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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:20 PM
Original message
Indonesian religious unity an inspiration to world: President Obama
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 09:44 PM by Turborama
Source: AFP

JAKARTA US President Barack Obama said Wednesday Muslim-majority Indonesia's national philosophy of unity between people of different faiths and ethnic backgrounds is an inspiration to the world.

"This is the foundation of Indonesia's example to the world, and this is why Indonesia will play such an important role in the 21st century," Obama said in a speech at Indonesia's national university during a visit to Jakarta.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hoGY...



He also stated:

"But I believe that the history of both America and Indonesia gives us hope. Its a story written into our national mottos. E pluribus unum - out of many, one. Bhinneka Tunggal Ika - unity in diversity. We are two nations, which have travelled different paths. Yet our nations show that hundreds of millions who hold different beliefs can be united in freedom under one flag. And we are now building on that shared humanity - through the young people who will study in each others schools; through the entrepreneurs forging ties that can lead to prosperity; and through our embrace of fundamental democratic values and human aspirations.."


Obama praises Indonesia for democracy, development

The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Wed, 10/11/2010 9:55 AM

US President Barack Obama praised on Wednesday the progress of democracy and development in Indonesia.

Democracy and development reinforce one another in Indonesia, he said in a public lecture at the University of Indonesia.

He admitted that democracy was messy but the journey was worth trying as it would bring an open market, a free press, an accountability of government, and an open society.

Obama said prosperity without democracy was false.

From: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/11/10/obama-pra...



Full transcript of speech: http://obama-mamas.com/blog/?p=2104

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Drale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. The way I think it should be done
is the way I go about it. I really don't care about your religion, do what ever you want, but don't shove your views in my face. And that goes for all religions.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. What is the "it" you're talking about?
How to live life?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. So, why then is the administration lifting the ban on funding Kopassus?
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/9/as_obama_arrives_...

They're not a democratic institution and they target churchmen.

What is that? I don't get it.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, according to Miller, the administration thought that Kopassus had reformed enough
From your link:

"And last summer, Secretary of State GatesSecretary of Defense Gates went to Indonesia on a surprise visit, quick visit, and announced that the U.S. would engage with Kopassus. They didnt say it would be full training, but they said that enough reform had happenedsome of the officers, that had been convicted within Kopassus of killing a Papuan leader, who had been jailed briefly and then restored to the unit, were removed from the unit, though not from the military, significantly enoughand that that was enough progress to restore this last bit, and that they would focus on counterterrorism training."


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This "training" is going to be used to stifle dissent
in the same way that SOA grads in Latin American countries use their training. We never learn.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I don't know much about what's going on in Papua, but the 'stifling of descent' in the rest of Indo
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 11:26 PM by Turborama
...is aimed at terrorists.

As you must know, there has been a problem with terrorist acts of mass murder carried out by radical Islamists here and the Indonesian government has had some success at cracking down on it since the 2002 bombings in Bali.

On edit...

I saw a really good report on this on Al Jazeera English a while ago and will try and find it to share. Meanwhile, here's a report from the NYT: http://video.nytimes.com/video/2007/04/12/weekinreview/...

And the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7610192.stm

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. If you read the article at Amy's site, there doesn't seem to be
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 11:31 PM by EFerrari
very much discrimination between going after actual terrorists and going after activists.

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I did read it and it talks about Papua, not terrorists. Also, the events discussed mainly happened
before SBY became president.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Oh, and Indonesia is not South America.
Two completely different places with totally different problems. So, no, it won't be "in the same way that SOA grads in Latin American countries use their training".
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. US funding of counter insurgency is the same all over the world. n/t
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's where the difference is. President Obama is funding counter terrorism in Indonesia
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 11:51 PM by Turborama
If you think he's purposefully funding some "fight against Christian insurgents" in Papua because of what some guy said on DN you really need to learn a lot more about what's going on here. Your knowledge of what's going on in South America is not transferable all over the world.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You and I agree on stuff about 99.9371 % of the time.
We'll just have to disagree on this one. I'd be interested in your take after you see the interview. Goodman and Nairn have been covering this area for decades. They almost bought the farm in East Timor. And Amy's guest is a widow Kopassus made. So, yes, I do put a lot of stock in their reporting, that's right.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Do you think President Obama's purposefully funding a "fight against Christian insurgents" in Papua?
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:02 AM by Turborama
Because that's what you appear to be alluding to.


ETA

I agree, we mostly agree but this time we can possibly learn from each other.

I'll swap the DN interviews with this AJ English episode of 101 East: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9cQZnlnG7o
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I believe this administration will defend what they consider "American interests"
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:00 AM by EFerrari
which translates into Wall Street's interests, in Papua just as they are everywhere else, Iraq, Afghanistan, Honduras, Colombia, where ever. If that means funding the Kopassus and putting up with its impunity against domestic targets, sure. You bet. I don't like thinking that. It just seems to be the way things are being done.

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. As I said above, those docs were secret until yesterday. I credit Obama with not being like Bush...
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:09 AM by Turborama
...when it comes to human rights, especially in Indonesia.

Also, the events discussed on DN happened before SBY became president. The previous and current relationships between the military and government in Indonesia are very complicated and is not as clear cut as it is in the US

PS did you see my edit above?
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. what is "modernist" Islam?
the Aceh area, at the northern tip of Sumatra, is ruled by sharia law

the Indonesian government has found evidence of terrorist camps in the area as well

not sure if hard-core fundies are considered "modernist"

I have friends in Bandung-about 100 km east of Jakarta who tell me that Bandung is a fairly modern city and that it's not conservative at all

Jakarta is the same way

Indonesia is more moderate politically and religiously than a lot of people think
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. There's a couple of Wikipedia articles about that
Edited on Tue Nov-09-10 10:37 PM by Turborama
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

My wife's brother lived and studied in Yogyakarta and apparently that area of Java has become modernist, too. Even though it's not marked on the map that way.

Christian Science Monitor has a good article on this, too: http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2...
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
18. Baloney. Extemist Islam is altering Islam in Indonesia. Its hardly inspiring.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 12:52 AM by snagglepuss
The Colonized Mind
by Sadanand Dhume, November 2009

A beautifully written in Guernica Magazine sheds a very different light on what is happening to the the once relaxed form of Islam in Indonesia.

snip

In Java, Indonesias traditionally relaxed Islam has lost ground to an assertive new orthodoxy.


Historically, the Javanese had not confused being Muslim with being Arab. They had bent Islam to their culture rather than the other way round. In Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey, V. S. Naipaul writes: It was as if, at this far end of the world, the people of Java had taken what was most humane and liberating from the religions that had come their way, to make their own.

They had taken the best of Islam, its simple egalitarianism, its ability to infuse drab lives with dignity, without devaluing their earlier achievements. The Javanese retained their own history and architecture, their own names, their own dress and dance and music, their own rituals at birth and marriage and death, even their own conception of the afterlife. It was these, expressed in a million subtle ways in gesture and carriage and voice, that gave their civilization such a high gloss at what remained, after all, a very low level of income.

It was these that the wave of orthodox Islam that had washed over Indonesia in the last thirty-odd years threatened to extinguish.


http://www.guernicamag.com/pages/1413/the_colonized_min...









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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Careful with the stereotypes there. I live in Indonesia and find it very inspiring & hope the rest..
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 01:48 AM by Turborama
...of the world does too.

That article proves nothing. He is a Wall Street Journal hurlanist from India who has history of having a problem with Muslims and Islam. He had an experience with some students in Java (1 of 17,000 islands), so what? That doesn't mean that "Extemist Islam is altering Islam in Indonesia".

This article is a much better read: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

My wife and her family are Javanese (my 2 brothers in law are Muslim, 2 of my sisters in law converted to Christianity, 1 converted to Balinese Hinduuism and my wife converted to Christianity for marriage purposes), I have many Javanese friends and have been to Java several times. Java has not been taken over by radical Islam. Far from it.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. You haven't rebutted any of the specifics noted in the article. nt
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I rebutted what you said in your subject line. Indonesia should be seen as an inspiration.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 10:15 PM by Turborama
If you think the article says Indonesia is "hardly inspiring", I rebutted that too.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
20. CSM: Obama lauds Indonesia for religious tolerance, democratic reform
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2010/1110/O...



President Obama woke early on Wednesday to a clear Jakarta sky and hundreds of onlookers straining to get a glimpse or a photo of the man some consider an adopted son. Traffic backed up for miles around him, as commuters waited for Mr. Obama to make his first stop of the day at the expansive, white-domed Istiqlal Mosque, one of Southeast Asias largest.

The mosque, whose name means independence, sits next to a Catholic church, a symbol of the diversity and religious pluralism Muslim-majority Indonesia seeks to promote. The countrys national motto, unity in diversity, is the foundation of its example to the world, said Obama, speaking before a crowd of nearly 6,500 at Jakartas University of Indonesia.

Rather than label Indonesia a Muslim-majority democracy, as some analysts feared, Obama focused his speech on development, democracy, and religious tolerance. And to show his connection with his former hometown, he sprinkled his delivery with cultural references.

America has a stake in an Indonesia that is growing, he said, one that is shaping the global economy. But more importantly, America has a stake in the success of the Indonesian people. Those stakes will play out in a newly signed comprehensive partnership that focuses on three key themes: security; economic development; and sociocultural cooperation, such as support for educational exchanges.
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FarLeftRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. Maybe he should have ask East Timor first...
Before making such a statement...
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why? East Timor gained it's independence 11 years ago, when Suharto was kicked out & Habibie came in
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 08:02 PM by Turborama
The religious unity of today's Indonesia should be an inspiration to the world. Particularly places like Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. And an educational tool against Islamophobes in countries such as Holland, France, England and America.
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LostHighway Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-12-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Genocide is genocice
Sure, East Timor is independent, but I don't think that starving whole villages to death in a dispute that's somewhat fueled by religious differences counts as religious unity.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-12-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. When was that? Oh, that's right, when Indonesia was controlled by the Suharto military dictatorship
What, should the world judge present day France, Britain, Holland, Portugal and Spain by their actions towards the original inhabitants of the lands they invaded? What about the genocide that America was found on? Should the world judge present day America's so called "United States" based on that? What about the Stolen Generations of Australian Aborigines? Shall we judge present day Australia on that?

And about your "somewhat fueled by religious differences" comment - could you be any more vague?

I live in Indonesia and witness the religious unity here on a regular basis.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
25. More impressed would I be with this "Unity of Religion Map"
If the faith groups were not so clearly geographically separated.

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sally cat Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Exactly my thought when I saw the map. Lots of ocean separating them is the main reason there is
unity.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-12-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Only if you judge a country of 17,000+ islands & 238,000,000 people by a map
See this post for the rest of my reply: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-12-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. That might be true if you saw it as like a game of Risk. You shouldn't look at it so literally
Or the red state/blue state map of America. Those areas of islands and some of the islands themselves aren't ring fenced and exclusively populated by people following one religion, it displays the predominant religion of that area.

It's my fault for not adding the Wikipedia article that map comes from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

As you can see if you read it, the religious make up of Indonesia has a long, complicated and (I think) fascinating past.

Bali (a predominantly Hindu island) is a really good example of how, even after two mass murder attacks by radical Islamists from outside, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians etc live together peacefully.

Up until only 60 years ago Indonesia was occupied by colonialists, 11 years ago shed itself of a dictatorship and is now the world's third-largest democracy. There are occasional problems , but which other majority Muslim countries are a democracy with a constitution which guarantees the right to the freedom of religion?

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