Eerie calms grips Fallujah after gruesome killings, Bremer vows revenge

[maggrwaggr]

Bremer vows revenge? Why the fuck is a bureaucrat vowing revenge?

I'm sorry but for anybody to "vow revenge" about this attack, even though it's disgusting and horrific, is just insanely hypocritical.

The invasion of Iraq "violated the tenets of all religions, including Islam as well as the foundations of civilized society" exactly like he says.




http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1512&e=7&u=/afp/iraq_us

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AFP) - An eerie calm gripped Fallujah, a day after four US security contractors were killed in a gruesome attack in this western Iraqi town, while US overseer Paul Bremer vowed to avenge their deaths and those of five US soldiers.

"The acts we have seen (Wednesday) are despicable and inexcusable. They violate the tenets of all religions, including Islam as well as the foundations of civilized society," an angry Bremer told graduates at Bagdad's police academy.

"Their deaths will not go unpunished."
(snip)

Sounds like tit for tat for me, Bremer. If you can't stand the fire, get the FUCK out of the KITCHEN.

[Barrett808]

1. Given his track record, he will make exactly the wrong decision

And make things ever so much worse.

[keithyboy]

21. The wrong war, for the wrong reason, led by the wrong people

What happened in Fallujah was horrible, that's true. But for Americans to become so outraged and to want to just level the place as a 'final solution' is nothing short of barbaric and in-human.

Anyone ever see the pictures of black men and women hanging from trees with men and women and children looking a lot like you and me standing in a crowd that was laughing and cheering? That was less than fify years ago. Visit the African American museum or look 'lynchings' up on the Internet. My god, people, the only thing that separates these poor misled fools in Fullajah from us is a few years, lots of money, and a huge military. THINK PEOPLE. You are willing to sell your souls because you can't admit that we were wrong, led by the wrong people, to do the wrong thing? Have you no moral compass?

[saigon68]

36. They Want to Nuke the Place

These are from the Savage "weiner" Michael Savage website




Check it out

and we are sick for wanting peace. These Savage people are not human, I have more sympathy for the barbecue cooks. At least it was their relatives who were killed. Savage could on his own whip up a lynch mob

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

Check out the Amerikan Flags

[kera]

57. just a small correction

you said

My god, people, the only thing that separates these poor misled fools in Fullajah from us is a few years, lots of money, and a huge military



other things you forgot to mention

back then, the reason of the cheering was nothing more than bigotry, racism at work,

in the present situation, cheering is a sort of catharsis ,venting vent the overwhelming rage , humiliation, the cruel losses , the trauma due many nights of shock and awe, the fear, the loss of dignity through colonization , the economic hardship, the injustice of the unjustifiable aggression,

these were desperate cheering of disappear

[Pale_Rider]

46. Bremer is going native ....

... and should have his arse brought home (along with our troops)!

[cleofus1]

2. yow!

It's eerie how bremer is starting to sound like sharon!

[DenverDem]

3. bremer is starting to sound like sharon!

They get the same daily talking points fax from their Power Elite overlords.

[ck4829]

8. That's what I thought

"Bremer vows revenge"
I didn't know Bremer was the stand-in for Sharon. Where are we again, Israel or Iraq?

[Barkley]

51. Exactly! We'll be building a 'security' wall around Falljua next -- n/t

[Cocoa]

4. or Charles Bronson

[saigon68]

5. He is responsible for the chaos

The thugs he employs, are the same Tormenters the Iraqis have chosen to get even with.

And rightfully so. They are mercenaries not subject to any rules like the UCMJ. They run around in their little costumes with machine guns acting tough. Yesterday, 4 of them had their Superman's capes burned.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

6. I say give Bremer an M16 and set him loose on Fallujah.

We'll see how long Mr Hard Ass lasts. Oh I almost forgot, he should also wear a bush t shirt.

[saigon68]

9. He just might do that

It will be his goons with the M-16 A4s killing children in Fallujah and and he (the Coward) will be in his hot tub enjoying a fine Scotch and water, when the shooting starts.

He is a "contractor" himself (in a prior life) and he appears to be growing into quite a War Criminal.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

15. True indeed. eom

[tlcandie]

7. The * cabal stated that they would seek justice/revenge for 9-11

and invaded Iraq leaving Afghanistan behind. Bremer spouts nothing new IMO. The mindset of it's only horrific if it happens to US is one that seems to be very commonplace in the US it seems :/

Until the people of the world can move past revenge and doing unto others what they have done to you, it would seem we are hell-bent on destroying all who live upon Mother Earth including the blue planet herself.

[Th1onein]

10. Get the fuck out of there, you IDIOT!

And get our young men and women out too! What part of "YOU'RE NOT WELCOME" do you not understand?

[Monmartre]

56. Amen

Let the Arabs and the UN sort it out. Nation building, my foot!

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. Tough talk from wannabe JFK hair helmet

This ass struts around in $3000 suits surrounded by body armored stormtroopers and hides in a palace. Next thing he will be doing is firing a rifle from the balcony in front of a cheering crowd of "security contractors". Does he have a couple of sons too?

[saigon68]

13. No this guy is a puppet too

He serves as a lapdog for his master President Cheney.

[maggrwaggr]

26. LOL! nice!

Yeah, a real good move, using the old palaces as their headquarters. What kind of message does THAT send?

They should have bulldozed the palaces, all of them, right away.

[daleo]

12. Bremer and his ilk 'started it'

If a cycle of revenge develops between the U.S. military and the people of this city, we must remember that it was initiated by the U.S. invasion of their country. Let us not get hoodwinked by calls for revenge and accusations of barbarity. Quite simply, the warmongers must be constantly reminded that 'they started it'.

[cliss]

23. I agree, D.

Maybe the Bush Cabal had a tough time deciding what to do with the images from yesterday's horrors. On the one hand, they probably thought it was useful to display them on American TV, just to get the adrenaline pumping and Joe Average squeezes the beer can and vows revenge.

On the other hand, there is the blood-chilling truth that this War has been nothing but a failure from start to finish. The ugliness of corpses dragged through the streets would only highlight that. It would put Bush's election campaign in jeopardy and his slogan that "we're all safer now".

I see they decided on the second approach.

[havocmom]

14. "vow revenge" = "bring it on" These guys need to shut the ****up

How long before fragging starts? There has got to be some pretty perturbed military unit leaders. The suits are sure fond of playing fast and loose with the people in uniforms (sans Kevlar).

Didn't the private-army mercenaries read the fine print? War is dangerous. Invading and robbing a sovereign people tends to provoke a lot a rage. So the mercs, doing god knows what at the behest of their corporate paymasters, (and uninhibited by ROE and accountability like the real military) can run amok and when the locals object, Bremer puts a chip on his shoulder and invites a bigger fight?

I agree, give him an M16 and tell him to go head on...

Not convinced the mob attack on the mercs wasn't a LIHOP. Sure took the headlines off the Clark/Maladministration story that was not going BFEE's way. And the corporate paymasters don't strike me as too concerned about any body's well being.

[saigon68]

18. Outstanding

Paul "Vow Revenge" Bremer = Chimpanzee "Bring Em On" McShrub

Brilliant analysis of 2 psychopaths.

Its so obvious--- I over looked it.

So from here on in

Its Paul "Vow Revenge" Bremer.

[Layman]

63. An Uncivil Distraction

"Not convinced the mob attack on the mercs wasn't a LIHOP. Sure took the headlines off the Clark/Maladministration story that was not going BFEE's way. And the corporate paymasters don't strike me as too concerned about any body's well being."

And what better distraction then a good old religious race war, something the right wing has been panting for. Muslims vs.Christians Whites vs. Everyone Else. Even my French friend tells me if something like the Madrid bombing happened in Paris, what with over 6 million Arabs, France will explode in bloody xenophobia too.

And this from RUMORMILLNEWS.COM

THE FOUR KILLED IN FALLUJAH WERE
CIA CONTRACT AGENTS

I received a phone call from a source. He told me that the four men who were killed in Fallujah were working as contract agents for the CIA. Three were Navy SEALS and one was Delta Force (I think... I can't remember for sure. This is a Source I can't call back to check on facts)

I sat on this info all day yesterday and today wondering if I should post it. I was finally able to track down another man who could confirm what I had been told.

I asked him if I should post it, he said, "Hell yes!! Someone on the inside did this. Someone in DC gave them up! Post this. You've got readers inside government. If they DON't know this, then TELL THEM!!

"Not ONE of our undercover contractors is safe in IRAQ. They are being ratted out! If someone doesn't do something to expose and deal with the traitors, we are going to see MORE of this. This was NOT something that happened on the spur of the moment. These people did not just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were followed, hunted and finally slaughtered!

They knew what could happen when they volunteered. But they never planned on their own side betraying them!"

The General below promised an overwhelming response to this horror. If my sources are correct, the General needs to start looking for the responsible ones in the Pentagon, the White House and/or Langley!

Rayelan

[GeorgeGist]

16. You folks still trust the media?

Nowhere in the article does it quote Bremer as "vowing revenge" or vowing anything for that matter. But of course that's what the headliner writer wants you to believe. These bastards are tricky.

[Journeyman]

24. Third paragraph, final sentence. . .

"These murders are a painful outrage for us in the coalition but they will not derail the march toward stability and democracy in Iraq," (Bremer) said. "Their deaths will not go unpunished."

[maggrwaggr]

27. Yeah I'd call that vowing revenge, no?

nice try, Antichrist.

[David__77]

17. A lot of Iraqis who lost brothers, fathers, sisters and mothers...

and daughters and sons have made a similar vow. Perhaps some of them were among the crowd that dismembered those government agents in Fallujah.

[saigon68]

19. They are mercenaries

To align them with a government is to sully the reputation of government.

Such as "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you."

[David__77]

32. Isn't the US government responsible for their actions?

Mercenary or not, they are in cahoots with the US forces.

[whosinpower]

25. Can anyone remember?

My memory is not quite as sharp as it should be, but wasn't there a tragic event that occured in Fallujah during the invasion - and that caused the populace in that area to revolt????????? I am not talking about the invasion itself, which was bad enough - but wasn't there a catalyst event that caused the people to rise up?????? Something with the brit forces???? Does anyone recall?

[David__77]

30. A protest was fired upon by US troops, killing many.

It was soon after the occupation started. People were protesting and a crowd of thousands was fired upon by US troops.

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/043003_us_soldiers.htm

[bloom]

31. yes

i was looking up info on Fallujah the other day - and lots of stuff came up from a year ago.


Do a google...exs.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/1606113.php

[maggrwaggr]

34. then we killed a bunch of Iraqi policemen in Fallujah

by "accident".

Sweaty goggles again?

[kera]

59. I believe military shot and killed many iraqi protesting for lack of

jobs

[oasis]

20. The U.S. hires mercenaries because Rummy doesn't have enough troops from

the "Coalition of the Willing" to cover the territory.

[Jacobin]

22. Well, it worked for the Israelis...........

NOT.

These fucking morons wanted their own West Bank, and now they've got it.

[louis-t]

28. Bremer needs to get off the 'revenge' thing...

when are these people going to realize they can't bully the world. Look at the video (if you can stomach it). Do those people look like they want democracy?

[maggrwaggr]

33. "We're gonna shove Democracy down their throats with an iron fist!"

nt

[Skittles]

29. the Dallas Whoring News advocated revenge

in their editorial page. They call it "justice" but we all know what they mean.

[devinsgram]

35. Exactly, tit for tat

now it will just like Israel and Palestine.

[Dover]

37. Sounds like Sharon re: Palestinian/Israeli situation....

not a good sign.

[leftofthedial]

38. out west we have a saying

dead or alive

smoke 'em out of their holes

no hole deep enough

these idiots watched too many John Wayne (the original chickenhawk) movies.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

39. Oh please...

What do you expect Bremer to do? Let these acts go unpunished?

Going into Iraq was a mistake. But now that we're there, we need to clean the place up. That means, among other things, imprisoning or killing the thugs who have spent the last ten years torturing their fellow Iraqis, and are now trying desperately to slow any return to normalcy by bombings and murder.

It is one thing to say that going into Iraq wasn't worth it. It is quite another to be so ANTI-AMERICAN that you think brutal murders should go unpunished simply because the victims are your fellow citizens.

I wish the D.U. didn't attract these Anne-Coulters-of-the-left, people whose "only problem" with killers is that they didn't kill their political opposition. However, since it does, at least let me ask that none of you ever actually try to work on a real honest to God Democratic campaign. Because any argument you make will turn decent moderate Americans toward the Republican party.

- C.D.

[lordwhorfin]

40. Well

You *may* have opposed the invasion, but there's nothing anywhere in this situation that says I *must* condone massive, disproportionate reprisals over the death of mercenary troops.

You start down that road, you end up in Lidice.

[saigon68]

42. Ah Yes, Lidice the SS took hundreds of Czechs out and murdered them

All because the town supposedly helped 2 British agents kill the Swinely Heydrich


In a time of barbarity, Reinhard Tristan Heydrich, “the Hangman,” stood out as one of the cruelest and most brutal mass murderers in Nazi Germany. Those who worked Heydrich feared him, as did those who were unfortunate enough to be under his control




http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Heydrich.html

On May 27, 1942 at approximately 10:30 am, two Czech patriots, Jan Kubis and Josef Gabcik, parachuted from Britain into Prague, ambushed Heydrich's Mercedes and threw a bomb into the front seat. Heydrich was seriously wounded and the driver of a baker's van took him to the Bulkova hospital. He remained in critical condition for days. On May 29, Joseph Goebbels blamed Jewish terrorists for the attack, arrested 500 Berlin Jews and warned the leaders of the Jewish community that "for every Jewish act of terrorism or sedition, one hundred or one hundred fifty of the Jews in our hands will be shot." (12) He also charged a crowd of Jews in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp with conspiracy and shot them on the spot. Nazi leaders proclaimed a state of emergency and a curfew in Prague. They offered a reward of 10,000,000 crowns for the capture of Heydrich's attackers. A wave of Nazi executions swept the Czech areas and the entire villiage of Lidice was wiped out. An SS general in charge of the deportation of Jews to Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor named the operation "Operation Reinhard" after Heydrich.

Meanwhile, Heydrich's condition deteriorated and he died on June 4 from "wound infection." Himmler delivered the key address at a state funeral on June 9. Hitler recognized Heydrich at the funeral for his contribution to Nazism.

Since the war, the man who felt

[Jacobin]

41. What is so hard to understand about

Iraqis taking revenge for the killings the U.S. has done?

Why is it that Murkins think that they can go blow up countries, kill twenty or thirty thousand people, act like they are on some good will mission and then, when the "vanquished" fight back, its "Ooooooooooh me, this is atrocious and barbaric"

It has nothing to do with right or left. Its a simple fricking fact. If you attack a country, they are going to attack back. They might not buy our "good motives" crap, even as often as we invent new ones.

If seeking 'revenge' for Iraqis fighting back against the hordes who have taken over their country is now required to be a "moderate" dem, count me the fuck out. Its silliness, idiocy, naivete' and early warning signs of blithering idiocy.

(yeah, let's be like sharon. we'll take revenge)

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Monmartre]

58. The US should apologize

for all its genocide through the decades and pull out

To re-establish the transatlantic allience, to win the support of the Arab states, to take care of our people at HOME!

[Jacobin]

45. It's the Kerryization of the 2004 election

It is now completely wrong to be against blowing up any Iraqis who look at you the wrong way, particularly if you purport to be a democrat.

This country is fucked.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

66. adios

[atreides1]

48. Why Not

The US Army didn't punish the soldiers that opened fire on protesters
in Fallujah last year.

Clean the place up from what, your hero Bremer disbanded the Iraqi army before anyone could be arrested, not exactly a bright move on his part was it?

You are right about one thing, those that were killed were Americans,
but they were not there for a cause, or to "clean the place up", they were there to collect a paycheck. Not to protect our freedom, or to keep the barbaric hordes from our homes, they went to fill their pockets and to provide for their families, perhaps even for the adventure. We will never know what motivated them to put themselves into this deadly situation, maybe because they couldn't find employment here at home, considering the crappy job market.

Anyway it's those decent moderate Americans, who with the Right, gave Bush the support for the war, why because they were afraid of being called unpatriotic. And now that things are getting deadlier, they want to act as if they were not a part of the groups that supported, and want to jump over the line. But they want to do it without being reminded that they were part of the problem.

As for those four men that died, my sympathy goes out to their families, not to them. As a favorite super hero character of mine use to say to his sidekick, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it". 'Nuff Said

[ConservativeDemocrat]

49. Responses to the above

> lordwhorfin: there's nothing anywhere in this situation that says I *must* condone massive, disproportionate reprisals over the death of mercenary troops.

Granted. However I have seen nothing to indicate anything "massive or disproportionate". Nor the word "revenge". Bremer simply said that those responsible would be "punished".


> Jacobin: What is so hard to understand about Iraqis taking revenge for the killings the U.S. has done?

(Since we're using WW2 references today...) What is so hard to understand about the Germans taking revenge for the destruction, humiliation, and death following WWI? Can't you just feeeeel for the Nazis? How justified their grievances were?

Regardless of motivations, war crimes are war crimes. And people who engage in them - or even simple acts of warfare - should expect to suffer the consequences.

Does this apply to Americans too? Well, of course. But don't expect everyday Americans ("Murkins") to love you for being more upset that people who drag mutilated corpses through the street should be excused simply because they are anti-American.


> Who the FUCK are you to call me that?

Actually, I didn't specifically mention anyone, as per D.U. rules.

> And where did I say they should go "unpunished?"
You characterized the statement that war criminals "will be punished" as revenge, a pejorative term. You also sympathize with the Sunni-triangle murderers (a group largely composed of Saddam supporters).

> We invaded the country. We killed thousands of their people. We are now occupying their country! And people are SURPRISED that this shit happened?

No.

> People are acting OUTRAGED that they killed and brutalized some Americans?

Yes. It is called a WAR CRIME. Look it up. You might find the term interesting. Among other things, you don't actually have to be a U.S. soldier to engage in a war crime. People from other countries can also engage in war crimes. Isn't that fascinating?


> Heidrich was like the Bremer of Czechoslovakia......'how dare zee feelthy Eeraqis attack our glorious Nazi supermen?'

If you discount the deliberate targeted butchery of hundreds of thousands of innocent Czech civilians by Nazi death squads, the genocide (he was the original architect of the "final solution"), then I suppose you can find some similarity. For instance, both are male.


> Jacobin: It's the Kerryization of the 2004 election

BINGO!

Kerry is a Democrat. He is our nominee. He will - despite many of you people here - will be our next president. He killed enemy soldiers in Vietnam - not because he thought it was a good war - but because they were shooting at his fellow soldiers.

The U.S. makes mistakes. But defending Americans comes first.


> It is now completely wrong to be against blowing up any Iraqis who look at you the wrong way, particularly if you purport to be a democrat.

Ah yes, dragging mutilated corpses though the street is now considered to be "look at you the wrong way".

> This country is fucked.

And I'm not relying on you to reverse the situation.


> The_Casual_Observer: Sure, I'll buy you a ticket to Baghdad so that "we" "can clean the place up" OK???.

Ah yes, the "if you think taxes should be higher why don't you just give more of your own money to the government" argument.


> What utter bullshit. "thugs" "torturers" you forgot "rape rooms" didn't you? What the fuck do you know about "normalcy"?

And, like dear Anne, in your ad-hominem attack, you have forgotten to actually put in any contradictory facts, aside from an inane spelling flame.

These are the facts: the Sunni triangle is the hotbed of support for the Baathist government. They are largely composed of families who profited handsomely from Saddam's spoils system. Despite the ultra left's attempt to make this little sub-culture seem sympathetic, they showed little concern for the welfare of their fellow Iraqi citizens. They gleefully participated in the notorious security services in the country -- which actually kind of do resemble Heydrich's control.


> atreides1: Why Not
>
> The US Army didn't punish the soldiers that opened fire on protesters in Fallujah last year.

One of the reasons why terrorism is not covered under the Geneva conventions as a lawful form of warfare is that it tends to get civilians killed. When gunfire rings out near a crowd, soldiers will fire back. The gunfire doesn't even have to come from the crowd.

> Clean the place up from what, your hero Bremer disbanded the Iraqi army before anyone could be arrested, not exactly a bright move on his part was it?

Bremer isn't my "hero". Nor was he responsible for disbanding the Iraqi army. That happened before he arrived, and was decided above him. Many people consider that a mistake. I do too, but it's a far closer call than many people think. The army was a Baathist tool, controlled largely by the same people who are attacking us now. The Shiites would not have been particularly happy having the institution lying around.


> Anyway it's those decent moderate Americans, who with the Right, gave Bush the support for the war, why because they were afraid of being called unpatriotic. And now that things are getting deadlier, they want to act as if they were not a part of the groups that supported, and want to jump over the line. But they want to do it without being reminded that they were part of the problem.

Very insightful. (Except for the "afraid of being called unpatriotic part" - they were genuinely convinced by Bush and the mainstream media that Iraq was a clear threat; also the costs were underestimated).

Now here's the billion dollar question:

Which would you rather have?

1] An electorate who doesn't have their noses rubbed in how easily they were misled, and eventually votes for Kerry.
2] An electorate that is reminded of this and denigrated by people who openly sympathize with people killing Americans, and so continue to pretend to themselves that it was right?

Your choice.


> As for those four men that died, my sympathy goes out to their families, not to them. As a favorite super hero character of mine use to say to his sidekick, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it". 'Nuff Said

My sympathy goes to all the well intentioned people who got hurt or killed in this mess.

- C.D.

[maggrwaggr]

50. nobody is "sympathetic" to the people who did this

That's where you're mistaken.

The issue is hypocrisy.

It's hypocritical to get up on a moral high horse and act all outraged that a group of people who were invaded, brutalized, blown to pieces, maimed, and who are now being occupied BY US wouldn't be expected to explode in anger AT US.

The people who act all surprised by this are hypocrites.

And they have a really bad double standard.

Like "it's okay for us to blow your women and children to pieces, we were doing you a favor, don't you get it?"

Your average Iraqi probably has NO IDEA why their country was invaded. Ever think of that? You think they were watching CNN and watching Colin Powell at the UN before they were invaded? Of course not. They were watching state-run television (if they ahd televisions, which is doubtful) and next thing they knew, they were being bombed by a bunch of white people who then took over their cities and started shooting at their civilians.

It is naive to expect these people to NOT want to butcher us.

[saigon68]

52. It's going to get worse

http://www.iraqwar.ru/show_image.php?id=1131&thumb=1

[ConservativeDemocrat]

55. Are you that deliberately blind?

Let's try translating this to another situation, so maybe you can understand. Imagine if the Branch Dividians had not merely shot the ATF agents, but then dragged their bloody bodies through a street and hung them on a bridge.

Remember: the Dividians, much like the Iraqis, weren't "hurting anyone" when the ATF tried to arrest Koresh. Or at least not much.

Now you start reading a site that has the following comments:

"It will be Janet Reno's goons with the M-16 A4s killing children in Waco and and she (the Coward) will be in her hot tub enjoying a fine Scotch and water, when the shooting starts."

"I say give Reno an M16 and set her loose on the Branch Dividian Compound. We'll see how long Ms. Hard Ass lasts. Oh I almost forgot, she should also wear a Clinton t shirt."

"Reno and her ilk 'started it' If a cycle of revenge develops between the ATF and the Koresh followers, we must remember that it was initiated by the U.S. government"

"the Washington Whoring Post advocated revenge in their editorial page. They call it "bringing them to justice" but we all know what they mean."

"Heidrich was like the Janet Reno of Czechoslovakia......'how dare zee feelthy Christeeens attack our glorious Nazi supermen?'"

...and of course, not a single word of sympathy for the ATF agents killed.


We do agree. The issue is hypocrisy. However, I see more than the hypocrisy of the right. I also see the hypocrisy of the left. And that gets me angry, because people on my team are supposed to be better than that.


It is also ignorance and arrogance.

Don't look down on the Iraqis. They are by no means stupid. They are perfectly well aware of the official reasons why their country was invaded. That state-run television was always supplemented by radio and people who talked to their neighbors in other countries.

But neither are they unified. There are dozens of ethnic, religious, and political differences between them. Some hate the U.S. Others - particularly the Kurds - love us. Even the Shiites hardly speak with one voice. Although few outside Fallujah would like to see the return of the Baathists.

I don't subscribe to the theory that Bremer is worse than Saddam. The Iraqis should, as a whole, be eventually both richer and safer because of what Bush did. The reason why I objected to the war is that we Americans will be neither.

I am aware that this is a fundamentally selfish position. (Why were the Bosnians or Rwandans so much more deserving of rescue than the Shiites?) But as much as liberal hawks like Thomas Friedman prick my conscience, I still believe that the job of the American President should be to look after the welfare of the American people first.


- C.D.

[Rex]

62. You compare the Davidian Compound to Iraq? Ugh.

What part of sovereign nation do you not understand? I really expect more out of someone who professes to be on "my side". Even Edmund Burke would have seen the difference between the two. :eyes:

[maggrwaggr]

67. dead is dead. What about the five real soldiers killed the same day?

where's the outrage over that?

What about the ten thousand iraqi civilians killed during the war?

Where's the outrage over that?

What about the story that made the rounds on the news during the actual invasion? Where our soldiers were having photos taken of their smiling faces next to a burned corpse in a burned-out car?

Where's the outrage over that?

It's hypocritical to selectively be outraged. When the first bombed dropped in the "shock and awe" night, I wanted to puke. Why didn't everyone else? Where were people being burned alive and blown to pieces RIGHT THAT MOMENT ALL OVER BAHGDAD.

I've never said it's payback (I know others have), but it is to BE EXPECTED.

Personally I'm more offended by Iraqi civilians being killed -- people who are just trying to live their lives and mind their own business -- than I am about some macho ex-military mercenaries (from ANY country, doesn't matter) who have gone through of their own free volition.

[hippywife]

53. A conservative Democrat

is one that has no problem with the fact that this country went into Iraq in the first place. Just that they didn't handle it well or have an exit strategy.

A conservative Democrat is one that cares not for the thousands innocents that are killed indiscriminately to gain the capture of a single man.

A conservative Democrat is one that doesn't care that the leadership of this country has sunk to the level of the terrorist mentality.

Conservative Democrats don't give two shits for the poor and disenfranchised of the world as long as they have theirs and are doing just fine.

Conservative Democrats are the reason we have the administration we have to begin with. Too hard to tell them from the right wing.

Conservative Democrats are worthless. Zell Miller probably has use of them. I surely do not.

While I detest all killing, when mercenaries who are former military, go where they are not required to go as our current military is ordered to, know the risks, and take that crap shoot for $500 a day, they set the price on their own lives. They obviously back the administration's choices and lies because they go willingly. They know the risks and feel the money is worth it.

Those are just the facts of the situation.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

64. Arguing against straw-man isn't particularly illuminating...

...or informative.

I wouldn't dream of trying to speak for all conservative Democrats. So you certainly shouldn't. Especially when you obviously have no clue about what you're criticizing.

To wit:

> A conservative Democrat is one that cares not for the thousands innocents that are killed indiscriminately to gain the capture of a single man.

People of subtle disposition generally argue over whether destroying the Iraqi Baathist regime was worth it. On the one hand, it was a tyranny whose police services were killing an average of 20,000 people a year. Even with all the war casualties, there are likely more Iraqis alive now than there would have been if it wasn't for the invasion. (Admittedly, these wouldn't have been the same people, but still.) Nor were innocents killed indiscriminately. Thanks largely to advances in military technology done during the Clinton administration, this was the most bloodless major invasion ever.

On the other hand, there are all the costs to the U.S.: human, economic, loss of political clout, the bad precedent, the dramatic increase of Wahabist terrorism. To me, these overshadow the good deed of helping the majority of Iraqis. Especially because I don't expect the Shiites to be grateful.

No good deed goes unpunished.


> Conservative Democrats don't give two shits for the poor and disenfranchised of the world as long as they have theirs and are doing just fine.

The way to help the poor and disenfranchised of the world is to get them jobs. This means economic development. It means being both business friendly and intolerant of corruption. My friends on the far left say they want jobs, but show a thinly disguised hostility to those entities that provide them.


> Conservative Democrats are the reason we have the administration we have to begin with. Too hard to tell them from the right wing.

This actually says more about the hard left than anything. They were the ones who voted for Nader. Not us.


> Conservative Democrats are worthless. Zell Miller probably has use of them. I surely do not.

Zell Miller is certainly not my ideal of the best Democrat. He is still better than any Republican, however.


> While I detest all killing... they set the price on their own lives

While you detest all killing, when it involves Americans whose political beliefs you disagree with... well, then it's a different story. You will happily blame the victims. In this case, blame the food guards. Because that is what the murdered men did for a living: guarded shipments of food from theft.

- C.D.

[hippywife]

65. Straw man nothing.

Your own words say it all.

>People of subtle disposition generally argue over whether destroying the Iraqi Baathist regime was worth it. On the one hand, it was a tyranny whose police services were killing an average of 20,000 people a year. Even with all the war casualties, there are likely more Iraqis alive now than there would have been if it wasn't for the invasion. (Admittedly, these wouldn't have been the same people, but still.) Nor were innocents killed indiscriminately. Thanks largely to advances in military technology done during the Clinton administration, this was the most bloodless major invasion ever.<


How many times did we bomb populated areas because of intelligence saying that Saddam was somewhere he was not?

I hardly consider the indiscriminate killing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children acceptable as "collateral damage." This administration refuses to count the Iraqi casualties because, to them, these lives are inconsequential.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

Disarm Iraq? Mission Accomplished!



The reaction of the average person on the Iraqi street in this current situation speaks volumes to how they feel about the American invasion and occupation. Far from the flowers they were supposed to be throwing. Still waiting for those? Don't hold your breath. It's a little hard to get folks to realize they are being killed for their own good.

>On the other hand, there are all the costs to the U.S.: human, economic, loss of political clout, the bad precedent, the dramatic increase of Wahabist terrorism. To me, these overshadow the good deed of helping the majority of Iraqis. Especially because I don't expect the Shiites to be grateful.

No good deed goes unpunished.<


No good deed is begun with a lie and followed by jokes about said lie.
You see, that's what the conservative Dem argument always seems to omit because they don't care why we went or if it was legitimate for us to do so. Saddam is gone and that's all that matters. Saddam needed to go, no question there, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Our interests in Iraq have always revolved solely around one thing, and one thing only: her resources

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

In the first interviews following the start of the invasion, Bush and Rumsfeld in separate interviews at different times said the same thing when asked by the press how they felt things were going. The very first statement out of both of their mouths was "We've secured the southern oil fields." Gee, what was the focus of this invasion, anyway?

>The way to help the poor and disenfranchised of the world is to get them jobs. This means economic development. It means being both business friendly and intolerant of corruption. My friends on the far left say they want jobs, but show a thinly disguised hostility to those entities that provide them.<

Economic development at what cost? These multi-national corporations didn't get where they are by being very business or environmentally friendly either.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0422-09.htm

Who does one have to sell their soul to eke out a living these days? How many people need to slave for wages that barely keep their heads above poverty for CEO's that live lavish lifestyles while they claim their companies have too little to make sure that their employees can make ends meet, have healthcare and a decent pension to retire on? Conservative Dems are in bed with the Republicans on rolling back every progressive gain that has been made since FDR.

You like having unemployment insurance, social security, Medicare, and the idea of a pension to live off of in old age? Don't get too comfortable with these things if members on both sides of the aisle continue to dance to the tune the corporations are playing.

I work in my community for the betterment of it. To fill a need that many will not. My job entails touching the lives of many who have been forgotten...the elderly. Do I make alot of money? Not even close. The rewards of my job can't be measured in tangibles. I once worked in the corporate environment and had daily contact with many large American and multi-national corporations. I made nearly three times what I make now. Would I go back based on what I saw then and what I know now? Not a chance.

>This actually says more about the hard left than anything. They were the ones who voted for Nader. Not us.<

Ooops! I was wrong. There is a straw man lurking. You see, we have been voting for conservative Dems for decades as we've watched things slowly devolve. It has been my contention, and still is, that this slow de-evolution of the Dem party in it's refusal to maintain the progressive momentum that was once it's hallmark is the reason so many do not turn out at the polls in the first place.

There is such a huge number of the electorate that see no reason to turn out because there seems little difference to them between which party is in office...until now with the blatant arrogance and in-your-face bullshit of the current administration.

If the Dem party had stuck to what had once made it great instead of joining the ranks of the unconcerned, the deceitful, and greedy it would have kept the electorate energized in a way that would have made the Nader vote AND the Florida voting debacle combined inconsequential as to the outcome. The 2002 interim elections would have been quite different, as well.

In this state alone, an estimated 326,000 Dems voted for Bush in 2000. Hmmm... what group of voters could it have been that voted with the Republicans in 2000? I can assure you they weren't of the "left persuasion".

The party is bleeding at both ends and can't figure out why so the Nader vote is the biggest straw man out there.

BTW, I voted for Gore but only as an alternative to voting for Bush.


>While you detest all killing, when it involves Americans whose political beliefs you disagree with... well, then it's a different story. You will happily blame the victims. In this case, blame the food guards. Because that is what the murdered men did for a living: guarded shipments of food from theft.<

It isn't a matter of their political views. They aren't there to just guard shipments of food. Do a little reading. These men sell their lives to the highest bidder. The only "superpower" seems to feel the need to pay outside mercenaries enough that these companies can in turn pay their employees anywhere from $500 to $1000 per day while they nitpick over hazardous duty pay and bennies for people who actually enlisted in their own defense forces. With the overhead this kind of operation must have, I hate to guess how much our government is paying them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43364-2004Apr1.html

There is something a tad scary to me about ex-military who see the need to form and join these "companies." These were young men. If they are so concerned about the defense of their nation, why then are they not career military? Is it because they feel their lives are worth more money for the risk than the military is willing to pay or because they don't like having to play by the rules? Or is it both? Either prospect isn't pretty to dwell on, is it?

>Zell Miller is certainly not my ideal of the best Democrat. He is still better than any Republican, however.<

{sarcasm}Yes, someone like Zell or Lieberman who sells out their own to protect their own political ass is just so much better. {/sarcasm}

[lordwhorfin]

54. Well, if we miscalculate

our response, as the soldiers this summer did in thoroughly overracting to demonstrations in Falluja (something that fueled this incident, I'm sure), I will indeed blame Bremer. The US is no good at responding to these kinds of incidents in time of conflict.

You, I suspect, will find a way to justify it no matter what.

Sure, I hope Kerry wins. He won't. I don't really see you working for Kerry if you're conservative.

Look, be as smug and superior as you like, but it's this simple:

If the Authority overreacts in the eyes of the world community, then we've lost again, whether or not it makes you feel all happy and swaggery.

As to your point re: Kerry, he came back and denounced atrocities committed BY Americans in Vietnam. How do you feel about that? And what responses do YOU think appropriate in this case? Define your response plan.

[et in Arcadia ego...]

60. Revenge...Punishment...yadda, yadda, yadda

What's it all about Alfie? :shrug:

[Rex]

61. Viceroy vows revenge

"We will kill some people, that outta stop the violence!"

Yeah...I'm feeling it...bring it on! :crazy:

[maggrwaggr]

68. obviously we just haven't killed enough of them yet!

AS soon as we do, the violence will stop and they'll love us!