Calif. Police Officers Kill Man Pointing Water Nozzle, Not Gun

[Judi Lynn]

Source: CBS News

December 14, 2010 4:58 PM
Calif. Police Officers Kill Man Pointing Water Nozzle, Not Gun
Posted by Naimah Jabali-Nash

http://i.i.com.com.nyud.net:8090/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2010/12/14/nozzleshooting_370x278.jpg

This undated photo provided by the family of Douglas Zerby
shows Zerby, left, and his then-fiancee Tina. (AP Photo/Family Photo)

LONG BEACH, Calif. (CBS/AP) Long Beach police officers shot and killed a man Sunday when they apparently mistook a pistol-grip water nozzle he was holding, for a gun.

Now family members of the man, 35-year-old Douglas Zerby, are lashing out at the police, saying they made no attempt to contact him before opening fire.

Zerby was gunned down at an apartment building Sunday after two people reported a man with a gun sitting on a backyard porch landing, according to authorities.

Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said officers took positions to observe Zerby, who appeared intoxicated, and believed he had a "tiny six-shooter" as described by a male caller.



Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20025657-504083.html

[villager]

1. Gunned him down with no warning. Murder (not "suicide") by cop.

Increasingly out of control cops.

[Pavulon]

10. You dont get a warning when you point a gun at the police

or another person for that matter. If he pointed that at me he would be just as dead. Real life is not tv. He got a chest full of buckshot for pointing what looks like a gun at officers.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/man-killed-by-long-beach-police-was-holding-a-water-nozzle.html

[savalez]

12. Ok tough guy.

But you should get warned when you point a water nozzle at them.

[Pavulon]

15. Missing the part of the post with content?

it generally goes here and would say something like the police rushed in or should have sent a dog or whatever captain hindsight comment would work.

Again at some point I think everyone has been informed that pointing what looks like a gun at police is a bad idea.

[savalez]

17. You are assuming that the victim thought it looked like a gun too.

To him it was a water nozzle. The police were the ones that thought it was a gun. There's some culpability there.

[Pavulon]

19. He was shit drunk and teh stupid over took him. That or he was to lazy to jump off the bridge

really any sane person would expect to get shot pointing that like a gun. Its a reasonable assumption. The fault is his and his alone.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/man-killed-by-long-beach-police-was-holding-a-water-nozzle.html

[savalez]

Why are you so angry at the victim?

Your language and tone make it hard to debate you. You've obviously got a bias or an underline issue about this. So, have it your way. But I feel this should be investigated.

[Pavulon]

24. For the same reason everyone else yells "murder" and "brutality"

in the face of common sense. Someone has to represent reality and rational thinking. His behavior clearly led to his death.

[No Elephants]

152. Non-answer. And the issue is not whether a man's behavior led to his death, but

whether it should have led to his death.

And what would you and your partner do if you had killed a man unnecessarily? Probably spin the facts some, I'm guessing.

Not saying that's what happened here, but I am saying, "It happens."

[Pavulon]

181. So the 911 callers (plural) they were in on it too?(nt)

[TexasObserver]

25. He is compelled to find police shootings justified.

They're always justified. The person shot is always a scum bag who had it coming.

[Pavulon]

27. That an adhom, a lie, and not proven out by any of my posts. I do support common sense

the cancer rate in falluja is not 4x chernobyl and if you point something that looks like a gun at the police they will shoot you.

It is quite simple.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/man-killed-by-long-beach-police-was-holding-a-water-nozzle.html

[TexasObserver]

38. You consistently demean shooting victims of overzealous police.

You speak disgustingly of everyone the police shoot and kill. You evidence the very attitude that most Democrats want to see removed from our police forces entirely.

[Pavulon]

40. that is not true, not backed up by my post history, and ad-hom

There is such a thing as abuse of power by the police. There are clearly bad shootings, murders. This case does not look like one of those events.

[TexasObserver]

45. You and I talk in every one of these killer police threads.

If you have ever taken the position it was a bad shooting, I haven't see it here. Perhaps you'll remind me of which time that was you said it was a bad police shooting, or perhaps someone else will remember.

I can't remember such a position by you, and that I'd be interested in hearing from you which time that was you called it a bad police shooting.

[Pavulon]

48. Your claim, you back it up. Its not true.(nt)

[No Elephants]

148. Texas is claiming a post by you supporting a victim of a police shooting

either does not exist or, if one does, he hasn't seen it. No back up needed or possible to support a statement of that kind.

TO's statement stands uncontradicted so far. If you wish to contradict it, you're the one who needs to back up YOUR claim. All you have to do is link Texas to a post in which you defend the victim, preferably one in which you do so as vigorously as you defend law enforcement in this thread.

[Pavulon]

196. watch and learn, outcome here will finalize this trivial

bullshit. if he pointed what looks like a gun at police, he killed himself. he had a kid, so not darwin, a shame to loose such a great example.

[JonLP24]

175. There was one in the Seattle area

where later even the police chief said the officer involved in the shooting was in the wrong. I don't remember much more than that and unsure when it happened so I can't find the links at the moment. He also mentioned the victim would get shot on German subway platforms so I'll look for that.

Oh here it is.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4523348&mesg_id=4523348

and this is where they determined the shooting wasn't justified.
http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/global/canada/Police-shooting-death-of-John-Williams-not-justified-106776618.html

[smiley]

71. why do you take the police's word?

They tend to try and cover their butt

[Pavulon]

73. For the same reason you assume they murdered the man in cold blood

and then conspired to concoct statements.

[smiley]

101. my reason was because the fraternal order of police....

have a habit of lying to protect one another, which is why I feel the police report is going to say the man raised what looked to be a gun.

What's your reasoning? Because the cops said "he raised what looked like a gun". This excuse is getting quite common and tiresome. It's a very common excuse on the Police Department's behalf anytime we hear about a police shooting.

That's my reasoning? What are yours again? :)

[Pavulon]

105. Broad brush have a history of being

again pointing something that looks like a gun at the police and getting shot is a growing trend and we must prevent this all to common way the police murder our fellow citizens for blood sport.

[smiley]

113. I have a history of using small brushes when I paint...

so I'm not really sure what you meant by your post title.

"Broad brush have a history of being"

but yeah - I think you're right.

"pointing something that looks like a gun at the police and getting shot is a growing trend,"

It is a growing and despicable trend. We are seeing this excuse far too often in the official police reports. IMO

"and we must prevent this all to common way the police murder our fellow citizens for blood sport".

We must prevent this at all costs. I would suggest much better training. Training that would allow police officers the ability to decipher between what looks like a gun and what actually is a gun. That may cut down on this rampant police bloodsport. But it seems most of our police force is trained in military tactics that teach kill first and ask questions later.

Wouldn't you agree? :)

Btw: Might I ask your profession kind sir?

[Pavulon]

115. I am a materials engineer specializing in custom PLC

systems for tooling systems. I design fabrication systems for companies that make jet engines and other civilian applications. I served in the Army national guard however training for combat MOSs did not involve determining if an enemy's rifle was airsoft or not. The military tactic would not have involved a shotgun or pistol. I assume you meant in combat and not an MP responding, in which yep this could get your ass shot too. Fuck, running the gate at certain places in the US will get you lit up.

I was also taught as a child not to point things that look like firearms at police officers.

No we must no prevent this at all costs. The cost is officers being shot by real guns while they ponder if they are real. You cannot and will never stop stupid fuckers from doing stupid shit. And this guy is dead because he wanted to die or he is really really stupid.

[smiley]

129. I can now see where your opinion comes from.

You're military and I am not.

You said:

"I served in the Army national guard however training for combat MOSs did not involve determining if an enemy's rifle was airsoft or not."

I have no idea what an "MOSs" is, or what is meant by airsoft.

You went on to say:

"he military tactic would not have involved a shotgun or pistol."

I didn't mention a specific military tactic, but the article posted in the OP says two shots were fired from a shotgun and 6 from pistols.

Okay...

"I assume you meant in combat and not an MP responding, in which yep this could get your ass shot too. Fuck, running the gate at certain places in the US will get you lit up."

I'm not sure what in my comments you are responding to here. But I think this statement of yours really highlights our personality differences.

Here we start to come together a bit:

"I was also taught as a child not to point things that look like firearms at police officers."

I too was taught, to not point firearms at anyone. Whether it be a real gun, bb gun, or water gun. But somehow as stupid kids, and young adults, we always ended up pointing the water guns at each other anyway, but that's beside point.( ... or is it?) I guess since the police never identified themselves and he's now dead, we'll never know if he was actually pointing it at them or not. I suppose he could've been so hopped up on goofballs he could've been pointing it at his imaginary friend. Of course he shouldn't have been pointing it at him either. :) But I digress.

You said:

"No we must no prevent this at all costs."

Ummmm... Your grammar might be off a bit here. I think you are agreeing with me here. But maybe not.

"The cost is officers being shot by real guns while they ponder if they are real".

I would've thought they might have tried identifying themselves first from a safe distance. Maybe say from around a building where the guy couldn't have shot them.

"You cannot and will never stop stupid fuckers from doing stupid shit."

You are absolutely correct and I can't tell you how glad I am that we can actually agree on something.

"And this guy is dead because he wanted to die or he is really really stupid."

Well there you go - getting all militaristic on me again. Just when I thought I could get along with you.

:)

[Pavulon]

134. Well my job

was not infantry. AN mos is a job, combat engineers have a number that corresponds to a set of tasks. I joined the NG to hand out water to people after hurricanes and other than Bosnia (KFOR) that is basically all I did. Learned how to drive a bulldozer, still piss my wife off renting them to do stuff around the house.

MP (military police) will shoot you for doing a similar thing. Act like you have a gun and they will believe you. There are certain places (installations) where running the guard house will result in your vehicle being fired on. That is a reality. Could be a car full of nuns, still getting shot.

Pistols are generally useless in a combat role and are not even issued to most people who participate in combat (at least in my day). Shotguns are not all that common but seem to be showing up more, from watching the news. Have no idea what people are issued these days.

The military generally used M4s (which were easier to get into vehicles like the ones I drove) and M16 rifles. They do not arrest people in general.

Police use defensive tools, shotguns and pistols are generally defensive. M4s, belt fed weapons, 40mm grenades, and other infantry tools (mortars, 105, gunship support) are not used by police, they are generally offensive.


At the end this really boils down to one comment. Being taught not to point a gun at anyone. I was taught the same. It is deadly serious and if he gave the impression he was pointing a gun they had to act. Could it have gone better in hindsight sure, but I bet those people did not show up to kill that man.

[No Elephants]

149. Another non-answer.

[Pavulon]

176. Why do I believe them? Because it makes sense when 2 people call in a man with a gun call

and the police respond. They then shoot someone with what appeared to be a gun. Soo, that is easier to believe than a grand conspiracy to kill a drunk guy.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

121. he demeans anyone and everyone not part of an authoritarian power structure

Herr Pauvlon feels much better with a strong daddy in control, I think.

[Pavulon]

123. Whatever my issues they are not manifested in constructing a well formed position

from facts published by two news sources. If people dont like when reality interferes with their agenda that is not my problem. You should delete that post. I believe it violates forum rules.

why make the mods clean it up?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

130. be my guest

you'll need to go snivelling to the moderators to get this one cleaned.

In any case, you somehow derive "facts" from "two news sources" quoting the cop who shot the guy? You're on solid ground there, Einstein.

[Pavulon]

135. Cops plural..

but hey its all a big conspiracy.

[xocet]

56. Actually...

He is angry at everybody: this victim, Julian Assange, Wikileaks, Bradley Manning, ad nauseum....

He always has to be a keyboard alpha male just so he can be absolutely uncompromising in all his viewpoints whether he knows the facts or not. It is best to just mentally ignore his posts, because any discussion with him will never be about anything other than maximum punishment or received just deserts. (26 such posts in this thread alone...) In the end, his arguments are summarized best by a quote from the movie Heavy Metal:

Hanover Fiste: "He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too good for him! He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!"

(Starting at about 3:07 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6_Q7gIaBE)

[Pavulon]

58. What an elegant adhom. and presented an elegant counerpoint to the argument

that it is really fucking stupid to point what looks like a gun at the police.

[xocet]

61. What is an adhom? Is that an English word? n/t

[Pavulon]

64. latin for unable to refute fact, so attack person presenting it..

Ad Hominem. See your previous post.

[xocet]

84. No, your statement is incorrect.

It is Latin for "to the man", and, as you wrote the second time, it is not one word: n.b., that to which you are referring in your post is the Ad Hominem Fallacy. Also, my question was sarcastic and rhetorical.

Further:
My post pointed out that you do not have the facts in hand. This is a true statement.
My post pointed out that you come down harshly on the victim of the moment. That is a true statement.
My conclusion is that your arguments are analogous to the testimony of the Fiste character from Heavy Metal - lots of emotionally-charged statements and minimal adduction of fact - although you seem to think that common sense is a fact and summarily judge the victim as being "stupid." This is a valid argument.

You yourself stated that you are angry at the victim and argue the way you do because others take a position that you do not like. That is an emotional reaction, not a rational one.

To wit:

savalez

Why are you so angry at the victim?
Your language and tone make it hard to debate you. You've obviously got a bias or an underline issue about this. So, have it your way. But I feel this should be investigated.

Pavulon

24. For the same reason everyone else yells "murder" and "brutality"
in the face of common sense. Someone has to represent reality and rational thinking. His behavior clearly led to his death.

Q.E.D.

[Pavulon]

87. Unless the poster is telepathic freud jeebus. he has no idea of my emotional position.

the post points out the silliness of that.

you post covered assange and my emotional state, which would probably get it removed if i bothered to alert it. But I am not going tail tucked to mod.

It does EVERYTHING but cover the topic of how stupid it is to point something that looks like a gun at the police.

You post speaks for its self.

Watch and learn, give this story a month and see where it is. BAL, .2x, multiple witnesses, and crime scene will support exactly what I posted, bet on it.

[xocet]

92. Go ahead...

My post addresses the character of your posts. If it somehow unfairly represents you and your posting behavior, by all means, go to the moderators. I encourage you not to hide behind the "going tail tucked to mod." statement. If I am incorrect in their judgment, then I apologize. However, I believe that my statements are justified by the preponderance of your posts.

This thread is full of the evidence that corroborates my statements. You apparently like summary judgment, harsh punishment and gloating over people's situations even if they are dead. There used to be a tradition not to speak ill of the dead. You clearly do not subscribe to that.

I will take the continued presence of my earlier post as its vindication. Get back to me when it is removed and I will definitely apologize.

[Pavulon]

106. I stand by my statement. teh stupid kills

i doubt anyone will care in a month when there are 3 witnesses under oath, two civilians who called it in as a gun call, his BAL is .2x, but hey thats my call.

Care to place you bet?

[No Elephants]

145. No, Latin for "to the man." And making an ad hominen argument or response does

not necessarily mean you cannot refute. It means simply that, for whatever reason, someone made a personal attack or response, rather than addressing an issue substantively.

In some cases, making an hominem response may just be a lot more tempting than addressing what the other party considers a solid argument.

Edited for typos.

[armodem08]

68. Ad hominem?

They're talking about you...That's, by definition, ad hominem. This isn't some philosophical argument about an abstract subject where you can just pull logical fallacies as trump cards.

[Pavulon]

70. Its against the rules and generally poor form..(nt)

[w4rma]

20. His alone? Wow. Would you say that if your 6 year old pointed a toy gun at a cop and was blown away

without warning? Or maybe a stick shaped somewhat similarly to a gun?

[Pavulon]

21. He was not six, but a fully formed, shit drunk moron.

the picture of what he posted is available. This would get you shot in germany or france as well, so dont feel special about the amerikkkan police.

Stupid happens, and it has consequences.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/man-killed-by-long-beach-police-was-holding-a-water-nozzle.html

[savalez]

28. There you go again. Lighten up.

[Pavulon]

29. ad hom, focus. every little kid knows you dont point you toy gun at the police

I guess he drank enough where this seemed like a great idea. Stupidity has consequences.

[TexasObserver]

35. Poor police work. Again. They shot him unnecessarily.

You clearly don't get it, and that's what troubles so many here. You think the only thing that matters is what a cop thinks of the situation. You think that if anyone does anything that a cop can construe as threatening, they deserve to be killed.

This country is not run by cops. Cops are employees whom we hire to conduct security. When they misbehave too much, we take away their licensure and they end up mall cops. When cops shoot citizens when it is unnecessary, it costs the governmental units money for civil claims. Those governmental units cannot afford bad cops who cost them civil lawsuits, so that's one way citizens can help rid the streets of cops with attitude problems.

[Pavulon]

37. Stupidity has a cost. It cost this man his life. Every person knows you dont point

what looks like a gun at the police. Until all the stupid drunk morons kill themselves this type of thing will happen from time to time.

If that person walked up to me in my car and pointed that at me I would consider it a lethal threat.

Common sense is dying, teh stupid is advancing.

[TexasObserver]

39. Stupid men who had badges and guns but no sense cost him his life.

[Pavulon]

41. I assume when you were a child someone told you not to point a toy gun at the police??

maybe that is not communicated anymore by parents. None the less an adult made a very bad decision, to either kill himself or to do something so monumentally stupid that the police would kill him.

He pointed that at an officer, he got shot. Very, very simple.

[TexasObserver]

43. You believe the police. I don't.

Most lie to make cases. They know what to say happened, and they claim that happened. This guy didn't hold anything up and point it at them. They thought he had a gun and without doing anything reasonable, they blasted him. They're murderers. They should be in prison, but unfortunately, they'll probably have to kill or maim others before society finally gets rid of them.

[Pavulon]

47. That post, is filled with assumptions about the police.

if he did not point anything at them and they are ALL lying than they would be criminally responsible.

However I will wait for the BAL from the person shot.

Why would the police just murder this guy, they were bored, needed paperwork? You realize someone called them there stating he had a gun? Are they responsible?

[tblue37]

59. One interesting comment posted on the article you linked, Pavulon:

<snip> Looks like a gun to me. If he was carrying it around with him, it certainly seems like he meant for it to appear like a gun. If he pointed it towards officers then he made to decision to have the police engage him with their weapons. <snip>

Frankly, Pavulon, I usually disagree with your defense of police behavior, but in this case I think you are right. That thing sure as heck does look like a gun. As the poster I just quoted pointed out, this guy wasn't watering the lawn. He was carrying around something that looked like a gun, and he was pointing it at the cops in the way one would point a gun to shoot it at someone. I wonder whether this wasn't maybe a case of suicide by cop after all.

[villager]

97. The police never i.d.'d themselves. He didn't know the cops were there.

n/t

[Pavulon]

108. Until he pointed something that looked like a gun at a man in Uniform?

read the report. They always identified themselves in my numerous interactions with them.

[villager]

112. Yes -- read: "...made no attempt to contact him before opening fire"

Long Beach police officers shot and killed a man Sunday when they apparently mistook a pistol-grip water nozzle he was holding, for a gun.

Now family members of the man, 35-year-old Douglas Zerby, are lashing out at the police, saying they made no attempt to contact him before opening fire.

Zerby was gunned down at an apartment building Sunday after two people reported a man with a gun sitting on a backyard porch landing, according to authorities.

Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said officers took positions to observe Zerby, who appeared intoxicated, and believed he had a "tiny six-shooter" as described by a male caller.

Zerby reportedly pointed the black metal-tipped nozzle at one of the officers, and two officers fired a handgun and a shotgun. A total of eight shots were fired - six from a handgun and two from shot guns, said McDonnell.

"They didn't say 'Put your hands up' or 'Freeze' or anything," Zerby's sister, Eden Marie Biele told The Associated Press Monday. "He was killed in cold blood."

<snip>

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20025657-504083.html

[Pavulon]

114. They dont have to.. Only factor that matters. He either did or did not

point what looked like a gun at an officer. This is not a tv show. If the answer is yes, he killed himself.

[villager]

118. Well, no, in the world of Pavulon they can shoot first! And are thereby off the hook!

n/t

[Pavulon]

120. no in reality police can shoot first. contrary to popular belief

if you point a gun or something that looks like a gun at a police officer, or another person for that matter, they can shoot.

Law is on the books.

[villager]

124. And no law that's on the books can *ever* be wrong!

thus, Pavulon applauds cops in the bushes springing out and blasting a drunk wavering on a front porch -- as he held a lawn nozzle.

[Pavulon]

126. Hey, think for a minute. You ever use a two handed grip to water the lawn?

I dont, it would be uncomfortable. You do use one to fire a pistol. The law is right and based on reasonable response and belief of endangerment. If it looked like a gun and the officer thought he was in danger (or another officer was in danger) he is clear to fire.

It is really that simple. 2 people called it in as a man with a gun to the police.

[villager]

128. Well, at least you're agreeing the guy was, essentially, ambushed.

It's possible these cops *won't* be charged with murder. But that doesn't make what they did right...

[Pavulon]

131. In an ambush everyone has guns and is trying to kill the other people..

if he pointed what looked like a gun at the police there, in the UK, on post in Germany, in Munich, in London (with armed police), in Paris, and in any place police respond to an armed man call he would be shot. Think you do this in a train station in germany you are going to get shot.

This is not an affront to reason, they did not stick a plunger up his ass, they shot him for pointing what looked like a gun at them. A darwin award act.

[villager]

133. "In an ambush everyone has guns and is trying to kill the other people."

Yes. And your cops succeeded. In killing a woozy drunk.

Oh wait: Not everyone had guns: The drunk was goofing around with a hose nozzle.

[Pavulon]

137. Proof that stupid kills, Darwin Award

for the guy who pointed what looks like a gun at a person with a real gun.

[villager]

143. Well, Pavulon, there are regimes where "the stupid deserve to be shot"

...would fit right in.

[No Elephants]

162. Beside the point. No one said they had to. Issue is, was there any reason rhey didn't?

"Put your hands up." Four words versus a young man's life.

Maybe they thought it too dangerous? But we don't know, one way or another.

[Pavulon]

182. Point a gun in real life the response is not verbal. Maybe on the tv

but the tv is not always right.. Cant act like you have a gun and point and expect anything other than being shot..

[No Elephants]

165. You read Replies 60 & 76. They said they had taken cover to observe him and did not make him aware

of their presence. So why are you being coy about it? And what in hell do your interactions with other cops in some context or other have to do with this incident?

[No Elephants]

157. Article says the police said they shot before making him aware of their presence.

(See Replies 60 and 76.)

If he was not yet aware of the presence of the cops, how on earth could he have been pointing a gun at the cops?

He was sitting on a backyard porch landing, pointing a water nozzle in various directions.

It was bad luck for him and those who love him that in one of the generals directions in which he happened to point, the police were hiding.

[Pavulon]

183. Reading comprehension fail. officer stated dead guy pointed what looked like a gun at officer

won darwin award in response for that action. Not all the police were hiding just the ones who shot him.

[No Elephants]

154. Anymore? Was that ever a standard instruction?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

146. How dare he water his lawn! And with booze in him!

:grr:

[No Elephants]

158. Even better: sitting on a back yard porch landing.

[Pavulon]

189. Hmm not what the facts seem to be..

Police officials said the object was actually a pistol-grip water nozzle, and when it was pointed directly at an officer, the officers opened fire, killing Zerby at the scene.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/family-of-slain-long-beach-man-outraged-over-police-shooting.html

they already have more lawyers than OJ..

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

199. Try a smidge of reading:

...the object was actually a pistol-grip water nozzle..."



Pun: You're wet*-behind-the-ears on logic.


*water

[No Elephants]

151. Do you know of any reason why the police would not warn him before killing him?

[villager]

96. Yes, well it was a sprinkler nozzle. Happy hunting.

n/t

[No Elephants]

150. He didn't point a gun at the police.

[Pavulon]

188. Sure he did... I think directly means something here...

Police officials said the object was actually a pistol-grip water nozzle, and when it was pointed directly at an officer, the officers opened fire, killing Zerby at the scene.

[Taverner]

174. OK. You've proven how much bigger your penis is to everyone.

Feel better?

[Pavulon]

186. so my cock is related to the position that pointing a gun looking object at police is stupid

Police officials said the object was actually a pistol-grip water nozzle, and when it was pointed directly at an officer, the officers opened fire, killing Zerby at the scene.

[Taverner]

192. Yes and IMO they overreacted. They murdered the guy.

Cops always like to make up excuses for being assholes with a power trip

But in the end, these were the bullies on the playground when they were kids. Nothing much has changed.

[ladjf]

2. The rich are committing larceny. The police are committing murder.

Great Country we've got here.

[glinda]

4. This is what I worry about. They are laying off cops all over. THey then hire militia thugs

back to replace them when they get funds again. Right? This way they have real heartless bastards to do real dirty work. This is just the beginning.

[Pavulon]

13. No this really is a darwin award or a person who did not want to drive to the GG Bridge

it is common knowledge that pointing something that looks like a gun at the police is an excellent way to get shot. His motives are as of yet unknown. Outcome predictable.

Not the first time or last time someone will die in this manner from suicide by cop or from being very stupid and sloppy drunk.

[Downwinder]

34. He was drunk and you want him to drive 400 miles.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Odd that Police Unions would stand for that

Is this something you know or something you worry about?

[Angry Dragon]

3. Some pretty poor training if they can not tell the difference

[SoapBox]

5. This was murder...

I read this story in the LA Times this morning. I felt sick to my stomach.

These two imbeciles, gunned down this guy. The stories told by them and the police leadership, don't match...and make no sense.

But...just like other similar killings by police...they will keep their jobs and get off free.

Outrageous.

[Pavulon]

8. When I was a wee lad, someone told me not to point toy guns at the police

as an adult why the fuck would you point something that looks like a gun, that you are holding like a gun, at a police officer and not expect to get shot.

So he either should have jumped off the bridge to save the person the trauma of killing him or he is a darwin winner.

Looks enough like a gun to get you shot around the world.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/man-killed-by-long-beach-police-was-holding-a-water-nozzle.html

[Tempest]

171. Why do you continue to lie?

He wasn't pointing the nozzle at the police.

HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEY WERE THERE BECAUSE THEY WERE HIDING WHILE OBSERVING HIM!

[Pavulon]

185. At the 2 officers that shot him or another officer, re-read

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/family-of-slain-long-beach-man-outraged-over-police-shooting.html

Police officials said the object was actually a pistol-grip water nozzle, and when it was pointed directly at an officer, the officers opened fire, killing Zerby at the scene.

9 lawyers called..

[SoapBox]

6. P.S...the number of shots and the guns used was shocking...

[RamboLiberal]

90. 2 shots from a shotgun and 6 from pistol

Not that excessive.

[knoxy]

117. More were shot.

The building is filled with bullet holes.

He was HIT with 8 shots total - two from a shotgun.

[Pavulon]

7. Here is what he pointed at the police, any one live there at 445 here it is dusk Darwin.

why would you use a tho handed isometric grip to point a water sprayer? That will get you shot in Germany, by UK armed police, and by pretty much any armed force world wide.

He is either a suicide or a darwin award winner.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/man-killed-by-long-beach-police-was-holding-a-water-nozzle.html

[savalez]

14. So what are you saying?

That the victim was negligent for buying a water nozzle that looks like a gun? That's silly.

[Pavulon]

16. Nope, for pointing it. He killed himself when he did that.

same if he points a cell phone that looks like a gun or simply points a real gun at the police. They dont have to stand around and wait for him to start shooting like on tv.

This story outlines suicide by cop or darwin award level stupidity.

[w4rma]

22. How do you know he even noticed the cops when he was waving it towards them?

They made no attempt to identify themselves, apparently.

[Pavulon]

32. Officer states he pointed object at an officer.

held it like a gun. That behavior is stupid and will get you killed here and in shangri la. Suicide by cop or pure darwin award.

[w4rma]

46. Interesting. So how do you defend the seven hour wait that the cops put his family through?

"Zerby's sister said police made the family wait seven hours before confirming that her brother was the man who had been killed, and said that her family is considering legal action."

[Pavulon]

50. Because "were really sorry we told you this person was dead when it was really

your neighbor" is a bad thing. Again, this is a simple problem. Don't point what looks like a gun at a police officer.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

127. yes, but what if the officer is a lying fuck?

What weight do you give to the possibility that the officer was just another lying sack of shit cop who lied in order to stay out of trouble? You're never without an answer. So give me an answer that isn't insane on its face.

I know who you are. I know what you are.

[Pavulon]

138. All of the officers and the two people who are on tape calling in man with a gun calls to 911

yep they are all in a conspiracy to kill this man, he just knew to much.

[No Elephants]

167. Did you see an official police report?

[Politicalboi]

72. Man my fingers "look" like a gun

If I point it at the police and they shoot me I guess I get what i deserve. Are you a cop? These morons should face jail time for what they did. I guess the police are telling the truth about pointing it at them. They must be telling the truth, they're cops. :sarcasm:

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to chop my fingers off so's not to get killed by the pigs if I happen to point my finger at them by mistake. I'm glad you warned me of the dangers.

[Pavulon]

74. Good luck with that. The "Pigs" have it in for ya man..

and no I'm a materials engineer, design parts and procedures to make aforementioned parts to go in jet engines..

[sulphurdunn]

31. Yea.

It would probably have been asking the officers to assume to great a personal risk for one of them to have said something from a relatively safe distance like "excuse me Sir, but I'm a Long Beach police officer, my partner and I have weapons trained on you. I'd like for you to drop whatever is in your hand RIGHT NOW! stand up, step back, lay down and put your hands behind your head."

But they didn't do that, did they? It sounds like they didn't even wait for backup. They just went in blazing. Bam! bam! bam! bam! bam! bam! bam! blam! Then they cuff the guy after they fill him full of lead and about cut him in two with a shotgun blast. By the way, this is the US not the UK or Germany and those guys are cops not combat soldiers.

[Pavulon]

36. Well if you see an officer in Germany with an MP5 in a train station or airport

dont act like you have a gun and then point something. Odds are you get shot there too.

Rather than put in on the officer, maybe if the person had not pointed what looked like a gun at the police he would be polishing off his 10th beer right now in peace.

[quakerboy]

102. Lets look at that picture

Police are trained to be observant, as I understand it. That looks about as much like a "six shooter" as tin foil looks like saran wrap. Anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with firearms should easily be able to tell the difference. When was the last time you saw a gun with a copper Barrel, or one that had a rounded taper toward the muzzle?

But maybe they couldn't see that, you might argue, that they were too far back. It was 4:40, which tells me there was still light, so visibility should have been OK. And they were close enough for him to see them and to point at them, in an area described as a "courtyard". They were close enough to start to fire, which I assume they are trained not to do if they are a great distance off, as even a trained shot loses accuracy with a pistol at some point. I assume police shotguns are armed with slugs? Otherwise, they must have been even closer, or it would be not so safe to fire one at any real distance.

[Pavulon]

107. When I looked and an IDPA ESP gun with an aftermarked BBL.

police generally use buckshot that is lethal to around 70 yards and I assume the police did not conspire to murder this man.

My position is he was drunk and a titanic fucking moron or used them to kill himself.

Bet I'm right in the end.

[sulphurdunn]

173. You don't get it do you?

I like most of the cops I know. I don't want them placed in danger. That's why cops don't have anymore right to kill people because they feel threatened than you or I do. This time it was a garden hose nozzle, next time it could be some guy working on his car who gets blown away because he has a shiny object in his hand that looked like a gun and turned out to be a wrench, or maybe he was just belligerent, wouldn't lay down and walked toward the cops empty handed.

If this shit continues it won't be much longer before the cops will be afraid to even ride around in marked cars wearing uniforms because it will be the public who starts shooting first and asking questions later.

[Pavulon]

177. Just wait and see. TIme will bear this out. He acted like he had a gun, there was no hose attached

and he is responsible for his death. Taking bets.

[quakerboy]

193. I bet the official report says you are right

As to who is right by objective truth, that seems far less certain. But I am sure, if it comes up again, you will trumpet the official finding that you were right.

In the mean time... I find myself confused. Are you asserting that this:

Looks like this
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0147e0a9489b970b-pi

Or Perhaps these
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:_SNeLQS-P56ZLM:&t=1,
Look like http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0147e0a9489b970b-pi this to you?

Given anything short being melted down in a vat of copper and reforged, I do not see how any modification on one of those guns gets you something looking anything like the water nozzle in question to a trained police officer with good visibility.

Stupid, yes. Drunk, yes. Suicidal... who knows. questionable in such a way that it would be worthy of a truly independent investigation... Well, I would say that just about any killing is worthy of that no matter the circumstances.

[Tempest]

172. Once again you're lying

How can you knowingly point something at someone YOU DON'T KNOW IS THERE???

[Pavulon]

178. I'm lying, by jove you have me

there were officers he could see, to point a gun at, and people he could not see. the ones who shot him.

[LiberalFighter]

9. Was it attached to a water hose?

[Pavulon]

11. Probably not, I dont water my lawn using an Isometric Grip.

ie you dont hold a hose nozzle like a glock. Darwin or suicide by cop.

[Boxerfan]

23. Disgusting to say the least...Your opinion is no possible way the police made any mistake

Is that your only point of view?

I think it was murder...
Thats fairly obvious. He was not holding a gun and if you have something in your hand & turn-in reaction to someone/tjing-are you pointing it at them & then deserve to be shot???
Sad you are probably a cop & make such decisions with no remorse-Sad.

[Pavulon]

26. No its a straight Darwin Award. You point that at an armed officer in Germany or the UK

you are just as dead. Stupid has consequences, they are clearly on display in this case.

[Boxerfan]

30. You da MAN!!

Gotta take no chances with those gardeners!

[Pavulon]

33. I have never seen anyone use a two handed grip on a water nozzle

pretty strange. He suicided or darwined. thats my bet, and time will back it up.

[NeoConsSuck]

103. A jury will make a decison

there will definitely be a civil suit.

[Pavulon]

109. There always is.. Loose loose, city has to defend it

either way. That means the tax payers fund a stupid person's relatives. There certainly will be no criminal trial based on the news so far.

[lefty2000]

42. Reality Doesn't Matter?

The reality is, he was unarmed. He was sitting on a backyard landing. He should not have been shot to death.

Isn't there anything we can learn from such incidents to prevent their recurrence? Isn't that what the police should be concerned with? Their job is to protect the innocent, not to kill those who make a mistake. If you say they were right in this instance, then you are saying there is no solution.

[Pavulon]

44. Pointing what looks like a gun at a police officer is a mistake

like playing chicken with an 18wheeler in a smart car.. Reality is we are responsible for our behavior. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, the outcome here is just what reality offers.

Its a darwin award event.

[dbmk]

62. And if they haven't identified themselves as such?

And asked him to put the (apparent) gun down - from a safe position?

Whose fault is it then?

As far as I can ascertain the facts you effectively have a drunk guy taking a gun grip on a - hold it - gun gripped water nozzle and waving it around.

And then he was shot.

No warning, no identification, no request to put it down.

And its still his own fault for getting shot?

Getting drunk at playing with gungripped water nozzles is just asking for it.

[Pavulon]

66. If they were wearing a uniform and he pointed what looks like a gun, well unlike on tv

they had cause to shoot him. From the number of guns it looks like he pointed at an officer he saw and was shot by officers from cover.

[savalez]

49. Well said lefty2000

This would have been a good case for a non-lethal weapon. Or at the very least a loud, "Drop your weapon!"

[Pavulon]

52. They should have shot the gun out of his hand...

it would be a good case for dont do something so stupid and then you will still be alive. No one takes responsible for their own stupid (dead guy, not you), it is pandemic.

[savalez]

54. What gun?

Oh yeah, the one the police MISTAKENLY thought he had. Give it a rest dude.

[Pavulon]

57. Oh, they should have had precrime come over and tell him not to get shithammered

and point what looks like a gun at the police..

[HardWorkingDem]

55. Many sincere police have been trying for years....however...

too often people who cast wild accusations such as claims of "murder" have complete hindsight that those responding to these types of things do not.

I can only imagine the response if this were some type of firearm and he had fired a shot that struck a young child. People would be screaming why didn't the police do something.

There are so many different firearms in this world that look strange and with lighting conditions and distance, these contraption probably looked like a firearm.

But I guess with the opinions here, it must be best to let a police officer to be fired upon before taking action.

It must be a heckuva thing to be a perfect person.

[savalez]

80. Respectfully I have some issues with your post.

1) Justifying a shooting because a phantom child "could" have gotten shot is a weak defense. If it had any merit it would have been used in every police shooting in history.

2) Wanting the event investigated is perfectly reasonable. The officer's own department has put them on leave so that they can scrutinize the event. Especially since there was no gun. I am sure you would also want the same treatment if your son, brother or father was the victim. Right? Or would you immediately consider it appropriate that they were killed because they had a water nozzle in their hand?

3) How does immediately considering the shooting justified make someone any better than those who feel it was murder?

4) Obviously your "perfection" comment was meant as in insult but just imagine the officer saying, "Just shot an unarmed guy, oh well, nobody's perfect." It ain't that simple. IMO the Officer's training and ability to make split-second life-altering decisions are now in question.

[HardWorkingDem]

104. That's fine....

1) I used the "child" aspect because police officers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. It was not meant to be a defense but to point out to many here, whatever would have happened would not have pleased people and if there had been a different result, like a guy getting a shot off that struck an innocent bystander, people here would have been commenting about that.

2) I have no complaints about a thorough investigation, nor did I make any assertions otherwise. I don't know where you jumped to that conclusion.

3) People here need to learn what the proper legal definitions of criminal offenses are. It is as simple as that. Too often people use inflammatory words in an incorrect manner to make a point here.

4) My use of the word perfect was intended to illustrate how many, many people who criticize these incidents often do so with either more information not known at the time or by use of a process that is far removed from the reality of the event. Were YOU there for this incident? How do YOU know what went through the heads of all of those involved? Do YOU know what each involved did prior to the shooting? I can give you many additions involving both the subject and the police that are probably relevant to the decisions made (though really, are many going to believe the "official" account one way or another? I doubt it).

[valerief]

51. Guns don't kill people. Assholes with guns kill people. nt

[Pavulon]

53. Tear down the golden gate bridge, people use it to kill themselves

all the time. This was suicide by cop, or epic stupid.

[huskerlaw]

60. Here's the problem...

"The officers had a position of cover and were observing the suspect while other officers were en route," said Sgt. Dina Zapalski, a spokeswoman for the Long Beach Police Department.
Zapalski said Douglas Zerby had been sitting on a stoop playing with what appeared to be a weapon and pointing it at objects as if it were a gun. He extended his arms and pointed in the direction of an officer. Police said they did not have time to make their presence known or to tell Zerby to drop the weapon before opening fire because they believed he was a threat."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-long-beach-shooting-20101214,0,2734214.story

a) Did he point it AT an officer or IN THE DIRECTION OF an officer? That's a BIG difference.
b) If the police were in "a position of cover" and "didn't have time to make their presence known" how could the guy have been pointing the gun AT an officer? Presumably, he didn't know there was an officer there.
c) They were observing the suspect while other officers were en route, but they didn't have time to "make their presence known"? Hmmm.

Now, that water nozzle does look like a gun, and the drunk guy was not very intelligent for waving it around like it was a gun. But the issues above sure don't make the cops look good.

*edited for spelling mistake

[Pavulon]

63. More than one officer..

reads to me from types of weapons that at least 2 shooters were involved.

Officers were behind cover/concealment, additional officers moved in the clear. Suspect pointed what looks like a gun at the officers he saw (motive unknown) officers he did not see fired.

If he pointed it an officer he killed himself on purpose or with teh stupid.

[huskerlaw]

65. That's not what this article says

it says he pointed it "in the direction of an officer". It also says that the additional officers were en route, not on scene.

[Pavulon]

69. Well unless that officer had a handgun and shotgun firing at the same time

you missed something. He was shot by at least TWO men.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20025657-504083.html

[huskerlaw]

76. No, I'm not disputing that

there was more than one officer on scene. I'm disputing your claim that "additional officers moved in the clear".

According to this article this is the situation:
1. Two officers respond to the 911 call.
2. Both officers are in a position of cover.
3. Victim points the water nozzle "in the direction of an officer"
4. Victim is shot multiple times by multiple weapons. (Multiple meaning at least 2)
5. Back up is "en route" not on scene.

So, you have two officers, in cover. The victim points a gun "in the direction" of officers who have not made their presence known. Can you say that the victim is pointing it AT the officer if he doesn't know the officer is there? Also, you have officers claiming that they didn't have time to make their presence known, but they have had time to take cover and call back up. Sketchy.

[Pavulon]

77. Without their report we are relying on press accounts..

have heard several versions of this story, latimes differs from cbs. It happens.

But without the official statements from the officers there is no way to know who he pointed the object at.

The common sense position is that the officers shot from cover when another (some) officer was flagged with what looks like a weapon.

barring criminal act, thats how it looks.

[huskerlaw]

78. Thank you for making my point.

You are all up and down this thread saying that the guy deserved it and it's his fault. Reality is, at this point, NOBODY KNOWS who's at fault. YOU included. As for your "common sense" position...it involves a third mystery officer, which isn't backed up by any information that we have at this point. In fact, it's refuted by ALL of the information we have at this point.

So thank you for admitting that you are talking out of your ass, because as you say, "without the official statements from the officers there is no way to know who he pointed the object at."

My work here is done.

[Pavulon]

82. No you can only be 99% sure this moron killed himself. Note the comment about criminal conspiracy

by the police. Unless you believe they conspired to randomly murder this man I am using the facts from MULTIPLE sources to form an opinion that will most probably be the reality of this.

There is no way to know the NAME of the officer, 1, 2,3, or 7. The fact he is all full of buckshot an handgun rounds is a pretty good indication he pointed at an officer.

Thanks for coming out.

[No Elephants]

159. My reaction was almost identical to yours.

[No Elephants]

156. Press accounts were enough for you to say over and over that this guy asked for it.

Now, you can't even admit a possibility that he never did point even a water hose nozzle at a cop, only at the air over his own back yard. You cnn't even say that, if the article is accurate, just maybe he did not deserve to die.


"The common sense position is that the officers shot from cover when another (some) officer was flagged with what looks like a weapon"

Really? Whose common sense? What common sense? Saying it makes it so?

Common sense also says being a cop is in general a scary thing and sometimes scared people "jump the gun."

[Pavulon]

179. It possible he had a water hose hanging out his ass communicating with mars

common 3rd grade sense is you dont point what looks like a gun at the police. Sure there could be a grand conspiracy by the police where they are all lying, its possible. Its possible it was really a cia hit. Possible is a funny word.

But its PROBABLE that the incident happened just like it reads. Suicide by cop or suicide by stupid.

[AtheistCrusader]

81. Article isn't the be-all end all of an inquest.

I'd be willing to guess, the officers were observing him from CONCEALMENT, not COVER.

[Pavulon]

83. Given his weapon an umbrella would be cover.. In retrospect

the cover concealment comment is kinda moot. Point was it reads like he pointed at an officer he could see and was shot by an officer(s) he did not see.

[huskerlaw]

86. I never claimed that it was.

My point is that there are multiple questions left to be answered before anyone can claim to know who was at fault and who wasn't.

The person that's going up and down this thread claiming to know who was at fault is unable to answer any of the questions I raised. That's not stopping him/her, but it sure is making him/her look like an idiot.

[armodem08]

75. +1 Well put. n/t

[killbotfactory]

94. The officers was in cover, and didn't identify themselves?

Jesus fucking christ. I doubt the guy even knew who it was, or if anyone was there. He got killed for goofing around on his back porch with a goddamned water nozzle.

[Pavulon]

110. Based on the types of holes poked. There were more than one officers

involved. Thats an assumption not supported by statements. He pointed something at an officer, maybe he would need to SEE him to do that? He got killed for being drunk and stupid. Grade school, dont point things that look like guns at the police.

I'm sure they all drove over there to murder this man, because that's their job. to murder people.

[smiley]

67. the cops say he pointed it at them before they shot.

well that explains everything. We can always trust that what the police say is true.

... yeah right.

[Mortos]

79. Read the story and look at the picture.

That water nozzle looks like a gun.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0147e0a9489b970b-pi

Officers had two separate calls from his neighbors reporting a man with a gun. Two officers arrive (standard minimum protocol) and witness an intoxicated appearing man outside holding what appears to be a gun apparently confirming the initial callers complaints. The man took a shooting stance with a shooters two handed grip and pointed the object at police. They are under no obligation to shout freeze or drop it or anything else. If it had been a gun and the man had fired it without a police response and hit a child or innocent bystander, cop haters would be calling these officers pussies for waiting too long. This, in my opinion, was a justified shooting.

Until one of you has to respond to a "man with a gun" call, don't presume that you know better how to act than those who do.

We don't know the man's motivation. I would guess this was not his first run in with police and it does appear to be a case of "suicide by cop." Rationale people don't act this way and unfortunately for this man, his actions resulted in his death.

[Pavulon]

85. No its a criminal conspiracy by the police hit squat to kill the citizens

of amerikkka while they get drunk and point nozzles, i mean its a trend man.. Reality is the facts will support common sense here. Common sense is what you posted.

[Mortos]

88. Along that same line of logic

Can anyone explain why officers, who have statistically probably never shot anyone, would suddenly decide to execute a man they didn't know and expose themselves to civil and criminal liability, be suspended from their jobs for several months to years and face the psychological damage of having killed someone?

Many seem to think that cops are holed up in the local donut shop itching to get out and kill or beat the crap out of some innocent person. It's a ridiculous precept.

[azureblue]

89. Two nervous, untrained cops

What we have here is a watering device that is shaped like a pistol. As are many air powered tools. To a person who is familiar with firearms, in a "stance" with at least the top of the devise exposed, it does not look at all like a pistol - it look more like some worn out prop from a Flash Gordon movie. Well, for one thing, I can't tell you of any modern pistols with brass barrels.

So now we can figure out what happened: This drunk is outside playing watergun cowboy (I guess kind of like some of did as kids of a summer day), and the neighbors get upset and call the cops. Two arrive and hide in the bushes to check out what is going on. While hiding, they decide to call back up. They drunk is pointing his watergun around, happens to point it where the cops are hiding (he did not see they were there), and cops, not having the common sense to look and see if that thing in his hand really was a pistol or not, pop up and kill him. So we have two cops, with no firearm ID training and no sense, getting jumpy and shooting somebody.

[RamboLiberal]

91. You don't have a clue as to their training

Dusk near dark, probably a bit of difference, that nozzle could very well look like a gun.

[Mortos]

95. You figured it out.

I am amazed that you can tell from the tiny bit of information in the article and no reference to how old or how long the officers have been employed or what type of training aside from the year or so required by most departments to even reach probationary status.

Chief McDonnell said the officers took positions to observe Mr Zerby, who appeared intoxicated. They believed he had a gun as described by the callers, but focused on setting up containment of the area rather than contacting him, he said.

The officers requested other officers, a helicopter, a police dogs team and a mental evaluation team, the chief said


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338571/Douglas-Zerby-shot-dead-police-holding-GARDEN-HOSE-nozzle-gun-chief-admits.html#ixzz188fAoevS

Containing an armed suspect within a perimeter and getting additional units without confronting him is also indicates these officers were following protocol, were well trained and not itching to just kill someone that day. Again, his actions led to his death. You admit the device is shaped like a pistol. Two independent witnesses were concerned enough about his behavior and what he was holding to call 911 and report a man with a gun. Officers stated he was holding it like a pistol and making noises with it consistent with the mechanical noises of a gun I would assume clicking sounds like the cocking of a pistol.

I have been a part of this same scenario played out dozens of times with intoxicated, mentally ill or high individuals either having or pretending to have a weapon. So far, in 4 years, every scenario has been resolved peacefully...even the one where an officer was shot in the shoulder by a mentally ill subject when the officer knocked on the door to check his welfare. Something that same officer had done dozens of times with the same, previously non-violent, citizen.


Here are some links to some homemade pistols which are similar in appearance to the nozzle.



http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRG5l9rUrDl5mq1MOhu5jNuHaP9-ckT_IQgE4HWKs_z0Gljtv7V7g

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5mv_zpV6RA5tqPOZTErRVQUx1N0x4aAC4RGLOYlymdJl573Gt



http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQBx9J18_FrobX0K4hi4ZPpHcf-VZ54YHCIR0urYfXfLxym9Ed9



You and others here have the benefit of hindsight and knowing most of the facts. Those responding officers knew there were 2 reports of a man with a gun acting strange. When they arrived, what they saw confirmed the initial reports. They apparently followed policy and acted when the reportedly armed man made a move perceived as deadly towards one of the officers. The case will be tried in civil court and undergo departmental review where more evidence will be introduced and weighed. Maybe they will call you as an expert witness since you intuitively know so much about these particular officers and this particular case.

[knoxy]

119. He had a clean record.

A drinking problem - but a clean record.

[Pavulon]

125. Again, he either pointed what looks like a gun at the police or he did not.

if he did, he gets a darwin award. If not the police are lying on record and maybe committing perjury. It is really that cut and dried.

Record, nice guy, whatever, you dont get to do what he did and not get a response based on your record.

[Skip Intro]

93. Tragic mistake.

------------
However, police officials say Zerby's behavior prompted the officers' response.

"As the subject was in a seated position, he used a two-handed pistol-grip hold on an object with his arms fully extended," McDonnell said. "Somebody that is impaired and waving what appears to witnesses and police to be a handgun. That's what the officers were faced with."
------------

Sad and tragic, but I can't fault the police for taking what appeared to be appropriate action. It isn't smart to point anything at a police officer, or anyone else.

[Occulus]

98. Two questions.

1) Was the victim aware that he was being observed by anyone?

2) At any time, did the police present announce themselves?

If the answer to those questions is "no", the shooting was not justified.

[Skip Intro]

99. I take it your point is that there is much unkown about this situation, and that there are certainly

two sides to the story.

From what was reported, if actually true, I can't fault the police for acting in a manner that appeared at the time to be self-defense.

[Mortos]

100. To answer your questions

1. It's irrelevant whether or not he knew he was being observed. His actions were bizarre enough for two different people to call for police response. He was in a public place outside in a populated area. He should have known he was being observed by at least the neighbors in the apartment complex.

2. It's irrelevant and could potentially escalate the situation. The police don't announce themselves in situations like this. When approaching a potentially armed suspect who is intoxicated in a highly populated area (apartment complex)with minimal backup, police routinely and by training observe the situation to determine the best response prior to letting the suspect know they are there. This provides an opportunity to evaluate the situation and decide what resources would best be utilized (these officers apparently did just that). When an apparently armed suspect takes a shooting stance in an apartment complex towards an armed officer, the resulting death of the suspect is what will happen most of the time.

It is an unfortunate situation for all involved parties but there doesn't appear to be any malice or inappropriate action on the part of the officers involved.

Your two question determination of whether or not the shooting was valid indicate your lack of legal knowledge on the use of deadly force. Neither of the two factors you list are pre-requisites for the lawful application of deadly force.

[knoxy]

116. You have your facts wrong.

It was not an apartment complex. It was a duplex.

Yes, it's a very populated area - which is why it was problematic for the LBPD to hose the place with bullets. There are bullets ALL OVER that building.

Yes, it's unfortunate, but it's especially unfortunate that the cops gave no concern for the multitude of individuals within a few feet of where they were shooting.

The police in the Belmont Shore area are and have always been trigger happy. This is not the first occurrence of police brutality there. The police harass folks in the area for drinking a glass of wine on their stoop.

I'm absolutely not surprised this happened. There are many things the police could have done differently. Especially given how densely populated the area is. The only thing I'm surprised at here is that there was just one fatality as the result of their actions...

[Pavulon]

122. I guess they did not have a rifle. Blame the drunk moron who killed himself

and triggered this mess. Shotguns fan out shots. If anyone else injured? no. Police will pay for damages.

[knoxy]

Double post

Double post.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

111. One question, it is the only one that matters

did he point something that looks like a gun at a uniformed police officer. If yes, darwin award, move on.

If no, they ALL get indicted for lying on official statements / perjury.

That is the ONLY factor, all else is immaterial.

[petronius]

136. It's not that simple at all. Even if he did point the object at the police, it's still

appropriate to question the officer's conduct. If they failed to adequately observe him to see if it was or was not a weapon, decided not to attempt to contact him, surprised him and then opened fire, I'd say there's a very good chance that they fucked up as badly as Mr. Zerby did. You seem intent on making this an A or B situation; it seems vastly more likely that it's A and B...

[Pavulon]

139. If he pointed what looks like a gun at a uniformed officer

the response is pretty much what you would expect here, in France, Germany, or wherever the have armed police.

[petronius]

141. Granting all of that, it is still valid - and in this case I'd say necessary - to

question whether the police made the correct decisions in the minutes leading up to the shooting. If their actions made an unnecessary shooting more likely, then they share the blame. And, based on the descriptions so far, I'd say that is probably the case...

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

161. you mean it is what YOU would expect, apparently

the rest of us expect our police to act with intelligence, restraint and dignity.

[No Elephants]

166. Not so. If no they may well get away with lying since the only witnesses are cops and a dead guy.

But I don't see where cops are lying.

Stories so far say he pointed something in their direction before they made him aware t5hey were there.

[Pavulon]

180. so you assume they are lying, why?

did they kill that man in reno, just to watch him die (and do paperwork)?

[itsrobert]

132. Normally, I take the cops side in these cases, but

the LBPD story sounds like a cover-up.

[Pavulon]

140. and the 2 911 calls on man with a gun, on tape..

those part of a vast conspiracy to kill a drunk moron darwin award winner?

[itsrobert]

142. Have you listened to the full tapes?

The callers seem unsure of what they are reporting. One said he really didn't know much about guns.

[Mortos]

144. Where can we listen to the tapes?

[knoxy]

169. LBPost or LBReport

dot com.

They should have the 911 call by now.

I believe there is just one call (I've heard of 2, but have only heard one).

There are also links to the press conference where the Police Chief said several things that will most likely cost him his job.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

160. Pav doesn't care about what is true or decent

the only thing he has done on this thread is defend killers. I am always astounded at how many sycophantic lapdogs can be found right here on DU. Hose nozzle in your backyard after a few beers? You deserve to be shot like a dog by authority.

[Pavulon]

184. cause i'm a bad bad man. hide your wives, hide your kids....(nt)

[Prometheus Bound]

191. May I quote you?

[Pavulon]

197. yes run and tell that, run and tell that...(nt)

[xor]

147. Why were the police called anyway? Is it illegal to site in your backyard with a gun?

Unless guns are illegal to own or the guy was shooting (which is highly unlikely since it was a sprinkler), I don't get why the police were called... That being said, the guy really shouldn't have pointed an object that looks like a gun at people with real guns (cops or not)

[slackmaster]

153. No, it's not illegal to display a firearm in California if you are on your own property

As long as you aren't unlawfully threatening someone with it.

Good question, thanks for asking.

[knoxy]

168. They were called

because the fella that shared the duplex with the deceased's best friend didn't know who he was - and thought the he had a gun. If you hear the 911 call, it wasn't panicked - it was a general "you might want to come check this out" call. Frankly, they happen often in the Shore. Neighbors live in close proximity and sometimes you see some weird stuff. It's a heavy college town - lots of partying and drinking. It's very well known for this.

I don't blame the neighbor for calling if he thought something was suspicious. He must feel horrible about what happened though...

[Pavulon]

190. Twice, they were called by TWO people. Not just one..

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/family-of-slain-long-beach-man-outraged-over-police-shooting.html

pointed a gun directly at police, bad idea.

[Bette Noir]

155. Background: nozzles on hose-ends are required by law, here.

It's illegal to water one's yard by walking around with a hose that does not have a nozzle on the end.

I'm moving to Oregon next week. There, water comes out of the sky, and cops don't randomly shoot people.

[knoxy]

164. The talk in LBC

is that folks can't water their lawn anymore. They already couldn't drink a glass of wine on their porch - now they can't water their lawns.

I've recently left the Shore. I'm glad I did.

[No Elephants]

170. The father of an 8 year old who did not want to drive home drunk, so he went to his friend's place .

and waited for his friend to get home. He was probably bored and started fooling around with a nozzle. So sad.

I've seen police brutality up close, literally inches away, by 3 cops I had worked with every day and liked very much. They were always downright courtly and paternal to me, even though only one of them was appreciably older than I. I was shocked when I observed the brutality.

This, however, does not seem to be in that same category. Still, why not use a taser, at least?

[Pavulon]

187. no darwin award then... dont point what looks like a gun at police, your mileage may vary

Police officials said the object was actually a pistol-grip water nozzle, and when it was pointed directly at an officer, the officers opened fire, killing Zerby at the scene.

pretty sure in the lethal force continuum you dont use nonlethal against lethal force. Because they thought he had a gun is why no tazer was used.

[johnroshan]

194. You never addressed this question.

Was the man aware of the presence of cops? The cops didn't announce themselves. The article only mentions that he pointed the nozzle in the "direction" of where the other cops were on route. If that is true, there is no way the man could've known that he was in fact pointing the nozzle at someone.

I don't think the cops had any malicious intent to kill this dude. Its just a case of bad training that ended up in the death of an American. With great powers (such as being allowed to wield weapons in public and shoot at their discretion) comes great responsibility.

[Pavulon]

195. The statement is clear, directly pointed

so they lied or he killed himself, end story.

dont points things that look like guns at police, 4th grade.

[johnroshan]

198. I think you're mistaken.

From LATimes.

Sgt. Dina Zapalski : "Douglas Zerby had been sitting on a stoop playing with what appeared to be a weapon and pointing it at objects as if it were a gun. He extended his arms and pointed in the direction of an officer."

This statement from the police suggests that he was simply pointing the nozzle at various objects. He probably had no idea that the cops were there.

"dont points things that look like guns at police, 4th grade."

Again, you're assuming he knew that he was pointing the nozzle at a policeman, much less an unannounced, concealed policeman. As fas as I know, human beings don't have biological radar that detects the presence of hidden people.

Care to shine some light?

[crim son]

200. The stupid has crept into every aspect of American society,

and our system of law enforcement is not immune. When it is no longer safe to hold a spray nozzle in public something is very wrong, no matter in what high regard one holds our police officers.

[Prometheus Bound]

201. Is there an award for the world's dumbest police officers?

If so, we have definite winners.