Marines bomb Fallujah mosque

[jadedcherub]

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page...

US marines pressing an offensive in this Iraqi town west of Baghdad bombed a mosque in the center of the town Wednesday and killed up to 40 insurgents inside, a marine officer

"We wanted to kill the people inside," said Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrnesaid.

[Flagg]

1. this will have a happy ending I'm sure

[saigon68]

31. But of Course----- Its a 'CRUSADE"

"Kill the Ragheads", shouted the Clueless Sock-Puppet

[reprobate]

83. Slight correction, Flagg. The word is now spelled 'qWagmire'.

[maddezmom]

109. "qWAGmire"

that sums it up, may I use it?

[MaineDem]

2. Shit, I was hoping the first reports of this were wrong

Damn damn damn!!!

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. "We wanted to kill the people inside"

Well, at least he was honest.

[bloom]

124. Just because

a serial killer is honest - does not make him a good guy.

[SpiralHawk]

4. A real swift move, comMander Chimpy

How to win the battle and lose the war.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. I can't believe this.

Oh that's right. Bush is president. It's entirely believable.

[Gman]

6. Not even the word "sanctuary" means anything anymore

Bush would do the same thing here given the opportunity.

[Superfly]

21. Not when that "sanctuary" is being used

to conduct military operations.

[bowens43]

26. As I said in the thread that was locked..

there are no valid military targets in Iraq. Every action taken by US troops should be considered an act of terrorism. There is NO excuse for the bombing of a Mosque. If gunfire is coming from a Mosque then the troops just need to move the hell away from it. The US is the invader. The US started this war. The people of Iraq have a right to defend themselves and the US military has the right to get the hell out.

[The Stranger]

30. Be careful. This could justify attacking nearly anywhere.

And you know that if the same were done to a church, the Fundamentalist Crusade controlling the U.S. would scream for vengeance, that "Christians" were victims, as they have for millenia, all the while mass-murdering hundreds of thousands.

[Gman]

80. To the fundies, there should be no difference between this and

Waco. But of course, you won't hear that from them because that requires thinking and reason.

[mmm]

75. 1. There were also worshipers in that Mosque

2. They are defending their country against evil Occupiers
3. This sin is unforgivable and will come back to haunt us
again and again

[readmylips]

105. Well, they are following Israel Sharon's polocies....

Sharon bombs anything in sight. God forbid, graffiti is found on a Synagogue in any part of the world, Israelites get terribly offended and immediately contact small man bush...bush needs the Florida vote. How many Black churches did the KKK bomb in our own country? Many innocent people were killed back then. Bombing any place of worship is totally unacceptable.

[54anickel]

7. Well, destroying the entire country would guarantee our ability to

pull out in June, wouldn't it?

[benburch]

Several 5 MT Thermonuclear Weapons

ought to do the trick. Just have to make sure to avoid the oil wells, of course.

Seriously, I wonder if the GOP is planning that sort of exit strategy.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. Just think of all that pretty Iraqi glass

that will be available on E-Bay.

[oldcoot]

8. What a chilling statement

This nightmare is getting worse by the minute.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. Hi jadedcherub

Can you change your subject line to match the title of the article? If not, I'm afraid I'll have to lock it.

Thanks!

<on edit: Thanks for doing so! >

[jadedcherub]

16. my first LBN post. ;) sorry!

[lostnfound]

71. Welcome to DU, jadedcherub

Welcome to a place for those who prefer "gloom & doom & TRUTH" over comfortable fiction.

[Dhalgren]

10. C'mon! It was just a mosque, no big deal....

I mean, these people won't care that one of their holy places was bombed, will they?

And before someone says that the insurgents shouldn't have been in the mosque, let us repete the mantra - "It's their country, not ours. It's their country, not ours. It's their country, not ours."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. This NEVER turns out good

It will come out that a handful of the people were targets and the rest were innocents and this WILL be seen as a crusade.

[Supormom]

12. Winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people

Oy!

[chelsea0011]

13. A mosque? What the schools and hospitals weren't inhabited?

Why does this story get me thinking about the neutron bomb? Remember that one. Kill everyone but save the buildings. Some military types are probably wishing right now they would have pushed harder for that bomb a while back.

[Catfight]

14. Someone please enlighten me...

Why can't we use bombs? It appears to me that no matter how much the Iraqi's gather force, the US still over powers them with bombs and ammunition? Or am I totally wrong here?

[maddezmom]

15. it's a Mosque

a holy site to Muslims.

[demdave]

46. It's a Mosque, a holy site to Muslims...sometimes. OIther times....

Shiite mosque blown up in war-torn Iraq

Mar 15, 2004

Shiite mosque under construction in Ghazalia, 25 kilometres (17 miles) west of Baghdad, was blown up overnight, and local residents blamed extremist Sunni Muslims. Four explosives charges caused massive damage to several cement pillars around a prayer room, and the dome that was to have been the centerpiece of the mosque lay in ruins.

http://www.sarawaktribune.com.my/publish/article_26694....

The "holiness" of a mosque has historically been upheld only on the U.S. side. I haven't seen Muslim combatants show very much hesitation to either use them or abuse them.

You shoot someone and run into a church, the police come in after you and kill you there if they must. IN THE U.S

[lostnfound]

74. It's throwing gasoline on a fire.

Don't bother defending it, because regardless of the ethics or logic of it (or LACK THEREOF), the point is that this is the single most best way to utterly enflame the population. This will spread like wildfire in Iraq and throughout Muslim-dominated countries.

Tactically STUPID.

[maddezmom]

114. thanks

you answered for me. It's sad day, when we use another mistake as an excuse to do the same.

[frylock]

113. the police come in after you and kill you there if they must..

right, but the cops don't light up the whole fuckin church. These IDF tactics do nothing but inflame the insurgents.

[lumpy]

128. The US has mangled the truth

so much I find it difficult to believe anything the military or the press has to say, and that includes the blowing up of the mosque in Ghazalia. Who knows the truth of anything.

[The Stranger]

142. Nice try.

Church burnings don't change the fact that they are a sanctuary. Cross burnings don't change the symbol of the cross either.

[demdave]

48. Gunmen Invade Church of Nativity

Wednesday, April 3, 2002

Fighting between Israeli troops and armed Palestinians erupted in Bethlehem late Tuesday with dozens of gunmen forcing their way into the Church of the Nativity, one of the holiest sites in Christianity.
Witnesses said there were dead bodies in front of the church.

"Can you imagine? Can you believe it? They are attacking the Church of Nativity, the Syrian Orthodox Church, and burn and demolish mosques," said Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, who remains under siege in his Ramallah headquarters, in an interview with Qatari television.

Israel accused the gunmen of shooting from inside the holy site, a charge the Palestinians denied.

[nolabels]

76. Does anyone really need know what these folks stand for?

EAGLES LYRICS

"Outlaw Man"

I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son
The highway is my legacy
On the highway I will run
In one hand I've a Bible
In the other I've got a gun
Well, don' you know me
I'm the man who won
Woman don't try to love me
Don't try to understand
A life upon the road is the life of an outlaw man
(snip)
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/outlawman.html

[lumpy]

132. Since it is the SYRIAN Orthodox Church

it is OK with Sharon. Israel accused the gunmen from shooting inside the church. Why would they be shooting? Maybe to defend their church against the IDF "gunmen" forcing their way into the church bent on ending up with more dead enemy bodies.

[Bridget Burke]

19. It's like bombing a church.

This sort of thing is not supposed to be done by civilized people.

Yes, you're totally wrong.

[northzax]

56. please, it's a building

why should we elevate one building over another based on people who died two millenia ago? does this particular building have specific historical or cultural signifigance? or was it another mosque?

and if there were people with weapons inside, then it's a target.

[Minstrel Boy]

64. it's a shelter

And whatever your thoughts on religion, consecrated buildings do hold significance for billions of people.

BTW, have you seen the dead babies?

[northzax]

95. the minute that the religious leader of a shrine

allows combatants to take shelter in that building without disarming, it loses the status of shelter. If you come into my church from a firefight and do not discard your weapon at the door, you don't get shelter.

I have no particular desire to see dead babies, thank you, and I would do anything possible to prevent any babies I know from being close enough to combatants to get killed.

If a religion chooses to allow its consecrated sites to be used by combatants (hey, wait a minute, isn't the guy leading this insurrection a cleric?) who are continuing to engage in combat, then the site loses any protection it might have had.

Let's say it's 1938 and Hilter, Mussolini and Stalin are meeting in a church. We have the chance to bomb that church and remove three combatants. You're saying we should let them go?

What if a sniper is using a church belltower to kill people, is he then sacred?

[Minstrel Boy]

104. Why answer with hypotheticals?

There's no Hitler, there's no Mussolini, there's no Stalin.

Civilians, including infants, were sheltered in a mosque.

[northzax]

115. so were combatants

people were shooting out of the mosque. that's not a hypothetical. that's fact. I know it doesn't fit with your reality of peaceful loving families huddled together to pray, but the mosque was a source of violence. At least five soldiers were hit by gunfire from inside that mosque. Once a religous site becomes a haven for criminal violence, it loses its status. I'm sorry, but that's the reality of war. and this is a war. Do you really think al-Sadr has the best interests of those families in mind? He wants to turn Iraq into a fundamentalist state, he too encourages violence while hiding in a 'place of worship'

This is not civil resistance to an occupying army, this is a violent uprising by a faction interested in gaining power to dominate other factions. It is warlord-ism.

Al-Sadr is not Gandhi, he is not Dr. King, he is not Nelson Mandela. He is a cheap thug interested in gaining power while expending the lives of his followers. In al-Sadr's world those women wouldn't be allowed into that Mosque. Do you really think the women and children of Falluja would be better off under al-Sadr's religious dictatorship? He has announced publically that he has aligned himself with Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. He has never once called for peace, only for war, and yet he is too much of a coward to fight that war himelf.

Why don't you apportion some of your all to easy blame to the cowards who used the mosque and the entailed women and children as shields while shooting people?

[The Magistrate]

122. You Are Correct, Mr. Northzax, Concerning The Legalities Of The Thing

Still, this will have a tremendous recoil effect, greatly energizing the insurgents, and featuring prominently in their propaganda and recruiting....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[northzax]

140. that it may, sir

but I still say that it was, based on current reports, a legitimate military target. Not all legitimate targets should be hit based on broader political ideas, but that is not the role of a soldier on the site to determine.

[daleo]

127. Is this the proper role of the U.S. military?

To go around the world, judging whether the political systems of other countries are acceptable? The Iraq invasion was supposed to have been about weapons of mass destruction. Then it was Saddam Hussein was a bad man. Now it is about preventing religious factions from having influence in foreign governments.

What is next? And which country has to be overthrown next? Why should the U.S., or the western world in general, tell the rest of the world how to run their lives?

This all a scam, it about getting their oil.

By the way, the civilians in the mosque probably felt that their fighters were protecting them from an invading military force, and went their willingly for sanctuary, especially once the U.S. military started rocketing houses in Fallujah. It probably didn't occur to them, that the U.S. would blow up a mosque.

[northzax]

141. I'm sure it didn't occur to them

they probably thought they could use the Mosque for military purposes, as a fire base, and that the US wouldn't hit them, since it was a mosque. oops.

And your other points about the broader conflict are irrelevent to the point at hand. Whether the conflict is, in fact, legitimate, is not the key point. The key point is whether, once in this conflict, this particular site was a legitimate military target. If, in fact, militia were using this site for military purposes, not just as a sanctuary, then it becomes a legitimate military target. I mourn for the victims of this incident, as I mourn for the victims of all these incidents, but I put the blame purely on the hands of the militia who attempted to use mothers and children, innocents, as shields against the repercussions of their actions.

on edit. saddam hussein put anti-aircraft guns on the roofs of hospitals and schools, so destroying them would create unnaceptable civilian casualties. should we then have allowed those sites to stay in operation, risking more lives, to avoid the spectre of civilian damage? who takes the blame for involving civilians in combat, the people who use them as shields, or the people who hit them while destroying military targets? perhaps both, no?

[lumpy]

135. Come on now, you don't have a church, northzax

" If you come into my church from a firefight and do not discard your weapon....". "it's just a building" "What if a sniper is using a church belltower to kill people, is he then sacred?" .... Would you advocate strafing the church to get that one sniper and end up killing worshipers as well as the sniper?

[northzax]

138. who are you to tell what church I do or don't have?

If the worshippers are giving sanctuary to that sniper, then that is an option, yes. Would you advocate allowing the sniper to continue shooting, rather than risk other lives? I might remind you that this is a war, these 'insurgents' started the current phase of the conflict with US troops, they shoot and then run to hide in the mosque. Certainly mosques, churches and temples of any variety should be sacred and safe. But when that place of sanctuary becomes a place of violence and death that protection is removed. you come into my sacred ground looking for sanctuary, you are disarmed, you don't hide in it and shoot other people.

[lumpy]

145. You said it

"It's just a building". Most churches are sactified not "just a building". This is not a war, it was an invasion predicated on lies and it is now a bloodbath because Iraqis do not appreciate having their country deceminated. Look, the US military stated they were going to go all out against the 'insurgents' and they are doing just that. What would anyone expect but resistance to the expectation of losing your life, home and loved ones in revenge for the deaths of 4 undercover military? The occupation of Iraq has detiorated into abject violence on both sides, Americans and Iraqis. Who perpetrated this violent turmoil but the scum occupying the White House? Answer me this.

[TankLV]

146. Now you've lost all respect.

"This is a war - the insurgents started"? Really? You believe this crap?

Last time we looked, it was bunkerboy who started this "war". It's the US under bunkerboy's leadership that INVADED this country BASED ON LIES AND DECEPTION. It's bunkerboy who is getting our soldiers killed, along with the Iraqi's.

These "insurgents" are merely fighting for their "homeland" to drive the invaders - US - out. They are the patriots here.

[northernsoul]

144. that's not how millions of new America-haters are going to see it

whether or not the attack was tactically justified, millions of Arabs watching Al-Jazeera right now are seeing images of muslims who were killed in their place of worship by an invading, occupying force from half-way around the world. Whatever tactical advantage might have been gained from this, it will be eclipsed a thousand times over by it's value to al Queda as a recruiting video.

We've in been manouvered into a position where every tactical victory accelerates our strategic defeat.

[jmcgowanjm]

25. Enlightenment-We went in to liberate the Iraqiis

Everything Washington has said has turned out to be wrong.

To use bombs we have to admit that we've gone into Iraq
to colonize it.

[Catfight]

38. Thank you! I thought this was the reason but, another question...

This has been an illegal war from the beginning, the UN has allowed us to continue to pursue Bush's fanatical crusade, he has demonstrated to the world and America he is a rogue president on an world dominate agenda, so why would bombing a Mosque with 40 people inside, like a church, be of any consequences to Bush or America? He's been out of control since he took office and no one has even touched him, our own congress won't do anything, and American's are rallied behind Bush's stampede of disgrace, so how will this possibly make a bit of difference?

[AZCat]

43. Just because this is his M.O. doesn't mean it doesn't matter

I get your point, but to the people over there it matters very much.

[0007]

29. (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Bong)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


yes, your wrong!

[jmcgowanjm]

17. Every major city is in revolt. And the UScitizen is in denial or

ignorant.

For the past nine nights, for example, the main US base
close to Baghdad airport - and the area around the
terminals - has come under mortar fire. 

But the occupying powers have kept this secret. "Things
are getting very bad and they're going to get worse," a
special forces officer said close to the airport yesterday.
"But no one is saying that - either because they don't
know or because they don't want you to know." 

Robert Fisk

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6006.ht...

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. And meanwhile Bu$h in on vacation

and probably too busy prepping for his 9-11 commission appearance.

[tlcandie]

24. If mari sees this .. she will want a link .. do you have one jmcgowanjm?

Thanks! Again, more confirmation that we've sensed... :/

[jmcgowanjm]

35. Morning tlcandie, I'll source for you anytime

http://www.robert-fisk.com /

I put the informationclearinghouse link in the earlier
post.

[jadedcherub]

20. I didn't hear about this

Late Tuesday, U.S. warplanes destroyed a group of four houses, killing 16 children and up to eight women.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/07/iraq_mess040407

[lumpy]

137. Those 16 children and 8 women killed

were lucky they got one sentence in the article. Evidently the US warplane didn't hit their 'insurgent' target but did succeed in killing the their wives, children and grandmas.

[lanlady]

23. bombing mosques in an Arab country

is an idea worthy of a pea-brained moron of a president.

Let's make sure he goes on permanent vacation, shall we?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

28. Holy cow! Not a good move... Not good at all...

This is certain to make matters much worse.

[still_one]

32. all they had to do was surround the mosque

and wait them out.

by destroying it this will send vibrations to the muslims throughout the region.

[lumpy]

139. The guys with guns get verrrry impatient..

Waco.

[tinnypriv]

33. AP: 40 Reported Killed in Fallujah Mosque

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040407/D81Q005G0.html

Yes. 40.

[Mari333]

34. The mosques in Baghdad have called for a Jihad today.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com /

read it.

Michael is in front of Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, I have heard nothing from him in 3 days.

I have called Senator Byrd's office, and he is going to make a speech demanding that the troops be brought home now, today on the senate floor.
I am preparing for the worst here, if I didnt, I would be in denial.
Im afraid my husband wont survive it if anything happens to Michael.
If you call your Senators and Congresspeople, I would greatly appreciate it, and ask them to bring the troops home now.

[JNelson6563]

53. Mari-I'm meeting

with a Senatorial aide tomorrow. Will pass on the info and see if we can't get you some help. Same folks I talked to last time regarding your other son.

I'll do my best dear. Please hang in there! :hugs:

Julie

[Mari333]

67. Ill PM you Michaels full name

I just got a call from my oldest sons unit, he was honourably discharged remember? they called to ask me where he was. I didnt tell them, I told them he was gone..
Fuck them!! they arent taking my oldest son! they already have one!
Bastards.
I wont tell them where he is, and he wont go if they try to take him.

[JNelson6563]

111. Got it, thanks!

Geez, they're calling for honorably discharged folks? Man they really are in need!

Julie

[dweller]

54. Thank the heavans for Robert Byrd

we should keep a heads up for this today on Cspan.
hang in there Mari333....

calling Sen Edwards now.
dp

[tlcandie]

55. Hang in there Mari .. damned this has got to be the toughtest thing

ever for you and your husband... Heart and thoughts out to everyone involved with this nightmare whose lives are in danger...

[ima_sinnic]

92. Mari, my heart breaks for you and your family

I am thinking of your son and all those innocents, American and Iraqi and all allegiances and nationalities, caught in this madmen's war.

[hel]

36. This is just sick.

And the marines just created thousands -millions?- more "insurgents" in Iraq with this single act.

I can't imagine how the puppet Governing Council will explain this to their people. It is simply unacceptable.

[Andrushka]

79. You are so right..unfortunately

With this now being beamed around the region on TV, it is not just Iraqis now that they have pissed off. It is just unforgiveable, no matter who was inside or how many small arms they had stashed there (according to reports).

ThugCo: Making the World a Safer Place

[skooooo]

37. Is this being covered on any TV stations?

Why can't I seem to find any of this news on CNN or Fox? Or did I miss it?

[chelsea0011]

47. CNN is just picking it up

[skooooo]

39. NPR said 30 Americans dead in Fallujah...

Did anyone else hear that?

[The Stranger]

40. What if someone bombed a Church and killed the people inside?

Interesting that most of the posts note how this is a "bad move" or will somehow have "bad repercussions." Again I am asking the Board, is no one outraged at the act itself -- bombing and killing people taking refuge in what is the equivalent of a church?

[Qanisqineq]

42. I thought that's what we were all talking about??

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[markses]

57. The problem, as I understand the previous poster

Is that everyone is judging it as bad based solely on the possible negative consequences (i.e., its consequences for us).

I expect that the previous poster wants people to judge it as bad in itself, rather than based solely on consequences for us (i.e., that it is bad inherently, rather than as a result of any good or bad effects it causes for us).

[Qanisqineq]

61. I guess I didn't get that feeling

but I haven't been reading all the posts

[BiggJawn]

69. it's ALLLLLL Bad!

Bad for us, bad for the people inside, bad for the people outside, bad for the people in the next town.....

Not one good thing will come from this. Unless you hold Raytheon or UMC stock.

Just when you think the Tar Baby can't get any stickier....

[northernsoul]

149. it is doubly tragic

both for the lives that were lost in this initial incident, and for the countless more lives that will be lost when this incident serves as a galvanizing "Waco"-esqe moment in which the Iraqis who were not taking up arms against us initially will probably now be motivated to do so.

[oldcoot]

50. Yes, I am outraged by the killing of people in a mosque

I agree that bombing a mosque is no different from bombing a church.

[Dhalgren]

51. I just read in another thread where the US bombed 4 houses

in Sadr city, killing 16 mostly children plus a few women. The US forces in Iraq, right now, are killing indiscriminately, bombing houses, churches, anything and everything. The US is a terrorist nation, why get so upset over terrorists acting like terrorists?

[The Stranger]

118. You make an excellent point.

But it is difficult for me to find acceptance of this.

[lostnfound]

78. Outraged here! But outrage has become normal life

in W's America.

[tlcandie]

41. Update from Aljazeera...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/660FF109-9E21-4A...
<snip>
Beleaguered Bulgarian troops called for US reinforcements in Karbala where pitched battles have been fought. And Ukrainian forces, on their part, have pulled out of Kut, the latest southern battle front with al-Sadr supporters.
<snip>

<snip><
Some 1,500 protesters in Hawija denounced what they described as the US massacres in Falluja, where almost 90 people, mainly civilians, have been killed in the last three days. US forces have sealed off Falluja for three days now in an effort to crush the resistance there.
<snip>

EDIT: What I'm seeing in pics from Aljazeera are babies :/ WARNING GRAPHIC!!!!

EDIT #2: Okay, I thought that was a LINK to the pic and I can't find it to take it off .. damned!! Sorry :/ At any rate there is a link on the pictures at Aljazeera... VERY graphic and horrible :/

[Cooley Hurd]

45. OMG!

We are TRULY the NEW EVIL EMPIRE!

I am so ashamed...

[Just Me]

65. My heart hurts.

I, too, am very ashamed of what we have become.

God, please give us guidance to stop this nightmare. God help us.

[VTMechEngr]

136. Is this the picture you were talking about?

[Cooley Hurd]

44. CNN saying 40 dead inside the mosque...

Hit by US missles (this coming from an embedded reporter for the LA Times).

[tinnypriv]

49. From a US warplane

According to Yediot Aharonot news service (Israel), via AP.

40 killed says an eyewitness.

[Rockholm]

116. And MSNBC Website say "near a mosque"

what the eff is going on? We are bombing mosques during prayers? What these terrorists blow up St Patricks during Easter services!

[RedEarth]

52. Real smart..........now we're blowing up mosques...unbelievable..nt

[Magleetis]

58. Every time our

stupid government does something stupid like this the length of time that all Americans will pay grows. Can no one stop this madness. Karma is a bitch. Israel/Palestine the sequel.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. do I have this straight?

This slaughter was launched to avenge the killing of four American mercenaries? Because these ex-special forces, or seals or whatever, were mutilated after they were killed by the resistance? We are now performing this ruthless slaughter on women, children and on Mosques because of these American mercenaries? Is that right?

Sick-

[htuttle]

60. Yes, that's right

But we are NOT as bad as the Nazi's, so stop saying that...

[TankLV]

150. Damn! You beat me to it this time!

Very sad, indeed.

Will someone cut the links to the "History Channel" in the White House and Pentagon? Please? They are getting too many "ideas".

[tlcandie]

63. Yes, Marianne all due to mercs ...

Tiz a sad day when people die for oil, corporations, money, greed, and power, but then what else is war about?

[Catfight]

72. Religion..you forgot Bush's reasoning...

You're either a christian or not, you're either with us or against us, you're either gay or straight, you're either black or white, you're either dead or alive....the mental depth of a four year old.

[SpiralHawk]

84. What's good for Blackwater Security is good for America

you can bet your skull & bones on it.

[uncle ray]

121. yes that, and i think a little bait and switch involved...

they were all hot to get, as whats his name, Al Sadr? last week, he hid in a mosque of course, now ALL he was wanted for was an arrest warrant for killing ONE man. why was he such a high priority? fast forward a couple of days, he is no longer in the mosque, but we bomb a moaque in fallujah, a different city than where he was, right? but people still have Al Sadr in their minds, so they will associate this with going after a known "bad guy", not as sick revenge for 4 dead mercinaries.

[Eurobabe]

62. WTF?????

Oh this is just great...NOT

[AZCat]

66. One of the 'weapon platforms' we're using...

is the AC-130. I posted this in the other thread also, but IMHO it deserves notice.

The Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1187350,00....

Scores die as clashes spread
12 marines killed after attack by dozens of rebels

Jonathan Steele in Baghdad
Wednesday April 7, 2004
<snip>
Abrams tanks and an AC-130 gunship pounded outlying neighbourhoods with shells and machine gun fire. Eight Iraqis were killed and 20 wounded in the fighting, coalition sources said. Last night US planes fired rockets into the town, destroying four houses and killing 26 Iraqis, including women and children, and wounding 30 others, said a doctor at Falluja general hospital.
<snip>

Here is the AC-130: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm

If they are using this then they are NOT concerned about incidental civilian casualties. This is not a 'precision weapon'.

[tlcandie]

68. Read in a report that cluster bombs are being dropped AGAIN as well

[ZR2]

77. No offense, but did you read the article ?

"The AC-130 is an excellent fire support platform with outstanding capabilities. With its extremely accurate fire control system, the AC-130 can place 105mm, 40mm and 25mm munitions on target with first round accuracy. The crew of these aircraft are extremely proficient working in military operations in urban terrain environments."

[AZCat]

82. Yes

The accuracy is in regards to placing the rounds- not the damage. It's basically a flying artillery platform. The new AC-130 flies at ~30,000 ft and yes, it is able to shoot very well. Unfortunately the damage on the ground is extensive.

[lostnfound]

91. Are you being facetious? That's marketing propaganda.

The reality is surely far from that.

"Accuracy" is a popular word to use for covering up the reality of 'collateral damage'. When they start talking about accuracy, red flags should go up in your mind..it's Pentagon propaganda, verbatim.

[lumpy]

143. Jesus Christ,

does it really matter what weapons are used to kill people?

[leftchick]

70. Would it be This Mosque, where they were storing their dead!??

[SoCalDem]

73. Video here of the mosque that was bombed.. In arabic

http://www.aljazeera.net/showMedia.asp?item_No=217447&v...

[Red State Rebel]

81. Ding, Ding, we have a winner!

I am amazed that some people think that no matter what kind of criminal you are if you walk into a church, synagogue, mosque, etc. you are "home free". This isn't a game of hide and seek - this cleric was inciting his followers to kill our soldiers and stirring up as much trouble as he could.

If he would have been in my own basement I would have walked outside and told them bombs away. I value our own soldiers over his building and his followers.

[PassingFair]

88. You appear to be unclear on the concept, SaidFred

Imagine that the US was shocked and awed, then occupied, by Arabs. Then imagine that thousands of Allah pushers are standing by and infiltrating to convert us all to Islam. Now imagine the leader of your church objects to his country being taken over, our innocent people killed,our natural resources stolen and the government handed over to a "provisional" muslim authority for the forseeable future.
Naturally, some defense would be mounted.
Your pastor might naturally head to his church, with his followers, maybe their families.
Now tell me it's OK to bomb the @#$% out of them.

[psychopomp]

89. Think of the world your grand-daughter will inherit

The reprocussions from this event will echo for decades. This only confirmed our barbarity to the very people we need to bring over to our side who were sceptical but giving us a chance.

The diehards who are fighting will go as they choose: fighting. The others, we had a chance to convince, but that chance is lost now.

The U.S.A. will bear the brunt of infamy for at least the life of your lovely girl.

[SOS]

90. "This cleric"

is a Shiite and is currently in Najaf, which is nowhere near Falluja. Falluja is mostly Sunni.
The mosque in Falluja is a seperate issue from the cleric (al-Sadr) cited in your post.

[markses]

102. They all look the same, apparently

The deep confusion in SaidFred's post is bizarre and probably indicative of deeper problems of knowledge.

[xchrom]

94. we are the invaders not them

bush is conducting an illegal war of aggression -- and attacking mosques is bad strategy -- this will only inflame all the residents of fallujah.

[markses]

100. Confused much?

1)This isn't a game of hide and seek - this cleric was inciting his followers to kill our soldiers and stirring up as much trouble as he could.

What cleric? Not as-Sadr, right? Because he would be currently located in an office in Najaf, not in a mosque in Fallujah. What cleric are you speaking about in this sentence? Do you even have the faintest idea of what or who you're discussing? When you say over his building and his followers, what are you talking about, and whom?

2) We have no evidence other than the word of the commander (who probably ordered the attack) that those inside this particular mosque (things, of course, get sticky when you turn to particulars rather than brazen generalities) were "criminal(s)." Perhaps we should all withhold judgment until more information comes out on exactly what happened in Fallujah.

3) Even if those in the mosque were "insurgents," it does not follow that destroying the mosque will make military personnel on the ground safer. That is the problem that most people are bringing up, and that you are failing to address by telescoping on to the mosque, rather than thinking about the particularlity of the mosque bombing in the broader context of events. Most people seem to be arguing that bombing the mosque will not make "our soldiers" (and, I assume, Marines and others) safer; it will make them less safe. Given that conflict, you have to argue how bombing the mosque will make "our soldiers" safer, not that it will make them safer: that's precisely the question in dispute.

[bluedeminredstate]

85. Even if it was full of killers

we've just made a shitload of martyrs. Not good. Bombing Mosques in this atmosphere in the state the Iraqis are in now is just another giant middle finger.
Winning the hearts and minds, my ass!

[Mari333]

86. bombing the mosque has put our soldiers in even more harms way

and it was again, another one of the many blunders of this administration. Bremer has mercenaries protecting him, Bush is on a fake pig ranch,
my kid is the one who will die because of these blunders.
so anyone who wants the soldiers protected, can immediatly call their senators and demand the troops be brought home NOW
NOW

[HootieMcBoob]

87. This shit has truly hit the fan now I'm afraid

It's gotten really out of control over there. I have a really bad feeling about this.

[Felix Mala]

93. Winning hearts and minds

building by building...

[leftchick]

96. Pentagon and WH officials mulling a response, not sure its true.... LINK

Not sure if is was struck by missiles or not....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&nci...


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is looking into a report that U.S. missiles hit a mosque in the restive Iraqi city of Falluja, killing about 40 people, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

"We've seen those reports and are looking into it," a senior Bush administration official said of The Associated Press report, which quoted witnesses in the city.

At the Pentagon (news - web sites), defense officials said they had received no report on such an attack. But one of the officials, who asked not to be identified, said insurgents in Falluja had used mosques in the area to fire on U.S.-led troops and that the troops had at times returned the fire.

[ima_sinnic]

99. yeah, "look into it," you slimy piece of human excrement

--just like you've "looked into" every other fraudulent stinking mess over the course of your illegitimate administration.

[ima_sinnic]

97. this war has been a fraud from one end to the other

--early on, it was merely covered up as "liberation" or whatever the raison du jour was; now they make no pretense that it is anything but outright savage slaughter of people rising up against the illegal, unwanted barbarian invaders.

[eurolefty]

98. So, no WMD's were ever found

But might as well murder liberate some ragheads while they are looking...

[lostnfound]

101. Yesterday, a poll (CNN? MSNBC? BBC?) re: whether raiding a holy site is ok

I was remembering it as being about whether bombing a mosque was ok; actually it might be this one that I was thinking of: about whether the U.S. should "raid a holy site to arrest Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr". I thought it was kind of an odd question, though.

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/10131.content.htm...
Created: Tuesday, April 06, 2004, at 14:01:23 EDT
Should the U.S. raid a holy site to arrest Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr?

Yes 65% 72698 votes

No 35% 38686 votes
Total: 111384 votes


This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein.

[leftchick]

103. MSRNC Saying Civilians were hiding in the Mosque!

[dai]

106. "Sorry about your mosque....

...why don't we build you Iraqis a nice church instead?"

[Layman]

107. They bomb houses of worship, don't they?

Like the freedom riders of old Dixie, like the gutless cowards that bombed Nergo churches in the Deep South, the United States goverment has shown it true colors today. Americans should hang their heads in shame and humilation for the crime that has been committed in our name. If there's a silver lining in this it's that our country now stands fully exposed to the world for what it is, a racist xenophobic psychotic killing machine. As an expat living overseas I thank my gov't for painting a target on my back. As a member of the human race I weep for all of us.

[Cooley Hurd]

108. Changed my mind

No link in thread...

Continue here until a better updated thread becomes available.

[maddezmom]

110. you're confusing me

but thanks for all your hardwork keeping the forum uncluttered.

edited for spelling

[Cooley Hurd]

112. You think you're confused?

I must be getting punchy (re: the premature lock & link)!

[gauguin57]

117. you've gotta read ...

... what the freepers are saying. Disgusting!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1113011/posts

My personal favorite Freeper quote on the subject:

"Make fertilizer out of the bones of these camel humpers and use it to grow food for pigs. Kill them all."

DISGUSTING! Freepers have no souls. They are the Dawn of the Dead. Gooper Zombies.

[Cooley Hurd]

120. More wisdom from the "Bring 'em on" crowd...

...as they sit safely at their computer desks.

Fucking loons!

[laruemtt]

119. we will be hit here - soon.

it's screaming in my head. if there were any lines left to cross that they hadn't already crossed, this was it. bombing a mosque - what are they using for brains??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bloom]

123. And Bush* says THEY have no values

What values does Bush* have? $$$$, revenge...


So the country doesn't want to be taken over - so we're going to kill them all.

[lumpy]

125. The final end of U.S. integrity and decency

occured at the Mosque bombing in Fallujah. People killed and mutilated while at worship. US troops have outdone the IDF. Unbelievable! "We wanted to kill the people inside," said Lt.Colonel Brenne Byrnesaid. Remember his name.

[maddezmom]

126. CNN's Barbara Star reporting "Marines dropped a 500lb Bomb on Wall"

never intended to hit the Mosque, just wanted to breech the wall so they could get to the insurgents. Whatever....how big is this wall and how close to the Mosque?

[daleo]

129. Just another "accident"

Sorry about that chief. We will try to be more careful, next mosque.

[maddezmom]

148. guess this guy didn't hear, they wanted to "breech the wall"

"We wanted to kill the people inside," said Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrnesaid

[TacticalPeek]

130. Whoops.

Sorry 'bout that.

Reconstruction budget will be adjusted.

[ima_sinnic]

131. oh, that's different then </sarcasm>

500 lb bombs ARE okay as long as they're not dropped directly on mosques

[maddezmom]

147. that was the message she was sending from the Pentagon

not sure anyone is going to buy it, I know I'm not. Like someone earlier said...this is a qWAGmire.

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

133. Pummel them into submission

that is the bush plan.

The bush doctrine: If your against us we will screw you!

If they don't agree then we will make them.

Everyone loves us can't you tell? Lol

[mbperrin]

134. Well, this

will surely help.

Right?

[Cooley Hurd]

151. Locking - please post in this thread with updated info:

Please continue the discussion here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Thanks!