U.S. Briefs Allies on New Documents Leak: WikiLeaks (Documents Show Turkey Helped al-Qaeda in Iraq)

[Hissyspit]

Source: Reuters

U.S. briefs allies on new documents leak: WikiLeaks

WASHINGTON | Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:39pm EST

(Reuters) - The United States has briefed its allies Britain, Australia, Canada, Denmark and Norway ahead of the expected new release of classified U.S. documents, WikiLeaks said on Thursday, citing local press reports. The whistle-blowing website said by Twitter that American diplomats briefed government officials in the five nations in advance of the release expected in the next few days.

The next release is expected to include thousands of diplomatic cables reporting corruption allegations against politicians in Russia, Afghanistan and other Central Asian nations, sources familiar with the State Department cables held by WikiLeaks told Reuters on Wednesday.

- snip -

Some governments appear to be bracing for the impact of the revelations.

According to the London-based daily al-Hayat, the WikiLeaks release includes documents that show Turkey has helped al-Qaeda in Iraq - and that the United States has supported the PKK, a Kurdish rebel organization that has been waging a separatist war against Turkey since 1984, the Washington Post reported.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AP06Z20101126

[Pavulon]

1. Bradley strikes again. (nt)

[Pale Blue Dot]

18. Good. He's a hero. nt

[Pavulon]

30. He will die in florence along with the other heros

pollard and the una bomber. he is an asshole that will end up costing us a shitload of money to fix all the problems his theft created.

You really think anything of merit will come from this? please.

[Pale Blue Dot]

34. Wow. You have a lot of anger.

There is always merit in knowing the truth. It's long past time the lies were exposed, and we start living based on reality and not some fantasy of how the world works.

[Pavulon]

41. Sorry, you dont have a right to know everything.

this is the reality of the world. The world operates on lies, governments world wide lie to conduct business. This has been the case since the dawn of time.

I signed the same paperwork bradley did and it was quite clear. Reality is you dont want everything you have done or will do in public domain.

This will just end up costing time and money to fix.

Bradley should hang but that is not a realistic option, so he can serve hard time. Not like he is the first person to spy.

[Pale Blue Dot]

44. Wow.

Opinions like this lead to fascism. In fact, we may already be there.

[Pavulon]

47. Please educate yourself.

You dont get to participate in the START treaty. You dont need to know how the w88 warhead xray lenses works.

Every single western democracy classifies information. Every single one punishes people who steal that information.

The world does not work on the all information wants to be free hacker ethos.

[subsuelo]

78. Maybe in your old, backwards world.

The rest of us would like to move forward.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

83. We may not get to participate in the START treaty, but maybe

it's time we did. Not have some clown from Arizona hold up the fate of the world. Maybe some things are to important to leave to chance. Phone Sen. Jon Kyl 202-224-4521 and tell him you think he is a traitor to play with the future of our world for holding up a vote in the senate on the START treaty.

[Pavulon]

94. yay representative democracy, majority rules equal california gay marriage laws

the system does not allow everyone to make law.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

117. So you like the system just the way it is ?

[Pavulon]

121. Compared to that of China sure.

the system is similar to that used by every western nation. You think of a better one and let me know.

[kgnu_fan]

56. I suggest not waste your time.

[Hamlette]

84. opinions like that do not lead to fascism

This is not the Pentagon Papers, there are significant and scary differences here. We are now messing with information which could be harmful to other countries without apparent good reason.

diplomacy is the still of handling affairs without arousing hostility (m-w.com). Pissing on Turkey by releasing these docs might not be the best thing to do.

Here's a question: what if these leaks harm Obama to the point Palin wins and the GOP sweeps both houses and start a war with Iran. Worth it? I doubt the papers do but we all love the leaks that harm the other side. You should at least know your motivations.

[kgnu_fan]

86. To educate people about the worthlessness of rich man's war policy, is it a good motivation?

Basically, Military Industrial Complex is making huge money off by manipulating our ally countries and enemy at the same time while we, regular citizens bleed our tax money, losing everything - healthcare, education, housing...= our true security.

[Pavulon]

98. thats like your opinion man..

do a quick search by unemployemnt broken down by degree level. the results are not surprising. You think you have a firm understanding of us policy from some docs that assange allowed you to see?

demented view.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

184. you sound like Eric Prince

[Pavulon]

192. Is he an economist on NPR?

commenting on the impact of dropping out of college.

[kgnu_fan]

112. Military Industrial Complex knows no ethics, no allegiance to a country

[Pavulon]

114. Morality is a lie. War and business by nature can be immoral

though the MIC (really people who employ us UNION labor) allegiance seems to be far more reliable than bradley mannings.

[laughingliberal]

175. +1,000,000 nm

[molly77]

139. Hamlette

If other countries do harmful and criminal acts, why shouldn't they pay the price? Poor individuals do. Or do you subscribe to the old landed gentry / serf way of thinking?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

182. oh what tangled webs we weave

[westerebus]

212. Worth it?

A look behind the curtain.

Absolutely worth it.

[molly77]

122. Pale Blue Dot

We are already there. No doubt about it. Nations all over the world are crippled from Bankster gambling debts. But the military and corporations are doing fine.Ever see MSM questioning TARP and things like oh over 2 trillion just missing from the Pentagon prior to 9/11.

BP oil spill putting the Gulf and it's inhabitants in danger is another good example of corporate controlled govt.

[Pale Blue Dot]

46. Oh, and by the way...

Looks like we do get to know everything now. Ha-ha!

[Pavulon]

48. Nope, you get to see what one guy stole.

you get a teeny tiny peek at information without context and back history. you get the illusion you know something, which is really a lie.

you get what assange wants you to see. irony at its best.

[Pale Blue Dot]

50. lol nt.

[Pavulon]

51. lack of literacy (lol?)

i am sure he has every cable and signal intercept ever taken or sent. You are going to get the entire history of the CIA and NSA from wikidump.

good luck.

[Enthusiast]

191. "You get what assange wants you to see."

Instead of what the shadow government wants us to see? We know the government is engaged in immoral, unethical actions that are against our best interests. We aren't required to like it.

[Pavulon]

197. Sure they are. Diem did not kill himself

we are busy tilting the playing field the world over.

[bemildred]

58. Well, I agree with your view of the world.

However, if expediency rules, then Wikileaks becomes a useful tool, which you can use in different ways depending on what you find expedient: dividing your enemies for example by exposing how they have lied to each other, or dividing governments you don't like by exposing the corruption of one set of politicians to their enemies. It is true that this will push governments towards either transparency or towards totalitarianism, since keeping things secret becomes a less reliable approach.

[Pavulon]

104. Again CBA, a decision was made that what he has was not worth

extraordinary methods. he is an intelligence agency with no state protection. a military target and if he peruses russia or china they will set the bar much lower. polonium is not all that rare.

[bemildred]

127. We are all ephemeral beings. nt

[molly77]

143. bemildred

I thought governments were already going toward totalitarianism without any provocation. Remember the 8 years of hell called the bush administration?

[bemildred]

150. Yes, they do do that, and I do remember Shrub. nt

[Taverner]

89. Yeah! How DARE Ellsburg release the Pentagon Papers!

How dare Woodward and Bernstein investigate the Watergate Break in!

We don't have a right to know everything


:sarcasm:

[Pavulon]

100. Raw intelligence vs prepared data. you really cant understand the difference?

come on lets not bullshit each other. You live in a representative democracy the rules are not new.

[Taverner]

102. This was all RAW data that was not meant for public consumption

One way or another

With all due respect, I think it applies

[Pavulon]

107. It was a refined product an executive briefing, not raw point of sale data.

the papers were not the same as loose cables with no context. there will be no impact, parties will deny and your tax dollars will pay for any damage directly.

[molly77]

144. The elite's excuses are wearing pretty thin.

[Pavulon]

156. Can you tell me what an "elite" is in the context of this thread?(nt)

[Taverner]

174. Simple: State Dept, Dept of Defense

[Pavulon]

193. Eveyone who works there?(nt)

[Taverner]

214. The people who make decisions like 'Let's Piss off Turkey!'

And wonder why they hate us

[Pavulon]

216. Maybe it was, turkey is fucking us what do we do? you are read in right?

so you know we were acting and not reacting? or are we back in church again, faith based posting.

[Taverner]

252. Both are, but I think governments should work with as much transparency as possible

Even in the realm of National Security

[Pavulon]

254. Mutual Exclusion. i mean how can you admit

publicly that you are paying people for information without seeing what the money is for. If we bribe Iranian port officials or technicians to get specifics on equipment used to enrich uranium to 90% that can not be public knowledge.

If we pay a snitch to tell us about safe houses in yemen should we disclose that before we are able to take action.

Please name one western power using this method. All the places people here talk about moving when they are pissed about some election loss use these methods. Germany and Italy both participate in this game.

[Taverner]

257. What???

Making no sense...

[Pavulon]

258. Intelligence activity can not be conducted in the open.

you can not negotiate with someone if they know your price points. This just fucks up diplomacy, nothing more.

[bemildred]

259. Sure you can, that's called a "full information" game, like chess. nt

[Pavulon]

261. Name one nation doing it. Diplomatic cables ( you know diplomacy)

is a negotiation and it has been compromised. assange and manning are breaking diplomatic tools. At the end of the day it has not real impact. Just apologies you and I will pay for with our paycheck deductions.

Again you can not conduct negotiations without privacy.

[Taverner]

263. Germany, Japan, Netherlands, Belgium for example

[Pavulon]

266. Germany encrypts diplomatic cables, germany did not disclose all IMF / Greece

information and they did not disclose their full diplomatic position. Try again.

EVERY ONE OF THOSE STATES USE SECURE CHANNELS.

[bemildred]

264. I just said you can, not that anybody in particular is that smart about it. nt

[Pavulon]

267. Sorry not how game thoery and economics works. You are not in church

your beliefs are not on trial. Negotiations are conducted in private. If I know your position on a deal I own you. Which is why nations try to break diplomatic cables.

Why do you thing cryptography has been used since the dawn of math.

[bemildred]

268. If you know my position in chess, and you will, I will still kick your ass. nt

[Pavulon]

270. Yep and if I know how much you are willing to pay for a widget

i will break you. Make you pay more because I broke the negotiation. Dont be childish, you know this is correct. Unless you have never bought a car, home, or haggled for something at a flea market.

Same logic on a much larger scale. People actually write books about this stuff.

[bemildred]

271. "You can't cheat an honest man." nt

[Pavulon]

272. Happens every day. You can NOT conduct negociations in full disclosure.

seems this is not sinking in. Again if i now your max price point i own you. If I dont you may be able to keep more of your money.

You do understand ALL STATES conduct diplomacy in secret.

[bemildred]

273. I understand that governments like secrecy, that does not make it smart.

You assume we are or ought to be out to trick people, to play double games, that that is necessary. Essentially you are assuming the conclusion you want, that we must cheat and lie, therefore secrecy is good so we can do it well. I disagree.

[Pavulon]

274. No I am saying game thoerists and economics departments world wide

at places like oxford and yale understand negotiations are conducted in secret. You cant play poker when all the cards are visible.

Sorry, this is a fact. And yea your position assumes both sides would be honest in a negotiation. I mean if the rabble knew the circumstance around the cuban missile crisis the outcome may have been very different.

[bemildred]

280. Right, we disagree.

You are wrong about game theory. Negotiations may be conducted in secret, they often are, but there is nothing necessary about it. Lying to your partners and getting caught can have drawbacks too, it ought to be avoided.

[Pavulon]

281. We disagree but everyone is not you partner

especially your adversaries. "we will bury you" is not a partner, right?

[bemildred]

283. Sigh. Well, I think you can carry on by yourself from here.

Glad we could keep it civil. Have a nice day.

[Taverner]

262. This was not an intelligence activity as much as it was a hidden aspect of our, and Turkey's policy

I think Americans should know what our policy is - rather than some fluffed up version of it, don't you?

[Pavulon]

265. Diplomacy is a negociation. You can not negociate without privacy.

the children information wants to be free crowd tend to flinch when its their information. If we are negotiating for an item, if I know your price points I own you.

Diplomacy requires privacy. Some 22 year old asshole stealing diplomatic cables (you know what we use to conduct diplomacy) breaks the system.

And no, you do not have a right to know everything in the diplomatic channel.

[LanternWaste]

330. Like saying that the leaked information will get someone hurt, yes?

"or are we back in church again, faith based posting..."

Like saying that the leaked information will get someone hurt, yes? It would seem that the conjecture of the consequences of the leaks are not simply limited to merely one side of this debate.

[jeff47]

279. Did it occur to you that Turkey may have acted to piss us off first?

One big problem with this leak: There's only the illusion of information.

[Taverner]

329. No there's plenty of each side screwing each other...

And yes, we should know this

[bahrbearian]

157. Its god damn liberals like Woodward and Bernstein that gave us

Carter the guy was crazy with Energy being a National Security issue, Thank God For Ronny Raygun! Seig Heil!

[Taverner]

172. Awesome Freeper Run on there!

No periods - just commas

:applause:

[laughingliberal]

218. +1,000,000 nt

[NuclearDem]

120. I've never seen this much bullshit in my life.

No, I might not have the right to know how nuclear warheads are assembled or how guidance systems work, but dammit, I have a right to know when my government is committing atrocities in Iraq or supporting terrorist groups and doing it all in my name. Manning gave us a lot of that information. If it embarrasses the US, then fuck it, I don't care, we deserved to be embarrassed for some of the shit we've done. Maybe it'll finally convince us to knock it off for good.

And yeah, I also signed the NDA, but that doesn't automatically mean people shed their conscience about what they see or hear in the secret world. Manning acted on his conscience. He's probably going to pay a hefty price for it, but the American public (hell, the world) definitely has a vested interest in a lot of that information. Our government kept it hidden from us because they thought we couldn't handle it, or that we'd stop supporting the wars because of those atrocities, or that we might be embarrassed by the international community. Don't buy into the bullshit the Pentagon is trying to sell you about "soldier's lives".

And by the way, I pretty damn definitely have a right to participate in the START treaty. I have a right to know EXACTLY what my country and Russia are going to do to decrease their nuclear stockpiles. Because, hell, it's not like it's MY world that's going to be turned into an irradiated wasteland if we don't get our nukes under control, right? No, I don't need to know how warheads are manufactured, or the guidance system details, because I don't want that information getting in the hands of a rogue state.

But giving up information about war crimes IS. NOT. the same as revealing nuclear secrets.

[Pavulon]

125. He gave it up for LULZ and because he hated the army. fuck i hated the army

and disliked a contractor who underpaid me in Idaho Falls. I never felt the need to disclose the workings of feed water pumps or 4 axis mills for LULZ or cash. But that 10 10 document was clear. You know what if I moved to china to go help them build naval reactors I would EXPECT to be shot in the face one day while checking mailbox.

You dont know SHIT. You know what you are told. He is giving up deals in place that help with things like getting tracking numbers from explosives. We do business with shitty people, how the fuck else are we going to gather info.

We have done this for decades. I can PROMISE you there will be nothing done about what he dumps other than payments to fix what he fucks up.

Your participation ENDS with a call to your representative.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

188. so you worked for what contracter? Erik is that you?

[Pavulon]

195. Xe does not hold contracts in Idaho Falls(nt)

[wordpix]

302. how about Xe's numerous other names and subcontractors, Mr. Pro-nuke??

[Pavulon]

303. umm no. xe does not employee material engineers

in ass fuck idaho. here is a bit of trivia, the navy has over 5000 reactor years of safe operation. Their reactors are operated by people under 30 (generally).

Xe probably paid better as well.

[Enthusiast]

196. "We do business with shitty people,

how the fuck else are we going to gather info?"

You mean like how Iraq was seeking quantities of yellow cake uranium? And how the WMDs are North and South and a somewhat East? That kind of info?

[Pavulon]

199. No the tracking numbers for the recent bombs on cargo jets..

and plenty of other things you will never hear about. I mean right now, how do you think we find people to kill in palistan, that info is not free.

who do you think signs the orders to kill those people. Some peon in the pentagon, right?

[laughingliberal]

219. +1 nt

[molly77]

244. Enthusiast

Fight 'em over there so we won't have to fight 'em here. If a country might be developing nuclear capabilities and has oil under their feet...bomb 'em.Fascism.

[Pavulon]

251. Or just fuck up their enrichment program.

works for me. I bet no one at the manufacturer would ever help develop code like that, ever.

[jeff47]

282. Manning did not act on his conscience

Manning wanted to show how 'cool' he was by knowing secrets.

If Manning was acting his conscience, he would have leaked specific incidents. He didn't. He leaked everything he got his hands on. And from his online conversations with the recipients of the information, it's pretty clear Manning was on a power trip.

I have a right to know EXACTLY what my country and Russia are going to do to decrease their nuclear stockpiles.

Which means you have the right to see the final treaty. Which you already do. However, the negotiations leading up to that treaty do not help. Nor do you have the right to see the assessments of the negotiators that framed our negotiation strategy. Because revealing that information publicly weakens our ability to negotiate future decreases in nuclear stockpiles.

Just because you like a tiny fraction of what was leaked does not make Manning your ally. And FYI: To date Manning's leaks have revealed no war crimes. Incidents that cause anger, yes. But no war crimes.

[molly77]

134. Pavulon

I don't have to ask the question , who's side are you on? It is evident. Truth is cleansing.

[NuclearDem]

141. I think it's pretty obvious too

War is Peace
Ignorance is Strength

[Pavulon]

148. You think the environment that allows you to express your opinion

forms out of the ether? no, it cost money and lives to form. Somalia and China are great examples, say something the state does not like, and your fucked.

[NuclearDem]

152. Again, War is Peace

I'm sorry, but I don't buy for a second that the trillions of dollars spent on war were solely responsible for giving me all my civil and constitutional rights.

[Pavulon]

159. Yep, East Germany just went away naturally

but just like a church your beliefs are yours alone.

[NuclearDem]

163. So you're willing to say that...

the SOLE reason the Eastern Bloc collapsed was because of massive defense spending? Not perestroika? Not glasnost? Not a generally fed-up population that started getting braver as Gorbachev reformed the Soviet Union? Not because of widespread demonstrations in Germany and Austria?

[Pavulon]

165. Are you willing to say none of that was related to or organized

to US money or policy? You are aware they killed people for exiting the east and invading nations in the 50's?

I bet those people were fed up right before they were murdered in the streets.

Anyone with half a brain knows it was complex.

[NuclearDem]

168. Yeah, I definitely acknowledge it was complex

And yeah, fair enough, I'll definitely acknowledge that a significant reason the Cold War ended is because we outspent the Soviets in the arms race. I just want it to be clear that defense spending wasn't the SOLE reason the Eastern Bloc collapsed. :)

[Pavulon]

173. Hey, we agree on that. The world shifted under the soviets

and the world is shifting now. we live in very dangerous times. we are overdue for a major problem.

enjoyed discussing this and have to bail to drink beer and watch football.

[NuclearDem]

178. Hey, pleasure was mine

Take care :hi:

[ronnie624]

319. Don't let that one define reality for you.

The Cold War was, in large part, manufactured by the policy makers of the US government. Declassified documents show conclusively that fascists like the Dulles brothers, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Bill Casey (CIA director for Reagan), and many others over the years, lied consistently for decades, deliberately exaggerating the threat from the USSR. US corporate and political elites profited mightily from Cold War policies, which was one of the most powerful motivators for them.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

190. that's you're fucked not "your fucked"....just saying, ...

seeing as how condescending you are both up and down thread....inferrring that several people here are in need of "educating" XE?

[Pavulon]

194. ' nazi. cute. das ist nicht gut.

[laughingliberal]

220. +1000 nt

[Pavulon]

145. Side, the side that lets people post here without being jailed for subversion

the side that reunited germany. You think the US side is angelic? everyone is dirty.

The side the DOJ that will jail manning is on, the side whose president is signing off on killing guys in pakistan who are working on killing Americans.

This is Democratic Underground and I'm pretty sure a Democratic president is carrying out the policy manning (well he was just a stupid pawn) and assange are attacking.

[NuclearDem]

149. So...you DO support attacks on Pakistan?

Just feel like spreading the Predator love, huh? Even if it's without a sovereign nation's consent?

[Pavulon]

151. You really think they did not consent?

really, you really think we dont pay to splatter those people? They lie to keep their rabble at bay.

And yep, rather than mowing the grass in afganistan I support killing the people who support the war with money and logistics, wherever they live.

But hey, stuff like that is best done in private.

[NuclearDem]

154. Except Pakistan has made it pretty damn clear to the contrary

They actually, in fact, do NOT like us attacking their provinces. It's the whole damn reason they cut off our overland route into Afghanistan.

[Pavulon]

158. Yep, a lie. They did not want manned aircraft

there. They could easily stop the drones with the f16 we sold them. Why dont they? Hmm.

Again, they allow the drones there.

[24601]

317. Sure, release all the confidential exchanges with Pakistan. The

world would be so much better if their government falls and Al Qaeda ends up with their nukes. I'm sure they never would consider using them against the US or our allies. After all, Al Qaeda is just a bunch of misunderstood boys - and everything would be fine if we just capitulated to their ideals of a world converted to their religion.

[jwirr]

208. Do you have a child that you are willing to sacrifice for a lie? I look

at my grandsons and know that the truth is necessary to keep them from being sacrificed for nothing.

[Pavulon]

209. I did my time. I hated the army (by year 3), deployed

as part of KFOR while in the NG. Fucked my life up. However I never felt the urge to disclose classified information.

The truth is not one thing, not a singular position you get to have. The truth in many things when you look at foreign policy.

This is about cash, anything bradley screws up will be corrected with the FICA line item on your paycheck. If you are retired, he will be part of the reason your cola does not increase.

We aren't taking our football and going home.

[primavera]

253. No, but that doesn't mean the public isn't entitled to know anything

Transparency and accountability are crucial to a functioning democracy. Without them, you're little better than a totalitarian state. It is therefore a straw man to suggest that Wikileaks and those sympathetic to them believe they have "a right to know everything"; the point is that the public is entitled to information when it bears on public policy appropriate for public debate. The identity of a covert operative plainly would not be an appropriate matter for public discussion, but US support of the PKK against an allied nation, that, imho, is an entirely appropriate topic for public debate.

[Pavulon]

255. Not how it works. It did not work that way in '41 and will NEVER work that way

even after the CIA's balls were cut off by the Church Commission was your position even entertained by the most fringe. It will never happen, not here, not in western europe. Big rock candy mountain stuff you are posting.

You will never see the budget for the NSA CIA operations or will you ever see every deal we use to tilt the playing field to our advantage.

You will not get the backstory of PKK support because what you know is stolen and out of context. Ask bradley manning for more info, maybe he could help.

File a FOIA request and wait 20 years.

[fascisthunter]

82. ...

[Pavulon]

108. I can play sigmund as well. I take a sliding scale to analyze posters.. its fun and fucking dumb(nt

[liberation]

233. His anger is easily explained:

He keeps taking the wrong turn when he goes to freerepublic, and always ends up getting lost. You'd assume he would have bothered to ask for directions by now, but "intelligence and common sense" are not characteristics attributable to your run of the mill authoritarian reactionary.

The previous poster is stuck in a weird ground hog day from hell: where he starts his day dressing up for his Klan rally, but always ends up surrounded by hippies singing kumbaya later in the day. So just like Bill Murray, he decided to make the best of a sucky situation and just have some fun with it trolling away. Today the feed was specially good, LOL.

[Pavulon]

234. rather than alert your poon post

I would ask you to post content. Why should a 22 year old thief dump hundreds of thousands of documents to an intelligence agency with no state?

There is the challenge, please tell let me if this person was dumping Obama policy secrets is that cool? You think this is a bush thing?

How is us policy with Turkey and Iceland going to accomplish your goal?

Please elaborate, or delete you asshole post.

[liberation]

240. Tell you what...

... I will "elaborate" right after you delete all your asshole posts in this thread (which are legion BTW). It's only fair, no?

LOL.

[Pavulon]

241. aww.. Someones butthurt

your post has no fucking content (even ignorant stupid content) and you have nothing to add other than an insult, which makes you less valuable than used toilet paper. congrats peanut.

[liberation]

245. I have no idea how exactly can be construed as me being "butt hurt"...

the simple request that you abide by the same arbitrary standards you impose on others. But whatever. Me thinks you doth projecting waaay too much. LOL.

Anyhow, either you get paid by the post, or you are still hungry from last night's dinner and are looking for more feed. I fare thee farewell again. And BTW, I have been around the block enough to know better than to engage people with agendas trying to mask them via loaded questions. Because it does not matter what I say or do, since you're attempting to establish a qualitative argument... your will always treat any response as it being wrong for it does not map with your own opinion, which in your feeble mind you equate with "fact."

Given your authoritarian leanings, your choice of avatar is doubleplus ironic though... So Cheers, and one final LOL.

[Pavulon]

246. Where can I apply to get paid

to call out people who cant answer 3 questions on the internet. I mean fuck, thats a career.

[liberation]

247. Apparently, not only you don't seem to be able to count...

... but also "either or" propositions are also a mystery.

A final cheerio... you're obviously looking for feed.

[Pavulon]

249. nom nom nom, are obama policy secrets assange fodder too?

or just shit that you think fits your political world view? There just one question.

[molly77]

131. Pavulon

Pollard is a hero? Who 'ya pulling for anyway?

[NuclearDem]

138. delete

delete, wrong message replied to

[Pavulon]

142. No he is scum like manning who has fucked us out of millions if not billion

to fix what he dumped in the open. At the end of the day, this is a money problem and will be solved with cash.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

170. why so mad that bush/cheney's lies and anti=americanism will finally be exposed?

[Pavulon]

200. Waste of money. You think we are walking off the stage like post ww1

sorry this will just cost cash to fix.

[Yeahyeah]

310. Waste of time.

[Turborama]

2. Why?

Why would Turkey help al-Qaeda in Iraq?

Why would the US help the PKK?

I'm curious about the time frame of these cables, as well...

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Real Politik

yes, it is actually that simple.

It could have ahem interesting effects with NATO. The notice that this might change the world makes sense now

[Alcibiades]

7. Kurdistan

That's the answer to both of your questions. It's complicated, but you could guess that Turkey might want to help al-Qaeda in Iraq if they thought doing so would weaken Kurdish nationalists in Iraq and Turkey, and that the US would certainly--as Seymour Hersh has already alleged--want to support any Kurdish separatist movement in Iran.

Neither of these charges is even remotely far-fetched. Both seem plausible. Both Turkey and the US have done far freakier shit.

[Turborama]

15. I heard a guy talking about the Turkey thing on Sky & he was saying it's not as bad as it sounds

He said al-Hayat had exaggerated the cable and it's apparently a complaint from a US diplomat that the Turkish government hadn't tightened their border enough, and that in turn would mean more foreign "insurgents" could get into Iraq. (paraphrased)

If these things are going to be released, we'll know exactly what it says sooner or later, but that explanation does make sense.

BTW that same guy on Sky wasn't slamming Wikileaks, he was kind of in awe of the audacity. He even bragged about his Sky article being on the Bradley Manning website: http://www.bradleymanning.org/13902/wiki-wonka-and-the-cable-factory-sky-news-blog/

[SkyDaddy7]

25. The US would help the PKK because

Turkey was helping Al-Qaeda or the other way around...Turkey was very much against the invasion because they did not want the Kurds to control any oil fields or gain independence. I feel for the Kurds as they have been shit on by everyone & should have had a chunk of land cut out for them to have a country. Turkey, Iraq & Iran all have treated the Kurds like animals so I am not surprised they are fighting back!

We might find out some really good info on this topic when these documents are released!

[Old Italia]

76. The irony is that the US has PKK listed as a terrorist organization

We are told to let the TSA grope us because the terrorists will get us but at the same time the same government is helping terrorists. Go figure.

[snagglepuss]

91. Bingo.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[molly77]

164. Snagglepuss

Interesting deduction. Brilliant too.

[Lars77]

95. The US also has the Iranian secret police listed as a terror organization

The very organization the CIA helped to build under the dictatorship of the Shah. They abducted on average about 1 person per day under his rule.

Oh well.

[molly77]

153. I am waiting for the documents to come out

proving taxes are paying mercenary corporations to fight our troops. There have been some indicators. The four Blackwater employees who were tortured and hung and started the genocide in Fallujah. Those four employees families sued Blackwater because the mission was so ridiculous. It was almost like Blackwater wanted a false flag.All the missing guns. All the missing money. No infrastructure rebuilt with billions given to Iraq.Was that money to keep the war going as well as line republican pockets?

[Pavulon]

160. Genocide, care to back that up. Is that like the cancer rate in falluja that was supposed to be 4x

that in Chernobyl?

[wordpix]

305. PKK is an enemy of Ansar al-Islam, which was/is connected with Al Qaeda

so it makes sense the US would support PKK.

In 2002 when faced with a decision to bomb an AI/Al Qaeda training camp including possibly some members who had reportedly come in from Afghanistan when the Taliban fell, Bush refused to take action and never explained his decision. My take is that weird alliances take root where oil is involved.

[BetsysGhost]

92. The time frame and collaboration

the M$M is saying there are over 2 million documents. All Classified communication. Sibel has spoken of Hastert and his ties with Turkey. Marc Grossman is very tied into Turkey.

If the time frame fits the amount of documents It sounds like Jack-Pot.

Oh and btw, I don't argue.

[ProudDad]

97. Why would the US create the Taliban?

To exploit the Earth's resources for their own use...

Follow the money...

[Pavulon]

110. Yep, that pipeline is chugging along.. The traction given to morons is the worst part of this

every mihop moron will be out saying we pulled off 911 in no time. same demo allegations and repackaged stupidity.

[Turborama]

177. No, that wasn't my question.

And the US didn't create the Taliban to exploit the Earth's resources for their own use.

[ProudDad]

202. The USAmerican Empire created the Mujahadin...

in order to have a proxy to "fight the soviets"...

Who were allegedly promoting a paradigm that would block USAmerican Imperial aims...

The main aim being the continued resource grab of 25% of the Earth's bounty for 4% of her people...

Which Mujahadin became the nucleus of the Taliban...

Blowback...

[Pavulon]

204. Can you expound on the alleged anti imperial actions the USSR was

taking against the US.

The Muj became the northern alliance, but you knew that right?

[wordpix]

306. not all became the northern alliance

[davepc]

260. It's US intrest Kurdistan be strong and viable. It's Turkies intrest it be weak and distracted.

The US want's a strong Kurdish territory in Iraq to be a stable military and economic entity in an otherwise jumbled up country and to assist in the 'war on terror'.

A strong Kurdish state (and the Kurdish region in Iraq may as well be an antonymous state) will have designs on acquiring territory in Turkey inhabited by Kurds.

To counter that the Turkish government supports groups that seek to weaken the Iraqi Kurdish state.

[Turborama]

307. Al Qaeda haven't been active in Kurdistan, AFAIK

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[catnhatnh]

3. I hope the papers show...

...how Dennis Hastert (R-Treason) "helped" Turkey AND himself to 500K.

[DJ13]

5. I wish they would start looking into politics more

That would shake things up faster than concentrating on the wars.

[Yeahyeah]

6. Turkey's always getting sandwiched.

[cliffordu]

11. Yeah, but only today and tomorrow....

:rofl:

[Ian David]

8. WikiLeaks release to show NATO ally Turkey helped Al Qaeda in Iraq

Source: RawStory and Reuters

US diplomatic cables set for imminent release by WikiLeaks will reportedly show that NATO ally Turkey aided Al Qaeda in Iraq, while the US supported the PKK, a Kurdish separatist group fighting Turkey.

The claim was made in the London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat, reports Reuters:

The next release is expected to include thousands of diplomatic cables reporting corruption allegations against politicians in Russia, Afghanistan and other Central Asian nations, sources familiar with the State Department cables held by WikiLeaks told Reuters on Wednesday.

The allegations are major enough to cause serious embarrassment for foreign governments, the sources said.




Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/wikileaks-turkey-helped-al-qaeda-iraq/

---

[Pavulon]

9. guess they aren't that secular after all..

islamist government running the show there.

[sabrina 1]

12. They are looking out for their interests. I imagine the U.;S.

knew these things, obviously they did or these documents wouldn't exist. So why did the U.S. ignore their support for Al Queda? What did the U.S. gain that was more important than Turkey supporting our supposed enemy? I imagine a lot of people will be asking that question, don't you?

Every country does what is in its own best interests. This one, eg, has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children claiming it is in our interests to do so.

If we can do whatever we want for our own selfish reasons, what objection can we possibly have when others do it?

Once you lose your moral authority which this country has because of its actions regarding these wars, your opinion really doesn't have much influence anymore. Which is why people who really care about this country have opposed these wars, the torture, the theft of resources, the setting up of puppet governments in other people's countries etc. etc.

[Pavulon]

29. Hey now you get it.

they all act in their best interest, as do we. There is no morality involved. Morality is as relevant in foreign policy as barney the dinosaur.

What you guys all miss is that id the us structure was not there, something else would be. I bet that something else would not be all nice warm and fuzzy.

Consider a world run by China or the USSR model.

Most of your posts would get you handcuffed to a chain link fence and shot in the head.

Hate the system but never consider what would fill the void. The Tommy Franks problem, once you collapse something, what takes its place.

[laughingliberal]

222. +1000 nt

[Turborama]

16. Not true

Turkey is a secular parliamentary democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Turkey

[Lars77]

26. But for how much longer?

Moderate and secular voices are finding it more and more difficult there. The current government is looking to change the constitution, which specifies that the army is to guarantee the secular state. But if the army is changing along with its citizens, it will no longer be that guarantee.

Turkey has moved more and more towards Islamic radicalism in the last few decades, and most of them know full well that EU membership is not going to happen. So why even try when they can make their own path?

[Turborama]

28. You make some good points, but we could ask the same thing about America.

How much longer before it becomes a theocracy? If the current loons that are in the Republican party ever get a president in, that's when America will start moving more and more towards "Rapture Ready" Christian radicalism.

By the way, when you say they are moving more and more towards "Islamic radicalism", what do you mean? Sharia law?

[Lars77]

32. Not sure America is comparable

The Christian right in the US has been getting their way since the 80s (edit: maybe even the 70s). The last 30 years is proof that they don't really need someone in power to influence it's politics they do that from the outside (by becoming part of the conservative revolution), in fact the separation of church and state motivates their people because they are not "part of the system". And despite what one might think of christian right, i do not think that they have a goal to overthrow the government, dismantle its institutions and create a religious dictatorship. I'm afraid i can't say the same about Turkey.

What i mean is that the Turks have been caught up in this "revival" of religious radicalism in the muslim world just like every other country. A movement that begun way before 9/11 by the way, i guess the first big manifestation of this is the Iranian revolution where a US/UK backed dictator was replaced with Islamic rule (a dictator put in place in 1953 because the democratically elected leader refused to take orders from the west). I think it has something to do with globalization. Before we were so isolated from one another, but now western imperialism is much more visible because people have access to information. This has spawned a counter-reaction that the Islamic loons have been able to tap into.

Even if the religious right in the US are completely insane, they are not fundamentally undemocratic.

[Bragi]

215. Islamic radicalism or Sharia Law?

Since you raised Sharia law in this context, do you think that "Islamic radicalism" is consistent with Sharia law, as you understand them to be?

[Turborama]

275. What is "Islamic radicalism"?

That was my question.

[Bragi]

316. I was hoping for an answer

As a Canadian, I would define a Muslim radical as any Muslim who would be uncomfortable signing on to this declaration:

http://www.canadiancouncilofimams.com/pages/EklEVVVZFkFzwZtrsi.shtml

[Turborama]

320. So was I

Thanks for the link.

[wordpix]

309. and guess what---Sharia law varies from area to area, just like radicalism does

[kgnu_fan]

31. Have you ever visited Turkey???

What is your evidence?

"Turkey has moved more and more towards Islamic radicalism in the last few decades,..."

[Lars77]

33. Yes, i have visited Turkey. nt

[kgnu_fan]

38. And what have you seen for "radicalized" islam?

[Lars77]

39. Wow, where do i begin

A religious government in power looking to change the constitution, a growth of religious nationalism (which should be a contradiction in terms in Turkey) and radicalism which is manifesting itself in demonstrations and unrest. A hardening of political discourse and an increased scepticism towards the west.

Would you like to present counter-arguments, or are you going to play 20 questions?

[kgnu_fan]

40. Governmental corruption is one thing, Religious "radicalization" is another thing.

I want to understand where you are coming from. Are you against Islam? Or are you interested in how the Turkish government corruption came to be?

[Lars77]

88. Not sure i understand your line of questioning,

I am against religion in general and religion as an ideology for government in particular. Where did you get the idea that i am against Islam in particular?

[kgnu_fan]

96. Just wondered about a "dismissive tone of voice" in your

"... and most of them know full well that EU membership is not going to happen. So why even try when they can make their own path?" part. There are lots of Turkish people who are working hard to keep secular society who are Muslims....

[Lars77]

105. My point..

was that from what i have read, many Turkish people, especially people who are religious, have no faith in the EU letting Turkey in anyway, and many of them (religious ones) don't want to. They want to align Turkey more with the middle east.

You seem very sensitive about this, i really don't know what i have said to offend you. Have i ever said there arent a lot of Turks working hard to keep society secular?

[kgnu_fan]

124. Not offended. I am sensitive to racial, cultural and religious profiling and

one-fits-all statement. Your comments felt like blanket statements about a culture and caused me to pause.

[No Elephants]

52. I may not have chosen the term "radicalism," but Turkey has moved from a nation

that tried to be secular and toward an fairly fundamental Islamic theocracy. IMO, moving toward a fundamentallist theocracy of any religion is never a good sign.

[kgnu_fan]

53. And the US was founded on democratic aspiration and yet we do have an fairly fundamental Christian

nation... pot calling kettle black????? A culture war?????

[No Elephants]

55. Please read my post without bias. It says nothing about which nation is superior and it is

religion and culture neutral.

[kgnu_fan]

57. It is difficult to be religion and culture neutral when this country is already bias to other

culture and religion. Domination and subjugation are norm and we need to speak up when this has been overlooked.

[No Elephants]

67. I criticize America plenty. However, I don't find it necessary to bash America by name every time

I post a general statement to the effect that moving toward a fundamentalist theocracy is never, IMO, a positive thing. If you don't get that that statement applies to any nation and/or any theocracy, the fault is not with the staatement I made.

And please let me know when you find a perfect nation or a nation with a perfect history.

[kgnu_fan]

68. I am more concerned about the blanket attack on Islam in this country

[No Elephants]

71. No kidding. I am concerned with all bigotry.

And I was responding to a post about Turkey. If you think every thread has to bash America, we disagree.

[snagglepuss]

106. Islam is simply an idea and all ideas deserve to be held up to debate and criticism.

[kgnu_fan]

115. Islam is a culture and its people are living beings with long history

Just making Islam "an idea" is a cause and means of de-humanization in our war against them.

[snagglepuss]

130. There is nothing dehumanizing about it. In fact what is dehumanizing

and dangerous is to not regard beliefs as ideas, as products of human imagination.

[kgnu_fan]

137. American belief is an exception?????

[snagglepuss]

146. Where have I said that?

[kgnu_fan]

229. "There is nothing dehumanizing about it" --- your word

[snagglepuss]

248. I remain puzzled by your reply. My question is where did I make any

exceptions for American beliefs.

[kgnu_fan]

70. And yes, any fundamentalism is considered to be a negative thing, I agree.

[Turborama]

77. New Zealand?

I think they'll probably be the closest you can get...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#International_rankings

I've wanted to live there for a long time but haven't got enough points (yet).

[kgnu_fan]

79. Aspiration is a good thing. Ignorance bleeds resistance to progress

Especially, attitude toward "other culture" needs frequent self-examination in this country... Unsuspected and unexamined assumption about Islam is everywhere...

[snagglepuss]

99. WTF. Where do you get "we have a fairly fundamental Christian nation"?

The US was founded on principles of the Enlightment much to the dismay of religious fanatics.

[kgnu_fan]

133. ????The American idea is revealed by America's birth as a "city on a hill,"

excerpt from The Torture Memos by Noam Chomsky
chomsky.info, May 24, 2009

<snip>
Occasionally the conflict between "what we stand for" and "what we do" has been forthrightly addressed. One distinguished scholar who undertook the task is Hans Morgenthau, a founder of realist international relations theory. In a classic study written in the glow of Camelot, Morgenthau developed the standard view that the US has a "transcendent purpose": establishing peace and freedom at home and indeed everywhere, since "the arena within which the United States must defend and promote its purpose has become world-wide." But as a scrupulous scholar, he recognized that the historical record is radically inconsistent with the "transcendent purpose" of America.

We should not, however, be misled by that discrepancy, Morgenthau advises: in his words, we should not "confound the abuse of reality with reality itself." Reality is the unachieved "national purpose" revealed by "the evidence of history as our minds reflect it." What actually happened is merely the "abuse of reality." To confound abuse of reality with reality is akin to "the error of atheism, which denies the validity of religion on similar grounds." An apt comparison.

The release of the torture memos led others to recognize the problem. In the New York Times, columnist Roger Cohen reviewed a book by British journalist Geoffrey Hodgson, who concludes that the US is "just one great, but imperfect, country among others." Cohen agrees that the evidence supports Hodgson's judgment, but regards it as fundamentally mistaken. The reason is Hodgson's failure to understand that "America was born as an idea, and so it has to carry that idea forward." The American idea is revealed by America's birth as a "city on a hill," an "inspirational notion" that resides "deep in the American psyche"; and by "the distinctive spirit of American individualism and enterprise" demonstrated in the Western expansion. Hodgson's error is that he is keeping to "the distortions of the American idea in recent decades," the "abuse of reality" in recent years.

Let us then turn to "reality itself": the "idea" of America from its earliest days.

The inspirational phrase "city on a hill" was coined by John Winthrop in 1630, borrowing from the Gospels, and outlining the glorious future of a new nation "ordained by God." One year earlier his Massachusetts Bay Colony established its Great Seal. It depicts an Indian with a scroll coming out of his mouth. On it are the words "Come over and help us." The British colonists were thus benevolent humanists, responding to the pleas of the miserable natives to be rescued from their bitter pagan fate.

<snip>

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090524.htm

[snagglepuss]

167. Have you read this piece of cut and paste? Winthrop who used the

biblical term "city on the hill" lived in the mid 17th century, a hundred years prior to the American revolution. The US Constitution is a product of the Enlightenment not Winthrop's religiousity. The framer's of the Constitution knew the dangers beliefs posed firsthand which is why they separated church and state. The fact that many people believe US exceptionalism simply reveals the propensity to attribute divine sanction to human endeavours.

The US Constitution is the product of human intelligence. The Koran is the product of human intelligence.

[kgnu_fan]

230. I have read the whole article. Do you get the point I am trying to make. Maybe not.

[snagglepuss]

250. No I do not get the point you are trying to make.

[No Elephants]

73. In theory, But the trend of late has been away from that.

[wordpix]

308. you need to consider that the Islamists are often using religion as a rouse

They can keep women "in their place" by stoning them to death for things like adultery. They can keep men fighting for land that contains oil if they're not watching TV or listening to/playing music. A lot can be accomplished by the power holders of Islamic extremism under the guise of religion that has nothing to do with religion; it has to do with male dominance and fighting for wealth/resources/OIL.

[Psephos]

10. Turkey is not an ally, and hasn't been for a long time. n/t

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll_Blind]

14. Oh the spin machine before these leaks hits the streets is always an eye opener.

Hrm, lemme think here...who could kill two birds with one stone by filling an info-hungry void with a wedge between Turkey and the United States?

:rofl:

Maybe we should wait until the documents are actually released?

PB

[Nihil]

17. So ... Turkey Helped al-Qaeda in Iraq ... and that mooslim Obama has just pardoned them for it!

Happy Thanksgiving you lot!
:hide:

[Lars77]

19. Tensions rise as WikiLeaks release nears

Source: The Age

SPECULATION last night that WikiLeaks may reveal clandestine US support for terrorism had US embassies across the globe scrambling to limit damage ahead of the latest threatened release of US government documents by the whistleblowing website.

WikiLeaks is planning to make available up to 400,000 sensitive cables from the past five years that include talks with politicians, government officials and journalists, as well as evaluations by US diplomats about their host countries.

According to the London-based Arabic-language newspaper al-Hayat, several documents show that the US had in turn been providing assistance to Turkey's Kurdish separatist movement, the PKK.

Founded in the 1970s, the PKK is listed as a terrorist organisation in Turkey, the US, the European Union and Australia.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/tensions-rise-as-wikileaks-release-nears-20101126-18apy.html

---

The US embassy my home city of Oslo has already circulated letters to major newspapers ready for publishing when the leak is online. It underlines the good relationship between the US and Norway, and deplores the leak. Part of the text: "«A solid friendship will have it's ups and downs. We have seen that in the last few days, when documents, probably downoaded from the Department of Defense, was subject to media attention" (Translation by me).


This should be interesting...

[brownsugar]

20. No wonder CIA allies in Sweden are trying to lock up Assange

They know the danger he represents to the powers-that-be.

[sabrina 1]

21. They are afraid that their whole 'war on terror' scam is about to

be revealed. The Gravy train is threatened if the people can focus and realize that the U.S. does indeed support terror, if it's advantageous to the MIC. Traitors, so many in this country and so many who have risen to the top making it impossible to prosecute them.

This was always suspected though. That the U.S. was creating unrest in Iran using the PKK to do so, in order to get support for yet another war. I people are named this time.

[Raster]

37. The "war on terror" is a complete scam. The United States CREATED the boogieman,

armed the boogieman and now bases its "nation of permanent war" on fighting the boogieman.

[Pavulon]

45. Yes, the bali bombings, uss cole, embassy attacks were all us operations

designed to provoke a war with iraq and afganistan so we can steal their oil and minerals. Oh wait, that is just crazy talk.

We invented terror, we really pulled off munich and the hijackings in the 70's. all the us.

[NuclearDem]

93. Nice blanket statement there

And way to take that completely out of context.

It's true that the US created and armed our current boogieman, Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and terrorism inside Iraq, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia. Who the hell do you think trained bin Laden in Afghanistan in the 80s? The CIA! Then when Saddam invaded Kuwait, the Coalition and the Saudis both told bin Laden to get lost when he offered to bring the mujahideen from Afghanistan to help. As a result, bin Laden went after the West and Saudi Arabia for letting Westerners in the Muslim Holy Land...and then created al-Qaeda.

So, yeah, by directly training and arming, and through criminally negligent lack of foresight, the United States created bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and our current problem with Islamic terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan.

No, no one's saying the US is responsible for enabling ALL terrorism in the world; that's just knee-jerk reactionary bullshit on your part.

[Pavulon]

118. Oh no it just lacks context, like all this info assange is presenting to you.

the irony is thick.

[NuclearDem]

123. Stop it

You deliberately took what someone said out of context so you could pull some holier-than-thou horseshit to somehow paint that person as an America Hater or something.

Or maybe it's just a boneheaded lack of knowledge on the subject on your part, but either way, it's a hint that you might just want to shut the fuck up about the topic.

And then you throw up something completely unrelated to what me or the poster you took out of context said. Proof that you, indeed, have nothing.

[Pavulon]

126. Poster is stretching.. Us created the whole thing for

the MIC to make money. I mean that sounds like it will be supported by the documents.

I have no need to shut the fuck up. <insert something that would get my post deleted>, really come on. Posting that is out of line and deserves derision.

Like I said, you are getting the assange story, you have his context, his packet.

Proof, really, yo put up a link and we can talk proof, until then this is all fucking oped. christ almighty.

[NuclearDem]

132. I wasn't even talking about the Wikileaks story

I was talking about how stuff we did in the past has come back to bite us, that we created our problems with Islamic terrorism in the Middle East, and how our seemingly neverending war over there is getting a very select group of people rich and keeping a lot of people in office because they can scare us into voting for them or giving them money.

That post of mine had NOTHING to do with the Wikileaks story. I was simply defending the poster you ridiculed.

[Pavulon]

136. Yep, we created munich, we got shot at entebbe, we are fucking up lebanon right now

sorry friend not how it works. We can start giving away free money and spread our cheeks and people will still work hard to kill us.

I dont get the whole "select group" can you elaborate on them? You mean the union labor at Boeing and ingalls shipyards.

[NuclearDem]

147. Again, you completely take it out of context

I didn't say ALL Islamic terrorism EVER is a result of the US. I'm saying our problem with al-Qaeda and Osama IS a result of our dicking around in the Middle East and training the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the 1980s, which bin Laden was a part of.

Maybe if you'd actually read what I post, things would make a lot more sense.

I can already tell which side you're on here, so I'm just gonna help you out: http://www.freerepublic.com

[Pavulon]

155. Rather than alert on your post I prefer to point out its stupidity

so you read charlie wilsons war and are now a fucking expert. Great. The norther alliance was more a part of the anti soviet era. OBL brought saudi traditional beliefs into the region and turned that against the west because he does not like the saudi state.

I mean before the muj they just LOVED us. Half this is because leaders want to concentrate power by keeping their population stupid.

I really hope he ends up in saudi. They will make life far worse for him before they kill him than the US ever could.

The cold war is far more relevant to this than US ME policy, did they cover that in Charlie Wilson's War.

[NuclearDem]

161. Yeah, I forgot Charlie Wilson's War just made up Operation Cyclone

You're right, I bow to your wisdom and logic. :rolleyes:

And yes, the Cold War was relevant--because we were dicking around in the Middle East in opposition to the Soviet Union. They're not mutually exclusive, you know.

[Pavulon]

162. Or Praying Mantis, nations "dick around" all the time

we were there for a reason. One can argue that bleeding the USSR there sped its demise. Is that a bad thing?

[NuclearDem]

166. Yes, it may very well have

And it's not even necessarily the training of the mujahideen that irks me. It's the fact that after we got our Cold War anti-Communist yahoos out of the Afghan War, we essentially left Afghanistan to rot and allowed a power vacuum which allowed the Taliban to take power. Hence, we created the very same problem we're dealing with right now in Afghanistan.

[Pavulon]

171. That was bad policy, but not responsible for the anti western

move in the MUJ. Saudi wahhabi and internal politics are. Of course Israeli relations with the US are used as a wedge.

I firmly believe Iraq was a waste and Afghanistan is not being conducted properly. The networks we are after are like the KKK, except because they are not in the US we can find and kill them with impunity. Killing goatherds pissing their life away for a false god (they all are) we should be killing the money and logistics, globally.

[NuclearDem]

176. No, it wasn't responsible for the anti-Western sentiment

We didn't have to give Osama or al-Qaeda a motive; we just gave them the thousands of trained, battle-hardened, and radicalized veterans of the Afghan War and a safe haven to settle in.

But yeah, you're right, the anti-Western Wahhabi beliefs and the complexities of Saudi politics certainly helped shape Osama's motives. Using the US presence in Saudi Arabia certainly allowed for him to draw new recruits, though.

[Raster]

119. Much of the supposed problems the United States is currently...

...encountering in the Middle East can be laid back squarely at our own feet--a combination of hubris, ignorance and good ol' fashioned American stupidity. And not to mention the efforts of the American Military/Industrial Complex in full flower. And in typical fashion, the apologists wield the "conspiracy smearist" broad brush, shellacking anything in sight. Bali? Munich? Surely you jest? No, you were probably serious.

And to my previous post in this thread: Yes, I am firmly in the MIHOP camp. I believe Dick Cheney* knew far more about the inner workings of 9/11, including preliminary planning than did Saddam Hussein. Al Que-da was and is a CIA creation. Ossama Bin Laden was on CIA payroll and a tremendous recipient of the MIC's largess. The dual wars of Iraq and Afghanistan were illegal and immoral and predicated ON LIES. The United States attacked a sovereign nation with NO TIES to Al Que-da and NO TIES to 9/11.

[Pavulon]

128. Hey, like church, you can believe what you want, reincarnation heaven with clouds

and harps, right now there is nothing to support that position. Iraq is a giant fuckup, but hey what did we get out of it? debt and nothing else. no gas no oil.

[NuclearDem]

135. So we're just going to play the ridicule the other person's beliefs game? (nt)

[Pavulon]

140. Hey beliefs are just that. Like I said lets keep faith and fact

separated. When facts support a position the hyperlink to fact is a valuable thing. Until then we can talk about who the best blues guitarist of all time was, angels on pinheads.

[Raster]

189. All he's got is ridicule. History is NOT on his side.

[laughingliberal]

201. +1

[Pavulon]

203. waiting for the MIHOP miracle..

when jeebus drops the magic documents showing bush conspiring with israel to cause 9/11.

[laughingliberal]

180. +1000 nt

[flyarm]

22. okydokey, our government is working "with" terror groups..while back at home , at our airports they

are treating good Americans "LIKE TERRORISTS"..

Lets get this straight...YOU are a ' terra..ist ' if you want to fly anywhere..or if you try to escape should the new world order boys shut down our borders for any reason...

come on ..get in line... for the newest groping on the planet..

we feel you up..

and we feel you down..

Penis rubs are aok..

Your genatila is ours for the moment..

don't dare move or we cuff you and take you away.

Don't object or we keep you here all day..

Vulva wipe and titty squeeze is done my way..

from the front and from the back, you will do as TSA say.

Now Our Presidents and government work with terror groups all over the world and they laugh at you all day!

While those in governmemt line up for the great pay!

[Poll_Blind]

213. +1 n/t

PB

[Turborama]

23. I've heard that it's anything from 2.5 to 3 million secret diplomatic cables

I wonder where they got the 400,000 from. Maybe only 20% or so of them are actually worth reading? Whatever the figure really is, that's a hell of a lot of cables.

[GliderGuider]

24. Regardless of the contents, the fact of the leak itself is going to hurt

What country now would want to give any sensitive information to representatives of the Leaky States of America?

All in all, I think this is a wonderful development. Anything that destabilizes cozy intergovernmental relations is fine by me. We couldn't ask for a bigger monkeywrench than this...

[Turborama]

27. From what I've heard, it's communications to and from from US "diplomatic missions" overseas

You know that diplomats can't say what they really think to their hosts, but these documents are going to expose exactly that. I expect there will be quite a lot of expulsions after this. Not so sure if expats living abroad will be happy if their embassies and consulates end up being closed down and/or trade relations go down the shitter. That is pure speculation about what might result from this, though.

One thing I do know, if these things date only from January last year I'm going to have my suspicions about whether or not it's one of Cheney's moles who leaked them.

[jeff47]

276. Yes, won't it be great when we get rid of those cozy relations...

...and can all interact like North Korea and the US? That will be SUPER! It'll be so great to get back to the animosity that led to WWI!

[GliderGuider]

287. Situations like WW1 and NK are predicated on secrecy.

More knowledge in always a good thing. The threat of being found out tends to keep potential criminals in check, whether they are common thieves, war criminals or criminal states.

[Pavulon]

289. once everyone is open then we can follow along. until then the rules require

negotiations (you know diplomacy) to be conducted in private. North Korea does not give two fucks about being a criminal state. Why should we be honest about using computer viruses to disrupt nuclear programs.

In other news the DOD created a new virus to attack the centrifuges in iran, they predict great success. see a problem?

[GliderGuider]

291. Rules?

In realpolitik? You're more naive than I thought you were.

The appearance of rules is always important, I grant you. That's the biggest threat of the leak IMO - it might expose the cynicism of the process.

[Pavulon]

304. diplomacy requires privacy. just like i cant get your ip, trace you back

through a stack of nortel gear (flip on the service that emails me all your phone and data traffic for fun) and then let my self into the CID and other systems your government maintains to identify you, you cant see every diplomatic activity in process.

[jeff47]

293. Friendly diplomatic relations are predicated on lying to each other.

Truly open communication would get everyone shooting at everyone else very quickly.

Your criminal analogy is very far off. There is no enforcement authority in international law from which one needs to hide.

[kgnu_fan]

321. Der Spiegel has posted a Q&A about the 'Embassy Files'

http://wlcentral.org/
Der Spiegel: Q & A: What the diplomatic cables really say

Der Spiegel has posted a Q&A about the 'Embassy Files' release. Among the details:

* Included are 251,287 cables and 8,000 diplomatic directives
* One cable dates back to 1966, but most are newer than 2004
* 9,005 documents date from the first two months of 2010
* Der Spiegel, The New York Times, The Guardian, Le Monde and El País have had access to the files and reviewed them.

None of the documents are classified 'Top Secret', but only 'Secret' at the highest clssification rating. This was also confirmed by Politico's White House correspondent Mike Allen on Twitter, quoting the US administration.

According to Der Spiegel, just over half of the cables are not subject to classification, 40.5 percent are classified as "confidential" and only six percent or 15,652 dispatches as "secret." 2.5 million U.S. employees have access to SIPRNET material, where these cables originated.

A graphical representation of the worldwide distribution of the cables appears on the Spiegel site.

Der Spiegel is expected to go live with the full edition at 22:30 Sunday, local time.

Read more

Update: Spiegel article may have been posted too early. It appears to have been taken down at the moment.

[madokie]

35. Interesting article about the web weaved when first, attempt to deceive

Morally we are bankrupt, no doubt about that.

We, because due to our inaction for so long we've allowed this to get to this point.

My, how I wish some days, I could go back to the ways of some of my ancestors, the Cherokee. I'm totally convinced that life was way more fulfilling before the Europeans arrived on these shores.

[Raster]

36. Keep those releases coming! It won't be long now...will this round of releases show that some

....clandestine organizations within the United States government have actually been aiding terrorists? Oh, goody! Leak everything! Within the next year or two, a smoking gun will be released that will CONCLUSIVELY prove that certain persons within the United States government actually aided and abetted the "terrorist acts" of September 11, 2001.

[Pavulon]

42. And the mihop people are here.

the only thing this will show is that we have our finger in lots of pies. As we have for decades.

[No Elephants]

43. SILENCE! Americans have no right to know who aids and abets their enemies.

:sarcasm:

[Pavulon]

49. you get what assange wants you to see. (nt)

[No Elephants]

54. Without Assange, I get only what Bushco wanted me to see. And?

[Pavulon]

129. You mean Manning, assange just published his stolen docs.

and you still get nothing except information from another asshole with an agenda.

[GliderGuider]

183. But we do get information.

More information is always better than less.

[jeff47]

277. Not always

It's pretty easy to construct a scenario where you only have partial information, and when you act on it you make things worse.

[GliderGuider]

285. We're humans, we only ever have partial information about anything.

Assange will give us more information than we had before - I don't think that can possibly be a bad thing. Right now governments give us a mix of half-truths, outright lies and bupkis. I'll take what Assange is offering with thanks.

[jeff47]

286. You don't quite get it

The leaks just give you more half-truths, lies and bupkis.

The leaks will give you more data. Data is not information until it is analyzed. Since the scope of the leak is rather limited, we will not have enough to turn the data into information. What we'll have is a chance to shout incendiary BS and feel superior about ourselves while we damage the closest thing we have to the "peace department".

[GliderGuider]

288. I'll take it anyway.

A little shit-stirring is always good, especially when the pot is full of shit. The world will get over having it's knickers pulled down.

[Pavulon]

290. and you will not miss the cash from your check it takes to pay off

mannings fuckups. we are not taking our football home.

[GliderGuider]

292. Sorry, I don't understand you.

Could you clarify that a bit?

[jeff47]

295. He means the way we will have to repair the damage

involves giving people lots of cash.

Me, I think the damage will not be so easily fixed, and our efforts to work towards peaceful solutions will be set back a decade or so.

[Pavulon]

297. We will be giving turkey f16's at a discount (or some such) to cover our fuckup.

the fuckup being letting info out in public, not funding pkk. You WILL pay a cash price for bradley's stupidity and assanges ego.

Right the fuck out of your check. We are not giving up on diplomacy (you know diplomatic cables were stolen) we will just pay to fix.

Other than that not a fucking thing will change.

[GliderGuider]

298. Well, not my check personally

I'm Canadian, eh?

A bit of money, a bit of embarrassment - it seems like such small beer. The fallout will likely be improved security here and there, and some dips will be taught to be more diplomatic. And the rest of us will get a scoop of schadenfreude with our apple pie.

Not sure why this carries so much charge for you personally. It's not like you wrote the cables, stole them or published them. ???

[Pavulon]

299. Its just counterproductive and would be like the CID having some kid

dump confidential data in the open. I signed the documents to get a clearance and they are very clear.

It will cost me money as the problems created by these people will have to be fixed with cash.

They are messing with diplomacy, not war fighting systems. Pretty ironic.

[jeff47]

323. Yes, your check too

Canada's biggest trading partner? The US. Since those of us in the US will have our taxes go up to pay for this leak, we won't be buying as many Canadian goods. Thus harming Canada's economy, which will show up in your paycheck.

Sure, it's a 2nd order effect, but it will have an effect.

[GliderGuider]

328. It's a price I'm glad to pay.

The game has gone too far. It's time to open a window, let some light into the room, and see if we can decide for ourselves who the good guys and bad guys are.

The mix of politicians, power and secrecy is a heady, but ultimately toxic brew. Let those of us who have to pay the price (which is social, moral and ethical as well as financial) see what we're buying. It's our right and free moral agents.

[lovuian]

59. Wasn't Turkey involved in the FBI files with Sibel Edmonds

Edmonds is now working on her PhD and acts as an advisor to the Sept. 11 families. It was just after the Sept. 11 attacks that she offered her services to the FBI as a Turkish and Middle Eastern language specialist.

But shortly after joining the bureau's Washington field office, she said she encountered sloppy work by colleagues and was told by superiors to work slower so the bureau might justify demands for a bigger budget.

"I was warned that if I were to make these issues public and take them outside the bureau I would be retaliated against and I would be fired. And exactly that's what occurred," she said.

[kgnu_fan]

60. I have been thinking about her. She has lots to tell. Maybe she gets her chance to talk?

[Turborama]

61. Israel, U.S. tense as WikiLeaks set to release classified bilateral communiques

Source: Haaretz

The United States Embassy in Tel Aviv has informed the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem that the whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks was planning on releasing hundreds of thousands of American diplomatic cables, some of which might deal with Israel-America relations.

=snip=

According to the senior Israeli official, the U.S. Embassy said that the documents were not highly classified, but the administration did not know the precise content of the cables.

"The Americans said they view the leak very seriously. They don't know when they will be released on the internet and what exactly they say, but they didn't want us to read about it in the newspapers," the official said.

The American message said that if cables from the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv were released, it could be embarrassing because they relate to relations between Israel and the United States, which are usually kept confidential, or because they involve internal correspondence between American diplomats that do not always reflect the official position of the U.S. administration. The Americans said that if there was embarrassment, it was important for Israel to know that this was not their intention.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-u-s-tense-as-wikileaks-set-to-release-classified-bilateral-communiques-1.326905

---

The article also mentions that the cables date from the past five years, that's quite a lot of recent history.

[Joanne98]

62. This is going to be GOOD! I wish he's hurry it up!

[bonzono]

63. Only evil doers need worry?

If ya ain't done no criminal
human rights atrocities,
whatcha gots to be so worried
about. Only evil doers have to
be worried bout the truth being
divulged, no?

[ellie]

64. I am looking forward to this

Stay safe WikiLeaks people!

[Joanne98]

65. US briefs UK govt about next WikiLeaks release

LONDON -- The British government says it has been briefed by the United States about an expected release of American diplomatic files by the WikiLeaks website.

Prime Minister David Cameron's spokesman, Steve Field, says the government has been told of "the likely content of these leaks" by U.S. Ambassador Louis Susman. Field declined to say Friday what Britain had been warned to expect.

The Obama administration said earlier this week that it has alerted Congress and begun notifying foreign governments that the whistle-blowing website is preparing to release the diplomatic cables, which could damage U.S. relations with friends and allies around the world.

The release is expected this weekend, although WikiLeaks has not been specific about the timing.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/26/AR2010112602317.html

[westerebus]

111. That good old AIPAC connection.

The money shot.

" The Americans said if there was embarrassment, it was important for Israel to know that this was not their intention."

Turkey. Kurds. AQ. PKK. Iraq. Iran. Afghanistan.

What possibly could go wrong with confidential cables from the US Embassy in Tel Aviv?

[Pavulon]

116. Oh boy the jew angle. You know we spy on them too right?

they spy on us too. We have a cell right next to pollard all warmed up for mr manning. They will both die florence adx.

[westerebus]

205. No. Israeli.

I can make that distinction as I'm sure others can too.

[Pavulon]

206. Like I said we spy on them, they transfer technology they shouldn't

nothing is simple. These docs will confuse lots of folks. the jewsruneverything crowd will pounce on any crumb though.

[westerebus]

210. And then some.

Didn't someone say they wanted to cut the budget?

Was Foreign aid included?

Military equipment and technology transfers within the defense budget?

Home land intelligence gathering contracts with private firms?

Contractors and advisor's reduced?

You're so right, nothing is simple.

[Pavulon]

211. egypt and jordan get benes too

billions like israel.

[westerebus]

228. And we are back to nukes.

Damage assessments. Time lines to field. Probabilities of interception. Run rates of isotope enhancement. Dispersal patterns. Research complex locations. Identities. Anomalies in field radiation through sat-links observations. Component production and requirements of fittings for sub assemblies in shielded environments. Machine tool inventory. Casting technology.

It all costs money.

Intel.

Counter-intel.

Psy-ops.

[Pavulon]

231. Yep, lots of money in that line of work.

they will get about 100billion domestic next decade for the labs. 50 billion will go to egypt, israel, and jordan. Much of that will come back to us sellers.

Though bath, groton, and ingalls do keep lots of folks employed.

[Pavulon]

113. Now fucking with the mossad is also a bad idea. Like the KGB

they set a much lower bar on assange, his family, and his conspirators than we do. small plane comments are so funny, polonium starts coming into play.

[harun]

66. If you don't do anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide? Where I have heard that...

[Celebration]

109. +1

LOL.

Not that I think everything that Wikileaks does is wonderful, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander!

[laughingliberal]

217. +1000 nt

[Turborama]

69. I've been on the fence about this one due to concerns about the time-frame but rec #30 after finding

...out that http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4629277&mesg_id=4629660">these cables go back 5 years.

My original concern was that the dates might only go back to January last year and were leaked by a mole left behind by Cheney, but that seems unlikely now.

[laughingliberal]

181. +1 nt

[Hissyspit]

72. Wikileaks: US briefs Iraq, Turkey over embassy cables according to AFP, Turkish media

Twitter Feed 11:46 a.m.

Others:


@wikileaks
WikiLeaks
NYT briefed the Whitehouse on Monday over Embassy Files: Now we see every tinpot dictator in the world briefed prior to release.
1 hour ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

@wikileaks
WikiLeaks
Sky reports US Ambassador visits Downing Street in advance of Wikileaks document release
37 minutes ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

@wikileaks
WikiLeaks
Australian Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd briefed by Hillary Clinton on Wikileaks, according to SMH
35 minutes ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

@wikileaks
WikiLeaks
Canada briefed by US Ambassador according to CBC
35 minutes ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

@wikileaks
WikiLeaks
Denmark briefed by US Ambassador on WikiLeaks according to Danish press
34 minutes ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

@wikileaks
WikiLeaks
Norway briefed by US on WikiLeaks according to NRK (state TV)
34 minutes ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

[kgnu_fan]

74. I wonder if some of Daniel Ellsberg's wish list may be included???

Daniel Ellsberg’s WikiLeaks Wishlist- Will a Patriotic Truthteller Please Leak These Documents?

Daniel Ellsberg told the Washington Post the four documents he most wishes someone would release to WikiLeaks:

1. The official U.S. “order of battle” estimates of the Taliban in Afghanistan, detailing its size, organization and geographic breakdown — in short, the total of our opponents in this war. If possible, a comparison of the estimate in December 2009 (when President Obama decided on a troop increase and new strategy) and the estimate in June or July 2010 (after six or seven months of the new strategy). We would probably see that our increased presence and activities have strengthened the Taliban, as has happened over the past three years.

2. Memos from the administration’s decision-making process between July and December 2009 on the new strategy for Afghanistan, presenting internal critiques of the McChrystal-Petraeus strategy and troop requests — similar to the November 2009 cables from Ambassador Karl W. Eikenberry that were leaked in January. In particular, memos by Vice President Biden, national security adviser Jim Jones and others; responses to the critiques; and responses to the responses. This paperwork would probably show that, like Eikenberry, other high-level internal critics of escalation made a stronger and more realistic case than its advocates, warranting congressional reexamination of the president’s policy.

3. The draft revision, known as a “memo to holders,” of the National Intelligence Estimate on Iran from November 2007. This has been held up for the past several months, apparently because it is consistent with the judgment of that NIE that Iran has not made a decision to produce nuclear weapons. In particular, the contribution to that memo by the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), since the INR has had the best track record on such matters. Plus, estimates by the INR and others of the likelihood of an Israeli attack on Iran later this summer. Such disclosures could arrest momentum toward a foreseeably disastrous U.S.-supported attack, as the same finding did in 2007.

4. The 28 or more pages on the foreknowledge or involvement of foreign governments (particularly Saudi Arabia) that were redacted from the congressional investigation of 9/11, over the protest of then-Sen. Bob Graham (D-Fla.).

On each of these matters, congressional investigation is called for. The chance of this would be greatly strengthened by leaks from insiders. Subsequent hearings could elicit testimony from the insiders who provided the information (whose identities could be made known to congressional investigators) and others who, while not willing to take on the personal risks of leaking, would be ready to testify honestly under oath if requested or subpoenaed by Congress. Leaks are essential to this process.

http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/daniel-ellsbergs-wikileaks-wishlist

[Turborama]

185. Have they got details on which "tinpot dictators" are being briefed? n/t

[Hissyspit]

75. wikileaks: UK Government has issued a "D-notice" warning to all UK news editors, asking to be briefe

Via Twittter: "UK Government has issued a 'D-notice' warning to all UK news editors, asking to be briefed on upcoming WikiLeaks stories."

[fascisthunter]

80. Well... waddaya know

[bobthedrummer]

81. Haaretz has an interesting article about the Tel Aviv cables that will be released k&r n/t

[suzanner]

85. Turkey was not onboard about Afghanistan b4 Iraq, btw

The Afghan invasion was successful but, for unknown reason, the operation was left up in the air (again) while Iraq was being ramped up by WH + media. Turkey would not cooperate for logistical access then, if I recall correctly. Also not amenable for the oil pipeline Bush asked for thru their country. Assange said he doesn't edit anything. I think most people can decipher this and reservedly make conclusions.

[kgnu_fan]

87. Yes, I remember that. Turkey would not allow US for logistical access then.

[Joanne98]

90. Sibel Edmonds was right.

Sibel Edmonds' State Secrets Privilege Gallery



Latest:

• July 2, 2009: It Ain't About Hot Dogs and Fireworks By Sibel Edmonds



• June 9, 2009: The Current Battle against State Secret Privilege By Sibel Edmonds

• May 22, 2009: Two Sides of the Same Coin: Heads-Heads By Sibel Edmonds

Original Post by BradBlog.Com

• May 5, 2009: In Congress We Trust...Not By Sibel Edmonds

Original Post by BradBlog.Com

OP-ED Series, "The Highjacking of a Nation" By Sibel Edmonds

Part 1: The Foreign Agent Factor November 15,2006

Part 2: The Auctioning of Former Statesmen & Dime a Dozen Generals November 29,2006



KILL THE MESSENGER

A Documentary on State Secrets Privilege & U.S. Whistleblowers



• April 19, 2006: PEN recognizes the write to be free

• September 2005: An Inconvenient Patriot

• August 1, 2004: Sibel Edmond’s Letter to Chairman Thomas Kean

http://www.justacitizen.com/

[kgnu_fan]

101. Thank you for the list, Yes she was right!

[ProudDad]

103. Thanks to the internet tubes...

the Genie's out of the bottle...

And there's NO putting him back in...

As Daniel Ellsburg says, it's way easy to release documents and information to the world now -- no endless hours at the "Xerox machine" required but rather minutes with a memory stick...

And it can be done completely anonymously...

Wikileaks is just the beginning -- the National Security State is NO LONGER SECURE from prying eyes...

Tough shit...and good riddance!

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BolivarianHero]

179. I guess the army was right to keep Islamists out of power at gunpoint...

Now if only they'd point those guns away from the Kurdish minority.

[laughingliberal]

186. K & R nt

[Ozymanithrax]

187. The history of this era will be dominated by three massive intelgence failures.

9/ll
The Iraq Weapons of mass Destruction
Wikileaks.

It will change the way that all nations handle classified documents.

[Turborama]

198. "US has also been briefing NGOs, alerting them to programmes that may be compromised"

"US has also been briefing NGOs, alerting them to programmes that may be compromised in this new document dump."

From this article, can't find any other reports of it though: http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2010/11/us-uk-wikileaks-d-notice-leak/

[westerebus]

207. The black helicopters?

No, we don't own them. We just ride in them.

Unmarked lear jets?

No, they're rentals.

NGO's?

No comment.

[Arctic Dave]

221. Manning is the bleach that disinfects the world of the parasites.

May there be more like him.

[Pavulon]

223. I think they found one in his luggange in london

with his phones arranged next to his body. Thats opinion, but manning is scum and would hang in most countries.

Polonium its whats for breakfast.

[Arctic Dave]

224. Don't be so angry that he has the nuts to do the right thing unlike other people.

I'm pretty sure there will be statues for him.

[Pavulon]

225. Pollard too. He will die in federal prison surrounded by people who despise him

he stole for the lulz and assange got those for him.

[Arctic Dave]

226. But he will be a hero outside the walls.

Plus, guards hate everything so being despised by them means little.

I think you will come around and want to have a beer with them. You guys might have a lot in common.

[Pavulon]

227. I hate gaga, sounds like shit. if i was going to carry out a fake CD

it would be Jimmy H, Bob Marley, some real talent. Not puffery like gaga. But maybe he is a false flag play and its all a honeypot.

[Arctic Dave]

232. Everyone hates LGG, thats why no one looks at it.

Bob Marley would get questions like, "What's your fav".

Just think what a thumb drive would do for cleaning products.

[Pavulon]

235. Typical Army Stupid

no USB drives but cd burners were a ok in a highsec room.

[jeff47]

278. No, he's not brave

He's a dick who wanted to show how 'cool' he was. How 'in the know' he was. He did not leak information because of anything that was in the information. He leaked information because it made him feel powerful.

If he was brave and found an incident worth leaking, he'd have leaked that incident. But he didn't. He leaked everything he could get his hands on. He will deservedly spend a very, very long time in prison meditating on just how 'in the know' he was.

[Arctic Dave]

325. I beg to differ.

Leaking information that gives the American people a real look in to the fiasco that is destroying out country is a heroic endeavor. I just don't think you have that type of mettle.

[molly77]

242. Manning is a hero. Only certain people who believe that

Pollard is a hero would have a problem with him. See upthread.They are the minority holding US hostage.

[Pavulon]

243. Sorry, who is the minority holding the us hostage?

please elaborate...

[Hissyspit]

236. Wikileaks: Government of Iceland has been contacted by US officials over Embassy leaks according to

Via Twitter.

[Pavulon]

237. Pretty much every one we discussed in bradley's cables is getting a hat tip

checks (apologies) will come next. Funded by that FIT line item on your check.

[kgnu_fan]

238. Overall, this thread has been very informative and good discussion, Thank you all

[pleah]

239. K&R LEAK MORE DOCUMENTS! n/t

[bemildred]

256. Always good to get your story straight.

Though I have to say I think the Turkey and Kurd issue is a distraction from no doubt more interesting stuff.

[Pavulon]

269. Hey folks, what is in diplomatic cables? Do you think diplomacy is related to those cables?

what is being compromised when diplomatic cables (used in diplomacy) is dumped.

Hey did they dump telemetry for KH (or whatever replaced it) image platforms, did they release locations of SSBN assets? no. Maybe our list of drone targets or the agreement that allows us to operate in pakistan, yemen, or a dozen other places where we can kill these people. NOPE.

They just fucked up a bunch of diplomatic processes. They did NOT impact running military systems like command and control.

Our ability to conduct WAR has not been impeded.

So how is it helpful to the administration for some 22 year old moron to disclose diplomatic cables?

Finally where do you think the monetary apologies will be coming from?

I am sure this is not a popular opinion but bet it is far closer to that of the President than some of the manning is a hero, viva assange, fight the power crowd.

[jeff47]

284. Yep. It looks like Manning's leaks made war an awful lot easier than peace. (nt)

[Hissyspit]

294. Or not. (nt)

[jeff47]

296. War doesn't require secrets

War's easy. You shoot them, they die. No secrets required. Secrets make war easier and safer for us, but your enemies are going to figure out really quickly where you are and where you're going.

Diplomacy, on the other hand, requires lots and lots of secrets. Country X will only make peace with Country Y if you agree to not support Country Z's economic policy, for example. That only works if Y and Z don't find out.

[24601]

318. Never been in the military Jeff? It shows. Perhaps a link to the

Principles of War might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_War

Let me know how you achieve Surprise in your "no secrets" world.

p.s. War is not easy unless you're the one back in the US spending all your time at the mall.

[jeff47]

322. Never read my post, didja?

Secrets make war easier and safer. Just like I said in my post above. But they are not required to wage a war. Without secrets war becomes more bloody, not impossible.

Your example, "Surprise", makes war a lot safer for the surprise-ors, and less safe for the surprise-ees. But they can both shoot at each other without surprise.

[Posteritatis]

326. Now, see, this is the kind of statement that makes people shed IQ points just by reading it.

"War doesn't require secrets."

Lordthunderingjesus.

[jeff47]

327. Try again

As I said in my post above, secrets make war safer, they do not make war impossible.

Secrets mean fewer of your people die, which is why we place a high value on secrets in war. But war can still happen even when both sides know everything about the opposing force. Sure, there will be more "charge of the light brigade" slaughters, but that won't stop war.

[wordpix]

300. unless they changed the web page, there is no information there, nothing about PKK or Turkey

[Pavulon]

301. This is all pending release. julian is building up his wad.. we know what he has

because we have his source in prison. I would bet he is talking. either way they know what manning stole, he posted it on chat logs so everyone would know how cool he was.

[Octafish]

311. US briefs allies about next WikiLeaks release

Source: Associated Press

LONDON (AP) — U.S. allies around the world have been briefed by American diplomats about an expected release of classified U.S. files by the WikiLeaks website that is likely to cause international embarrassment and could damage some nations' relations with the United States.

In Britain, Prime Minister David Cameron's spokesman, Steve Field, said Friday that the government had been told of "the likely content of these leaks" by U.S. Ambassador Louis Susman. Field declined to say what Britain had been warned to expect.

SNIP...

Italy's foreign minister, Franco Frattini, said he spoke Friday with the U.S. State Department, which told him that there would be documents regarding Italy in the leak, "but the content can't be anticipated."

SNIP...

The governments of Canada and Norway also said they had been briefed by U.S. officials. Israel's Foreign Ministry declined to comment on a report that it, too, had been informed.

SNIP...

"These revelations are harmful to the United States and our interests," U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said. "They are going to create tension in relationships between our diplomats and our friends around the world."



Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h1m1bZrBuTEtEV4iN5GnE4KzFYRg?docId=33c6c043aded4665b0f07bd74c222541

---

Bushies like to get their way, no matter who or what.

[Octafish]

312. Sorry for the dupe.

Went by the time of article and checked LBN for title...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

313. I wonder if these leaked insulting documents were from bush era?

[jeff47]

324. Does it matter?

Do you honestly think they'll say: "Oh, it's the Obama administration now. We'll just ignore those insults."

[The Doctor.]

314. Maybe if the US had not been pulling childish bullshit,

then there would be no cause for concern.

[gratuitous]

315. All our allies need to know

"Just keep ignoring those petty war crimes and meaningless crimes against humanity like you have for the past decade."