DOWN THE STREET
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. fuckin a right!
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Terrorists
They are just "Rag Heads " anyway screamed the Chimpanzee
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. WAR IS HELL
"KILL THE RAGHEADS" screamed the Clueless War Criminal Chimpanzee
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
52. He sounds like he was an amazing young man.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. The mission of the Marine Rifle Squad
Is to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or to repel the enemy's assault by fire and close combat.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. We need to be more mindful of the civilian children rescuers
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:18 PM by saigon68
Trying to get their mother out of the line of fire. They might be hurt by stray bullets.
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Are you seriously
attempting to contend that these armed bands of men, probably numbering less than 20, are running around with designated, unarmed medical personnel?
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Medics?
You mean other armed combatants? Do you seriously think they are using unarmed personnel in a medic role? You should know better. Under Geneva Conventions, all armed combatants are legal targets.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. BUT BUT these are terrorists
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:19 PM by saigon68
No Geneva convention for them

They ask no quarter they give none.

So kill everything that moves right?
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You ok brother?
You seem a bit troubled today.

:pals:
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Thanks for the hug
Trolling for freepers sorry
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Question for you Saigon.
When you were doing your hitch, how were the US medics armed? What did their ROE look like? Did they usually wear armbands or did they give that up pretty quick? I know there's some difference as to what's considered "defensive" armament betwixt the services; how did your branch do it?

I know how the peacetime Army did it a few years ago but it would be interesting to hear about your experiences as a Vietnam vet.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Nam 1968
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 03:14 PM by saigon68
I was a combat photographer, when the brave ones were shooting the enemy, the crazy ones were shooting the film.

As far as I know no medics wore any identifying marks,(like WW2) red arm bans etc. only the Huey "dust offs" had a red cross on the side, and front under the windshield

The dust off pilots, from what I understood wanted to take the "target" off the side. I guess the leaders wouldn't let them. They said they were easier to spot for the guys on ground trying to load the wounded. All medics I knew carried some kind of weapon, depended on where they were going, most had some type of pistol. I do not know the ROE for medics in the Nam as far as weapons were concerned.

Ask more if you want.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Army medics are armed with 9mm pistols.
I almost got shot when a medic was cleaning his loaded pistol and it went off.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. You don't think Red Crescent is in Fallujah?
We're shooting cameramen in Iraq. You don't think a soldier would put a bullet in a medics head and call it an accident?
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Is there the slightest evidence
that we're discussing Red Crescent workers? Or medics? Or anything other than guys with guns who were just trying to get their wounded buddies out of harm's way?

On the other hand, I find it highly unlikely that these were international NGO medical personnel who took it upon themselves to step out into the middle of a firefight and drag wounded Sunni fighters to safety. I can't think of a precedent.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. I know for a fact that the Red Crescent Society exists in Iraq
But I can also tell you most assuredly that they are not out there pulling wounded insurgents away. Their work is humanitarian only and mostly working with NGOs and doing paperwork.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. PUFF PIECE ALERT!!!
They're trying to justify what's going on. Good thing they weren't around when the enemy dragged saved Jessica Lynch away.

:puffpiece:
rocknation
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yea. We have got them right where we want them. Idiots n/t
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
54. That's right Lt. There are millions of them on all three sides of us...

Lt: "Well, it looks like we got those little gooks right where we want them"...

Firesign Theatre: Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers!
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. Zap Branagan.
You see, I realized the killbots had a preset kill limit. So I sent wave after wave of my men at them until they simply shut down.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. the flypaper theory on an individual level
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. but the flies are conquering the flypaper.
n/t

:evilfrown:
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. Gator hunting using yourself and buddy as bait. Not a good idea. n/t
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
40. A few days ago marines wouldn't give details of any deaths
For fear that the enemy would gain important tactical information. Now they are broadcasting their tactics on the Washington Post and the internet? What gives? Disinformation or p.r.?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Massive casualties get the Sheep roiled up
You can't hide the deaths, this is Amerika you know.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Once again, casualties are an indicator of heroic success...yup. n/t
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
60. Disinformation
exist all over the place. The AP report posted on yahoo (Us marines fight insurgents) states that no civilians died in the mosque assault. Those little ones that were killed must have been armed. Also states that US commanders are giving conflicting reports regarding this incident. Of course this is part of the propaganda disinformation scheme, keep the truth about the indiscriminate killing of civilians in limbo.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
46. Getting to the point of blasting anything that moves
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 03:30 PM by nolabels
This should help with the Peace.

One can only imagine how well this is playing in the rest of the ME or world for that matter.

* is trying to make Sharon look like a piker

on edit: nothing personal, I just find it weird how anybody thinks they can solve anything by killing even more for revenge

Gone beyond the eye for an eye,

"Every snowflake in an avalanche denies responsibility. -Voltaire"

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471
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thebaghwan Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
48. Send Bush there to draw the fire!
n/t
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
53. The U.S. will be judged harshly by history
What makes what we are doing in Iraq - murdering individuals and entire families - different from genocide? News article after news article refers to Iraqis as less than human. They did not declare war on us. We invaded thier homeland.

Saddam was a tyrant, but dead is dead for these people.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Who declared war?
The mission was to remove Saddam. Mission accomplished.

When did we declare war on the Iraqi people? The killing of innocents is war. There was nothing in the IWR that gave our troops any leeway to begin killing Iraqi citizens, but if one of them tries to rescue his brother he is an enemy and shot onsight.

Who declared war on the Iraqi people? This is not bringing democracy to Iraq, it is war! Democracy cannot be forced at the end of a gun.

Not in my name. No friggin' way. This is the fault of warmongerers and those who support this war. You know who you are; your support for marines bringing war to the Iraqi people tells me all I need to know about you evil people. I am ashamed at you.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Not in my name either, BeFree
Iraq is the definition of a quagmire. No matter what the U.S. does now the result will be bad. There is a leadership vacuum there, and the Iraqis are growing weary of being an occupied country.

The thousands of Iraqis who have been killed coupled with the deliberate targeting of mosques will only increase the anger and fury at the U.S.

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. I hope that Iraqis realize that this is a PNAC war. Besides fighting the
wrong country (countries if you want to combine Afghanistan and Saudi Arabis), what we're doing in Iraq, really isn't a war. It is the stupidity of Hussein to bluff and the stupidity of PNAC to be avaricious about money and power and secrecy and scams.

I don't call it a war even though the players are brass, brave souls, corporations, and propagandists and the result is ongoing massacres.

Do you think Iraqis lump us all together?
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
57. Begging for an ambush.
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