Bradley Manning Speaks About His Conditions

[sabra]

Source: FDL - David House

Bradley Manning, the 23-year-old Army private accused of leaking classified information to Wikileaks, has been held in the brig at Quantico Marine Corp Base for five months in inhumane conditions, with severe restrictions on his ability to exercise, communicate, or even sleep. Manning has not been convicted of any crime. Nor is there a date certain for any court hearing.

The conditions of Bradley Manning’s confinement became a top issue in the press last week as bloggers traded blows with US officials over allegations that Manning endures inhumane treatment at the Quantico, VA detainment facility. In the midst of this rush by the Defense Department to contextualize Manning’s confinement, I traveled to see the man himself at the Marine Corps detainment facility in Quantico, VA.

In my visit to see Bradley at the Quantico brig, it became clear that the Pentagon’s public spin from last week sharply contradicts the reality of Bradley Manning’s detainment. In his five months of detention, it has become obvious to me that Manning’s physical and mental well-being are deteriorating. What Manning needs, and what his attorney has already urged, is to have the unnecessary “Prevention of Injury” order lifted that severely restricts his ability to exercise, communicate, and sleep.

...

I am one of the few people allowed to visit Bradley Manning while he is detained in the Quantico brig.

Manning is held in “maximum custody,” the military’s most severe detention policy. Manning is also confined under a longstanding Prevention of Injury (POI) order which limits his social contact, news consumption, ability to exercise, and that places restrictions on his ability to sleep.

Manning has been living under the solitary restrictions of POI for five months despite being cleared by a military psychologist earlier this year, and despite repeated calls from his attorney David Coombs to lift the severely restrictive and isolating order. POI orders are short-term restrictions that are typically implemented when a detainee changes confinement facilities and these orders are lifted after the detainee passes psychological evaluation.

Read more: http://my.firedoglake.com/blog/2010/12/23/bradley-manning-speaks-about-his-conditions/

[eleny]

1. K&R

Wow, I'm surprised someone would unrec this information.

[saigon68]

184. Lots of DLC types

Trying to shield the "Present Occupant"

[ColesCountyDem]

187. What is a 'DLC type', please? n/t

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ruperto31]

192. A proponent of the "Third Way."

Now I suppose you want to know what that is.

[ColesCountyDem]

193. No, I'm well aware of what the Third Way is.

I just don't find stereotypical dismissal of any group of Democrats to be respectful. 'DLC type' is no more respectful than is 'the loony left'....

[Smarmie Doofus]

189. I'm not.

I'm repelled, but not surprised.

[BeFree]

2. Eh?

Does one lose all their rights just because they enlist?

Well, they just now got rid of DADT, eh?

I hope they show Manning some respect. To some of us he is a true Patriot.

[EFerrari]

3. They're not showing him any respect.

He's in abusive conditions. The UN is now officially investigating.

[lunasun]

33. and I am glad the UN is involved now.

[Ruperto31]

76. It's worse than that. They are trying to drive him crazy.

Similar techniques, though much more severe, have been used at Gitmo.

Sensory deprivation, isolation, sleep disturbance, severe restrictions on movement, etc. are designed to destroy the subject's autonomy, and thereby gain his compliance.

Such techniques do not always achieve the desired end. Sometimes they just induce psychosis.

[EFerrari]

106. Agreed. n/t

[thanks_imjustlurking]

120. Exactly. nt

[molly77]

169. Bradley Manning would not be in this position in a free society.

This is not a democratic free govt. Our govt. is totalitarian and mean.Obama said he would close Gitmo. He should not even have to be in that position. Same for Bradley Manning. We are being spied upon groped watched and recorded constantly. Why are WE as a country afraid of the F word . FASCIST

[molly77]

130. Remember in 2000 when it was said it would be too disruptive to the

country to count all the votes in Fl.? I'm thinking of how far we have fallen with 2 bush terms and now another clinton administration.

Maybe I am not off topic except in my own mind. but the UN investigating the way we are holding a political prisoner seems Nazi to me.

[EFerrari]

142. Especially since the UN has no powers of enforcement. n/t

[OregonBlue]

4. Does one lose their rights when they enlist? Yes. He is subject to military law. I don't know what

he thought was going to happen.

[BeFree]

6. Ah

When you sign up to protect the rights of Americans, you must give up some of your own?

It's a trade off? A compromise?

[defendandprotect]

8. If soldiers had any rights, they'd soon be leaving the battle fields...!!

[ProudDad]

44. Now THAT sounds like a GREAT IDEA!

Let's make that a worldwide movement...

"they'd soon be leaving the battle fields...!!"

DAMN GOOD IDEA!

[OregonBlue]

10. When you reveal classified information while in the military, you are going to be arrested. He

broke the law. My only point is, what did he think was going to happen? I think he's been used very badly.

[BeFree]

13. Indeed. What did he think?

He probably thought:

"My Gawd, the government has been lying and breaking laws. I, as a soldier who has pledged to fight enemies at home and abroad, must fight back."

[OregonBlue]

18. Again, he's in the military, he revealed classified information, what did he think was going to

happen? Was he really that naive? Who talked him into doing this and why? I think there are lots of unanswered questions.

[BeFree]

23. So

You think he should be treated sub-human like? Is waterboarding next ok by you?

[OregonBlue]

24. Don't try to hang that on me. All I said was what did he expect? He's in the military. He revealed

classified information. What did he think would happen? I can't believe how many people here are saying they can't believe what's happening to him. I certainly don't want him tortured but I'm not surprised. I also don't necessarily approve of what he did. I don't necessarily disapprove of what he did. I just think that if he believes so strongly in what he did, he should have been prepared to live with the consequences.

From what I've read, he is prepared and is NOT complaining.

[treestar]

26. It sounds like the military policy that normally applies is in effect

I don't know why those who support what he did think he needs an extra layer of sympathy. Just like with Julian, these two heroes wouldn't be heroes if they didn't have to pay the price. And Julian's legal issues have nothing to do with the leaks.

[OregonBlue]

29. Agreed. I certainly don't wish to see this young mom tortured or abused. I am a mother of one boy

and a grandmother of two more but, he is 23 years old. He was in the military and he violated the law. He doesn't seem to be the one who is surprised or complaining. I assume he knew what he was doing and decided he was willing to pay the price. I just hope he wasn't conned into it by other glory mongers.

[coalition_unwilling]

60. You apparently think he's guilty until he proves his innocence. HE

HAS NOT BEEN CONVICTED OR EVEN TRIED. The military is torturing him while in captivity to try to break him.

[shanti2]

64. When one enlists you know that there are multiple

regulations that you MUST follow or there will be consequences. This is one of those consequences. You do not know that he is being tortured..you are all just making the allegation. Being confined in a room for hours on end is not torture. Everyone seems to think that ordinary rules and laws pertain when you go into the military- they don't. The only thing that pertains is military regulations and there are books and books of them and since he is a Marine..the Marine Corps regulations pertaining to military prisoners. It is not up to me to know if he should be there or not...but IF he did get classified documents out..he had help and he is NEVER getting out of Federal prison. I spent 8 years in the Army,some of it at West Point so I clearly know the military and the military mindset. Petitions are not going to help him..and could make more pressure on the Marines to NOT be lenient.

[Swagman]

69. so you are saying that the military CAN be vindictive

[truth2power]

91. "Being confined in a room for hours on end is not torture." You are trying

to minimize it. As if he's sitting in a rather small hotel room for a day or two.

If reports are correct he IS being tortured. Solitary is about being confined in a room for weeks, months, years, with absolutely no stimulation; nothing to do; no human contact. Under those conditions people begin to hallucinate and dissociate. Eventually they go mad. Yes, it IS torture.

Dogs, cats, and even pet birds need some sort of what they call "enrichment" - toys, and contact with humans or others of their species. Shove a dog into a bare room for months, and throw some food under the door every day. See what happens. Do you really not understand this?

I remember Dubya, the psychopath, smirking and giggling and saying there wouldn't be any more torture rooms like Saadam had. What a joke! New boss, same as the old boss....

Oh, and Manning hasn't been convicted of anything yet. What was that thing about "due process" again? I guess it got flushed down the toilet with the rest of the Constitution. x(

[defendandprotect]

147. Exactly ,.,, wasn't it the Stockholm studies which made this clear ... but someone

here the other day posted a terrific response to this kind of insensitive

comment --

he suggested that the other poster lock himself in his bathroom for three days

with one magazine and see how he feels after that.

[truth2power]

172. Yes, and Manning doesn't even get anything to read...

It's cruel and inhumane.

And (excuse the caps, but many on this so-called progressive board don't seem to get this)...

MANNING HASN'T BEEN TRIED AND CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME.

Don't anyone tell me about Saddam's torture rooms.

[msanthrope]

182. According to Manning's own lawyer, you are incorrect.

He is allowed to watch television during the day. The television stations are limited to the basic local stations. His access to the television ranges from 1 to 3 hours on weekdays to 3 to 6 hours on weekends.

SNIP

From 7:00 p.m. to 9:20 p.m., he is given correspondence time. He is given access to a pen and paper. He is allowed to write letters to family, friends, and his attorneys.
SNIP

He is allowed to receive letters from those on his approved list and from his legal counsel. If he receives a letter from someone not on his approved list, he must sign a rejection form. The letter is then either returned to the sender or destroyed.

He is allowed to have any combination of up to 15 books or magazines. He must request the book or magazine by name. Once the book or magazine has been reviewed by the literary board at the confinement facility, and approved, he is allowed to have someone on his approved list send it to him. The person sending the book or magazine to him must do so through a publisher or an approved distributor such as Amazon. They are not allowed to mail the book or magazine directly to PFC Manning.


http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2010/12/typical-day-for-pfc-bradley-manning.html

[Oilwellian]

162. I'm going to drop a name here

Daniel Ellsburg.

[defendandprotect]

195. Military law still prohibits torture ... Isolation is torture .... as studies have shown....

What you lose when you enter the military is the right to your own conscience and

self-direction --

This is the most brutal and cruel army we have ever raised --

And certainly perpetual war is 1000% further closer than the danger our founders

recognized in a standing army.

Again, Manning has not been given a trial -- evidence has not been submitted --

he is free, however, to walk around his cell IN CHAINS!!

[Nostradammit]

35. "Julian's legal issues have nothing to do with the leaks. "

Yeah, right.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

149. When anyone is being TORTURED it needs to be met with utmost concern .....

and efforts to have it stopped -- at the least sympathy and empathy!

And, of course, the charges against Assange have EVERYTHING to do with the leaks!

[ProudDad]

45. He IS complaining about inhumane treatment...

That's what the OP is about :shrug:

[northernlights]

63. I don't know what he expected, but I expect him to be treated decently and lawfully

and it sounds like they are not treating him decently or lawfully.

Solitary confinement, sleep deprivation and exercise deprivation are not acceptable, period. And he has not even been charged with a crime, let alone tried or found guilty, yet is held indefinitely and in inhuman conditions. I seem to remember having read at some point in time that sleep-deprivation is considered torture under the Geneva Conventions. You know, another one of those "quaint" pieces of paper we are party to.

That is not acceptable to me, and it should not be acceptable to any decent, law-abiding, law-respecting, tax-paying citizen.

[sulphurdunn]

67. Neither the nature of the charges

brought against him, nor his motives, nor his own willingness to face the consequences of his actions, nor his membership in the armed forces bears any logical relationship to the conditions of his confinement, which are clearly inhumane and unnecessary to maintain his captivity. They are, therefore, inexplicable unless their purpose is extrajudicial punishment, in which case they are criminal.

[Doctor_J]

117. He's being tortured. Is this the penalty for suspicion of leaking information?

Scooter Libby was convicted and went to a country club.

[The Wizard]

168. Libby served no time

because there's one set of rules for the Bush cartel and another for everyone else.

[defendandprotect]

145. Did Bradley Manning think he'd be TORTURED? Did we think so?

And what is the end result so many of us are seeking? An end to these wars --

and an end to all wars.

Whose behavior should we be questioning and challenging here -- the TORTURER

or the person trying to end this corruption?

[Hugabear]

151. He should EXPECT to receive his Constitutional rights

He should EXPECT to be treated in a humane manner. He should EXPECT to have due process. He should EXPECT to have legal representation. He should EXPECT a fair, legal process.

[MikeW]

39. solitary confinement is pretty common in these types of cases

[ProudDad]

46. And is one of the most egregious forms of torture

and is unnecessary...

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

71. Please.. someone would paint the walls with this guy

if he was in a general population.

[go west young man]

127. That's bullshit.

I've been in a military brig. It's a Pod of 16 rooms. Very modern. All the other guys in there are getting kicked out so they really don't give a fuck about what you did. On top of that the pods are supervised in the middle by guards. It''s constant surveillance.
There is no fighting allowed. Military brigs are not state prisons. They are quite well run. He could be allowed to exercise and roam the pod like the rest of the enlisted men. They watch TV and play board games. They put you in solitary when you are a
suicide or escape risk. It's a paradox really because the longer you stay in there the more depressed and suicidal you will get. I did 35 days in solitary. It is certainly no fun however someone with a strong mind can entertain themselves. To keep Manning
there for as long as they have is definitely messed up. It doesn't surprise me with out military though. Nothing ever really makes any sense.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

178. More obssession on his death.

[MikeW]

105. solitary = torture ? Please

[defendandprotect]

150. eh ... better do some reading ....

start with Stockholm studies --

failing that -- lock yourself in your bathroom for a week or so with one

magazine and see how you feel--!!

[Alameda]

66. Maybe he wasn't talked into it. Maybe it was his sense of honor.

Perhaps his moral compass let him???? Maybe?

[1monster]

74. You KNOW he broke the law? How? Because the government says so? What ever

happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" Doesn't it apply in military law?

[RSillsbee]

48. If that's what he thought

Then he should be prepared to take the consequences of his actions

[sabra]

20. according to Mr. House's recollection Manning still has hopes for the future:

<snip>

Our conversations, which take place in the presence of marines and electronic monitoring equipment, typically revolve around topics in physics, computer science, and philosophy; he recently mentioned that he hopes to one day make use of the GI Bill towards earning a graduate degree in Physics and a bachelors in Political Science. He rarely if ever talks about his conditions in the brig, and it is not unusual for him to shy away from questions about his well-being by changing the subject entirely.

When I arrived at the brig on December 18th I found him to be much more open to lines of inquiry regarding his circumstances, and in a two and a half hour conversation I learned new details about his life in confinement.

[MH1]

32. does someone with a dishoborable discharge still get GI Bill benefits?

I sincerely doubt it.

Last I heard the basic facts of his case were not in dispute. Despite that he hasn't been convicted in court yet, if the facts are not in dispute I expect he'll be in jail for the rest of his life. With a dishonorable discharge.

Maybe someday they'll let him take correspondence courses though.

[ProudDad]

47. Do you not understand the concept of "innocent until proven guilty"?

[Psephos]

152. Actually, it appears that you don't.

It is a legal concept, narrowly applicable only in a criminal court, and even then, it's limited to findings at the conclusion of trial. It does not apply to a decision to grant a warrant, to arrest, or to require bail, among other things. A murder suspect may legally be held in jail without bail until trial, which might be a long time indeed. No finding of guilt is necessary, only a judgment that evidence is strong enough to compel jailing based on potential further threat to public safety or flight risk.

A prosecutor may also ecide that a case against a charged criminal defendant may not be legally triable due to legal technicalities, and decide not to pursue trial. These technicalities may have nothing to do with factual proofs. The methods used to establish a clear factual basis in science are different from those used in law, and not in a way that makes law findings more objectively factual. Quite the opposite.

The concept of "innocent until proven guilty" also does not apply to civil proceedings, and it sure as hell doesn't apply to opinions, most assuredly not to those expressed on DU. We are all constitutionally free to form and express opinions without needing to submit affidavits of veracity.

It would be easier for you to say why you incorrectly cited the extremely narrow concept of IUPG: because you don't like the opinion you responded to. That's a completely respectable thing, you know. So just say it like that.

[MikeW]

40. kiss that goodbye Bradley ... your GI bill is gone

[RSillsbee]

49. Let us know how that using the GI Bill works out for you guy NT

[IamK]

55. I'll give him this.....

sing along.....

"But he's got high hopes... he's got high hopes

He's got high apple pie in the sky hopes"

Must be in the delusional stage of the mental breakdown...

[smiley]

25. so he's been tried in military court and convicted already?

wow - I guess I missed that part.

[Ghost Dog]

31. You do mean, 'alledgedly', right? (Or does propaganda rule?)

I mean, if they have evidence against him, how come no trial, as soon as humanely possible, already?

[kenfrequed]

38. And...

I think he is all the more heroic for having done so.

[Lord Magus]

43. There's a difference between arrest and extrajudicial punishment.

Which is what this "maximum custody" clearly is.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coalition_unwilling]

58. So much for the presumption of innocence -- Manning has not been

tried yet, much less convicted. Not that you'd know that from your post.

The military is torturing Manning to try to break him so that he will implicate Assange. Not much better than Stalin's show trials, imho.

Manning is absolutely innocent in the eyes of the law until and unless he's convicted.

[MH1]

12. Yes.

[divine_truine]

28. Where did you read that? any links/ resource?

More whistle blowers need to come forward ASAP from within the military and within govt. We are barely seeing the tip of the iceberg!

[MH1]

30. I didn't have to read it, I served in the military.

actually I'm very sure I read it at the time, but 'links' has no pertinence here, given the era ... anyway I'm pretty sure it was in my contract.

Loss of 'free speech' and 'free association' are ones that come immediately to mind.

Btw, have you served and had a different experience?

[kenfrequed]

41. Uhm

Actually it is far more complicated than that.

Military regulations guide your actions on duty which Can limit those freedoms to a certain degree in pursuance of those regulations.

Your speech is not limited at all provided you are off duty at the time and you are not in uniform or attempting to speak in an offical capacity as a serviceman or woman.

Obviously incarceration has its own limits on his freedoms, but it is best not to make blanket statements about losing all of your freedoms.

Even in civilian life there are consequence to some forms of free speech and expression. Shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, plastering pronography all over the city, and making threatening phone calls could all be considered actions for which there would be penalties.

[EvilMonk]

160. Yes.

In the Military you have lessened rights. It's a necessity to ensure uniformity and strict discipline. You are even open to double jeopardy. If you commit a crime in town, you will be charged in civilian court and by the UCMJ (Unified Code of Military Justice).

You really don't have any rights while you're "in". That's why we say that "to those that have served, freedom has a flavor others will never know."

[James48]

180. yes. absolutely. n/t

[Swagman]

68. disappointing-your language assumes his guilt before trial

when someone feels compelled to speak out as he has done and demonstrated that governments have engaged in murderous lies that dwarf his alleged crime, he should be supported to the fullest extent.

[1monster]

73. We all know just how thorough our military and FBI, etc., investigators are ... still waiting on

a credible charge in the anthrax case...

Perhaps the man is not guilty of getting the State Department's (and all those others who jumped on the bandwagon) panties in a wad. Maybe he isn't the whistle blower? There's been no trial and, so far, no presentation of the evidence.

And if the security on those, thus far, petty revelations of the State Deparments catty cables is so loose that a Private can leak them, then the State Department and other government agencies should get out of the secret business. They never should have been in it in the first place.

[liberation]

128. Ah, yes... let's blame the victim

I am sure you must wonder all the time what raped women must be thinking that would happen when they decide to wear that skirt.

[StarsInHerHair]

164. the viciousness and the amount of time which MUST have been put into

coming up with these horrible condition: ....“…First Lieutenant Brian Villiard, an officer at Quantico, said is allowed bedding of “non-shreddable” material. “I’ve held it, I’ve felt it, it’s soft, I’d sleep under it,” he told The Daily Beast.” — Quantico brig official Brian Villard, Interview with Daily Beast, December 17 2010

Manning’s Response

Manning related to me on December 19 2010 that his blankets are similar in weight and heft to lead aprons used in X-ray laboratories, and similar in texture to coarse and stiff carpet. He stated explicitly that the blankets are not soft in the least and expressed concern that he had to lie very still at night to avoid receiving carpet burns. The problem of carpet burns was exacerbated, he related, by the stipulation that he must sleep only in his boxer shorts as part of the longstanding POI order. Manning also stated on December 19 2010 that hallway-mounted lights shine through his window at night. This constant illumination is consistent with reports from attorney David Coombs’ blog that marines must visually inspect Manning as he sleeps"....

my God we have become the enemy we claim to fight against-at least those in charge of situations like this; I see no Humanity in this, I see psychopaths in charge.

[sabrina 1]

167. The military is subject to our laws and to International law under

the treaties signed and ratified. He took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. That is the law of the land.

When he saw things he knew were wrong, he was obligated by his oath to try to stop them.

If the military was acting according to the law of the land, which they are obliged to do, he would not be incarcerated, he would be promoted for reporting wrong-doing.

When a military or government punishes those who report wrong-doing it is not the messenger who is the criminal.

'What did he expect'? He probably thought he lived in a democracy where the rule of law was respected. At the age at which he enlisted, he was naive enough to believe that.

The military is not above the laws of this country and their treatment of Manning is illegal under all of our laws.

Do you believe that our military is expected to violate the law and we should just shut up about it and take it?

Like Manning, I expected far more. I guess I was naive also. I thought we were the good guys, not some third world military junta.

[thanks_imjustlurking]

175. Yes, you do lose some of your rights, but....!

"I don't know what he thought was going to happen"???!!!

We're not discussing the fact that he is being confined (which I'm sure he did expect) but the fact that he is being tortured by his own country.

[DirkGently]

5. I'd like to hear the rationale for enforced lack of exercise. One of the few ways to protect sanity.

[defendandprotect]

7. "...severely restricts his ability to exercise, communicate, and sleep." ---

What Manning needs, and what his attorney has already urged, is to have the unnecessary “Prevention of Injury” order lifted that severely restricts his ability to exercise, communicate, and sleep.

The inhumanity of our own government can't be denied any longer --

this is purposeful destruction of this man -- which seems to be the one way

US/CIA has a chance of creating false charges against Assange!

[coalition_unwilling]

61. Torture is as American as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown) - n/t

[defendandprotect]

9. White House Contact --- ??? Might help ... ?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

[U4ikLefty]

11. Don't join.

They'll use you & toss you out like toilet paper.

[OregonBlue]

14. And if you do join, don't reveal classified information. Unless you're prepared to pay the price.

[U4ikLefty]

22. Yep, "the price"is too high when joining with a conscience.

therefore don't join.

[nyc 4 Biden]

15. disgusting. n/t

[Wilms]

16. He's being Gitmo'd. Here's a UN statement on wikileaks...for a little perspective.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x58892

[patrice]

17. That talk we see about "suicide risk" scares hell out of me. Someone could kill him & then claim it

was suicide.

9/11 on a different scale.

[me b zola]

19. Could we get 100-200 people willing to protest outside of the detention facility?

Coordinate with international media and domestic media who still cover stories (mostly indy). Would people be willing to risk the consequences?

[dothemath]

21. Political prisoner

Mr. President, please do something. Manning has not been charged with a crime. Repeat, Manning has not been charged with a crime. Hello? As commander-in-chief, you can do something.

I am appalled. And saddened. Heads up, Americans, it can happen to you. Looks like the great experiment is failing and coming to an end after 234 years. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Churchill was right. Very bad forms don't last very long, even if they are better than all the alternative forms.

[divine_truine]

27. NO ONE FROM THE schrub admin. was incarcerated FOR OUTING OUR OWN INTEL. AGENT VALERIE PLAME! not 1!

May the GodDess of Liberty & Justice address the situation that is the INHUMANE TREATMENT of pfc bradley manning who is being forced fed anti-depressants and not allowed to sleep due to being woken up every 5 min. I come from a military family and served 8 yrs for my part in the U.S. Armed Forces. This extremely abusive treatment & solitary confinement the last 7 months is just that! INHUMANE! Ladies & Gentlemen...your tax dollars at work! I am thoroughly & utterly disgusted and ashamed our military is stuping to this level and almost crossing the line! This smells like torture to me. Lift POI order IMMEDIATELY! and quit f#cking around and bring this issue in front of a military court! Why waste time? It looks to me there has been serious violations to his person (article 13?) since his arrest. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? The worst tragedy in this story is the criminal double standard being applied here. It looks to me 'they' are trying to drive him towards insanity. If you're woken up every 5 minutes how the hell are you suppose to sleep unless the intent is to deprive him of sleep? Damn to oblivion those officers/enlisted who have allowed this prisoner abuse to go on without accountability! I am deeply ashamed this is happening in our name. The pentagon (as well as VP Joe Biden until he called julian assange a high-tech terrorist? Really? omfg!) announced recently the info passed onto wikileaks did no damage and was more or less embarrassing to those countries who had their costume ripped off. Those who torture at home or abroad will experience untold consequences rendered by the Spiritual Hierarchy! I pray those who are abusing/torturing pfc Bradley Manning (& NO TRIAL!) recieve an article 15 court-,martial and be DISHONORABLY discharged immediately! Hang in there Bradley! The World is praying for you and your well-being. DAMN THOSE BASED IN QUANTICO, VIRGINIA who in their overzealous/ criminal need to inflict torture have gotten away it for 7 months! Damn You!x(

[jwirr]

34. Held by our constitution loving military! NOT. Tell me what is it we

fight for now?

[davidthegnome]

36. Even prisoners

should be treated humanely. He may have broken the law (allegedly), but he hasn't killed anyone or caused anyone to die to the extent of my knowledge.

With that being said - it is true that when you enlist you sign away your rights to freedom of speech or free association. It's perhaps one of the reasons why I never did, there would be things I do not think I could in good faith keep secret. That doesn't mean, however, that the conditions this man is in are anything resembling fair or just. If he is to be held prisoner for an extended length of time, he should be charged and convicted by military tribunal - isn't that how it is supposed to be done?

There is a difference between charging and convicting a man who has broken the law and simply keeping him imprisoned in very inhumane conditions.

In my opinion, Manning did what he felt was right, and I think someone has to tell us what's going on. It's a shame it required this action from a young military private to enlighten us as to the actions of our government. Were it up to me, he would be pardoned and allowed to resign to return a relatively normal life. It isn't up to me, my opinion doesn't count for much here - but the rule of law should.

Whatever you may personally think of his actions, he should be at least tried and convicted before such punishment can take place. My understanding of military law and procedure is limited - but doesn't he need to be at least charged before he can be held in these conditions for such a length of time?

[valerief]

37. As a soldier, isn't it his job to kill anyway? nt

[ProudDad]

42. Torture is torture

and his treatment is torture...

And quite common in the dungeons of the USAmerican criminal-injustice system...

[Towlie]

53. ... and the purpose of torture is torture. So said O'Brien to Winston Smith.

Manning and Wikileaks made our country look bad by exposing the truth. This action only makes us look even worse.

[Heywood J]

52. The fact that he's gone this long without even a show trial tells me

they may very well not have enough for a conviction. If they had anything damning, we'd be seeing shades of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and he'd have been charged and on trial by now. If they do have enough to convict him, I wonder when the speedy trial issue kicks in.

[smiley]

57. it's called indefinite detention.

and the US is getting quite good at it.

[MilesColtrane]

171. There are charges against him.

Read them here:

http://www.bradleymanning.org/3163/charge-sheet-html/

But, I'm sure there will be more to come than just these.

[davidthegnome]

54. Any former or current military

able to help me out by explaining what the proper course of action (under the law) is (or should be) here? I mean, is it really legal and okay to just hold him like this without charges? I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, I just really want to know. It strikes me as very strange that this is being done without charges.

[IamK]

56. He was charged.....

Manning was arrested by agents of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command in May 2010 and held in pre-trial confinement in a military jail at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait.<1><2><3> On 5 July 2010, two misconduct charges were brought against him for "transferring classified data onto his personal computer and adding unauthorized software to a classified computer system" and "communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source".<2><7> The charges included unauthorized access to SIPRNet computers, download of more than 150,000 United States Department of State diplomatic cables, download of a classified PowerPoint presentation, and downloading a classified video of a military operation in Baghdad on July 12, 2007. Manning is also charged with forwarding the video and at least one of the cables to an unauthorized person.<19> The maximum jail sentence is 52 years.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

[sirthomas66]

78. It wouldn't matter what the USCOMJ said. The Unted States is

now a rogue nation. And rogue nations pay no attention to their legal constructs.

[DissedByBush]

96. He has been charged

Next is the equivalent of a grand jury coming soon to be followed by trial next year.

Conditions during confinement are normally like basic training, very strict, very military, don't speak unless spoken to, everything spotless, all that stuff.

But despite the strictness there is a good possibility other soldiers and marines there wouldn't mind killing a famous traitor if he were put in the general population.

He may be willing to risk that but apparently the Army isn't.

This is so highly publicized you know heads would roll if he got so much of a scratch on him during confinement.

[go west young man]

135. Not true. See post 128 above please.

[DissedByBush]

136. I guess it depends on the facility

No, I haven't been in one. But I did know a sergeant who was one of the guards in one.

There was enough common time among prisoners for someone to get hurt.

[go west young man]

144. Not in the Pod I was in and it is the most common type.

There are 8 cells up and 8 cells down. It's octagonal with the guards in an octagon booth in the center. There are four pods surrounding the guards.
Thre was no fighting I assure you. The military is not the civilian world. It was very disciplined. And no one cares about what you did. Everyone is
booted out. Why would they care?

[chervilant]

59. hmm...

This is the US Corporate fascists' version of the practice in Argentina of publicly 'disappearing' dissidents in order to quash organized resistance to the radical economic restructuring driven by Uncle Miltie's Chicago Boys. The message is clear. How many of us will have to be 'silenced' before we say no more?

[harvey007]

62. Political Prisoner

Solitary confinement is torture. Try it sometime if you don't believe it.

The mistreatment of Private Manning should be of concern to all Americans. He is innocent until proven guilty.
---------

"The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world....The USA also has the highest total documented prison and jail population in the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._military_prisons

[Pavulon]

72. Dont believe the hype, charge sheet..

and instruction on removing a fish hook.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33963588/Charge-Sheet-Pvt-Bradley-Manning

keep the bait..

http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/firstaid/fishhook.shtml

[go west young man]

137. It's funny how all of those charges state "being of a nature

to bring discredit upon the armed forces". Isn't the discredit really because of the actions of the armed forces which Manning (provided he did it) has now exposed?
In other words his actions could be to the benefit of the U.S. government if this exposure brings about a true and just U.S. instead of the corrupt one we currently have.
In a better U.S.A. he would be a hero. Unfortunately we are fucked up right now.

[Pavulon]

140. if he is willing to sign the form for access, where it says 10 years and 10K

he should be a man and do his time. If he is charged with a death penalty crime, he should retain a good lawyer, he will need it.

have you read what he exposed? no war crimes yet, just stuff we have to pay to fix.


NEW ZEALAND PRAISED BY ISLAMIC RESISTANCE MOVEMENT
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-21 21:09 · 2004-07-19 06:06:00 from Embassy Wellington · #04WELLINGTON611 · CONFIDENTIAL RR · Original Source

SPAIN: IPR PIRACY GETTING MORE ATTENTION
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-22 12:12 · 2008-12-22 16:04:00 from Embassy Madrid · #08MADRID1351 · UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY RR · Original Source

ENGAGING BANGLADESH’S RAPID ACTION BATTALION:
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-21 21:09 · 2008-08-11 08:08:00 from Embassy Dhaka · #08DHAKA856 · CONFIDENTIAL OO · Original Source

BRAZIL: PMDB PLAYED HARDBALL WITH AIR TRAFFIC INQUIRY IN BID FOR SPOILS
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-21 07:07 · 2007-05-16 15:03:00 from Embassy Brasilia · #07BRASILIA872 · CONFIDENTIAL RR · Original Source

CABINET MINISTER RESIGNS OVER PHOTOS WITH ANNA
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-21 21:09 · 2007-03-06 15:03:00 from Embassy Nassau · #07NASSAU273 · CONFIDENTIAL RR · Original Source

INTERNET PIRACY IN SPAIN: SUSPENSION OF
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-22 12:12 · 2009-04-28 06:06:00 from Embassy Madrid · #09MADRID417 · UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY PP · Original Source

AMBASSADOR URGES PRIME MINISTER,S ADVISER TO
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-21 21:09 · 2009-07-29 09:09:00 from Embassy Dhaka · #09DHAKA741 · CONFIDENTIAL PP · Original Source

C) VATICAN BACKS AWAY FROM DEAL WITH INTERNATIONAL
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-21 21:09 · 2009-10-16 14:02:00 from Embassy Vatican · #09VATICAN106 · CONFIDENTIAL OO · Original Source

SPAIN: MFA EXPLAINS ITS STANCE ON DRAFT PARAGRAPH
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17 h ago / leaked 2010-12-22 12:12 · 2009-01-12 11:11:00 from Embassy Madrid · #09MADRID29 · SECRET PP · Original Source

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[avebury]

65. I am tired of the US attitude of do as we say not as we do

The US has had no trouble with charging people in other countries for committing war crimes. I would hope that if people in our government or military commit war crimes or any other type of crime that there would be someone with enough courage to speak out against that crime. For evil to win all it takes if for good people to do nothing. I view Manning as a hero, patriot, and political prisoner.

Did you watch Michael Moore on Rachel Maddow's show the other night? He was correct that the US has done a lot of bad/questionable things over the past several years. You cannot blame the world for wanting to shine the light of day on our activities.

[Pavulon]

70. Aww poor baby, like little bobby hanssen

this piece of shit will die in prison in isolation an old broken man. He took an oath he pissed on it. He committed a massive crime and can at least shut the fuck up and serve his time like a man.

Hannsen will die in florence just like manning will.

[sirthomas66]

77. Manning is an international hero who exposed the criminality of the

United States for everyone to see. Thank God for this man. Hopefully, we can rid of some of these pieces of human filth due to his efforts.

[Pavulon]

80. Pollard id a fucking hero to some, he should die in prison

IMHO. scum like manning.

[Union Scribe]

79. Dang, took you six hours

Did you not hear the bell going off?

[Pavulon]

81. Aww shopping to complete..

did not have time to post on a treasonous piece of shit until now.

[sirthomas66]

82. Were they having any sales on eye of newt?

[Union Scribe]

85. Well at least you got around to it

Goodness knows the absence was palpable, and perhaps a bit worrying to some.

[Pavulon]

87. Cant have a manning assange love in without someone

pointing out manning is a treasonous piece of shit and assange his conspirator. But hey, I think they have manning devotional candles now.

[joshcryer]

107. There is no evidence that Assange is his conspirator.

On a scheme of things this is probably the least traitorous thing to worry about. I'd be more pissed about the successionists.

[boppers]

83. Whistleblowing is Espionage?

Martynov and Motorin were executed (for spying, no less) because of Hanssen. You're comparing direct causes of death for profit.... to embarrassing diplomats and exposing war crimes.

Interesting moral compass you have there.

Oh, and since you may have forgotten the oath (or never took it):
"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

[Pavulon]

84. He is the domestic ememy, he did not follow the orders issued, and ignored the

form he signed saying it is a crime to steal the information he stole. He is a rosenberg and he will die in florence or kansas as and will realize at some point during his life what a turd he is.

[boppers]

88. Copying information is not theft.

Nobody lost anything (duplication is not loss), any more than Linux "stole" an operating system.

Oh, and it turns out that the Rosenburgs didn't provide any information that wasn't already known... they were killed out of blood lust and hysteria by a nation living in self-perpetuated fear.

You'd think the U.S. would know better by know, but, well, we are having this discussion, so maybe not.

[Pavulon]

89. Its espionage. He is charged with enough now to allow him to die in prison

and those charges could be ammended to make it a death penalty case.

What he did was a crime, he signed a form that clearly makes it known what he did was a felony, so IMHO he should shut the fuck up and serve his sentence like a man.

Lets be clear, what he did is at minimum 11,000 felonies.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33963588/Charge-Sheet-Pvt-Bradley-Manning

[boppers]

92. His words:

(1:10:38 PM) bradass87: its open diplomacy... world-wide anarchy in CSV
format... its Climategate with a global scope, and breathtaking depth...
its beautiful, and horrifying...
...
(1:11:54 PM) bradass87: and... its important that it gets out... i feel,
for some bizarre reason
(1:12:02 PM) bradass87: it might actually change something
(1:13:10 PM) bradass87: i just... dont wish to be a part of it... at least
not now... im not ready... i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of
my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of
having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as boy...
(1:14:11 PM) bradass87: i've totally lost my mind... i make no sense...
the CPU is not made for this motherboard...
(1:14:42 PM) bradass87: s/as boy/as a boy
(1:30:32 PM) bradass87: >sigh<
(1:31:40 PM) bradass87: i just wanted enough time to figure myself out...
to be myself... and be running around all the time, trying to meet someone
else's expectations
(1:32:01 PM) bradass87: *and not be
(1:33:03 PM) bradass87: im just kind of drifting now...
(1:34:11 PM) bradass87: waiting to redeploy to the US, be discharged...
and figure out how on earth im going to transition
(1:34:45 PM) bradass87: all while witnessing the world freak out as its
most intimate secrets are revealed

Yes, he knew what he was facing up to.

[Pavulon]

97. Does not matter, just like rosenberg

his motive does not justify the crime. he will still die in prison. Post the part where he has to check the status of information with assange? smells like a conspiracy.

i have those logs too:

(1:49:40 PM) bradass87: this one was a test: Classified cable from US
Embassy Reykjavik on Icesave dated 13 Jan 2010
(1:50:30 PM) bradass87: the result of that one was that the icelandic
ambassador to the US was recalled, and fired
(1:51:02 PM) bradass87: thats just one cable...
(1:51:14 PM) Adrian: Anything unreleased?
(1:51:25 PM) bradass87: i'd have to ask assange

[boppers]

102. Not a lawyer, are you, then?

Motive is a *huge* factor in courts.

You're right about establishing the Assange/conspiracy angle, but since Lamo offered his services as a journalist *and* priest, the chat logs may be inadmissible as evidence... plus, putting Lamo on the stand would be a *huge* nightmare for the prosecution.

[Pavulon]

104. Again his userid will hang him

literally (well they use a needle now) so after his id is tied to this case the only decision will be if he decides to testify against manning to save his life.

His motive will not matter any more than McVeighs, he is facing death in the exact same prison.

[boppers]

108. Two words: Michael Fortier

He's walking free, under a new name, and new identity, courtesy of the federal government.

Oh, and Fortier's actions led to an act of mass murder. Manning released information about murders already committed.

[joshcryer]

110. No, too weak, it'll likely be his IP address.

They'll be able to get a jury to convict him but he won't get the death penalty.

[oneshooter]

115. I believe that a 13 knot rope is still proper for treason, and espionage in the US Army. n/t

[DissedByBush]

98. Julius Rosenberg was guilty

Absolutely, no question, proven fact.

Ethel was railroaded to try to pressure him into a confession and giving up his contacts.

[Pavulon]

99. Julius took no money for his acts, just like manning. He did it for a feeling

no matter, he was held accountable. Like manning will be.

[boppers]

103. Julius was guilty of providing the same level of detail as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon

The act of providing information to others was a crime in the 40's and 50's.

Still is, according to some.

[eridani]

163. Enemy? Unlike starting illegal wars, exposing them makes him an ally

--of everything about our country that is decent.

[Canuckistanian]

95. Uh....

He'll have to be CONVICTED of that crime first.

Or did you forget about that "little technicality"?

[Pavulon]

100. Dont worry, he posted enough in the clear to convict himself

only question is will he trade a death penalty charge to testify against the guy who pulled his strings.

His userid will be all the fuck over each and every document he stole.

[Canuckistanian]

111. Well then, let's just wait for the conviction, then

Before we start spouting off about "guilt", shall we?

I thought this was America.

Or do you support the total revocation of the Magna Carta and Habeus?

[Pavulon]

119. He is innocent in the eyes of the law

to me he is as guilty as sin and a true turd.

[Forkboy]

121. Really? There was no way to guess that from your previous posts.

[Canuckistanian]

148. Fair enough

We'll see who's right.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

109. He'll likely be pardoned in 2016, as one of Obama's last acts. Never attribute to malice...

...that which can easily be attributed to stupidity. Manning was a stupid idealist with access to information he certainly should not have had access to (you're telling me a spy could get access to the same shit simply by serving a few weeks in training?).

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swagman]

153. yes..Manning's crime dwarfs the murder of tens of thousands

of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis. What IS your problem ?...the US military regularly and routinely enages in criminal and murderous activity and 99% of the time walks free from criticism let alone punishment.

Manning is a hero and a patriot..not you buster.

[tekisui]

179. More spamming on Manning's death.

[NutmegYankee]

185. +1

[humbled_opinion]

75. Probably has been waterboarded...

just to make sure he told everything that he knew...:spank:

[pitohui]

86. what northern lights said ''i expect him to be treated humanely"

you know what? i really don't know, don't care what a naive, idealistic 23 yr old thought he could accept as the consequences of his actions

scientists know that if we hold someone in isolation for long periods of time, w.out allowing them to read, to exercise, to communicate, to sleep, and then on top of that we pump them full of mind-altering drugs (which is what anti depressants are) then the result will be insanity

manning may have believed, as an idealistic young man, that he could be "strong" and they would not pump him full of drugs and make him crazy, the fact is, if they keep him isolated and full of drugs for long enough, they WILL destroy his mind, this is not a matter of human weakness or failure, it's science

i expect our gov't to treat a man, convicted of NO crime, in a humane manner

i expect our gov't to treat a man, even if he IS convicted of a crime, in a humane manner

this means the ability to exercise, to read, to communicate, to sleep...this is just basic human decency, folks

we yelled when the soviet union would deliberately drive its dissidents to insanity but we go along w. this claiming "he knew he would pay a price?"

we hold america to a lower standard that the soviet union and the kgi? sorry folks i call bullshit

i don't give a fuck what manning "knew" or "believed," no decent gov't has the right to steal a man's sanity thru these well known techniques for destroying the personality

IF he has committed a crime, i have a radical idea, PROVE IT, instead of trying to destroy a man and make it where he'll say whatever you like -- that to me is not proof of anything except human evil

i'm truly tired of this crap, if manning is guilty of something, just take it to court, if assange really leaked secrets, don't play rape-o...this whole mess really makes it look like our gov't is in the wrong, not mannning or assange...they are two individual men, if they are so bad and evil, should be really easy to just PROVE IT

[boppers]

90. He was heavily self medicating before the arrest.

If you haven't read the chat logs, you should:
http://www.dailytech.com/UPDATE+ManningLamo+Chat+Logs+Released+Lamo+Claims+Wikileaks+Betrayal/article18841.htm

He explains himself, his actions, his fears, in lurid detail.

[MilesColtrane]

173. Re: Deprivation

According to his lawyer, he is allowed to sleep from 8pm to 5am during the week, and 8pm to 7am on the weekends.

He is also allowed writing paper, books, TV, and walking exercise daily, and visitors on the weekends.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2010/12/typical-day-for-pfc-bradley-manning.html

[Canuckistanian]

93. There's no court hearing date? Really?

On one of the most dangerous people in America? With CLEAR EVIDENCE of his crime?

And he's being held under such severe restrictions?

WTF is going on here?

[rosesaylavee]

94. Send the WH an email:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

If enough of us do this, I would hope that his conditions would be improved.

[Historic NY]

101. He wouldn't make it in general population for trial...unless thats what Assange wants...

that would be convenient .

[RollWithIt]

Kind of a shame some like Assange was the one running Wikileaks...

Something about him bothers me. Maybe the god complex part of it. The rape allegations seem to be bogus but his statements and interviews tend to bother me. Particularly his responses to questions about anyone involved in this other than him. Possible deaths. Etc.


EDIT: For example, during the Valerie Plame Bush fiasco we all condemned the leak of her identity because it put our covert OPs lives at risk. This stuff really does have the ability to cost lives if it hasn't already. We won't know the truth for years of course.

[RollWithIt]

112. Unfortunately, he is subject to military law and will likely never see freedom again....

BUT, he shouldn't be tortured with solitary conditions like this. The kid basically gave his entire life away to leak those documents.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maryf]

114. A Guardian article says the UN is looking into torture reports

Hope this isn't a duplicate:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/23/un-treatment-leaks-bradley-manning

UN to investigate treatment of jailed leaks suspect Bradley Manning

Office of rapporteur on torture confirms it is looking into complaint made by Manning supporter

* Ewen MacAskill in Washington
* The Guardian, Thursday 23 December 2010


Bradley Manning Bradley Manning was charged in July with leaking classified material related to WikiLeaks. Photograph: AP

The United Nations is investigating a complaint on behalf of Bradley Manning that he is being mistreated while held since May in US Marine Corps custody pending trial. The army private is charged with the unauthorised use and disclosure of classified information, material related to the WikiLeaks, and faces a court martial sometime in 2011.

The office of Manfred Nowak, special rapporteur on torture based in Geneva, received the complaint from a Manning supporter; his office confirmed that it was being looked into. Manning's supporters say that he is in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day; this could be construed as a form of torture. This month visitors reported that his mental and physical health was deteriorating.

The Pentagon denies the former intelligence analyst is mistreated, saying he is treated the same as other prisoners at Quantico, Virginia, is able to exercise, and has access to newspapers and visitors.

He was charged in July with leaking classified material including video posted by WikiLeaks of a 2007 US attack in Baghdad by a Apache helicopter that killed a Reuters news photographer and his driver. He is also suspected of leaking other material to the website, which is posting more than 250,000 secret state department cables. Manning has not commented on whether he is the source.

more at link...

[styersc]

116. Just the most recent example of Manning abuse.

Archie forced his sons Peyton and Eli to throw footballs and compete in athletic events. Now this new Manning guy is undergoing torture.

The Horror.

[U4ikLefty]

123. Plenty of DL's are abusing a Manning this season.

lol

[alp227]

118. ick. American federal detention centers stop at NOTHING to torture

whether they be foreign "enemy combatants," immigrants accused of breaking the law, or even our own soldiers. What's astonishing is that those who expose wrongdoing (Assange, Manning, Ellsburg) are the criminals, not those who committed the wrongdoing to begin with.

[ColesCountyDem]

122. You committed an act of espionage-- possibly treason-- during wartime...

What in the name of all that's holy did you THINK was going to happen to you, Pvt. Manning?

:eyes:

[Brilliantrocket]

124. Shouldn't be tortured for that..

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Even if he was guilty, he shouldn't be subjected to these crazy conditions.

[ColesCountyDem]

125. Who says it's torture?

I haven't heard anyone prove that. Have you?

[EFerrari]

132. What do you think this is, China? We don't punish people BEFORE the trial here.

Oh, wait --

[Pavulon]

134. Jesus and the holy father

manning and Assange i mean, will get a fair trial. Manning cant be put in genpop or he may be killed and not be able to testify against god on the cross, i mean in federal court. I had 8 minutes to post that before it was to Sacrilicious..

[ColesCountyDem]

146. It amazes me that some people think that an active-duty soldier suspected of...

... espionage and/or treason during a time of war should be held in conditions that would put Club Med to shame....

:shrug:

[Swagman]

158. what war ?..oh you mean the illegal wars ?

[ColesCountyDem]

186. It's not helpful to conflate issues.

We deplore it when the GOP does it, so we ought to be doubly-careful in seeing to it that we don't do it, either.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swagman]

155. you mean during an illegal wartime don't you ?

[ColesCountyDem]

191. If that's what I'd meant, that's what I'd have posted.

It's helpful not to conflate issues. The war's being illegal does not make what Pvt. Manning is alleged to have done legal.

[eridani]

165. The treason thing applies to those who lie us into unnecessary wars n/t

[bhikkhu]

131. I think you have to look back to the Nuremburg trials for perspective

...when the standard defense was "just following orders", and the response, which is now settled international law as far as that sort of circumstance, is that individual responsibility still applies in anyone violating Geneva Conventions or in any way a party to or silent witness of war crimes or crimes against humanity.

So what would need to be established is whether there are, in those cables, concealed war crimes or crimes against humanity. If you read Manning's confession, clearly he believes there are, and it was entirely on that belief that he gave them to Wikileaks as a matter of conscience. If you look at the history of the 20th century, how many people have been party to worse and done nothing? How many good soldiers witnessed, participated in, knew of and kept silent about atrocities? Read of the Nuremburg trials, and think about what would have happened to any of those guys, or any of the thousands who weren't charged, if they'd objected to the horrific crap they were a part of...for the most part, as far as we know, none of them did, but Manning has.

[Pavulon]

133. Really LULA's air traffic issues are war crimes? taliban funding? do you read the leaks?

he is a monkey slinging shit, there is nothing but anarchists brew of random data we will be paying cash money to fix.

His beliefs are irrelevant

http://cablesearch.org/?q=%3Anewest

ID
06MADRID2380
SUBJECT
DISRUPTING EXTERNAL FINANCING TO THE TALIBAN -
DATE
2006-09-22 12:12:00
CLASSIFICATION
SECRET
ORIGIN
Embassy Madrid
TEXT
S E C R E T MADRID 002380

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

STATE PASS S/CT DEPUTY COORDINATOR VIRGINIA E. PALMER

E.O. 12958: DECL: 09/22/2016
TAGS: PTER KTFN EFIN KPAO ASEC SP
SUBJECT: DISRUPTING EXTERNAL FINANCING TO THE TALIBAN -
OPERATIONAL COOPERATION WITH SPAIN BEST

REF: STATE 145269

Classified By: DCM Hugo LLorens - Reasons: 1.4 (b) and (d)


TREASURY DEPUTY SECRETARY KIMMITT'S MEETING WITH
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4 h ago / leaked 2010-12-23 12:12 · 2008-03-11 13:01:00 from Embassy Madrid · #08MADRID294 · SECRET RR · Original Source

TREASURY UNDER SECRETARY LEVEY SCENESETTER
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4 h ago / leaked 2010-12-23 12:12 · 2008-07-10 09:09:00 from Embassy Madrid · #08MADRID757 · CONFIDENTIAL RR · Original Source

SPAIN/COUNTERTERRORISM - CHARGE'S MEETING WITH
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4 h ago / leaked 2010-12-23 12:12 · 2008-05-12 06:06:00 from Embassy Madrid · #08MADRID522 · SECRET RR · Original Source

SPAIN: STATUS REPORT ON YARKAS, JAILED AL QAEDA
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4 h ago / leaked 2010-12-23 12:12 · 2009-03-09 17:05:00 from Embassy Madrid · #09MADRID255 · SECRET RR · Original Source

DISRUPTING EXTERNAL FINANCING TO THE TALIBAN -

[go west young man]

143. Nice cherry picking dude!

How about the innocent Reuters cameramen and their rescuers in the van in the Apache video?
How about spying and collecting bio data at the U.N?
How about doing the bidding of Saudi Arabia when it comes to Iran?
How about proof of going along with Israeli assassinations whilst giving them 30 billion dollars?
How about covering for Pfizer when their drug tests are killing innocent children?
How about defying the Geneva Conventions when it comes to renditions and backdoor deals
with Spain, Poland, The UK and many other countries?
How about Manning is moving us along to a better USA where this BS doesn't take place in our name?
How about you properly read the cables instead of wrapping yourself in your beloved flag.
Your level of vitriol grows old.

[Smarmie Doofus]

170. Bang-zoom. Thanks for this. n/t

[Pavulon]

194. that was the "current" link on their site (nt)

[Swagman]

157. and do you have a view on the crimes that have been exposed by

Manning's actions or are they just a sideshow ?.

[bhikkhu]

198. I read Manning's "confession"

which you kindly posted in an earlier link. I know little else about him, but reading his words it is clear why he did what he did. Taken in historical context, Nuremberg is the parallel that comes to mind. He is being prosecuted (at some point) for doing what we previously prosecuted others for failing to do - he acted on his conscience for the good of others, at the risk of his own life.

[Swagman]

156. yes and Nuremberg was about prosecuting criminals for

engaging in a CRIMINAL WAR. The invasion of nations without justification.

Those who are blindly pronouncing Manning a traitor are a disgrace. They are denying that the USA has illegally invaded 2 countries which have not harmed the USA.

And the USA has a history of supporting illegal war actions. Or does Mai Lai mean nothing.

[lovuian]

139. The cruelty in which Manning is being put through

only furthers the case against America ....and torture

I'm appalled that the Obama Administration continues the policies of his predecessors

[EFerrari]

141. They're trying to coerce testimony, just like the previous administration.

Sickening.

[StarsInHerHair]

166. Bradley Manning IS a political prisoner, I agree with Assange's statement

nt

[paparush]

174. Like the US military/govt is going to give a flying f*ck about what the U.N finds.

I'm glad the UN is there. Frankly, I'm completely surprised they've been granted any access.

Manning's situation is criminal. Charge the man with ...something...or let him go. Welcome to Gitmo in the Homeland.

[Crabby Appleton]

176. He was charged on 5 July 2010 with UCMJ violations

of Article 92 & 134

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2010/07/manning070510.pdf

[paparush]

190. Thanks for that. My post was in error and I stand corrected. nt

[msanthrope]

181. He was charged in July. But don't let facts interfere. n/t

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bo]

196. United Banana Republics of America...

how low can we go

[Imajika]

197. This kid will rot in jail for the rest of his life...

In time, the keyboard commando's who endlessly tell us all what a hero Manning is will have long forgotten him. His memory replaced by more current news, family functions, holidays - life will move on for most of those lauding Manning now. But for Bradley, life will never move on. This is it for him. He will waste away in a cell, no doubt increasingly full of regret as the years pass for what he has done and what could have been. The day he is finally convicted and sent away forever is the day he will fully wish he could take it all back and go back in time to the moment he chose to violate his oath and make a different decision.

I feel bad for the kid in a way. He deserves every bit of punishment he is receiving and will receive going forward, but it is still a wasted life. He accomplished nothing of significance other than to cost us all a bunch of money and to make our government even more secretive - just the opposite of what those who support him thought would be the outcome. In the long view, Manning accomplished nothing of any significance. He put not a single dent in the "empire" so many of his fan club thought he could bring down. No war crimes prosecutions will result, no change in foreign policy, no end to the "illegal wars", just nothing. A complete waste. The US government will become more compartmentalized and secretive, lots of money will be spent to prevent these sorts of releases in the future, for awhile US foreign service personnel will be a bit more careful about passing on information so our leaders may have a harder time pursing diplomacy - but in time, this hiccup too shall pass and nothing will have changed. And all the while, Bradley Manning will bit sitting in a cell rotting away.

edited for spelling