In his final days, ex-Pentagon official was disheveled

[sabra]

Source: USA Today/Del. News Journal

NEWARK, Del. — John P. Wheeler III walked into the Happy Harry's pharmacy on Del. 9 in New Castle at 6 p.m. last Wednesday with an unusual request.

"He said, 'Can you give me a ride to Wilmington?' and that was a flag," said pharmacist Murali Gouro, who had filled prescriptions for the former Pentagon official in the past. "He looked like he was a little upset."

Gouro said he offered to call a cab, but Wheeler declined and left the store. "He looked a little different," Gouro said.

...

About 40 minutes after leaving the pharmacy, Wheeler turned up at the New Castle County Courthouse parking garage on King Street in Wilmington, erratically searching for his car, according to employees and surveillance video made public Tuesday.

Wheeler, 66, was blocks away from where his car was parked in a garage on MLK Boulevard near the train station. Wilmington Parking Authority officials said he was a monthly customer.

...

The Newark Police Department is the lead agency in an investigation that now involves the FBI. The Delaware Medical Examiner's office ruled Wheeler's death a homicide, but police have no suspects.

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-01-04-pentagon-official-dead-landfill_N.htm

[valerief]

1. And the cleanup crew is out in full force. Nothing to see here, folks.

He was crazy. It couldn't have been a hit. He was disheveled, you see. Move along.

[Frustratedlady]

2. ...or drugged. n/t

[molly77]

6. At least it wasn't called a suicide.

He knew about the mission nukes from Minot SC during the bush era. You know the ones that ended up in Louisiana? They have so many check lists for nuke safety, there was no way it could have happened without being sanctioned from the top. More than likely Air Force people blew the whistle. Lots of others with knowledge of that incident have died in car wrecks.

[jberryhill]

7. ...or taking Ambien, Lipitor...

...and other prescription drugs that can cause transient global amnesia.

Or he had a stroke of some kind.

Walking from Old New Castle to the Wilmington train station or the King Street parking lot is possible, but not something one would recommend.

[Frustratedlady]

44. Lipitor causes amnesia?

I take Lipitor.

[jberryhill]

48. It can, yes

Every drug has rare side effects in people who, for whatever reason, are susceptible to them.

http://www.spacedoc.net/lipitor_amnesia_medwatch.html

Note that one of the last people to see him alive was his pharmacist, who apparently saw him often enough to know who he was.

[Frustratedlady]

73. Thank you for that information. I did not know. I take 20mg per day.

I don't think I have those symptoms, but I am having to think of names of people I've known for years. That's nothing new...I can't recall names of people I just met.

I'm able to complete the crossword every morning, but then realized I don't have anyone checking my answers.

I also didn't know drug companies were conducting their own studies. Now THAT is really scary.

I will check with my cardiologist on Lipitor. Thank you very much.

[jberryhill]

75. The theory tends to be...

...that the incidence of harmful side effects is lower than the risk of the condition for which one is being treated.

The way that drugs are approved is by review of experimental data on safety and on effectiveness, provided by the drug manufacturers.

Given that a zillion people take Lipitor, and there are something like 408 reports of transient global amnesia associated with it, you might be more rationally worried about your safety in the car on the way to see the doctor. A lot more people die in car accidents.

[Frustratedlady]

79. I can hear my dr. saying the exact same thing.

Even so, I'll still ask about it. Might as well be on my record that I was concerned. He's pretty good about recording that info.

[defendandprotect]

70. How does the symptom of "amnesia" work from the drug ... suddenly?

Or little by little?

[jberryhill]

76. With Ambien - suddenly

I don't know the details of the reported amnesia cases with Lipitor.

People taking Ambien have turned up in all sorts of bizarre situations, though.

They are called Ambien Zombies.

[defendandprotect]

84. OK ... thank you ... but I think we have to add in that there seemed to be

an event of some kind where Wheeler's briefcase was stolen?

Therefore, we have to consider whether the first event is just coincidental

to his later being thrown into a dumpster and turning up in a land fill dead --

or whether both events were connected . . . ???

And are his right wing connections to government simply coincidental or connected

in some way to current events?

hmmm....

[jberryhill]

8. So are they making up the witnesses and video?

Or are you saying it shouldn't be reported?

Or did they have a double show up on surveillance videos and around town, acting that way on purpose to throw off the scent?

Out with it.

[Paul Muni]

15. Why is he limping?

See here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6fNVjIaJA&feature=player_detailpage

[jberryhill]

16. Because it is freezing and he is only wearing one shoe

That thing in his other hand is one of his shoes.

You can clearly see the shoe he is holding in the video, and witness said he was carrying one shoe.

He may also be injured, since it isn't clear how he got from the drugstore on Route 9 to the train station, and then another two blocks up to the lot on King Street.

If he walked, through Southbridge, then all kinds of things could have happened to him on the way.

But he does not appear to be dressed for cold weather.

It could also be that he walked with a limp for years. I had known of his legal battles with neighbors in New Castle, but I have no idea how he walked.

[woodsprite]

From the drugstore to the Wilm train station is about a 20 min drive on I-95.

I can't see him walking that far. If you cut through the neighborhoods and followed Rt 9 into Wilmington, I have no idea how long it would take you to walk that, but I'm thinking a lot longer than it would to drive. The New Castle city police department offices are only a 5 min walk from the drug store on the same road.

[jberryhill]

29. About 4.5 miles on 9 from there

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=happy+harry%27s&sll=39.675749,-75.572033&sspn=0.080463,0.113983&ie=UTF8&hq=happy+harry%27s&hnear=&ll=39.683808,-75.575809&spn=0.080453,0.179386&z=13

Maybe he got a ride from someone else.

Given his disorientation, though, it seems unlikely he'd navigate to the general vicinity of the train station properly.

One of the courthouse witnesses said he had dirt on his pantleg, so he had been out and about somewhere.

[jberryhill]

50. Btw, the News Journal screwed up the timeline

They say 40 minutes from the Happy Harry's to King Street on Wednesday.

And then later refer to the courthouse worker at King Street as having seen him Thursday.

Gotta love them News Journal copy editors.

[glinda]

17. He is confused and talking to him self. Boy oh boy. Drugged and murdered?

[jberryhill]

23. Drugged / Prescription reaction / head injury / stroke

There are a lot of possibilities. Oddly, there are narrow minded types who immediately jump to one thing, because they think they know everything.

He seems to have been really disoriented. If he was a regular customer at the WPA Amtrak lots, there's no way he'd have been thinking he parked at the King Street lot.

Then, he told others he was staying at a hotel nearby.

And this all started around 6PM when, at this time of year, it's already getting pretty dark.

[glinda]

37. Then is found murdered?

[jberryhill]

39. Yeah

You go wander into Southbridge acting weird some night and let me know how it turns out for you.

[defendandprotect]

51. Comments at the site are interesting .... Chemical/Biological weapons-fish/bird kills?

Don't forget this man was an expert in Chemical and Biological weapons. He was also a member of several administrations, and was a member of the CFR.

Also, note the timing of his death. Birds, fish, wildlife strangly dying in Beebe, AK.

What's the connection?

Beebe is just a few miles away from the Army Chemical Agent Disposal Unit in Pine Bluff, AK that deals with Chemical and Biological weapons.

Coincidence? Maybe. Worth looking into? I think so.

[Art_from_Ark]

113. Beebe, AR (not AK) is about 60 miles north of Pine Bluff

so it's more than just a "few miles away".

[avaistheone1]

114. It all could be a coinkydink,

but it could be more. Interesting coinkydink though.

[Art_from_Ark]

115. Well, the fish that died in the Arkansas River

were much farther away and upstream from Pine Bluff.

Considering that the birds died in a storm, were all the same species, and were 60 miles away from Pine Bluff, I would be very surprised if PB had anything at all to do with that.

[valerief]

40. Question everything. nt

[jberryhill]

47. Yes, it is called having an open mind

Unfortunately, some closed minds have this thing all figured out already.

So, I question the premise that they bought off a random pharmacist to make up a story.

[woodsprite]

21. I noticed that some of the more recent articles don't mention

the fact that his neighbors said that the TV was blaring day/night before xmas for a few days, which they said was odd. I went to look for the quote in an article this morning and couldn't find it. I had to go back to a previous article.

[peace13]

3. This pharmacist should be embarrassed to open his mouth.

He could have saved another human being instead well....It would have been just a little more trouble to make a call for the guy. You don't always ask a person who is acting strangely and appears to 'look a little different' what help he needs.

[jberryhill]

22. He offered to call a cab

...and Wheeler refused and left. As Wheeler was known to the pharmacist, the pharmacist would know that Wheeler is perfectly capable of paying for a cab.

That's in the article.

Are you saying that if the pharmacist sees someone acting unusual, then he should call an ambulance and have that person confined and evaluated against their will?

Or are you saying that the pharmacist should have called a cab anyway, and attempted to prevent Wheeler from leaving until the cab arrived.

What, specifically, should the pharmacist have done?

[No Elephants]

54. The man did not seem rational, so yes, a call to his prescriber or 911 would have been in order.

You do not have to agree with conspiracy theories to believe the pharmacist should have done better by a familiar customer and fellow human.

Are you saying that if the pharmacist sees someone acting unusual, then he should call an ambulance and have that person confined and evaluated against their will?

As you well know, a pharmacist has no say over whether or not someone is confined against his or her will. For that, 3 docs have to sign off. As far as getting evaluated against his will, people do not always give permission for an ambulance when they are in physical trouble, like being hit by a car or just passing out on the street. Anyway, no evidence the druggist even asked the guy about an ambulance.

Why is mental incapacity that might render the suffer a danger to himself or others any less of a reason to call 911 than someone looking pale and mplaining of chest pain, but only asking for water or aspirin, or nothing at all.

And, yes, if I were behaving irrationally and seemed unable to get home on my own in the snow, i would hope even a stranger would call 911, let alone a druggist who knew me. The druggist did not even call the presriber or the guys home, or offer to pay the cab. (Having a good salary does not mean you have $ on you at a given moment.)

I have to agree with Peace13: The pharmacist should be ashamed. He recognized that someone he knew was in trouble and did nothing but ask a question of someone who did not seem able to make a wise choice.

[jberryhill]

80. The pharmacist didn't say he appeared irrational

My first job was at a drugstore, and that would be about half the folks who came in the door.

The pharmacist would also likely know (but obviously can't discuss) what medications Wheeler was on. Presumably he had a few, since I doubt the people who fill my occasional prescriptions would know me if I bit them.

You are reading a lot that's not there in order to get "mental incapacity that might render the suffer a danger to himself or others" from what the pharmacist's description actually was.

As far as having money on him, Wheeler repeatedly told others that he had $120 on him and did not need money.

Unlike much of the surrounding area, New Castle County only got a light dusting of snow on the 26th, and there were no transportation issues on the 28th.

I remain amazed at the ability of people here to cast moral condemnation on others based on a two line newspaper quote. Are you that judgmental in real life?

Among the other things locally known about Mr. Wheeler, whose professional life I agree was exemplary, was that he was litigious as all get out. You can scroll back through the online archives of New Castle town meetings, where he raises questions about how many and what kind of trees his neighbors should be allowed to plant. His legal activities are legend around these parts, and is not the kind of guy you "help" if he says "don't help me".

My guess would be that the pharmacist knew more about Wheeler personally than anyone on this forum knows about either one of them.

[woodsprite]

26. I had read someone along the way offered to call him a cab

when he asked him for a ride. I thought it was the pharmacist.

[jberryhill]

28. It was...

Obviously the pharmacist was supposed to restrain him until the cab arrived.

[No Elephants]

57. Another straw man.

[jberryhill]

66. Okay, then what should the pharmacist have done?

The poster of the comment above stated that the pharmacist should be ashamed.

Can you explain what it is the pharmacist should have done when Wheeler asked him for a ride and declined the offer to call a cab?

I guess I'm just not up to scratch in the "moral condemnation of people I don't know department".

[defendandprotect]

71. If you were in Wheeler's condition, what would you have wanted the pharmacist to do for you?

[jberryhill]

74. Wheeler asked him for a ride, the pharmacist offered to call a cab

I wouldn't expect the pharmacist to leave his job to go off on a jaunt to Wilmington.

But if I'm in an off mood one day, I don't expect shopkeepers and others to intervene just because I strike them as a bit off.

If someone declines my offer to help them, as Wheeler did, I don't normally take them captive. If they are injured in some obvious way, I will call an ambulance. However, Wheeler had no apparent injury.

I just can't believe the poster above is jumping on the pharmacist while, like you, offering no suggestion of what one would have done in the same position.

[defendandprotect]

82. You didn't answer the question .... you are walking around in cold weather w/o a coat ....

carrying one shoe. You ask a pharmacist to drive you to Washington, DC.

Again -- what would YOU have wanted the pharmacist to do for you?

If you're indirectly saying, "nothing" -- fine. Just asking.


IMO, however, I doubt a pharmacist has ever heard a question like that before.

Unusual, at the least.

IMO, "do you want me to call you a cab?" was a sideways response instead of head on ....

"Are you having a problem of some kind?"


And who but YOU are suggesting this ... ???

I wouldn't expect the pharmacist to leave his job to go off on a jaunt to Wilmington.


But if I'm in an off mood one day, I don't expect shopkeepers and others to intervene just because I strike them as a bit off.

Think walking around w/o a coat on a frigid day with one shoe in your hand and looking confused

would have been sufficient for any police officer on the street to notice. Are there any

police on streets any longer?

If someone declines my offer to help them, as Wheeler did, I don't normally take them captive. If they are injured in some obvious way, I will call an ambulance. However, Wheeler had no apparent injury.

Not sure about that -- only YOU are suggesting taking anyone "captive" -- however I think if he

appeared dazed or confused -- along with his appearance w/o a coat, carrying a shoe -- then

again, different questions might have been asked.


Well . . .

I just can't believe the poster above is jumping on the pharmacist while, like you, offering no suggestion of what one would have done in the same position.

It's also difficult to believe many of the comments you make and we often say just that!

Think Wheeler's original question to pharmacist ... "Can you drive me to Washington, DC" should

have raised some concerns for the pharmacist. And, rather than taking it as a question re

transportation in general, the pharmacist might have looked at it from a higher perspective.

[jberryhill]

83. He was sans coat and shoe in Wilmington, not at New Castle

The pharmacy is five miles from the next place he was seen.

There is nothing about him not having a coat and holding a shoe when he was at the drugstore.

At this point, you are simply mixing facts in the D&P blender.

[defendandprotect]

85. Pharmacist suggests the question re a ride "was a flag" and that Wheeler looked "a little upset" --

And, also note that the pharmacist was familiar with Wheeler having filled prescriptions

for him on other occasions --

However, apologies and thank you --

I didn't read the original reports and will have to go back and look at them --

but still think that the original query to the pharmacist was unusual.


Follow up ...

In my first check of the info in this OP, we find this ....

New Castle at 6 p.m. last Wednesday with an unusual request.

"He said, 'Can you give me a ride to Wilmington?'

and that was a flag,"

said pharmacist Murali Gouro, who had

filled prescriptions for the former Pentagon official in the past.

"He looked like he was a little upset."

Gouro said he offered to call a cab, but Wheeler declined and left the store.

"He looked a little different,"

Gouro said.

[jberryhill]

86. He looked "a little upset"

Not goo goo eyed crazy, not a "danger to self or others", he looked "a little upset".

The requested ride was to Wilmington, not Washington as you posted upthread. Wilmington is about 4.5 miles from the drugstore in New Castle.

So if someone looks "a little upset" and asks you for a ride of a few miles, you are supposed to call the police and and ambulance.

Check.

[defendandprotect]

87. Pharmacist says query was "a flag" ... Wheeler looked a little "upset" and "different" ....

Sorry about the Wilmington/Washington mix up --

however the pharmacist says the query was "a flag" -- so I'll take his word for it!

[jberryhill]

88. Yeah, because the pharmacist NOW knows he is dead

What might have seen a "little upset" at this point is, yes, now more significant to point out with hindsight knowledge of what happened.

[defendandprotect]

91. No -- think anyone would say it was an unusual Q to a pharmacist....

There are a lot of possibilities in this case ...

was just reading that in 4 days surrounding Xmas there was activity at the

Wheeler residence in Delaware -- loud TV on constantly. Although the residents

did not seem to be home. We might also wonder why or if neighbors alerted

anyone on that? Seems the couple hadn't been at the house for months?

Also, that police had yellow-taped two wooden kitchen chairs and either they

removed some floorboards from kitchen or they are otherwise "missing."


It could also be as simple as a mugging -- something that caused some internal

problem or head trauma for Wheeler and that he was at some location where there

was a dumpster and being cold he entered it and died?

But, the report above also suggests that Wheeler may have made it home and the

loud TV used to hide a crime?


Also note the constant pushing of "nice guy" -- though I don't know that I'd call

W Bush fans and Reagan fans nice guys, generally. PLUS, Wheeler had security

clearances that put him in inner ring of Pentagon. And the Mitre connections ... ???

[jberryhill]

92. The dumpster, in Newark, is ten miles away

The missing floorboards were seen through a window by a reporter after the police investigation. One guess there would be that the police removed them for analysis of a substance or stain on the floor of some kind.

[defendandprotect]

96. Police do not yet know which location the dumpster came from ....

was it near the DuPont building where he was wandering around?

Might he have crawled into it to keep warm?

No one is certain that Wheeler ever made it home -- so certainly no one

is suggesting either that he navigaged 10 miles to the dumpster you're citing.

Evidently, some new questions being raised re the "neighbor situation" --

man seen running from the building by neighbors after the smoke bombs were lit.

Medical examiners have not released "cause of death" -- pending further studies

including "toxicology analysis."

Seems there was no wallet on his body when found -- though it could have fallen

out somewhere/? -- and that he was ID'd by particular items they found on his body.

Looks also like he was another Pentagon religious Fundi - "reading Bible, theology --

and liked military events" -- !!

[jberryhill]

97. They don't know the specific dumpster, but they knew it was from Newark

The body was seen by a hazardous items spotter when the garbage truck unloaded.

The truck came from a trash pickup route in Newark, not Wilmington. Newark and Wilmington are on opposite sides of the county.

Specifically the truck came from the College Square Shopping Center in Newark, which is a decent sized strip mall shopping center with quite a few dumpsters (that, on the 30th, would include all of the post-holiday shopping trash).

So they know which set of dumpsters it came from. They have not published whether they know the specific dumpster.

There are no dumpsters outside of the Nemours building. Like other large office buildings, trash is hauled out of a service container via a basement ramp at the underground loading dock.

Exterior views of the Nemours Building are here:

http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&lng=3&id=130552

The Nemours Building is directly adjacent to the DuPont Hotel. While the News Journal states coyly that he said to some witnesses he was staying at "an old hotel nearby", there is only one old hotel in central Wilmington.

[defendandprotect]

99. Well ...

don't think it likely he was doing some last minute holiday shopping ....

[jberryhill]

100. No shit

...which suggests he was picked up by a "Good Samaritan" who had other plans in mind. Given his state of mind, he was a walking target.

Alternatively, he was picked up in Wilmington and dropped off in Newark, and met his demise by exposure or some other means.

That said, it wasn't terrifically cold on New Years Eve in New Castle County. Again, the severe weather that hit a lot of the East Coast just missed us.

I would guess they are interested in the surveillance cams from the PathMark, since it is the only 24 hour grocery store in the immediate area of that shopping center.

[defendandprotect]

102. Interesting that video may track him all the way to the dumpster ... !!

Still a lot of questions on whether he actually made it home or not --

and what medical reports will eventually say --

We have the weekend coming up on this one so may be fewer updates --

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elleng]

5. Beau Biden Delaware AG.

Lets see.

[fatbuckel]

9. Or he knew too much and received a dose. I would like to see toxicology tests. Could implicate more

[closeupready]

10. What would be the motive for murdering him?

I'm not getting that part of this theory.

[Imajika]

11. There is no "that part of the theory"...

You always get the conspiracy theorist types that jump on these threads with half baked accusations against "Bushco", "the Empire" or "the Banksters". They don't need evidence to spread a good conspiracy yarn.

It sort of reminds me of the middle east where in countries like Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan many people literally blame EVERY ill and EVERY bad thing that happens on Israel. They've turned Israel into this mythical almost God like powerhouse with the might to inflict even the common cold, dry up crops, cause a flash flood, etc, etc.

It is possible this guy was assassinated, but there is absolutely no reason to jump to such conclusions without plenty of evidence first. It is more likely he took some dangerous combination of prescription drugs, or had a stroke, etc, etc.

[closeupready]

12. Thank you, lol. What seems obvious is that the prior administration is immunized from

prosecution for war crimes (effectively), and no Republican administration is even going to think about doing it, so therefore, there are no real 'secrets' anyone can have that can be of any consequence. Therefore, even if we assume that he DID know something, assassinating him would have been entirely pointless. Thus, no motive. Cheers. :hi:

[Imajika]

24. Yup, pretty much...

For the most part, even our formerly massive Democratic House Majority, Senate and our Democratic President (who won with a rather large mandate) don't see any crimes having occurred under the Bush administration. With that in mind, there is very little reason for "Bushco", "the Empire" or anyone else to even bother with covering anything up.

[Octafish]

13. There's always a perfectly plausibly deniable story with some people, huh?

"Bushco", "the Empire" or "the Banksters" don't need any help. They've earned their reputations.

Know your BFEE: Money Trumps Peace. Always.

[AngryAmish]

14. It was M.A.D.D.

He knew too much.

[glinda]

18. Yes indeed. How convenient timing with the Repub takeover.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. If I may

Why off him when the GOP takes the HoR? If he was a threat he could have gone to the "opposition party" while they held the gavel.

There are an awful lot of people who would know what this guy knows. That would be a pretty big hit list. You'd think Julian Assange would turn up dead before this guy.

Heck, none of us knew who he was until he turned up dead and we subsequently learned he was a republican insider. Was he talking to a reporter or an IG or an AG?

And why drug him and then murder him? Once you have him drugged you can make him OD or take a nap on the railroad tracks or drive into a phone pole. It seems it only makes sense to drug someone to cover a crime, not make it more explicit by having them wander around on camera then wrnagle them off camera somehow and then blatantly murder them by violent means.

Sounds kinda convoluted.

[AngryAmish]

20. THat is what they want you to think

[jberryhill]

25. LOL, I was going to say the same thing

There are a million dungeon threads like that.

"It looks like a controlled demolition - inside job!"

"It really doesn't look much like a controlled demolition."

"There, you see, they tried to make it not look like controlled demolition - inside job!"

[glinda]

36. Maybe he was poisoned and didn't die. Or drugged in hopes he would OD.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

42. So in other words the theory will morph to accomodate the conclusion

It would seem contradictory that such a hyper-powerful shadow cabal couldn't just keep re-drugging him.

[jberryhill]

49. The less it looks like an assassination

Then the greater probability it was an assassination.

Of course, if it looks like an assassination, then it probably is one.

But if it doesn't look like an assassination, it DEFINITELY is one.

[defendandprotect]

52. Presuming this was an attack, not all crimes are "perfect" -- that's why we have cover ups....

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[closeupready]

31. OMG!

:rofl: Hilarious.

[jberryhill]

32. LOL

I love how these guys are always killed just in the nick of time before they spill all of the beans.

Googling the words phosgene iraq and arkansas is pretty instructive in how this stuff gets packaged and pumped out.

[tabasco]

43. Yeah, stuff like that only happens in movies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson

[jberryhill]

46. Quality citations in that one

Yes, everyone knows that LSD makes people compulsively jump out of windows.

[tabasco]

60. Do you think Frank Olson committed suicide? n/t

[jberryhill]

64. No

But perhaps you might explain the connection to John Wheeler you are attempting to make.

If you are willing to believe that Wheeler was left in a daze for two days because he was upset over the release of seized Iraqi nerve gas killing birds in Arkansas, then can I call you when I have some hot investment tips?

I have no idea how John Wheeler died. I am amused by people who are certain they do know, and suggest that others are closed minded for not agreeing with them.

[defendandprotect]

68. Obviously, whatever Wheeler was involved with -- from Pentagon to CFR, it is corrupt ....

which is being pointed out --

What we are questioning is whether his turning up in a dumpster in a land fill

had anything to do with that dark profession.

Evidently, he was now doing "consulting" work -- so maybe he was selling

potty-training seats?

And, I see no posts here expressing "certainty" about Wheeler's death --

we are all asking questions re his government/Pentagon/biological career --

and rightly so!

[tabasco]

61. Yeah, Democracy Now is pretty shady, isn't it?

That Baltimore Sun is just pulp, isn't it?

[defendandprotect]

67. This was the whole MK ULTRA program .. an adventure in our government/CIA's own insanity ...

This was the MKNAOMI - MKULTRA program, previously known as Project Artichoke and earlier, Project Bluebird, and justified based on claimed Soviet efforts to create a "Manchurian Candidate."

And who actually turned up with the Manchurian candidates?

Sirhan, Sirhan --

on and on --

The CIA should be put out of business -- and all Americans should understand its vile

and fascist origins and influences.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[formercia]

89. Dead men tell no tales.

Book closed.

My question is: What was under the ripped-up floorboards? Perhaps he had a stash of documents and the drugs were to get him to tell where they were, then kill him. That didn't work, so the boys had to go back and finish the job with prejudice.

He knew too much.

[closeupready]

94. Oh please - you are such a wild and crazy guy, lol.

:D

[formercia]

106. Hey, it's a good theory as any.

IMHO

[bemildred]

30. Many of us become disheveled in our final days. nt

[woodsprite]

33. I'm disheveled now! OMG!!! n/t

[bemildred]

34. Happens to me all the time. nt

[jberryhill]

35. I stay sheveled most of the time

And when I furbish things, they don't need to be furbished again.

[No Elephants]

55. Quick, for tihe sake of your loved ones, SPRUCE UP!

[Octafish]

38. Not many of the disheveled are murdered, however.

Fewer still are the disheveled murdered who also were former high-ranking officers of the national security state.

[jberryhill]

41. "homeless man murdered" - 122,000 hits on Google

Never happens.

[No Elephants]

56. And the number of Google hits proves what? That the words homeless,

man and murdered appear, alone or together, many times on the Internet? Does not prove a thing about how many disheveled people are murdered,compared with non-disheveled folk.

Anyway, this was presumably a well-dressed, affluent looking man who appeared disheveled and was behaving oddly, not a homeless person. Different considerations apply that would affect the statisticz, one way or the other.

[jberryhill]

65. Learn the Google

Searching with quotes finds the phrase.

No coat in winter, dirt on sleeves and pants, and one shoe isn't normally what I consider "well dressed", but I understand sartorial preferences may be regional.

I have seen many well dressed homeless persons.

However, since city streets were turned into outdoor mental facilities in the Reagan administration, people have a tendency to avoid folks acting strangely in public. In this instance, however, several persons offered assistance to Mr. Wheeler who declined it.

[bemildred]

45. I think murder makes people disheveled too.

How many murdered people are not also disheveled?

[No Elephants]

58. Sure, but this is a story about a man who was disheveled while alive.

[defendandprotect]

69. ... but your family would know that and try to protect you ... at least I presume

if you were walking around in cold weather w/o a coat -- and

carrying one shoe and limping -- your family would care?

[jberryhill]

77. His wife was at their home in NY, He was at their home in DE

Kinda odd that he was wandering around for a couple of days, and she didn't notice, but couples with complicated differ in their need for frequent contact.

[defendandprotect]

98. She was said to be "traveling" -- and she did have business in NY - Silk from Cambodia...

She was his third wife -- children? They also had a residence in Washington, DC.

Presume telephone records will reveal if there had been any calls between them.

Also, there seems to have been a rather public romance between Wheeler and Ray Kroc's

daughter in 1980's -- that's the McDonald's guy.

[defendandprotect]

53. Did Wheeler have any family looking for him in these last three days?

Or was he simply "out of town" to the family and they had no idea?

Anyone know if there has been any mention of family concern?

[pinboy3niner]

62. His wife was reportedly in New York

Wheeler's wife, Katherine Klyce, hasn't spoken publicly about the case. Police say she was not in Delaware last week. But she was seen at a New York City condominium building where the couple own a unit, the superintendent has said. Police have talked to Klyce since her husband's body was found.

Wheeler's family issued a short statement Monday: "As you must appreciate, this is a tragic time for the family. We are grieving our loss. Please understand that the family has no further comment at this time. We trust that everyone will respect the family's privacy."

Several of Wheeler's friends, citing the family's statement, have declined to comment on whether he suffered from some malady that would account for his odd behavior.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-federal-official-landfill,0,4744231.story

[defendandprotect]

63. Thank you ... imo, if he were suffering from some "malady" his family would know ....

so think we have to rule that out?

And presume he was still actively working?

I doubt that someone who is a member of the CFR would be seen on a frigid day

w/o a coat and carrying one shoe?

And also presuming he had ID with him but don't really know -- enough I'm sure

to get a cab back to his home in NYC?

Looks more like some event caught him unawares and created his confusing state of

mind in his last time on earth. But, obviously he didn't throw himself into a dumpster!

As I often say, capitalism is suicidal -- but I would add that many who make

pacts with the Devil will often find then can't continue on with it.

Have no idea what happened to this man but since the death of animal-life and

concerns about toxic substances polluting our environment are also prominent

subjects right now -- and Wheeler was involved with Chemical/biological issues --

thoughts of a connection can't be avoided, imo.


:) Thanks for the info --

[pinboy3niner]

72. Jack Wheeler was a highly principled, ethical man

He wasn't someone who would make a pact with the devil. In fact, even the conspiracy/assassination theories envision him as a whistleblower against government corruption.

His expertise in chemical and bioweapons was as a lawyer, manager and policy analyst, not as a scientist, and that was much earlier in his past, when he worked to develop support for the U.S. policy rejecting use of such weapons. His more recent interest was in cyberwarfare.

He was working as a part-time consultant to Mitre, and their statement doesn't say much about what he did for them other than to portray him as a facilitator in bringing people together. That's an avenue for investigation, but the fact that DoD didn't bring in the FBI immediately suggests to me that classified government programs are not at issue.

It's possible that he had some physical/medical episode prior to his train trip, or that a subsequent head injury, possibly if he was jumped in an attempted robbery (when his briefcase was stolen as he reported to one witness) caused his disorientation. Or he may have had a stroke or some other disorienting episode at any point on the timeline.

But Jack Wheeler was never some kind of neocon monster. He did a lot of good work for Vietnam veterans and for subsequent generations of veterans, for deaf children, and for groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, where he served as its first Chairman and as CEO.

Many of his friends are following the family's lead and not saying much at the moment, but what James Fallows at The Atlantic has to say about the kind of man Jack was is instructive. Just google "John P. Wheeler III" to find Fallows' comments.

I agree that all avenues of investigation should be pursued aggressively. And the bastards who killed Jack Wheeler--whoever they are--should be hounded down and brought to justice.

:hi:

Edited to add: I absolutely agree with you that the people who encountered him and saw his appearance and disorientation should have called 911. At least to get the police there, if not paramedics, to evaluate the situation and determine if he needed help. If only one of those people had made a call, this tragedy might have been avoided.

[defendandprotect]

81. I'd rarely think of anyone with connections to the Pentagon ....

or CFR as someone "principled or ethical" -- and I think who this man was and what

interests he was acting for is something for all of us decide on our own --

But wonder, "pinboy" ... do you have some personal connections to Jack Wheeler or his family?

And I would add that that those questioning some kind of whistleblowing connection are

being prompted, imo, by the simultaneous events of the deaths of birds, fish, crabs, etal.

Though originally there was already high interest in his being thrown into a dumpster when

his connections to Repugs/Pentagon was made known.


His expertise in chemical and bioweapons was as a lawyer, manager and policy analyst, not as a scientist, and that was much earlier in his past, when he worked to develop support for the U.S. policy rejecting use of such weapons. His more recent interest was in cyberwarfare.

Our positions shunning biological weapons -- at least publickly -- seem to have shifted to

questionable and secret acceptance at this point -- at least, by US!

Mitre Corporation would also raise suspicions --

Cyberwarfare ...

Cyberwarfare has been defined by government security expert Richard A. Clarke, in his book Cyber War (May 2010), as "actions by a nation-state to penetrate another nation's computers or networks for the purposes of causing damage or disruption."<1>:6 The Economist describes cyber warfare as "the fifth domain of warfare,"<2> and William J. Lynn, U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense, states that "as a doctrinal matter, the Pentagon has formally recognized cyberspace as a new domain in warfare . . . has become just as critical to military operations as land, sea, air, and space."<3>

Again, the constant conversion by right wing of everything into a threat, a weapon, warfare.


It is possible that Wheeler had some health episode which left him incompetent --

but would be tough to envision an "attempted robbery" of his briefcase and then MUCH LATER

his being thrown into a dumpster ... without guessing that the two events would be connected!

[pinboy3niner]

90. Yes, I did have a brief acquaintance with Jack...

many years ago. He was a very decent man, and one of his most important interests, to him, was ethics in public service.

It is really beneath you to suggest that no one connected with the Pentagon can be principled or ethical. That is ridiculous on its face.

You may view working in cyberwarfare--which includes defense against attacks--as something heinous. I don't.

The investigation into Wheeler's death is ongoing, and we don't have very much information yet. To glom onto the kneejerk assassination/conspiracy theories is a big mistake.

[defendandprotect]

93. Unfortunately, I'd have a very LOW opinion of anyone working in upper echelon of Pentagon ....

and Wheeler had security clearances which connected him to inner ring of Pentagon.

It is really beneath you to suggest that no one connected with the Pentagon can be principled or ethical. That is ridiculous on its face.

Let's just put it this way -- I have an anti-military bias -- you have a bias for a

one-time friend?


You may view working in cyberwarfare--which includes defense against attacks--as something heinous. I don't.

This is Mitre Corporation -- get serious!

The investigation into Wheeler's death is ongoing, and we don't have very much information yet. To glom onto the kneejerk assassination/conspiracy theories is a big mistake.

No one is "glomming onto anything" -- it could be as simple as a mugging which took his

briefcase, but left him with $$$ -- and some injury from that disorienting him -- perhaps

a concussion -- and eventually, seeking shelter he crawled into a dumpster and died?


The FBI has been called in, evidently.

Some odd things in a report that there was some activity at the Delaware home in the 4 days

surrounding Xmas -- with a TV playing loudly - constantly. However, did not appear that the

residents were there.

Evidently, there is some thought that Wheeler may have made it home eventually to the residence?

Police taped off two wooden kitchen chairs -- and seemed to have removed several floor boards

from kitchen? Was Wheeler held hostage in his kitchen -- and the TV used to cover a crime?



Wife was also said to be travelling -- they had residences in NYC and DC, as well -- she had

a business in NYC - Silk from Indonesia. She did not file a missing persons report.

Yet to hear whether there had been telephone contact between them. Third wife -- presume

no children from any of the marriages?

Also looks like he was a bit of a religous Fundie?


But there is more confirmation -- even from a security guard -- that he was "wandering around"

and had been reported to this guard as "homeless" by the parking lot attendant.

And eyes were red -- "as if crying." Told the security guard he had been "robbed" --

and yet seems to be no real repsonse to that by the guard?

Others say he was "disoriented and rambling" . . . "about brother, mother and Hertz rental car."

[pinboy3niner]

101. Wheeler was considered a mid-level appointee

You don't have to be 'inner ring' to have a high security clearance. Even the most junior officers in the military have a 'secret' clearance.

Working for Mitre doesn't automatically make someone evil. It takes more than that to assassinate someone's character. Like, facts.

The last report I saw was that the FBI was assisting local law enforcement--not conducting its own investigation. The suggestion in the reports was that that kind of description usually means that the FBI is providing forensics support.

Your assumption about children is wrong. Jack had two children from his first marriage. In fact, he wrote about his daughter in his book.

[defendandprotect]

103. Reports on his specific security clearance say they equal "inner ring of Pentagon" --

Mitre and Pentagon connections . . . 9/11?

Also, looks like he was not only a right winger but something of a religious

fanatic -- Fundie? Fond of reading Bible, theology -- liked military events" --

Fallows has said he was a "complex man" -- "intense and sometimes changeable in

is friendships, passions, causes."

Surprising that people seem to be saying that the couple hadn't been at the house

in Delaware for 7 months, if I read that correctly? Yet, he kept up an expensive

2 1/2 year lawsuit vs neighbor's new house which would block his view of Delaware River?

Presumably, not anything personal, but based on resale value?

Also, while religious -- this was his third wife -- any children?

And then there was the public romance with Ray Kroc's daugther - McDonald's -- in 1980's?


And, btw, from what I'm reading ... he was robbed of his briefcase -- but seems to have

$$ on him which he tells people offering him money. How many thieves take only your

briefcase?

Wonder when he lost his tie?

[pinboy3niner]

104. LOL! Jack was never a 'Fundie"

He had an interest in theological issues, and even wrote about them. But no one--until your post--has ever suggested that he was a "Fundie."

In case you missed it, he had two children, a son and a daughter. Though how that's relevant to his death, I haven't a clue. Nor do I see how the Kroc connection is relevant.

He clearly was disoriented, but aware that his briefcase had been stolen. His saying that he had money is something I'd be less likely to believe. In his state of mind, he might have thought he had money, even if he'd alreadybeen robbed. Whether or not he had money on him is a detail the police have not yet released.

I don't understand why his tie is important. He could have lost it in an altercation. So what?

[defendandprotect]

110. Thanks --

Asked about children because that would be two more people he might have had

contact with during that time -- and two more people who would have had concern

for him -- and especially with the holiday msgs that usually increase at that time??

Therefore, two more people who might have been looking for him and wondering re his

whereabouts?


Re religion, it was noted that he liked to read the Bible -- and knowing the "Christian"

bent at the Pentagon -- you do remember Rumsfeld's religious references in his messages,

though I don't think of Rumsfeld as a "Christian" by any means -- thought perhaps he

could be another religious fanatic. Not like they weren't prevalent in Reagan and W Bush

administrations -- people who claimed to be "Christians" and liked Crusades!

Think you're right that after the trauma of a robbery, he might have been too disoriented

to realize his wallet was also taken, if it was?

The tie is only incidental -- happened to notice it was missing -- but could point to

his having had a struggle with someone.

In his writings on theology, what was his outlook?



PS: Re the "public romance" with the Kroc daughter -- and I'm unaware as to why they

referred to it in that way -- seemed a bit public for someone who liked to read the

Bible and who enjoyed military events?

[jberryhill]

78. Do you suppose he knew the details of the chemtrail program?

He was head of the Air Force at one point.

So, would you suspect he had involvement in the chemtrail program and the moon landing fakery?

[defendandprotect]

95. "Chemtrail program" ... ???

The Chemtrail program is international -- been going on for between 15-20 years

and presume many nations know the details because they're being carried out everywhere.

So, don't think that would be exclusive to Wheeler. Are you saying that the Chemtrail

program may finally be poisoning birds in the air and fish in the sea?

Certainly this stuff does fall from the skies eventually -- so who knows?


You think Wheeler was involved in "Moon landing fakery?" --

I'd be more inclined to speculate on a connection between Mitre and Pentagon re 9/11.

But, if you can connect him to faked moon landing -- go for it!!



:eyes:

[sharpeink]

111. Pentagon Death

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Terms of Use. For more information, please email
[email protected].

CVE is co-sponsored by the National Cyber Security Division of
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The MITRE Corporation to enable stakeholder collaboration.
  
this is to your response "Chemtrail program"

[eowyn_of_rohan]

59. The Man Who Knew Too Much

mayhaps...

[pinboy3niner]

105. Yes! He knew the ending of 'My Pet Goat'!

:rofl:

[yellowcanine]

107. Sounds as if maybe he was wandering around in a confused state and someone just decided to kill him.

Very sad. Hard to believe that there are people that heartless but unfortunately there are.

Hopefully the investigations will bring out the truth of it but the chances seem slim.

[Xithras]

108. I wonder if he stroked.

Something similar happened to one of my grandfathers friends. He was perfectly normal one day, and the next day he was spotted by a neighbor wandering around the block with no shoes. The neighbor guided him back inside his home and called his daughter, but by the time she arrived, he'd hopped in his car and vanished for three days. The police found him in San Francisco (about 50 miles away), sleeping in an alley without his car. They assumed it was stolen, but later found it in the possession of a young woman who SWORE that he'd given it to her with the comment, "I don't need this anymore."

The doctors later determined that he'd suffered a minor stroke, which had instantly put him into a state of near-dementia. The damage was permanent, and he spent the rest of his life in a care home.

[lovuian]

109. I see he JUMPED into the Landfill

What a bunch a crap